UBB.classicTM 6.5.0
quote:So apparently this group of Catholic school alumni got together at a restaurant to reminisce about the old days and after the party some subset of them violently assault and seriously injure a gay couple. Isn't the point of religious schools that they instill a moral code along with the rest of the educating they do? From the Archbishop Wood High School mission statement [PDF]:
Additional sources tell NBC10 the alleged attackers are alumni of Archbishop Wood High School. The school's assistant basketball coach resigned Wednesday after school officials confronted him over his alleged connection to the attack.
quote:At the very least there was a failure to instill these values. At worst, the values taught are actively pernicious. Archbishop Charles Chaput of Philadelphia eventually issued a statement on the incident, mostly as it related to the fact that one of the alleged assailants was a basketball coach at Archbishop Wood High School.
A moral obligation to social justice, steeped in our Catholic teachings, is necessary to make informed decisions about the social, political, and economic aspects of Christian life. The right choice will respect the individual dignity of a person while recognizing the needs of our global community.
quote:The Archbishop did not address the question of how the school failed to impart "[a] key part of a Catholic education" to such a sizable number of alumni, though it's still early to have a good answer to systematic questions like that. On the other hand, it's also possible that the alums absorbed the Archbishop's position that gays are actively harmful to society [fb] and simply acted in what they deemed an appropriate manner to address what they saw as a threat.
A key part of a Catholic education is forming students to respect the dignity of every human person whether we agree with them or not. What students do with that formation when they enter the adult world determines their own maturity and dignity, or their lack of it. Violence against anyone, simply because of who they are, is inexcusable and alien to what it means to be a Christian. A recent beating incident in Center City allegedly involved, in some way, a part-time coach at Archbishop Wood High School. After inquiries by school leadership, the coach was contacted regarding the matter and he resigned. Archbishop Wood's handling of the matter was appropriate, and I support their efforts to ensure that Catholic convictions guide the behavior of their whole school community, including their staff.
quote:I'm not sure about that. I mean, I'm sure that there are other sources of bad attitudes, but religious schools sell themselves as being an effective countermeasure against them. 'Send your kids here or they'll grow up to be immoral monsters' is the usual kind of sales pitch involved. If those kids grow up to be immoral monsters anyway, that kind of undermines the whole justification of the enterprise.
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
You probably have to spread the net a bit wider, since there are so many other sources of "bad" attitudes.
quote:Does this count as justice?
Two of the three suspects in the September 2014 attack on a gay couple in Philadelphia entered guilty pleas on Thursday morning, bringing their cases to a close after months of plea negotiations. A third suspect indicated she plans to go to trial.
Kevin Harrigan pleaded to one count each of simple assault and conspiracy. Philip Williams pleaded guilty to one count each of conspiracy and aggravated assault. They had been charged with two counts each of aggravated assault, conspiracy, simple assault, and reckless endangerment. Neither man will spend a day in jail.
quote:They are not becoming immoral monsters despite what they are taught, but because of what they are taught.
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:I'm not sure about that. I mean, I'm sure that there are other sources of bad attitudes, but religious schools sell themselves as being an effective countermeasure against them. 'Send your kids here or they'll grow up to be immoral monsters' is the usual kind of sales pitch involved. If those kids grow up to be immoral monsters anyway, that kind of undermines the whole justification of the enterprise.
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
You probably have to spread the net a bit wider, since there are so many other sources of "bad" attitudes.
quote:Of the same level of relevance and interest, nobody here is decrying the routine over-use of antibiotics in factory farms.
Originally posted by Evangeline:
It's interesting that there's no outrage on this thread about the vilifying of Christian schools based on the violent, abhorrent behaviour of a handful of people who happen to be graduates of 1 of 1000s of such establishments.
quote:So it's ok to vilify an entire religious education system if not religion on the basis of the actions of a couple of individuals?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Of the same level of relevance and interest, nobody here is decrying the routine over-use of antibiotics in factory farms.
Originally posted by Evangeline:
It's interesting that there's no outrage on this thread about the vilifying of Christian schools based on the violent, abhorrent behaviour of a handful of people who happen to be graduates of 1 of 1000s of such establishments.
quote:You'll have to point me to where I said that. Perhaps you can link to the post.
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:So it's ok to vilify an entire religious education system if not religion on the basis of the actions of a couple of individuals?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Of the same level of relevance and interest, nobody here is decrying the routine over-use of antibiotics in factory farms.
Originally posted by Evangeline:
It's interesting that there's no outrage on this thread about the vilifying of Christian schools based on the violent, abhorrent behaviour of a handful of people who happen to be graduates of 1 of 1000s of such establishments.
quote:Is that an actual statistic (only one in several thousand religious schools have a graduate who commits a hate crime*) or just a rhetorical attempt to derail any discussion of the topic? If the former, can you provide a citation?
Originally posted by Evangeline:
It's interesting that there's no outrage on this thread about the vilifying of Christian schools based on the violent, abhorrent behaviour of a handful of people who happen to be graduates of 1 of 1000s of such establishments.
quote:Is it? The mission statement you quote in support of this says nothing of the sort, but uses more muted expressions such as 'instil', 'promote', 'encourage', etc. I don't think they claim a 100% success rate.
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm sure that there are other sources of bad attitudes, but religious schools sell themselves as being an effective countermeasure against them. 'Send your kids here or they'll grow up to be immoral monsters' is the usual kind of sales pitch involved.
quote:more
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:Is that an actual statistic (only one in several thousand religious schools have a graduate who commits a hate crime*) or just a rhetorical attempt to derail any discussion of the topic? If the former, can you provide a citation?
Originally posted by Evangeline:
It's interesting that there's no outrage on this thread about the vilifying of Christian schools based on the violent, abhorrent behaviour of a handful of people who happen to be graduates of 1 of 1000s of such establishments.
Nice try but no cigar, that's a totally irrelevant question. I made no such claim. What I said was restricted to this thread in which religious schools are being vilified on the basis of THE one particular instance of violence mentioned in the OP. If you'd posted stats that showed graduates of religious schools were more likely than others to commit hate crimes, then questioning the role of religious schools in general would be fine but as it is you're drawing a correlation between the violence and religious schools which isn't justified.
In all honesty, it was the commentquote:that I found alarming. If you said that about the religious/moral instruction of any group other than Christians you'd be called to hell in an instant and accuse of hating that particular religion.
They are not becoming immoral monsters despite what they are taught, but because of what they are taught.
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*Yes, I know Pennsylvania hate crimes laws don't extend to hate crimes motivated by bias against sexual orientation, so technically the example isn't a hate crime under Pennsylvania law. I'm using the term in a rhetorical sense.
quote:That quote was mine. And I am not saying all Christian schools so teach their students. I am saying those Christian (or any religion, really) schools that do so teach are creating monsters. Why? Because when you add authority to such attitude, you increase the the likelihood and intensity of such incidents. The stronger a person's belief in that authority, the stronger the justification they feel. So a school, by saying that homosexual is harmful, contributes to such attacks.
Originally posted by Evangeline:
In all honesty, it was the commentquote:that I found alarming. If you said that about the religious/moral instruction of any group other than Christians you'd be called to hell in an instant and accuse of hating that particular religion.
They are not becoming immoral monsters despite what they are taught, but because of what they are taught.
quote:That's good, because they don't. Christian schools in Britain are usually popular and oversubscribed, but the big attraction over here is that they usually get much better exam results than the other state schools in their area, as Ricardus says. The one my daughter goes to (C of E) teaches the National Curriculum on sex education just like everyone else... well, maybe with a bit more about the moral implications of abortion or whatever than a secular school, but over here they're expected to *debate* stuff like that, not just accept whatever the teacher says.
And I am not saying all Christian schools so teach their students.
quote:I am not saying that any school is a sole source, and I would hope your argument is not that that they are an insignificant source.
Originally posted by Jane R:
And whatever values the school may be trying to teach have to compete with popular culture, peer pressure and the values taught at home. Children are not empty vessels just waiting to be filled with knowledge, and teenagers certainly aren't.
quote:If it were simply the Demon Rum to blame you'd expect the perpetrators to simply attack the first people they came across, rather than selectively targeting a gay couple.
Originally posted by Signaller:
So why no comments on their willingness to get drunk, which probably had more influence on their behaviour than what they were or were not taught in school?
quote:Being drunk doesn't make you do bad things. It lowers your inhibition and clouds your judgement. It does not turn you homophobic.
Originally posted by Signaller:
So why no comments on their willingness to get drunk, which probably had more influence on their behaviour than what they were or were not taught in school?
quote:For people like you, yes, not for everyone. Motives don't change, so if one wished to lie, hurt, boast, etc.; but sober consideration had prevented them, alcohol removes that barrier.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
* the truth is in wine
quote:Interestingly, despite being convicted of an anti-gay assault Knott claims (via her lawyers) that she's not homophobic.
Jurors convicted Knott on only four of the 10 counts she was facing. She was convicted of simple assault on Zachary Hesse, reckless endangerment on both Hesse and boyfriend Andrew Haught, and conspiracy to commit simple assault on Hesse. She was found not guilty of aggravated assault on both victims, simple assault on Haught and all but one of the conspiracy charges.
"It shows that she wasn't just standing there doing nothing," [Philadelphia Assistant District Attorney Mike] Barry said of the verdict. "The jury clearly found her guilty of everything that we said regarding her own actions: That she punched Zach Hesse, that she was creating a reckless situation."
quote:First, it wasn't Knott's words but her fists that got her in to trouble with the law. Second, I'm not sure I find this assertion of non-hate to be particularly plausible, given her willingness to back it up with violence.
[Knott's lawyer Louis] Busico said his client does not hate gay people.
"This young woman is not homophobic," he said. "There isn't a fiber of her being that is homophobic. Sadly, unfortunately, but realistically, there are times that we all use words — whether it's with a spouse, a significant other, a family member, a friend, or strangers — we all say things at times we all wish we could take back. But they don't come from the heart. They come from being reactionary."
quote:I think you're both saying exactly the same thing. Booze brings out what's inside; it doesn't create new feelings.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:For people like you, yes, not for everyone. Motives don't change, so if one wished to lie, hurt, boast, etc.; but sober consideration had prevented them, alcohol removes that barrier.
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
* the truth is in wine
Not challenging your experience, but the validity of the Latin quote as generally perceived.
quote:No shame in that.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As we cannot read minds, we shall just have to not completely agree.
quote:Which illustrates the perils of not taking plea bargains. It's always a gamble and when you lose, you lose big.
Kathryn Knott, 25, was sentenced to five to ten months in jail for her role in the attack.
A jury in December acquitted Knott of felony aggravated assault charges, but found her guilty of charges including simple assault, reckless endangerment and conspiracy. She sobbed in court after the verdict was read.
quote:Knott's own words to her victims at sentencing don't seem to show any genuine remorse:
[Beating victim Andrew] Haught also addressed the court on Monday afternoon, saying the one thing he has been unable to process is that all 15 people left him unconscious on the street.
"Not one of them even called for help," Haught told the court. "I will never forgot that everyone in that group, including Kathryn Knott, left me in the alleyway to die."
<snip>
After the violent attack, Knott's group left Haught bleeding on the side of the street and headed to Tir Na Nog, an Irish pub, for drinks.
quote:Note the use of the passive voice: "what happened to you both", not "what I did to you". Granted that speaking in public can be tricky and nerve-wracking, but she sounds like someone who's not sorry for what she did, just sorry she got caught.
"I am so sorry to what happened to you both on the night of Sept. 11, 2014," Knott said. "I ask you now for your forgiveness and I hope that you some day will be able to provide it. ... Again, I apologize to you and your families. I wish you nothing but the best."
quote:Maybe it's crass of me to point out, but the folks at Hahnemann University Hospital were the ones who already acted to "heal the wounds [of] the victims". I'm not sure there's much of anything Ms. Knott can add at this point beyond an obviously self-interested apology expressing not remorse but rather a desire to not be in the slammer any longer.
[Knott's attorney Bill] Brennan said last month that he is requesting the court consider alternatives to incarceration, contending that Knott's sentencing should be more rehabilitative and a better attempt to heal the wounds caused by the assault.
"Frankly, my client will be out in a few months either way," Brennan said. "It's to establish dialogue with the community and begin to heal the wounds with the victims, the community and the city."
quote:Which brings us back to the initial question. If it took being sentenced to jail to learn that breaking someone else's jaw and leaving them in the street to die might have a "far-reaching impact and effect", something seems to be massively wrong with whatever moral education she received, not to mention her understanding of cause and effect.
Brennan has said Knott "has learned a lot in the 18 months" between the incident and the trial, adding that the community and city could benefit from a sentence that includes community service or a public service announcement.
"She's learned that words and actions have a much more far-reaching impact and effect than she ever thought possible," Brennan said. "She learned that your life can change on a dime. I think, rather than warehouse her in jail for a few months and that be the end of it, perhaps some community service or a public service announcement might be more proactive and productive in addressing the larger issues that this case dealt with."