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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Daughter of lesbian couple denounces gay marriage
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
A woman raised by lesbian parents, who states that her mum and step mum were both good parents, has said gay marriage is fundamentally wrong. Link to essay.
Her birth parents split up when she was three because her mother no longer wished to continue pretending she was straight. The father then absented himself from his daughter's life.
The problem is obvious, the father is a bastard. Regardless of one's position on gay marriage, this is the fundamental issue. Same exact thing happens when straight people split up and form new straight relationships.
How fucked up is this woman?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The problem is obvious, the father is a bastard. Regardless of one's position on gay marriage, this is the fundamental issue.
That's not what she herself says: quote:
I loved my mom’s partner, but another mom could never have replaced the father I lost.
This story reinforces my conviction that it is a mistake to present same-sex unions as a direct equivalent to different-sex unions.
I am in favour of the law, and the church, making provision for same-sex unions, but I don't think this provision makes them identical; a lot of damage can be done by trying to pretend that they are, because that sets up a false expectation.
I am still, by and large, a natural law nut, although I try to be a compassionate one.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Surely it's relatively unusual for a child to find any step-parent, of whatever gender, to be an equal or superior replacement to the parent they have lost? I struggle to see how this problem is relevant to the debate about equal marriage.
[ 17. May 2015, 16:42: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This is an error made in some analyses of children of gay parents, that many of come from broken (straight) marriages. So the phrase 'children of gay parents' ignores such factors, and easily leads to misleading inferences, e.g. children with gay parents suffer from X. You have to track down the confounds; of course those hostile to gays may not be honest enough to do this.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I forgot to say that the most infamous study, showing such poor methodology, is the Regnerus study; no link, but easy to google.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The blogpost does not present itself as the product of research. It's one girl's perception.
Arethosemyfeet, her perception is unequivocally that she missed, not her biological parent but a father.
It's a little ironic to see how her own words are not being allowed to stand here.
Is she to be condemned for perceiving things that way? The above comments seem to reinforce her view that quote:
children of same-sex parents haven’t been given the same voice. It’s not just me. There are so many of us. Many of us are too scared to speak up and tell you about our hurt and pain, because for whatever reason it feels like you’re not listening. That you don’t want to hear. If we say we are hurting because we were raised by same-sex parents, we are either ignored or labeled a hater.
Is her voice to be discounted simply because it doesn't fit the metanarrative? If so, it would seem we've come full circle.
[ 17. May 2015, 18:44: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Forgive me for being a little suspicious of someone who allies themselves with homophobes in order to deliver her message. No doubt she believes what she says, and it may be that in her specific case she might have felt better having a father around (though I wouldn't bet against a "grass is always greener" situation here), it's the extrapolation from her own feelings to a general situation that requires, in her view, legal prohibition to enforce. I'm sure you can find children of mixed race couples who feel damaged by feeling neither part of one community or the other. In any case, the logic of her argument is to ban gay and single people raising children, and isn't actually to do with marriage at all (as, fairly obviously, her mothers can't have been legally married for much of her upbringing).
If I had to take a wild guess I'd suspect that Ms Barwick discovered her intense desire for a Father retrospectively when re-evaluating her childhood following a conversion to evangelical Christianity.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
She shouldn't be condemned for perceiving things that way, but I'm not convinced that children of divorced and remarried straight couples automatically have it much easier.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I just think she is also hurting because her biological parents split up, and she lost her father. But this can get conflated with subsequent gay parents, so that they get blamed for something prior. Of course, this also happens with straight step-parents, who can be resented for not being the biological parent.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Also, she says "My dad wasn’t a great guy, and after she left him he didn’t bother coming around anymore."
I wonder how she would feel now if she had retained a relationship with her father, and her mother's new partner was in addition to, rather than instead of, her father?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I can't work out if she is against gay marriage, or gay adoption, or if she thinks mothers should not be allowed to have a girl-friend. A lot of dubious extrapolations going on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The problem is obvious, the father is a bastard.
It didn't look that obvious to me.
Reading that essay, there wasn't much said about why the father 'absented himself'. For all we know he might have been vigorously discouraged from having contact with his daughter by the mother and the new love interest.
The environment described by the writer didn't sound very man-friendly even at the best of times.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
If I had to take a wild guess I'd suspect that Ms Barwick discovered her intense desire for a Father retrospectively when re-evaluating her childhood following a conversion to evangelical Christianity.
Is there no limit to what you are prepared to read into the blogpost in order for your metanarrative not to be challenged?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
What others have said. Her problem is the heterosexual divorce, not the lesbian marriage. Lots of kids who could have written a similar essay - not just kids of divorced parents but kids of parents who are still together as well. After all, the overwhelming majority of adult men and women still looking for mommy / daddy were raised by opposite-sex couples.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No. Her issue is lack of a male influence in her life growing up. Inasmuch as we define and play out gender roles along the biological sexes.
That's at least as valid as the contention about the hetreo divorce.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
What others have said. Her problem is the heterosexual divorce, not the lesbian marriage. Lots of kids who could have written a similar essay - not just kids of divorced parents but kids of parents who are still together as well. After all, the overwhelming majority of adult men and women still looking for mommy / daddy were raised by opposite-sex couples.
That's very sharp. It's also quite likely that she's not sure what she's missing/looking for - who is?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
If, say, someone who grew up lesbian and later became a convinced separatist activist, wrote an opinion piece in a magazine about how she wished her lesbian mother had divorced her father and brought her up in a same-sex marriage (saying two mother figures would have given her a far better role model for her life and parenting), I'd be really surprised at someone whose reaction to it would be to feel that validates questioning the very nature of heterosexual marriage being actually 'marriage' on the basis of this one person's testimony.
And when I say 'surprised'... that's er... a major euphemism. I'm trying to be nice here!
Three decades of academic research has found no adverse consequences to same sex parenting - and some people have tried really really hard to find one.
One person activist think-pieces which oppose consistent academic findings are really only good for gratifying pre-existing prejudices, no matter what issue they're about.
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
As Soror Magna said, lots of people are angry with the parents that they had, and I knew a few people who were in a total rage at conventional bourgeois marriage, and said it should be abolished.
Well, this seems a little extreme to others, but it is a valid view. But I don't think it means that conventional marriage is bad/wrong, because some people are hurt by it.
And of course, children in step-families can be furious that their parents split up - should we therefore ban divorce and remarriage?
They fuck you up, your mum and dad,
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had,
And add some extra, just for you. (Larkin).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Adverse effects does not equate to the feeling that something was missed.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
People resent their parents' divorce all the time. Why was this woman given a microphone? Because of the gay. Her feelings are her own and I do not deny them. But the story as presented is propaganda.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The problem is obvious, the father is a bastard. Regardless of one's position on gay marriage, this is the fundamental issue.
That's not what she herself says: quote:
I loved my mom’s partner, but another mom could never have replaced the father I lost.
This story reinforces my conviction that it is a mistake to present same-sex unions as a direct equivalent to different-sex unions.
No, it doesn't. It is much more likely that the stigma society has put on children of homosexual couples and children of broken marriage, that caused her anxiety.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I am still, by and large, a natural law nut, although I try to be a compassionate one.
Natural law? The same natural law which has homosexuality in the animal kingdom? Has same-sex parenting? Even farther, parthenogenesis in all female species?
That natural law?
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The problem is obvious, the father is a bastard.
It didn't look that obvious to me.
Not maintaining contact with your child makes this so.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The environment described by the writer didn't sound very man-friendly even at the best of times.
She says absolutely nothing that implies this.
[ 18. May 2015, 03:21: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's not what she herself says: quote:
I loved my mom’s partner, but another mom could never have replaced the father I lost.
This story reinforces my conviction that it is a mistake to present same-sex unions as a direct equivalent to different-sex unions.
For her words to be an argument against same-sex marriage, you have to add additional words, as follows:
quote:
I loved my mom’s partner, but another mom could never have replaced the father I lost (but another man could have replaced him just fine).
That's the necessary comparator. To show that she is arguing against the same-sex element of a same-sex blended family, it is necessary to demonstrate that an opposite-sex blended family would have been preferable.
This really isn't about letting 'her own words stand', because those words don't prove a point either way. The relevant variable has not been isolated.
[ 18. May 2015, 05:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
To clarify, my point is that unless a man would have been acceptable as a replacement for the father she lost, this daughter could be held up as evidence that second marriages shouldn't be allowed. Or step-parenting.
Which the Catholic church would perhaps be on board with, but that would be about it.
The basic problem is that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. "My step-mom was not an adequate substitute for my biological father" is perfectly fine as a thing for her to feel, but it's simply not sufficient as a matter of logic for the conclusion "same-sex marriage is bad".
[ 18. May 2015, 05:50: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To clarify, my point is that unless a man would have been acceptable as a replacement for the father she lost, this daughter could be held up as evidence that second marriages shouldn't be allowed. Or step-parenting.
Yes.
Except that I wasn't arguing that same-sex marriage shouldn't be allowed.
I think anyone going into a second marriage who assumes the experience will be the direct equivalent of a first marriage is likely to have difficulties. And I think the same applies to same-sex marriage.
Of course hetero liefelong monogamy is not a guarantee against any and all troubles, but other configurations bring their own problems with them. It seems to me to be illusory to pretend otherwise.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
If I had to take a wild guess I'd suspect that Ms Barwick discovered her intense desire for a Father retrospectively when re-evaluating her childhood following a conversion to evangelical Christianity.
Did you place money on that wild guess ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Well, there are tonnes of kids from very traditional, conservative families who decide to support gay marriage and no one gives them microphones.
Really, I don't have a problem with her feeling the way she feels, it's not a crime to feel something. My problem arises when what she says is used as propaganda by people who want to promote her position.
This 'every child has a human right to a mother and father' stuff is sentimental rubbish when actually thought out logically. Children have a human right to a safe and loving upbringing - we should strive for that before we start nitpicking about single parents and same sex couples.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To clarify, my point is that unless a man would have been acceptable as a replacement for the father she lost, this daughter could be held up as evidence that second marriages shouldn't be allowed. Or step-parenting.
Yes.
Except that I wasn't arguing that same-sex marriage shouldn't be allowed.
I think anyone going into a second marriage who assumes the experience will be the direct equivalent of a first marriage is likely to have difficulties. And I think the same applies to same-sex marriage.
Well, if your argument goes no higher than "no marriage is quite like another marriage", then that's fine, but then I really don't see the point.
In fact you seem to be running an argument that same-sex marriages as a class are somehow inherently different to heterosexual marriages as a class. And the implication is that the difference somehow matters.
So far the only difference we have is that in some same-sex marriages*, one parent will be a step-parent. And to explain that this difference matters you'll have to explain whether or not we should be eyeing all step-parent arrangements as significantly different from families where the child lives with 2 biological parents.
*The reason I say "some" is because I'm aware of cases of children being born into a same-sex marriage. For these children as they grow up, the notion that one of their parents is "not really" their parent will be met in many cases with bewilderment or outrage. This is also true of many children who never knew any other parents besides the ones they grew up with, regardless of shared DNA.
[ 18. May 2015, 08:56: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
If I had to take a wild guess I'd suspect that Ms Barwick discovered her intense desire for a Father retrospectively when re-evaluating her childhood following a conversion to evangelical Christianity.
Did you place money on that wild guess ?
Ha. "Father wound." This is exactly the kind of stuff that ex-gay ministries will tell you is the cause of you being gay.
Hands up who doesn't have a father issue of some kind?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So far the only difference we have is that in some same-sex marriages*, one parent will be a step-parent. And to explain that this difference matters you'll have to explain whether or not we should be eyeing all step-parent arrangements as significantly different from families where the child lives with 2 biological parents.
It depends what value one assigns to "significantly", but I'd say that pastorally, I probably would. There are more people involved.
Beyond that, I'm still thinking along the lines of "archetypes" as in my last foray into DH, and I haven't really developed my thinking beyond that, so anything more from me here will probably take us round in circles.
I note, however, the insistence by many here that whatever the source of this woman's problems are, they must be anything but the sex of her upbringing parents.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I note, however, the insistence by many here that whatever the source of this woman's problems are, they must be anything but the sex of her upbringing parents.
But I'm explicitly not insisting that. I'm pointing out that, as a matter of logic, she hasn't actually narrowed down her problems to that source. There are multiple possible sources, and she's fixed on one.
In addition, as others have pointed out, her anecdotal fixation is at odds with the research. That makes it less likely. Not impossible, but less likely.
[ 18. May 2015, 09:08: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
No, that's all right, I wasn't targeting you, and I agree with your statement above. What I think would be wrong would be to discount her experience merely because it doesn't square with an agenda.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
What about her agenda? Of nixing all same-sex marriages because the one she was brought up in is no longer to her satisfaction?
The glaring problem with most "why you need a father and mother" arguments, and "why you need a man and a woman in a couple" arguments, is that they swallow a camel to strain a gnat. There is such a strong focus on working out how to exclude the small number of same-sex couples that there's a tendency to forget what is being created is actually a purported description of the 90% plus of the population that is straight.
Any time someone says "you need a father to do X" in an attempt to discount lesbian parenting, it comes with a message to all straight men: if you don't do X, you're inadequate as a father - or worse still, you're inadequate as a man - even if the reason you don't do X is because your wife or someone else around is better at it or prefers it.
This was neatly illustrated a few years ago by an Australian Senator, who rhetorically asked, if a boy was raised by a lesbian couple, who would teach him how to fish or take him to his football matches? He succeeded in angering a very large number of straight women who had spent years getting up on Saturday mornings to take their sons to football matches.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Probably their husbands too, because taking children to their extracurricular activities is traditionally considered to be women's work. And any daughters who happen to be interested in football (mine isn't, thank God).
I can name three of my (female) friends who spend their Saturday mornings freezing their **** off cheering their offspring's team without stopping to think.
Sounds like this woman would have had problems in relating to any step-parent, but try convincing her of that. Interesting that it is somehow her mother's fault for being a lesbian, rather than her father's for (a) being a jerk and (b) abandoning her.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Her feelings are fine - after all, unrequited love seems to be an almost universal experience in childhood, and, some argue, an essential one, and maybe important in spiritual/religious feelings.
Blaming your parent(s), also fine, and again, probably important in effecting a separation from them, or not being overly identified with them.
But then there seems to be a 'therefore' coming in, well, yes, it's tempting to find a general solution to your own unrequited love. I can't remember who said, the catastrophe has already happened, and you can't undo it through others.
I think Tolstoy was wrong also, families are unhappy in fairly predictable ways.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Having read the piece I think the lady in question is raising a valid point at a personal level, but is wrong in going on to say no SSM.
But the point she raises chimes with some children (now adult) of marriages that ended in so-called 'civilised' divorce: the adults in the case at the time may have made themselves feel better with their nostrum about it being better for the children to have two happy parents, but they hadn't asked the children how they felt.
No child likes to feel different in a bad way: most want to be average and have the same/be the same as everyone else. Regardless of whether or not you get on with your step-parent (same sex or no) you would still prefer to have your own mum and dad. And if that's true for children of divorce, however prevalent divorce in their peer-group, then it is likely to be doubly true for children of same-sex partnerships.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Bigots love it when they can get this kind of person on message, don't they? They love it when they can find a gay person who thinks gay people are scum, a formerly successful businesswoman who has suddenly found her true calling as a housewife, a black person who says that racism isn't real and it's all the fault of PoC not getting themselves together, and so on. Be one of these people and you can get all the love you want in certain circles. Suddenly people are fascinated by what you have to say. The Daily Mail wants to write an article about you. If you become a member of a homophobic church, and you weren't particularly enamoured of your childhood, it may be easy and rewarding to fall into this kind of narrative about the world.
None of this is new. There are a lot of people in the world. Whatever opinion piece you want to run, there'll be someone in the world who has the opinion for it. There were women virulently opposed to women getting the vote. There are poor people who echo rightwing sentiments about poor people all being scum. There are immigrants who hate immigrants. There are children of gay parents who don't think that gay people should be parents.
The point is that people LOVE confirmation of their views - it makes them feel warm and fuzzy and superior. We're all guilty of this. Someone who goes against the expected views from their group is even better for confirmation. We love them and clasp them to our bosom and share their views everywhere. Incidentally, liberals do this as much as conservatives. Get one very rich person who says rich people should be taxed more and you can guarantee it'll be all over tumblr in minutes. Hate on people like your family, and you will get an incredible amount of love and attention from other people who also hate your family and want to feel justified in doing so.
I'm very conscious of this because I could be one of these people if I wanted to reap the awards of attention and affirmation. I've mentioned before that I dated women and identified as a lesbian until I was 29, and then I met a guy and married him (and we're repulsively happy). If I went to certain churches and told them this story, threw in a bit about Jesus and transformation and how hetero marriage is so much better than my previous relationships I could be one of these people. If I went further and claimed that all gay relationships are loveless shams I could appear in articles on all sorts of rightwing websites and probably give talks at churches and lap up the admiration.
I haven't done any of this, of course, because that's not what I believe and that's not how it happened and I find all of the homophobic ex-gay crap disgusting and I see how it hurts my gay friends every day of their lives. (I'm also still not straight. Really really not.) I would never do this stuff.
So I'm wary. This story fits the narrative too well. If hits the emotional buttons of people who oppose gay marriage and want confirmation from the unicorn of the Other Side to give them fuzzies. I can see why this website wanted to run it. If she loves gay people but thinks that kids need fathers, why is she writing for people who really, really don't love gay people at all? Why is she campaigning against gay marriage if the issue is about raising children? What does she think banning gay marriage is going to achieve - is that going to push people into hetero marriages? Of course not. Gay people are going to continue to have relationships and raise children even if they can't marry. What's with all the "it pains me that lesbians think men are unnecessary!" stuff? (I don't know a single lesbian who thinks than men are unnecessary. You don't have to find them sexually attractive to consider them an important part of life. Everyone should have men and women around them while they're growing up. If by some weird circumstance you have not one male relative or friend of the family then you've missed out, sure.) The whole article a mass of non sequiturs but the audience want to avoid gay marriage and the website wants to confirm their views. It makes me weary. It will be used as ammunition by people who hate LGBT people. It will do harm. These things always do.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Eliab
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# 9153
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Posted
I understand her impulse because I have a very similar one. I think it's important for a child to have a sibling of the opposite sex.
I don't mean to denigrate the experience of all-boy or all-girl families. I accept that very often, those kids turn out just fine. But I think there's a real advantage to growing up with a family member of the opposite sex of approximately (to within four years or so) your age. I certainly benefitted a great deal from having a sister. I'm not sure I would have had the same sort of positive experience of female influence had I been an only child, or had a brother instead.
I concede that I can't point to any scientific study that proves that children of mixed-sex siblinghood do better than those with same-sex siblings. All I can say is that I found it a benefit and it's a benefit that I'd wish on others.
I think I can say all that, and, while many people may disagree with me, or want to supplement my experience with that of their own, relatively few will think me an utter fuckmuppet for having such sentiments. Most of you will see my point, even if you think it's a narrow point, not one of general applicability. Most of you will understand how it is that I came to feel as I do. No one blamed me for wanting my second child to me a girl, given that my first was a boy.
However if I were to extrapolate from my sentiments and say, for example, to my wife who is proposing to invite her sister over: "Well, OK, I'll tolerate her as someone important to you, but she's not really your sister, is she? She'd only be your sister-in-the-full-sense if you were male. I don't like to redefine the word 'sister' from what it means in my experience - I think you should call her your 'same-sex-sibling' instead", then I'd be doing the same sort of thing as the woman in the OP. I'd be taking something important to me, and using it to prescribe artificial, condescending, and unkind rules for others. It would (to put it kindly) be an extrapolation from my experience that the facts and justice of the case don't support, and (to put it less kindly) I'm be acting like an utter fuckmuppet.
And yet the socialising effect of an opposite-sex sibling is certainly comparable to that of an opposite-sex parent. Somehow we make do with the same common word for brothers and sisters whether they are of the opposite or same sex to us. We can do the same with the words for parents and partners, too.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Eliab,
I will state right off that I disagree with you. But am curious as to why you think what you do. Forget studies for the moment, on what do you base your statement?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
Doesn't Ms. Barwick's argument essentially boil down to "if same-sex couples are denied the same legal rights as opposite sex couples, especially the ones regarding raising children together, maybe then daddy would have come to my school play"? This ignores the huge problem that, given her age, the women who raised her didn't have recourse to legal marriage or the rights attached thereto. As noted by others, her problem is with divorce, not any particular configuration of marriage, and yet she's not calling for an end to legal divorce.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Yeah it seems to be a common beliefs among homophobes that if we make life difficult for gay people and deny them rights, they'll all somehow become straight.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Doesn't Ms. Barwick's argument essentially boil down to "if same-sex couples are denied the same legal rights as opposite sex couples, especially the ones regarding raising children together, maybe then daddy would have come to my school play"? This ignores the huge problem that, given her age, the women who raised her didn't have recourse to legal marriage or the rights attached thereto. As noted by others, her problem is with divorce, not any particular configuration of marriage, and yet she's not calling for an end to legal divorce.
Well put. I suppose she also regrets that her mother could find a girl-friend, and live with her. How do you solve that one? Presumably, by making gay identities so toxic and shameful, that nobody would dare, or, alternatively, taking the kids into care. Progress!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I've just been reading about Egypt, where gays and transexuals keep a very low profile, for fear of being thrown in jail. I don't know how far homophobes in the US would like to go, in order to retoxify being gay. Well, hopefully, they won't succeed.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
If I had to take a wild guess I'd suspect that Ms Barwick discovered her intense desire for a Father retrospectively when re-evaluating her childhood following a conversion to evangelical Christianity.
Did you place money on that wild guess ?
This is my total-lack-of-surprise face: ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Doesn't Ms. Barwick's argument essentially boil down to "if same-sex couples are denied the same legal rights as opposite sex couples, especially the ones regarding raising children together, maybe then daddy would have come to my school play"? This ignores the huge problem that, given her age, the women who raised her didn't have recourse to legal marriage or the rights attached thereto. As noted by others, her problem is with divorce, not any particular configuration of marriage, and yet she's not calling for an end to legal divorce.
Yes.
As Betty Bowers says, "Four out of five Baptist divorcees want gays to stop undermining the sanctity of marriage".
With "reborn Christians" having a divorce rate of about 33% (Barna), I'd say it's time to clean up that house before going after gay families.
I'm seriously sorry that Ms. Barwick was deserted by her dad. But I'm sarky sorry that life with the loving adults who stuck with her and loved and cared for her was just not enough, and that she feels the need to publicly dis these women whom she claims she loves. Frankly she was damned lucky and it's a pity she doesn't realize it.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
One thing I've noticed about the debate in Ireland, over the upcoming referendum on SSM, is that many of the arguments against (e.g. children should stay with their parents for life), seem also to provide arguments against divorce, adoption, single mothers, and so on. It all seems a bit surreal.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A woman raised by lesbian parents, who states that her mum and step mum were both good parents, has said gay marriage is fundamentally wrong. Link to essay.
I saw a similar article a couple of weeks ago by a different writer, which is what I thought your link would go to at first. (That similar article contains a rather large lie by omission, so I have to say I am skeptical of the actual truth of the account given in the article you linked to.)
Your article seems best summarized as "Daughter of divorcees is deeply hurt by her father's rejection of her and disinterest in her. Years later, after converting to Christianity, she creatively reinterprets her childhood experiences to blame gay people because her mother was gay."
[ 18. May 2015, 21:52: Message edited by: Starlight ]
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
many of the arguments against (e.g. children should stay with their parents for life), seem also to provide arguments against divorce, adoption, single mothers, and so on. It all seems a bit surreal.
I almost always feel really really bad for single mothers when hearing the anti-gay-parenting arguments. They seem to have no clue how horrible their rhetoric must sound when heard by single mothers.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
People resent their parents' divorce all the time. Why was this woman given a microphone? Because of the gay.
What's a little bit bizarre in this case, is that the parent she resents leaving her isn't the parent that is gay. Blaming her father for leaving her makes total sense. But instead she turns around and blames a particular category her mother belongs to... it's all a bit arbitrary.
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Well, there are tonnes of kids from very traditional, conservative families who decide to support gay marriage and no one gives them microphones.
And further to that, one of my best friends is in a similar situation to the author of the original article: Her birth parents divorced and her mother subsequently took a lesbian partner. As an adult, my friend after reflecting on her childhood... is a zealous supporter of gay rights. No one's given her a microphone though.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ha. "Father wound." This is exactly the kind of stuff that ex-gay ministries will tell you is the cause of you being gay.
Hands up who doesn't have a father issue of some kind?
~raises hand~
I'm gay and I've always gotten on really well with my father. I've always been a bit baffled by the father-issues theory.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I note, however, the insistence by many here that whatever the source of this woman's problems are, they must be anything but the sex of her upbringing parents.
A lot of us have friends and acquaintances who grew up in similar situations to the author of the article, but their life experiences have led them to very different conclusions to that of the author. Why should I disbelieve my friends' experiences just because someone wrote an article on the internet?
Instead, the conclusion I naturally come to is that insofar as the writer of the article attempts to generalize her experiences to all people raised by same-sex parents she is just plain wrong. Not only do the experiences of my own friends disprove her generalizations, but scientific studies also do.
Social experiences are complex, and there's many possible explanations for why someone feels a certain way, or what might have caused them to feel differently. The article author has seized on a particular explanation to explain her own life. It seems pretty doubtful that's the correct explanation, because we have good scientific data that her proposed explanation doesn't tend to be true in general, and because there is an extremely obvious alternative explanation available that she's blatantly ignoring (her unresolved issues resulting from her parent's divorce and her rejection by her biological father) which are well known to be a common issue for people in her situation.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing I've noticed about the debate in Ireland, over the upcoming referendum on SSM, is that many of the arguments against (e.g. children should stay with their parents for life), seem also to provide arguments against divorce, adoption, single mothers, and so on. It all seems a bit surreal.
Ah, but you see, those are all things that happen to heterosexuals, because life, but that gay stuff is a choice. </sarcasm>
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A woman raised by lesbian parents, who states that her mum and step mum were both good parents, has said gay marriage is fundamentally wrong. Link to essay.
I saw a similar article a couple of weeks ago by a different writer, which is what I thought your link would go to at first. (That similar article contains a rather large lie by omission, so I have to say I am skeptical of the actual truth of the account given in the article you linked to.)
Your article seems best summarized as "Daughter of divorcees is deeply hurt by her father's rejection of her and disinterest in her. Years later, after converting to Christianity, she creatively reinterprets her childhood experiences to blame gay people because her mother was gay."
She also decides that her mother should be deprived of the right to marry the person she loves. Gee, that's really repaying love with love, I wonder how her mom enjoys seeing her story in lots of conservative (and bigoted) web-sites. That's what I call really spreading the love!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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