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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: I am not a Christian!
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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I’m not a Christian – sorry but that’s how it is. I know I’m not a Christian because although I try in my own small, inadequate way to follow the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, although I believe that I’ve encountered the risen Christ, although I get strength and support (sometimes) from my prayer life, although I try to follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit, all of this, apparently, counts for nothing because my doctrinal position is fundamentally unsound.

Well, excuse me, I’ve just been re-reading Matthew 25 v31-46 in which the alleged founder of this religion talks about His criteria for admission and – now, here’s a funny thing – it’s all about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and stuff like that, no mention of the Virgin Birth or the doctrine of the Trinity, no warnings against heresy or anything like that. So - He obviously wasn’t a very good Christian, was He? Good job He’s got his faithful old Church around to put Him right and tell Him whom He can and cannot admit to Heaven.

Seriously though, folks, I don’t really want to diss those amongst you who hold what you might call ‘orthodox’ theological positions and I acknowledge that the body of believers needs to be able to define its boundaries in some ways – a glance round the fruitcake zone surely proves that – but are creeds the rock on which Faith should be built? As we learn more about genetics, sub-atomic particles, relativity, etc., don’t we realise that our intellectual constructs are built merely on the shifting sands of time? OK some intellectual speculation is healthy, desirable and (sometimes) good fun but how much of it is actually necessary to support a living and active faith?

Aren’t the Christians who people admire most – like Francis of Assisi for example – the ones who tried to live their faith by serving Christ through others? And isn’t pontificating (and I use that word deliberately) about the criteria for membership of ‘Club Heaven’ responsible ultimately for mass tortures and executions in Europe and the rape of the ‘New World’? In other words, isn’t it that which has done most to bring the Faith into disrepute?

How many theologians does it take to change a light bulb?
Why bother? Just don’t baptise it and it will burn (in Hell) forever!

[Mad]

[ 10. March 2003, 02:19: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
George Spigot

Outcast
# 253

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Just to let you know I was thinking of posting a similar thread in purgatory. I'm glad I waited, yours is a much better post than one I could have come up with.

In short. I agree.

(Wonder if it's going to be possible to
sneak into the sheep's pen when no-ones looking?)


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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html


Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Funny you should say that - I've just posted the following on another board - I know I'm going to get slaughtered for it, as well:

quote:
My point is this. Whilst you guys are debating the finer points of theology (and TULIP is Calvinism, only part of the reformation, and the reformation is only part of Christianity), and setting up doctrinal boundaries (which you can't agree on), the world moves on, looks on Christianity with disdain, and looks elsewhere. It seems to me that you equate your own brand of fundamentalist Calvinism with Christianity; so any other theological position is heresy, and equate yourself with the font of all knowledge explaining what we poor heretics are too stupid, too godless or too lacking in Biblical knowledge to understand for ourselves.

First it was theistic evolutionists who were beyond your pale. Now we find it's anyone with a whiff of Arminian theology. Who next?

That's me. Spleen vented. Better things to move on to.




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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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rah! hear hear! jesus didn't come to start a religionwith rules and doctrines, he came to show us god's love.

(my second choice of .sig would be :
religion is for people who don't want to go to hell. spirituality is for those who have been there and don't want to go back.)

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!


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faintsaint
Shipmate
# 151

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Right on, Qlib!

And preach it, brother Karl!
[I}(your link doesn't work, however - where'd you say this?)[/I]

I've always felt that (as I've mentioned in the Moby & Bono thread) we'll be pretty surprised at who is (or isn't) in Heaven (should we make it there ourselves). Way beyond muttering 4 spiritual laws or somesuch.

I can't define what salvation is, cos I do believe that there's only one person that can decide that. And it' not me.

fs

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*iancognito*


Posts: 144 | From: Oop North Down Under | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SteveTom
Contributing Editor
# 23

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Bad luck, Qlib. You try and pick a fight and everyone just agrees with you.
Christians, eh?


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I saw a naked picture of me on the internet
Wearing Jesus's new snowshoes.
Well, golly gee.
- Eels

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Gill
Shipmate
# 102

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Now Ihave to go and find the thread that started all this!

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Still hanging in there...

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Ags

Knocked up
# 204

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Nicole,
Totally with you (& with everyone else so far) on this one.
I would never describe myself as "religious" - but "spiritual", yes, very!
Is the reason we all agree, because those who don't are furiously praying for us heretics???

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I think that we are most ourselves at our best, because that is what God intended us to be. The us we really like, the us that others love to be with. Moth

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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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maybe we shocked 'em into silence?

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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ptarmigan
Shipmate
# 138

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I can only agree too. Jesus doesn't appear to have spent most of his time creating intellectual belief constructs defining who was in and who was out. If the gospels are a true reflection he was outrageously inclusive and spent more time healing people than trying to explain creeds or the gospel as a verbal construction.

The introduction to the Athanasian Creed says that unless you wholeheartedly believe every clause of the creed you will "without doubt perish everlastingly". Makes God seem fairly petty.

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All shall be well. And all shall be well. And all manner of things shall be well. (Julian of Norwich)


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Pikachu
Shipmate
# 170

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You - you - heretics!
You people probably do such evil things, like, like - wearing casual clothes in church! Not showing up for meetings! Wearing makeup and (gasp!) dancing! Caring about people no matter what they've done! Staying home with your kids on a Sunday morning instead of going to church! Being clumsy serving the communion! Playing those wicked games like, like Pokemon and visiting those
evil websites like.. like.. well, you know!

But then, maybe all you need to be is a thief on a cross asking for forgiveness from the only one who can truly love you...

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I know Jesus has a sense of humor, He made my cockatoo.

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Elizabeth
Shipmate
# 207

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Well, here's another hurrah for Qlib and the rest. How pleasant to be in the company of other doctrinal heretics. Well said, Qlib.

Of course, you do realize we're all hanging out in Hell, dont' you?

~Elizabeth, having just voiced an opinion in Purgatory on the existence of same

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The Hunger Site is back!


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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Well, here's some dissention.

Some of you, at least, appear to be missing the point about the creeds. They are not the foundation of the faith per se, but rather a summary of what God has chosen to reveal to us throughout the ages, culminating with the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ. Has there been subsequent revelation? Yes, of course. Has there been any more significant revelation? Not a chance in hell. You can NOT get any more substantial revelation of God than God entering into our time and space.

However, as I said, the creeds are a formulation of what God has chosen to reveal to us. They are the quickest and most efficient way of pointing to God, who is and should always be the rock of our faith. They are a shorthand, if you will, of the collective teachings of those who've encountered God, in all the Persons, throughout time.

And the church has been THE primary witness to God throughout the ages. If you are going to dismiss teachings on things that you don't like simply because you think it's placing more hoops in place, I would just point out that scripture was gathered and decided upon by these very same people, so you need to pitch that, too. In which case you are left with absolutely nothing witnessing to Jesus' life, death and resurrection.


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David
Complete Bastard
# 3

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
...And the church has been THE primary witness to God throughout the ages. If you are going to dismiss teachings on things that you don't like simply because you think it's placing more hoops in place, I would just point out that scripture was gathered and decided upon by these very same people, so you need to pitch that, too. In which case you are left with absolutely nothing witnessing to Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

Sorry Erin. We can disagree with the creeds but still maintain a belief in the witness of scripture.

Simply because we may believe that the creeds misrepresent that witness. I'm not saying that I necessarily think this is the case, I just needed to point out the non sequiter.


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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Really. The creeds were already forming in the earliest days of the church, and were codified sort of concurrently with the establishment of the canon, were they not? So how can those men be reliable in selecting scripture that truly witnesses to God's nature and actions, yet be unreliable in interpreting them down to their basics?
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3

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Because formation of the canon was, at its foundation, the recognition of the authority of the authors. Creeds are a distillation of an interpretation of that authority.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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But a majority of the substance of the creeds came from those very same authors whose authority determined their place in scripture.

(Now taking bets as to how quickly this ends up in Purgatory...)


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David
Complete Bastard
# 3

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That's probably true, but it doesn't change the argument.
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Pikachu
Shipmate
# 170

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Hmm, #2 & #3 going at it...
I can understand churches having certain creeds, in order to have a common agreement concerning their own procedures. However, is there anything that you need to get into heaven except accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior? (Of course, some people would disagree with me even on that point.) I mean, what do you need? Jesus and... and..
what?

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I know Jesus has a sense of humor, He made my cockatoo.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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How do you know that Jesus is your Savior? And what do you need saving from?

[edited because something is wrong with my keyboard, and dammit this is one of the perks of putting in all this time]

[ 01 June 2001: Message edited by: Erin ]


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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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you know because you know, not because it's in a book or a creed. after all, the koran is a book. are you convinced by it to become a muslim? the book or mormon is a book... does it convince you? faith comes first.

and after you know then a book or a creed will not change what you know.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!


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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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So it's based on a feeling, then?
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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no, it's based on knowing.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

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Well, as an OFFICIAL non-Christian, albeit one who loves to argue the picky theological details, it's difficult to decide where to jump into this fray. Here's a few comments.

"The church has been THE primary witness to God throughout the ages."
HUH?! I would say that the church has been conspicuously absent for most of the ages, and there are still plenty of places where it isn't the primary witness to God (IMHO).

I'm still waiting for someone to answer Erin's question "What do you need saving from?"

And finally, just whose interpretation of the Creed reflects the real truth of God's message? Yours? The Pope's? Mine? When I get to the "...look forward to the resurrection and the life of the world to come." I always mentally add "Of course, everybody, what do you think we're doing right now!"


Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
no, it's based on knowing.

You still haven't answered the question, so I will repeat it: HOW DO YOU KNOW? Did Jesus come to you and say "well, Nicole, here I am, and these are all the things you need to know about me, and btw, you need saving"? Or did you maybe pick up just the teensiest bit of knowledge of Jesus from -- gasp! -- the church, whose teachings on God and Jesus are summed up in the creeds?

JLG...

Let me rephrase then, to make it a little simpler. The church began long before the ICR, it began with the formation of the Jewish religion. The Jewish history is our history, too, since Christianity was originally a Jewish sect. The church militant, aka the earthly members of the communion of saints, has always been the witness to God.

Also, I grew up going to Catholic school, and even though my theology is decidedly not Roman Catholic, I would say that the pope and I probably interpret the creeds about the same.


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Will
Shipmate
# 356

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Erin,
You sound more lawful than most Jews. Did not Paul preach fervently against this? Therefore do not "creeds" and such go directly against this?

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Shalom, Will.

Posts: 60 | From: Tx. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
KevT
unregistered


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I think Erin has a point.

"How do you know Jesus is your Saviour? And what do you need saving from?"

Well, we need saving from ourselves and the complete lack of any kind of morality that mankind is so good at showing, given half a chance.

And how do we know? Simple answer is that at some point that somebody has told us. Without the witness of the church and without Christian teaching how would any of us even be aware of it today?

But that does not mean that the Church has got it all completely right over the years and every branch of every denomination is guilty of, at some time, choosing its one little bit of scripture to use as doctrine . . .


KevT.


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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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I think it's a matter of carts and horses.

The creeds as 'this is what we believe in a nutshell' - great.

The creeds as 'this is what you have to believe or else' - I have a problem.

The creeds may define Christianity but I do not think they define a Christian. Semantics? Perhaps, perhaps not.

I do think that Athanasius was wrong to start with 'Quiquunque vult...' even if what he said we should believe was correct... it too much smacks of salvation by theology. St Peter at the pearly gates checking us up against Calvin's Institutes

Isn't this getting potentially Purgatorial?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.


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David
Complete Bastard
# 3

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quote:
Isn't this getting potentially Purgatorial?

Yes and no. There's something that will probably be dealt with down here, then we'll see.


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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Erin,
You sound more lawful than most Jews. Did not Paul preach fervently against this? Therefore do not "creeds" and such go directly against this?

Hmmmm... this is interesting. Because I, having gone back through to reread my posts, have not found a single law in any of them. So perhaps you can provide a cite or two to back up your accusation.

I am also extraordinarily interested in how you arrived at the conclusion that a creed, in and of itself, is "law". Basically, in essence, your post says that a summary of belief is law. I have not heard that one before.


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Ian M
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# 79

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Romans 10:9

(hm, which translation shall I choose today?)

"So you will be saved, if you honestly say, 'Jesus is Lord', and if you believe with all your heart that God raised him from death."

Actually there are plenty of other bits of Scripture that impose other conditions or requirements, and they do NOT all add up, to be frank - because I don't honestly think God wanted to give us any absolute means to judge our fellow man. Look at how prescriptive we get even with what he did give us!

Ian


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TC
Shipmate
# 70

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I agree wholheartedly with Ian's comment below:

...because I don't honestly think God wanted to give us any absolute means to judge our fellow man. Look at how prescriptive we get even with what he did give us!

How do other's know they are saved?

TC ...

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'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


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TC
Shipmate
# 70

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Simple answer is that at some point that somebody has told us. Without the witness of the church and without Christian teaching how would any of us even be aware of it today?

Um, I don't think you can make that statement definitively really. Kind of limits God don't you think. If no one spoke, the rocks would [my paraphrase]. I don't deny the important of the church but that is not the only place / way God works.

TC ...

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'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Okay, we're going to take the church out of the world. Meaning no scripture, no witness.

Now, someone tell me how you find out about Jesus. Not some touchy-feely warm fuzzy New Age "God is love, the beauty of the stars tells me so" thing, tell me how you know about this man Jesus. How you know his nature, how you know he lived, how you know ANYTHING about him.


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TC
Shipmate
# 70

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I'm not saying this is ideal, nor is the the norm BUT I find it quite hard to believe that there are not folk out there who have not been exposed to the gospel via the church and it's teaching to have a real experience of God and his Truth.

And I don't mean touchy-feely warm fuzzy New Age "God is love, the beauty of the stars tells me so" . I mean really know it was the God of the Universe. As a first encounter, why not? You can put structure around the experience and ground them in right doctrine then but it doesn't always go the first way.

TC ...

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'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


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TC
Shipmate
# 70

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I'm still curious Erin, how do you know you are saved?

TC ...

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'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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A lot of different ways, actually, some of which are the church's teachings on the nature of Jesus. God knows I don't feel saved a lot of the time. I put my trust in Jesus, and I can only do that on the basis of what he's said throughout the ages. My own feelings are way too unreliable to base the whole thing on that.

Again, though, my question remains: how do you know about Jesus? I don't mean being aware of the existence of God, I mean how do you know about Jesus as a person? How do you know he is The Answer? How are you even aware that he might be?


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TC
Shipmate
# 70

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Ok. I'm with you on the first part. It is not based on feelings. But I agree with Nicolemw [?] who said it is a knowing, an assurance based on what I know] of God's character and my EXPERIENCE of Him in my everyday life. Through the shit and the joy. I just have to say here that a lot of this grounding for me happened outside of a church structure. Too detailed to go into now.

OK, now, how do people know about Jesus beyond the existence of God. Don't know. BUT if God wanted to touch somebody who had to access to church / doctrine / creed etc. etc. could he not make Jesus apparent to them somehow?

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'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


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Nicolemr
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# 28

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tc, its nicolemrw, but don't sweat it... everything after the nicole is just initials, cause usually by the time i sign up for anything just plain "nicole" is taken.

i'll have a more detailed comment for this discussion later, after i've hada chance to think a bit.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!


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Nicolemr
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# 28

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ok, after some reflection, erin, i think you are not asking the question that you really want to know.

i don't think you want to ask "how do you know", because thats a fundimentally unanswerable question, except by philosophers in airy realms i've never ascended to except for philosophy 101 as an elective in college.

i think what you are really asking is "how did you learn". and the answer to that is, i learned through experience, through investigation, and through reflection. i spent my high school years driving my sunday school teacher crazy by questioning every assertion he made, by disagreeing with almost everything, and by thinking and listening.

in college i hung out with mystics, polytheists, and one extremly hypocritical and obnoxious born-again christian who almost ruined the whole religion for me. i took a class in myth and mysticism, and read about experiences had by people from all religious backgrounds...

around that time i had my own direct experience, which btw, had nothing specifically christian about it.

then five years ago, i came into a spiritual fellowship. not christian, not religious at all, spiritual. and there i've met many people whos lives have been saved (quite literally, from death) by god, but not through any church or religion.

which doesn't mean i don't go to church every sunday, and listen to my minister (who does great sermons, even if i don't always agree). because god is there too... and its always good to worship god in community with others, even if you don't agree with them on every thing. but i don't make the mistake that thats the ONLY place to find god.

because i know better.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!


Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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No, I AM asking what I want to know. Again: how do you know that Jesus is the answer? I don’t know how I can break this down any further, but I will try.

You know that Jesus is the answer. Fine. On what information did you base this decision? Somewhere, somehow, you had to figure out that Jesus is the one who can save you. Now, unless he came down from on high and sat there and had a talk with you face-to-face you HAD to get that knowledge from the teachings of the church. Whether you sat in a fundamentalist Bible study or had a one-on-one dialogue with someone who hasn't darkened the door of a church building in ten years is absolutely irrelevant to this. The church is what has preserved and witnessed to Jesus' life, death and resurrection since his Ascension and Pentecost.

God can reveal himself in any way he wants to. IMV, he has chosen to reveal himself most fully through Jesus Christ, who has chosen to reveal himself through the communion of saints. Now, if you can tell me anywhere else that I can get the same depth of knowledge about Jesus' life, death, teachings, etc., I will retract everything I've said thus far. I don't think you could point me in a direction that would give even the basic facts about Jesus, much less enough information for me to say "yep, he’s the one".


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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quote:
You know that Jesus is the answer. Fine. On what information did
you base this decision? Somewhere, somehow, you had to figure
out that Jesus is the one who can save you.

i'm afraid you are making an unfounded assumption here.

this is, after all, posted on the i am not a chritian thread.

jesus is not the answer. jesus is one possible answer. but as i said, i do not make the mistake that my church, or any church, is the only way to find god.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!


Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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I will make a definitive statement here: No one will get to heaven without Jesus. NO ONE. But I don't recall ever saying that Jesus=your local church...
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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erin, i am truly sad for you that you feel that way, and i'm afraid that doesn't leave us anywhere to go in this discussion.

i'm afraid i have to with equal fervor say, you are wrong, and then drop the subject.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!


Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
erin, i am truly sad for you that you feel that way, and i'm afraid that doesn't leave us anywhere to go in this discussion.

i'm afraid i have to with equal fervor say, you are wrong, and then drop the subject.


You can if you want, but I think that's a cheap shot. Sad that I feel what way?


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
frin

Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9

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quote:
erin, i am truly sad for you that you feel that way, and i'm afraid that doesn't leave us anywhere to go in this discussion.

That's rubbish. We have started many a previous discussion with Erin's very statement on the old boards.

quote:
No one will get to heaven without Jesus

Jesus said that no-one would come to the father except through him. So maybe that means only Christians will meet the father, or maybe that's a limiting reading and many people will know the father through Jesus in some other way. (If so, what?).

But to say end of discussion because someone disagrees won't get anyone's thinking anywhere. You can hardly expect "oh I agree too" discussion in Hell.

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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.


Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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yes, but "your wrong, i'm right" isn't going to get us anywhere either. she said her belief, i said mine, i'm not going to change her mind, she's not going to change mine, and i don't see any reason to take it further, since nothing constructives going to come out of it.

besides, debates for purgatory, not hell, right? hells for ranting? well i did as much ranting as i'm gonna'.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!


Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
yes, but "your wrong, i'm right" isn't going to get us anywhere either. she said her belief, i said mine, i'm not going to change her mind, she's not going to change mine, and i don't see any reason to take it further, since nothing constructives going to come out of it.

Uh, Nicole, your parting shot was a condescending "I feel very sad for you" with absolutely NO clarification of what you are talking about. I have the distinct feeling you are misattributing views to me that I do not hold, but you can't be bothered to clarify what you mean.

quote:
besides, debates for purgatory, not hell, right? hells for ranting? well i did as much ranting as i'm gonna'.

Wrong. Debate is as much a part of Hell as it is Purgatory. Hell just has some other things, too.


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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i'm sorry that you think i was condescending erin.

but i'm not getting drawn into a fight. not on this issue.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!


Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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This is not a fight, not even close. It is a debate in the manner of debates that belong in Hell. I do not fight with anyone about religion, it's a waste of time in my book. All I want is clarification. You said you felt sad for me, I want to know why. If you are going to make an ad hominem remark, it's considered poor form to then turn around and try to take the high road.

You feel very sad for me. I want to know why.


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged



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