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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: 101 ways to put people off going to church
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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I have heard many hair-raising accounts of people who have been put off a particular church, or church in general, by unthinking or just plain cruel attitudes. eg. the recent press about vicars who object to certain words on gravestones or hymns at weddings. Also, people who are put off by personal criticism of their lifestyle or sexuality. Perhaps if S-o-F members could print their own examples here, the thread could become compulsory reading for ordination candidates: a what-not-to-do-guide!

[ 10. March 2003, 02:00: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Newman's Own
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# 420

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I cannot help but notice that it is just assumed that anyone who insists on, for example, music that is compatible with a liturgical service, is assumed to be cruel for not giving people just what they want.

As for the other - though I doubt anyone would want to see people treated unkindly, it seems to me that a vicar who upheld the idea (which many members of his congregation would share) that sex belongs only in marriage would immediately be judged cruel. Well, it works in the other direction as well! People who sincerely hold these beliefs, and often who wish to teach the same to their children, can easily feel they do not matter, in certain settings where those who feel otherwise seem the main focus of attention.

I knew of an RC parish, some years back, when special ministers of Communion first were introduced. (It was a small parish - I doubt they actually needed such assistance.) It seemed that everyone distributing communion was either divorced and remarried or in concubinage. I imagine this was intended to show tolerance, but many married people took this as a slap in the face.

I, for one, am put off by those who do not show integrity. People who do not agree with me will still have my respect if they do not compromise their beliefs.

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


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Miffy

Ship's elephant
# 1438

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TBH -It's not only the ordination candidates who should be made to read this thread. Speaking personally, I've rarely encountered off putting attitudes on the part of the clergy. It's your bog standard member of the congregation I'd concentrate on.

Would rate a busy-busy set up as one of the most likely to drive folk away from a church. The ppl so occupied organising the rota to organise the rota- rota or sorting exactly the right type of 'worship,' that they fail to notice the person bleeding by the roadside.

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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches


Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rross
Apprentice
# 1171

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I have a (possibly apocryphal) one... A friend told me about a church who were having problems with 'less desirables' coming in off the street during church services and distracting the congregation.
So the church built an adjoining room to the main building, with a thick glass window, so the said less desirables could watch the service and not disturb the others..


Rr.


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IconiumBound
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# 754

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The most common reason heard from those who do not attend church is "they're too many hypocrites." This seems to underlie many of the examples of pettiness and cruelty we read here and on other threads, that "real Christians shouldn't act like that."
Philip Yancey in his book What's So Amazing About Grace calls this behavior "ungrace" and makes a poignant argument for accepting the gift of God's grace through Communion.

[fixed code]

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: Laura ]


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syncopaque
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# 610

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quote:
A friend told me about a church who were having problems with 'less desirables' coming in off the street during church services and distracting the congregation.
So the church built an adjoining room to the main building, with a thick glass window, so the said less desirables could watch the service and not disturb the others..

WHAT?!?!?



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the atmosphere was far too low...


Posts: 178 | From: chicagoland | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Sticking strictly with the main point of this thread, not because I don't like the wanderings but because I have nothing useful or interesting to add to them, I shall say:

PREACH TOO LONG.

Alex

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...


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Astro
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# 84

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Churches are like hospitals.
You should never go to any hospital
as they are always full of ill people.
When was the last time you visited a hospital
that had well patients?
In the same way you should avoid churches.
When was the last time you visited a church that had anyone in the congregation that was not a sinner?

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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)

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Joan Henrietta Newperson
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# 1203

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There was an lady at our church who used to shout loudly at people had come to the service for the first time. Just as the procession was beginning she would shout that they were in the wrong place and that they needed to move pews. I certainly don't think I would have come back if that had happened to me.

J. H. N.

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J. H. N.

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"A closed mouth gathers no foot"


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Calvin
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# 271

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A slightly light hearted example ... a friend when attending an anlgican church for the first time (she was used to house churchs) was most anoyed that during the peace, people were shaking her hand and saying what she though was "Pleased to meet you" and then not asking her name or talking to her any more. So sometime it can be little miss understandings which put people off churches.

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A crash reduces
Your expensive computer
To a simple stone.

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Fiddleback
unregistered


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Actually that's what I usually say when people try to share the peace with me.
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CharlottePlatz
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# 695

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When I first shifted my life down to London, I did the official Church tour - going to one particular happy clappy type Church I had heard about. I arrived early (an attempt to mingle in the pre service bit), sat myself down and was told that I had to move out of my seat because someone else had already 'bagged it' - and then the woman proceeded to try and shift me right down to the front row - which to be honest, was not somewhere I wanted to sit. Apparently
'Pastor always gets prophecies for nice young ladies who sit on the front row'. (!!!!) I managed to literally shove my way out of this woman's reach and sit on the back row. The sermon dragged on and ooonnnnn and admittedly, not that sensitively, I started to wind up my watch. It wasn't a loud noise, but the woman in front of me, immediately turned round and in a complete fury hissed at me 'Would you STOP that, you are REALLY ANNOYING ME'. I was soooo embarrassed because I hadn't realised anyone could hear it - and everyone nearby heard what this woman had said. She made more of a distraction with her hissing than I did with my watch!! Anyway, I slunk out, never to return. I still go red when I think of it now!

I also once passed a Church in Rochester with a big sign outside that read 'Think the Church is full of hypocrites? Come on in, we have room for one more'.


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Ariel
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# 58

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Sermons that drag on and are more like theological essays, than with any real relevance to the hearer.

Being scowled at or rebuked publicly in front of the altar and everyone else when you get the Communion procedure wrong.


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Newman's Own
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# 420

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I could easily list more than 101 (understandable) reasons why I have seen people turn from the church, but I shall refrain.

However, we must be careful not to be flippant with those trying to express pain. I doubt anyone expects to find a church where people are not sinners - but one may meet many who were deeply hurt by specific ways in which they were treated, often by those whom they had trusted. The "hypocrites" line may be an excuse at times, but there are others who speak this in a voice of huge pain, based on being treated with cruelty by those who most professed to be charitable.

We need to learn to listen! If someone is bitter towards the church, and perhaps considering returning, there probably is little we can do that would be worse than telling them that everyone is a sinner or that everyone is a hypocrite. That only shows we're denying the validity of their feelings, which may have far deeper dimensions than we know.

Actually, there is one way in which those within the church can be even worse than garden variety bastards! At least the latter do not profess to have anything except their own interests at heart. The cruelty that I have seen, justified in the name of the "good of the community," or for some "religious" good, is all the worse because it has such a sense of "you don't matter - I did it for the good of the Church." The more devout we are, the easier it is for us to have "holy" reasons for being horrid.

Just as one example, I've known devout people who were active in and served parishes for decades, who could not so much as get a priest to visit them when they were dying.

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


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Peronel

The typo slayer
# 569

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Things to put you off church:

Being told that you're possessed by demons, and having someone insist on praying for you. Then saying that it hasn't worked cos you're evil and a worshipper of baal and that God hates you for that.

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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.


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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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cripes, Emilie, that would certainly put me off! Sounds like you found yourself a pretty weird church. Hopefully this sort of thing is in the minority in our post-medieval society?

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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You should be so bloody lucky. I was told I didn't pray in tongues because I was possessed by a demon of fear or something. I had to fake it to get away.... Gnome, meanwhile, was told she had a demon of Confusion at one point because she was depressed.

It goes on. I even heard (on good authority) of a conference where the men (of course, not a problem for the ladies) were handed tissues to cough out the demon of masturbation. Wonderful sense of irony, if nothing else.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.


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David
Complete Bastard
# 3

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Sing dull, banal "hymns", couched in an idiom that hasn't been used in normal conversation for 400 years and that nobody who hasn't been brought up singing hymns understands because nobody reads the KJV/AV anymore because it's been thoroughly exposed as the shithouse translation that it is.

So there.


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Old Fashioned Crab
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# 1204

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David. I draw your attention to your own sig.

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O dear white children casual as birds,
Playing among the ruined languages,
So small beside their large confusing words,
So gay against the greater silences
Of dreadful things you did

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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David has a reinforced steel arse. You try stinging through it.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Old Fashioned Crab
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# 1204

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I was referring to the thing about stupidity being forever.

--------------------
O dear white children casual as birds,
Playing among the ruined languages,
So small beside their large confusing words,
So gay against the greater silences
Of dreadful things you did

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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There is only one thing, IME, which put you off a church, or any grouping - that is not being conformable to its predominant ethos: or put simply, not being 'one of Us'.

And who are the 'Us'? Well, it varies. Ditto the rapidity and extent to which your non-Ussness is signalled.

I would further mischeviously assert that when you find the church that doesn't, you haven't found the one truly tolerant accepting congregation, you have just found your particular Us.

I speak from many years experience of being more of a Cuss than an Us.
_____________________________________________


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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Unless a person is very insecure in their belief, a sense of the church not being 'us' would probably not on its own be enough to put them off: however, if the 'non-usness' descended into personal attacks and regular hostility towards the person who is 'different' then it would be hard to last long in such a situation.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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marmot

Mountain mammal
# 479

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I've told this story before, but it fits the thread, so here goes:

My former church ran an Alpha course to which mostly parishioners came. However there was one fellow who visited and brought up some questions (just as he should in an Alpha Course). The next week, one of the course leaders handed out a several page treatise on the heresies that the visitor had touched on in the course of his inquiries.

Oh, yeah. I'd go back after that.

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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"


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Jonah the Whale

Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244

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quote:
Originally posted by Rross:
I have a (possibly apocryphal) one... A friend told me about a church who were having problems with 'less desirables' coming in off the street during church services and distracting the congregation.
So the church built an adjoining room to the main building, with a thick glass window, so the said less desirables could watch the service and not disturb the others..


Rr.


I sincerely hope this one belongs in the Urban Myths section!


Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Paul W.

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# 1450

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My church are good at the long sermon thing. We had a guy the other week who did a one and a quarter hour exposition of the book of Habakkuk, running half an hour over time. And he didn't finish everything he wanted to say then.

The thing that really puts me off church is cliqueness(sp?). I know a church that I went to for a while, but found it really difficult to be accepted as part of it, even though I was helping out at events and stuff like that.

Paul W


Posts: 2835 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
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# 30

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A wee tangent Karl,
I saw this excellent book reiew on exorcismat salon .com which I found pretty fascinating - seemingly a lot of people see it as 'quick fix' therapy.


As for 101 ways to put people off church, I highly recommend letting the congregation 'eccentrics' corner the poor newcomer at tea until they run screaming for the hills.

Search and rescue squads can be very useful on these occasions.

cheers,
Louise

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Beenster
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# 242

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Something to invite your "non-Christian" friends to ...

A bring and share supper and a barn dance / ten pin bowling ...

Plenty of people woudl find those worthwhile activities but one that my friends would not be tempted by. there is something about the words "bring and share supper" that give me a nervous rash.

And you also know that the evening will not be complete with carefully chosen God slot. To reach out to our "non-Christian friends".


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Paul W.

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# 1450

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Another one from my church - during the spirit-led worship we sometimes sing a hymn with about 9 or 10 verses, and then someone says "Can we sing it again please?"
And we do.
Must say, that put me off a bit the first time it happened.

Oh, and don't forget the cringe inducing signs outside churches. They can scare people off before they've even got to the door. I live in Headingley, the "world epicentre of naff church signs"!

Paul W


Posts: 2835 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Newman's Own
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# 420

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When it comes to greeting newcomers, I've found two equally exasperating extremes: those who are not at all friendly but clearly doing this as a sacrifice, and those who try so hard to make people feel they are interested in them that they've asked them for everything except their blood group, and invited them to fifteen meetings, before ten minutes have passed. One well-meaning friend of mine, who is a member of the latter set, and in a parish where most people are far from wealthy but a few (including himself) are fairly prosperous, tends to like to impress people with "well, we may not have any million pound houses in the immediate area, but..." It never occurs to him that any newcomer is not looking for wealth, and indeed may be put off by this impression.

Firm believer in social justice though I am, it never ceases to amaze me how many clergy here and there are trying so hard to impress these causes on people that they do not notice that they themselves are speaking so much of the time they spend with "the oppressed" that their parishioners inwardly wonder why they have no time for them. I remember one parish where the sad joke about the vicar used to be "he has no time for people like us... we're not in prison."

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


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David
Complete Bastard
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Fashioned Crab:
I was referring to the thing about stupidity being forever.

Refute it then.

Or watch your backside.


Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Newman's Own
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# 420

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quote:
Originally posted by Renee:
... there was one fellow who visited and brought up some questions (just as he should in an Alpha Course). The next week, one of the course leaders handed out a several page treatise on the heresies that the visitor had touched on in the course of his inquiries.

An academic, no doubt. Thank you, Renee, since I'll remember this one. This is exactly the sort of thing I would do, and with the best of intentions. I adore refuting heresies, and tend to assume that the hearer would be enlightened as to the truth by seeing the error.

I still recall, blushing in the process, the theologically correct but pompous response I gave to a lady who said "the most important thing to pray for is your health."

--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

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Obvioulsy the very thing that might off-put one prospective church-goer would delight someone else (this is probably why there is a variety of churches).

For instance, I cannot stand being mobbed by strangers. I'm quite happy to go into the church, have my chat with God, shake the vicar's hand and depart. I don't really care if a fulsome regular rushes up and introduces himself and invites me pressingly to the coffee after (I never go to the coffee after, not even in my own church).

On the other hand, I can easily see that some people would be offended to be left to their own devices and would feel "unwelcome" if they were not escorted along to the coffee hour.

So if your church is too friendly I won't come back -- but just watch and see how many people post after me to say that such-and-such a place was not friendly enough and so they never returned!

HT


Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Old Fashioned Crab
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# 1204

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If you really want to kill people's commitment, try inviting them round to discuss their concerns about the fact that the Church will not allow women to sing in the choir, then tell them to stop whining and suggest to them that they have psychological issues which make them abnormally concerned with the choir. This happened to me last night

--------------------
O dear white children casual as birds,
Playing among the ruined languages,
So small beside their large confusing words,
So gay against the greater silences
Of dreadful things you did

Posts: 397 | From: Croydon UK | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Paul - I lived in Headingley for some years - which church are you going to?

Hour and a quarter sermon - Hell material indeed - that's how God will punish me if I've led a wicked life - He'll make me listen to long sermons and sing songs with 10 verses over and over again.

It's very important that preachers say everything in the first 15 minutes. If they bang on longer than that, they're just wasting their voice, because everyone's attention has wandered. Funny how the grain pattern of the wood in the pew in front becomes fascinating 16 minutes into a sermon.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.


Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steve_R
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# 61

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quote:
Originally posted by Old Fashioned Crab:
If you really want to kill people's commitment, try inviting them round to discuss their concerns about the fact that the Church will not allow women to sing in the choir,

You mean you can actually get enough for a choir without having any women in it??

When I joined the choir at my last church I was greeted by "My God, a man!" and joined both the existing male choristers in the noninal bass section

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Love and Kisses, Steve_R


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Calvin
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# 271

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Another thing that can easily put people off a church is if on your first (or even in your first few) visit(s) you are accosted but a someone who has from a distance decided that you are gifted in youthwork/making coffee/helping in the creche etc. because the church at that time has a desperate need for people to do those jobs and as a new face you have not yet been asked.

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A crash reduces
Your expensive computer
To a simple stone.

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Ann

Curious
# 94

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Karl - worse than having to sing songs with ten verses over again would be to have to sing a chorus of one verse, repeated ten times, over again.

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Ann

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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True enough. But even the most enthusiastic congregations usually get bored after the fourth time*, so it's over sooner.

*Until next Sunday of course.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.


Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Paul W.

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# 1450

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Karl,
The church I was referring to with the signboard has featured many times on the SoF page devoted to that subject. I used to go there, but I'm now at Woodhouse Christian Fellowship, in...er...Woodhouse. Hour long sermons aside, I really enjoy it and feel I belong there, unlike my previous church where I was only ever a spectator.
Whereabouts did you used to go in Headingley?

Paul W


Posts: 2835 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alaric the Goth
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# 511

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originally posted by Paul W:
quote:
don't forget the cringe inducing signs outside churches. They can scare people off before they've even got to the door. I live in Headingley, the "world epicentre of naff church signs"!

Yes, well, you HAVE got SPBC admittedly, but my BC up t'road in Horsforth regularly tries to outdo it!

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'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)


Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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I used to go to St Matthias in Burley. I don't think it would suit me now.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Paul W.

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# 1450

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Alaric,
Did your church ever do anything as bad as:

Jesus is the
STRONGEST LINK
Who'll never say goodbye.

or

Believe In God Brother
He won't eject you from His House

I swear these are real.

Paul W


Posts: 2835 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anna B
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# 1439

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To my shame, I once stood by and did nothing while a man in our congregation drove away a pretty young newcomer with his constant attentions. She was clearly interested in getting some peace and quiet, but she wasn't going to find it there anytime soon. I think others in the congregation may also have known how difficult he was making things for her, but we all ignored it, partly because he was just so dreadfully and obviously lonely, partly because we were still learning how to welcome people. One day she missed church and never came back. I still think about her sometimes, and this thread has reminded me that I really should pray for her and all those who long for the peace of God.

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Bad Christian (TM)

Posts: 3069 | From: near a lot of fish | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Campbellite

Ut unum sint
# 1202

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Concerning overly long sermons:

I believe that the mind can only absorb as much as the butt can endure.

When I came to my present parish, one of the leading elders told me (with a smile) that they did not pay overtime if I went beyond noon.

--------------------
I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?


Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mrs de Point
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# 1430

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An excess of fire & brimstone puts some people off. My other half doesn't enjoy being told he might burn in hell and so avoids church!

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Beware I am not in control of my hormones..... or my mind

Posts: 602 | From: Across the road from Calvin | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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has he tried a liberal church - they are far more inclusive. I wish evangelical courses like Alpha would allow people who don't fit into the literalist biblical interpretation mould to be pointed in the direction of more liberal churches, otherwise when presented with 'this is Christianity take it or leave it' they might just leave it.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Beenster
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# 242

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I remember that lovely irish minister working in a holiday resort that he had got a great series for the summer season to attract the tourists. The seven deadly sins. On sin per sunday. He never understood why it held no appeal.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Newman's Own
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# 420

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Love it, Beenster. It reminded me of a lovely, elderly Irish priest I knew who was fascinated with "victim souls." Any conversation with Fr Joseph led to talk about how these people had such sufferings and just asked God for more and more so they could offer it for poor sinners. One friend of mine, who at the time had terminal cancer so was no stranger to suffering, told me that she couldn't bear to talk to Joe, because it made her so terrified.

Another, very nice young RC priest had spent about five years in diocesan office work before he first was assigned to a parish. Many of his co-workers had been feminist nuns, who were always complaining that they didn't get enough recognition, that they were barred from the altar, that people didn't appreciate their wisdom, etc. Naturally, he had the impression that this was a pressing issue for one and all. In parish work (and far more women than men were active there), any lady who asked to speak with him received the response, "I'm sure you'd rather be talking to a woman." Effects were naturally very negative - the impression was that he did not want to be bothered. (When asked to visit the sick, he always tried to send a female Eucharistic minister... with the same effect.)

One churchwarden I knew thought that acting very enthusiastic with "new people" would make them get involved in the church. He'd praise them, tell them he hoped to see them socially, propose ways they could use talents, etc. Unfortunately, the wonderful ideas never materialised... and, as soon as another new family showed up, he did not so much as greet the last "batch" - he was too busy using the exact same lines on the new.

In one parish where I was, the priest seemed very glad I was there at first, encouraging me to meet people, suggesting an area of service, and so forth. It hurt terribly when he no longer did so, and suggested I might be called to a hidden, solitary life and such. I still often wonder what I did wrong or who I offended.

Another surefire way to get people running in the opposite direction: invite them to a social gathering of some kind, then let them know you did so because you "felt sorry for them." Or, better yet, accept an invitation from them, and say later that you only did so because you feared they'd become emotionally upset had you declined.

(Don't let me get started on how churches sometimes treat employees...)

--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn


Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anna B
Shipmate
# 1439

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quote:
In one parish where I was, the priest seemed very glad I was there at first, encouraging me to meet people, suggesting an area of service, and so forth. It hurt terribly when he no longer did so, and suggested I might be called to a hidden, solitary life and such. I still often wonder what I did wrong or who I offended.

A friend of mine who works in newcomer ministries calls this phenomenon "kiss and swim." I feel sorry for that priest, Newman---you reward closer acquaintance so lavishly.

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Bad Christian (TM)


Posts: 3069 | From: near a lot of fish | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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