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Source: (consider it) Thread: Here be Dinosaurs???
orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Please point to me any living reptile that could be mistaken for a cartoon diplodocus.

Please explain to me what this has to do with anything. We're talking about medieval art, not about a cartoon diplodocus. I predict the latter is based on an actual diplodocus, not on a living repitle.

[ 10. November 2016, 19:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Very nice scientific drawing. Nothing like a classic dinosaur.

If you mean something other than what you type then maybe the problem is with you not me.

This particular example was nothing like a cartoon diplodocus, but it is clear that there are actually scientific attempts at dinosaur drawings before the 19th century.

No I don't have a problem at all. Nothing in the beautifully accurate drawings of the C18th looks anything like the 'dinosaurs' in the Bishop Bell brass.

Whatever the inspiration for them is, it isn't from fossils.

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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There are not any good images from the bleeding thing that are not the photoshoped rubbish on the creationidiots websites to tell what on earth the things are supposed to be.

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Eutychus
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Or the ones posted by Stetson earlier by an anti-YECer attempting to argue that one photo is an evil YEC-photoshopped version of the other whereas other sites offer ample evidence that they are two completely different images. Talk about trying to manipulate the evidence to fit your prejudices.

Like I say, there is bad faith and dishonest reporting on both sides.

When I was last in Carlisle I visited the castle and an exhibition of 1951 Festival of Britain memorabilia (an inexplicable fascination of mine) but not the Cathedral. Surely there's someone on the Ship that can go and do some fact-checking on site?

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Martin60
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Nothing in the beautiful Science Photo Library from the C18th (Wow! They had cameras then too!) looks anything like a 'dinosaur'. You can't get to the unverified cartoon from this exquisite C18th image of 5% of one which started the ball rolling. There is no 'evolutionary' path in the images up to the time of the brass. It took fifty years.

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Love wins

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Penny S
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Having seen the current very worn state of the brass, I doubt anything can be determined by anyone. I suspect that the pictures the YECs are using are derived from that print.

I have blown up the print and taken out some of the wee beasties from the border. Most of them are in the left hand border, and a lot of the images look like rough attempts at foliage. (Or, possibly, rhysonetron (pseudo)fossils which are even older than dinosaurs and the cause of disagreement among paleontologists - and not found in the Carlisle area.) I haven't yet found the boar which the skeptic saw as the source image that had been altered. However, I have found the only image which has two beasts together, like the diplodocus one, half way up the left hand edge. It does not have a long tail. It does not have a long neck. It might just be an attempt at a camel.

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Penny S
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Not a boar - perhaps an attempt at a crocodile - still haven't found it, though.
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Clemency
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I started this so I suppose I had better do it - Just arranged with verger at Carlisle (it's only 40 miles away) to see the brass, heading off now on my mechanical steed... Will let you know tonight what I think

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
I started this so I suppose I had better do it - Just arranged with verger at Carlisle (it's only 40 miles away) to see the brass, heading off now on my mechanical steed... Will let you know tonight what I think

Take decent photos, and provide scale and context!!!!

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Lamb Chopped
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Thank you!!!!

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Or the ones posted by Stetson earlier by an anti-YECer attempting to argue that one photo is an evil YEC-photoshopped version of the other whereas other sites offer ample evidence that they are two completely different images. Talk about trying to manipulate the evidence to fit your prejudices.

Seriously? There is no "ample evidence". There are separate images which might have separate sources.
Even should those two images be different, this does not conclude that it is a dinosaur is represented. The very book (bible) that is being defended has no mention of dinosaurs??? Lions are mentioned as beasts to fear when people supposedly walked among raptors and t-Rex and beasts that dwarfed every. single.animal.that.ever.lived. except the blue whale? That stegosaurus and apatosaurus and pterodactyls and not to mention all the massive and crazy prehistoric mammals are completely missed? Instead, we hear about beasts which would be snacks if they coexisted?
quote:

Like I say, there is bad faith and dishonest reporting on both sides.

Yeah, but no. There are some people debunking in an amateur fashion what does not need debunking vs people trying to manipulate reality because they feel a threat.
Evolution does not threaten Christianity unless your faith is woven of the weakest cloth.

If the evidence provided by the YEC is valid, then Anubis exists/existed. There are many more clear and consistent images of him than of dinosaurs existing alongside man.

Presenting or representing in any way that both sides deserve equal respect, cynicism or attention is ridiculous.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Presenting or representing in any way that both sides deserve equal respect, cynicism or attention is ridiculous.

I never said anything about equal. It seems obvious to me that the line of argument and means of support on the site Stetson linked to is pathetic, though. It's always a mistake to assume all the stupidity is on the other side.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Presenting or representing in any way that both sides deserve equal respect, cynicism or attention is ridiculous.

I never said anything about equal. It seems obvious to me that the line of argument and means of support on the site Stetson linked to is pathetic, though. It's always a mistake to assume all the stupidity is on the other side.
There are stupid people on every side of every issue known to humans. This is irrelevant to the issue. Saying that person has not presented their case well, is different to saying that side does not present their case well.
The way things are phrased and presented matters. It is why people who do not accept global warming have a seat at the adults' table when they should be in a crèche.
YEC deserves ridicule.
IMO, the problem is that some object to ridiculing the people who believe in YEC.
Though I understand how it might come to be that intelligent people might find themselves believing drivel, I admit I find it hard to separate the belief from the person.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IMO, the problem is that some object to ridiculing the people who believe in YEC.

Yes, that's probably where we part company on this.

I can't claim never to ridicule some views, or the people who hold them, but I always feel it's a poor way to win an argument. Ridicule is cheap, and even the truth can be ridiculed. Ridicule should not stand in the way of reasoned argument.

But I also recognise this insistence is one of my personal idiosyncrasies.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IMO, the problem is that some object to ridiculing the people who believe in YEC.

Yes, that's probably where we part company on this.

I can't claim never to ridicule some views, or the people who hold them, but I always feel it's a poor way to win an argument. Ridicule is cheap, and even the truth can be ridiculed. Ridicule should not stand in the way of reasoned argument.

But I also recognise this insistence is one of my personal idiosyncrasies.

Not entirely. In my (all too few) better moments, I agree with your sentiment here.

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Penny S
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When I was trying to find non-biassed images, I noticed that the biblical word which kept coming up with the image was 'behemoth', which they assume means dinosaur, in the absence of Owens of the Natural History Museum to inform the authors of the name to be given in the 29th century.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IMO, the problem is that some object to ridiculing the people who believe in YEC.

Yes, that's probably where we part company on this.

I can't claim never to ridicule some views, or the people who hold them, but I always feel it's a poor way to win an argument. Ridicule is cheap, and even the truth can be ridiculed. Ridicule should not stand in the way of reasoned argument.

But I also recognise this insistence is one of my personal idiosyncrasies.

Nice rejoinder, an oldie but a goodie.
There is no reasoned argument against YEC, because it is not a position of reason. It is simply a defence against a threat that it creates itself. Unfortunately, the collateral damage is real.

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
When I was trying to find non-biassed images, I noticed that the biblical word which kept coming up with the image was 'behemoth', which they assume means dinosaur, in the absence of Owens of the Natural History Museum to inform the authors of the name to be given in the 29th century.

Behemoth and Leviathan are bogeys. They are not used to threaten in conventional ways as are lions.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Clemency
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Back now, getting chilly on two wheels this time of year. Friendly verger, have got good pics (can anyone tell me how I can share them with you?). Can confirm that the images on line are not photoshopped, and they do in fact look quite convincingly diplodocine. The images are interspersed with words on the outer border inscription of the brass, and the others mostly look like recognisable beasts - dogs, a rat? etc, and several species of fish, along with flowers and foliage, totally decorative. Apparently lots of folk from Australia come asking to see them...

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Who knows where the Time goes?

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Eutychus
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Great field work, Clemency!

For the images, you could upload them to an image-sharing site like Imgur. If you're not sure how to do this and don't have anyone to hand to help, PM me to discuss alternative solutions.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There is no reasoned argument against YEC, because it is not a position of reason.

I can't see why one cannot reasonably explain why an argument is not reasonable. It may not convince the person, but in the long run it is a much more robust way of convincing onlookers than simply pointing and saying "ha! ha! ha!".

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There is no reasoned argument against YEC, because it is not a position of reason.

I can't see why one cannot reasonably explain why an argument is not reasonable. It may not convince the person, but in the long run it is a much more robust way of convincing onlookers than simply pointing and saying "ha! ha! ha!".
Yes. This. Thank you.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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If the foundation of the argument be built on sand, and pretty loose sand at that, the least reasoned water washeth it all away. The argument that a sieve is a bucket is every bit as robust and as worthy as winged swine.

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\_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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IME, the less reasoned the belief, the tightly it is grasped.
That is one reason Dead Horses exists.

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Goldfish Stew
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IME, the less reasoned the belief, the tightly it is grasped.
That is one reason Dead Horses exists.

I suspect ridicule isn't the right tool to prise open that tight grasp...

But it is a way to vent frustration... [Big Grin]

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Eutychus
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A major reason I come to DH, and indeed to the Ship in general, is to try and understand what other people think, and how, and to benchmark my own reasoning on a range of issues against theirs.

The Ship has been instrumental in shaping my thinking over the years, and that includes changing my stance on a number of DH issues (YEC not being one of them, I think it's always seemed suspect to me despite being pushed in the circles I grew up in).

If there's one thing that consistently stands in the way of this process for me, it's people who have nothing but scorn, ridicule or even hatred for other points of view. Sometimes such sentiments have almost made me change my mind back, despite compelling arguments.

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Eutychus
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(In fact thinking about it, YECers' scorn, ridicule or even hatred for evolutionists was probably instrumental in me doubting the YEC stance from the outset).

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
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Meanwhile, back on topic, here are a couple of pics from Clemency: here and here

Kudos again for making the trip, Clemency!

The "diplodocus head" on the left looks a bit like the back end of a Chimera to me (especially because of which way the legs are facing).

[ 12. November 2016, 08:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Clemency
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The 'head' on the left is interpreted by YEC as being a spiked tail or 'thagomiser' (google this one, it's fun) well known from the Stegosaurs but apparently recently found in brontosaur-type beasts as well (sorry but cannot lay my hands on the book at the moment, usual poltergeist problem). It's odd because one would have expected a symmetrical pair of identical animals, but the one on the r has a conventional tail.

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Eutychus
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If that's a thagomizer, it's having a lot of fun.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Goldfish Stew
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Thanks Clemency... very interesting

That tail certainly looks like it has a head (and is on a more muscular/cat-like body than the second beastie.)

It's a shame the central engravings appear to have worn away. The feet are interesting on the right hand specimen - almost human-like feet at the front and perhaps hooves at the back.

What we have is 2 beasties, 1 which appears to share features with certain dinosaur species believed to be long extinct, and one which doesn't.

I wouldn't consider it compelling myself, but see how someone committed to a view that had dinosaurs present more recently might latch on to it.

The truth is we don't rightly know. We don't even have scale, just assumed scale.

If I were really investigating this further, I'd be looking at the other beasties on the brass and cataloguing them. Is there a theme - perhaps a list of animals that maps to a piece of literature etc.? Are all other animals shown there easily ascribable to known contemporary animals, or are there examples of mythic beasties present? What "margin of error" for the features of the creature is noted - how stylized are the images of presumed known creatures? Are they fatter/thinner etc.

And what other contemporary accounts are there of similar beasties?

How much more the answers to such questions actually tell us may be debatable, but it could provide interesting information.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
perhaps hooves at the back.

Yes, I was wondering about a giraffe, drawn by someone who had never seen one (I can see something that looks like two ossicornes on what might be the largely erased head of the beastie to the right).

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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@Goldfish Stew, we do rightly know that it has nothing to do with dinosaurs apart from via dragons which are obviously based on snakes, salamanders, lizards, crocodiles, bats and large animal remains, including ... Chinese dinosaur fossils.

And yes, it is impossible to reason with unreasoned positions unless those holding them can be taught reason, which is virtually impossible in adulthood. I was nearly lost myself.

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Sometimes such sentiments have almost made me change my mind back, despite compelling arguments.

This is a stupid, but all too human, trait. Stubborn is one of my major flaws, so I understand, but it is still a stupid thing. I often find it difficult to admit out loud when I am wrong, especially when the discussion is still under-way.
In the spirit of this, I was wrong about the photoshop.

The head* of the creature on the right does indeed look like a child's rendition of a giraffe. Indeed, all three beasts I've seen referenced are at a young child's level of artistic skill. This, combined with lack of knowledge and fantastical beasts, are what these engravings consist of.


*All anatomical labels will be approximate, obviously

quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
'thagomiser' (google this one, it's fun)

There is only one reference necessary.
Thank you for the images, BTW.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Penny S
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Thanks Clemency - certainly clearer than what is visible on that print, which does seem to have been copied inaccurately. I'd like to see the rest of the images, and the text (and translation), if at all possible. Having seen the difference between the print and your photo, I'm reluctant to identify the fish and the weasel I think I spotted.

Perhaps we should all go to the latest Rowling film - 'Fantastic Creatures and where to find them'.

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Goldfish Stew
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
(In fact thinking about it, YECers' scorn, ridicule or even hatred for evolutionists was probably instrumental in me doubting the YEC stance from the outset).

{digression - as one who has periodically been guilty of ridicule in the opposite direction, regrettably I note that this analysis cuts both ways...}

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Clemency
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I would have spent longer but did not want to trouble the vergers, and they had a service coming up anyway. Finding my way to the Cathedral - the only route is through a labyrinth of back streets - took some time, and I found myself on a main road heading due south into sun so low that I had to ride with one hand in front of my eyes, and there was no chance of reading road signs...There are outer and inner inscriptions. The inner is very standard, here lies Bishop Richard Bell, who died... etc (in Latin of course), the outer, with the beasts and floral motifs, is probably pious phrases.....

Suggestion. Carlisle was a troubled Border city, in medieval years always under threat from the Scots, who were far more terrifying than the good bishop's menagerie of tame saurians (which thus escaped mention in documentary sources) and said beasts were eventually stolen during a raid, driven north, and disposed of in some loch or other.....

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Posts: 90 | From: Northumberland, UK | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I wonder what conclusions cryptozoologists might come to when they unearth Dr Seuss books in 500 years' time?

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Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
Suggestion. Carlisle was a troubled Border city, in medieval years always under threat from the Scots, who were far more terrifying than the good bishop's menagerie of tame saurians (which thus escaped mention in documentary sources) and said beasts were eventually stolen during a raid, driven north, and disposed of in some loch or other.....

Convinces me. (Also thanks for the pictures).

As far as I can see we have that theory and variations (which more or less works, but only with the additional details above)

The pretty near accurate picture of something that we can't identify yet. (which subject to finding a contender would work)

The rather less accurate picture of something of something that's quite different, if you described a giraffe butting heads I could picture it turning out like that**. (again imo works)

The surprisingly** accurate picture of something (actually saurian) described from very afar in space or time* (which again works, but raises other questions).

*within history perhaps but only just.

**(compare the blue tiger in the bestiary, not too bad considering the distance but ...)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
(In fact thinking about it, YECers' scorn, ridicule or even hatred for evolutionists was probably instrumental in me doubting the YEC stance from the outset).

{digression - as one who has periodically been guilty of ridicule in the opposite direction, regrettably I note that this analysis cuts both ways...}
Plenty of ridicule going the other way right here on this thread. Naming no names.

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Martin60
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# 368

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We gotta find a better way. I gotta. I'm cruel but fair, but not equally.

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Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Goldfish Stew
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# 5512

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I wonder what conclusions cryptozoologists might come to when they unearth Dr Seuss books in 500 years' time?

Indeed. Although through the lens of source criticism I would suggest that a brass ornamental etching in a cathedral may be considered a slightly different genre from a rhyming children's book designed to get children to read.

Just saying

[ 14. November 2016, 06:08: Message edited by: Goldfish Stew ]

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Clemency
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# 16173

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One late comment. Have found my book - the brontosaur-type with a spiked tail is SHUNOSAURUS, only found in China. The spiked tail/thagomiser is shown a bit big on the Carlisle version, but, hey, quite recognisable..

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
One late comment. Have found my book - the brontosaur-type with a spiked tail is SHUNOSAURUS, only found in China. The spiked tail/thagomiser is shown a bit big on the Carlisle version, but, hey, quite recognisable..

To me it does rather look like another head. Like on a Chimaera.

Thing is, I'm not quite sure what creationists are trying to prove here. That dinosaurs survived into the 15th century? How does that tally with their other ideas that the fossil record (where all the dinosaur remains are found) was laid down during the flood? Why are there no dinosaur bones in any archaeological remains? None in tarpits? Why did a late 15th century brass maker put images of a Chinese dinosaur on there? Why aren't they still around now? Why does no-one record anything like them in historical times?

[ 14. November 2016, 10:38: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Thing is, I'm not quite sure what creationists are trying to prove here. That dinosaurs survived into the 15th century? How does that tally with their other ideas that the fossil record (where all the dinosaur remains are found) was laid down during the flood? Why are there no dinosaur bones in any archaeological remains? None in tarpits? Why did a late 15th century brass maker put images of a Chinese dinosaur on there?

From what I've gathered from books, presentations and conversations by/with Creationists (admittedly not on this exact subject) I would expect the argument to run something like this:

1. They generally accept the scientific consensus that fossilisation under normal circumstances is rare, and thus they do not expect many (if any) fossils to have been formed after the Flood. Thus, they would say, virtually all fossils were formed in the Flood (and may accept a few more recent ones - though most of what we have from the past 10,000 years are actually mumified rather than fossilised).

2. The fossils (produced by the Flood) represent the geographical spread of creatures before the Flood. After the Flood, the descendants of the managerie in the Ark are likely to have occupied different geographical areas. Thus, there is no difficulty with a dinosaur that had lived in what is now China pre-Flood being found in NW Europe afterwards. The biggest problem here is that clearly many creatures went back to similar areas to where they came from before the Flood - kangeroos to Australia etc. So, why did some creatures go home, and others not?

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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
I would suggest that a brass ornamental etching in a cathedral may be considered a slightly different genre from a rhyming children's book designed to get children to read.

I'm not sure. My comment was not intended as riducule. I'm no specialist, but it strikes me that stonemason in medieval cathedrals had quite a lot of fun that didn't necessarily represent something factual or serious. Thinking especially of Wells cathedral's toothache man.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To me it does rather look like another head. Like on a Chimaera.

Indeed, that was my suggestion earlier.

(Incidentally, chimeras are also my interpretation of the fire-breathing monsters in Revelation 11, more often explained as ballistic missiles by enthusiastic tribulationists. I think the tendency to read our own contextual meaning into historic images - for which we often sorely lack context- is huge. There's a fun roundup of some of these here).

[ 14. November 2016, 14:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Goldfish Stew
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# 5512

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
I would suggest that a brass ornamental etching in a cathedral may be considered a slightly different genre from a rhyming children's book designed to get children to read.

I'm not sure. My comment was not intended as riducule. I'm no specialist, but it strikes me that stonemason in medieval cathedrals had quite a lot of fun that didn't necessarily represent something factual or serious. Thinking especially of Wells cathedral's toothache man.
Indeed, and there was a reason I said earlier in the thread that it would be instructive to review the other beasties on the brass for any sense of theme/proportion etc. If every other beastie were easily identifiable as an animal found locally (or in the Bishop's menagerie) then this would be less seuss and more Zoo. Within reason.

If there were winged serpents, an Impossibilodon and three headed pheasants then a less literal view of the beastie in question is very well supported.

If there were a hippopotomus-like beastie, but with clear issues of proportion and accuracy, and a lion that looked more like someone tried to draw it based on a description then any confidence in the accuracy of rendering that someone may have is undermined.

And if at the bottom there's the signature of a certain Doctor known for his rhyming stories, then all bets are off.

For the record, I don't think this is a dinosaur or any particularly stunnning piece of evidence - just throwing the kinds of exploratory thoughts I'd be applying in response to the original question.

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Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I'm also reminded of the bit in Out of the Silent Planet where Ransom comes across the carvings on Malacandra and has his portrait done by a pfifltrigg:
quote:
'It is not how they would draw me in my own world.'
'No,' said the pfifiltrigg. 'I do not mean it to be too like. Too like, and they will not believe it - those who are born after' (...)
it dawned upon Ransom that the odious figures were intended as an idealisation of humanity. Conversation languished for a while...



[ 15. November 2016, 08:05: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baker
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# 18458

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Kind of a tangent here, but I saw an amusing belated birthday card.

It depicts two dinosaurs perched on rocks, surrounded by water. Near the horizon is Noah's Ark. As they watch it float away one dino says "Oh crap! Was that today???"

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