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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Incompetence 1, Democracy 0.
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Og- *whap* Pay attention, we went over that already!

No. We are still going over it.

You, on the other hand, didn't so much go over it as pass over it. [Roll Eyes]

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
RuthW- *yawn* 'Cept North Korea has shown a willingness to cooperate with the rest of the world, and not a desire to destroy and conquer it like your guy in Iraq.

Zach

Ummm....Zach...since when has not supporting a war on Iraq meant Sadaam is "our" guy??? There are DIFFERENT tactics available to getting rid of Sadaam [anybody try praying lately [Embarrassed] ].

And...North Korea broke off talks with Japan on their nucleur program and refuses to stop it.

In this scenario, the U.S. has chosen, for reasons that seem to have more to do with issues of the First Gulf War, to go after Iraq's regime and is NOT persuing through diplomatic or other means, change of a nutbar regime in a country which WILL have nucleur weapons within a year.

You can't have it both ways Zach. Either admit real politik is involved in these decisions or give up on an illogical course of action. But don't cloak the coming Iraq war with the banner of urgent necessity when it so obviously is not the most urgent or necessary of conflicts.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
Since when?
Well, for starters it admitted it had a weapons of mass destruction program, unlike, well, you know. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
You couldn't have have missed the whole point of what she was saying more, could you?
She said it herself. If an attack on Iraq is necessary, then an attack on North Kores is necessary. It's what she insists on arguing.

quote:
Ummm....Zach...since when has not supporting a war on Iraq meant Sadaam is "our" guy??? There are DIFFERENT tactics available to getting rid of Sadaam
Hey, I'm open to suggestions. Maybe if someone would suggest smething besides "Maybe asking Saddam real nice it would help."

quote:
and is NOT persuing through diplomatic or other means,
No, I heard there is some diplomatic stuff going on between the US and North Korea on the matter on BBC America, and CNN too, I think.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Maybe if someone would suggest smething besides "Maybe asking Saddam real nice it would help."
I pointed you to the Sojourners non violent resistance page ages ago back in Purg.. I don't think that is "asking Saddam real nice", so don't play that card.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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It's been a while, what do they propose again?

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
You couldn't have have missed the whole point of what she was saying more, could you?
She said it herself. If an attack on Iraq is necessary, then an attack on North Kores is necessary. It's what she insists on arguing.

OK. I'll explain where we're going with this, and I'll avoid using complicated words.

If an attack on Iraq is necessary, then an attack on North Korea is MORE necessary. Ergo, there must be a reason other than necessity for attacking Iraq, since simply having an evil regime and weapons of mass destruction is clearly not reason enough for the British and US governments to attack a country. There must be another reason.

QED.

Actually, having an evil regime is plenty enough to have the US and UK make friends with you

*cough* Indonesia *cough* Chile *cough*

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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Alright, but don't you think you should at least allow some time for things with North Korea to play out a bit before you and Ruth insist on an attack?

After all, this business with North Korea's weapons broke just the other day, Saddam has been a cuss for years.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Alright, but don't you think you should at least allow some time for things with North Korea to play out a bit before you and Ruth insist on an attack?

After all, this business with North Korea's weapons broke just the other day, Saddam has been a cuss for years.

Zach

Listen, dimbo.

WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING AN ATTACK.

I'll say that again, in case you missed that.

WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING AN ATTACK.

...and a third time, just to make sure:

WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING AN ATTACK.

God help the gene pool if you ever propagate your seed.

I will say this slowly.

Our point: the governments of the US and the UK are not attacking Iraq for the reasons they have given us. If they were, they would have attacked North Korea and about half the developing world regimes they're allied with years ago. If the reasons we assume are not adequate for us to attack Korea etc (and they clearly aren't), then why the hell are we stomping Iraq?

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Quote from RuthW: US politics overall would be markedly improved if people on all sides would stop saying things like "They are trying to bring the country to its knees," as if they truly did want to see the US brought low instead of, as is sometimes actually the case, having a different view of what would be good for the country.
I agree with this, but it raises a question about something you said earlier in your post;
quote:
True, we don't have Gingrich and the Contract on America.
The Republican slogan you refer to was either the Contract with America or the Contract for America. I don't remember which. Both of these phrases have a positive meaning. The Democrats changed it to Contract on America, which would be a plan to do something bad to America.

You are not living up to your own standards.

Bullshit. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. And taking the phrase "Contract on America" far too seriously, fer cryin' out loud.

There is a big difference between saying that someone has an idea that will be bad for the country - and I think the Contract for/with/on America was just such a thing - and saying that someone is trying to harm the country.

People have ideas that are bad for the country all the time. I think welfore reform was a terrible idea that is now starting to have detrimental effects on a lot of people's lives. This is not saying that the pro-welfare reform people were sitting up late at night trying to think up ways to hurt poor people - it is saying that they were and are absolutely dead wrong about what the consequences of welfare reform would be.

[Whatever you did, I made it work.]

[ 08. November 2002, 23:39: Message edited by: sarkycow ]

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING AN ATTACK.
Ohhh..... then why didn't you just say so?

quote:
God help the gene pool if you ever propagate your seed.
Now, that's just getting personal.

quote:
the governments of the US and the UK are not attacking Iraq for the reasons they have given us
Oh, this is because you don't trust the United States with the responsiblity of dealing with Iraq.

Lemme guess, you think the US is only in it for the oil. [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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Zach82 (82 is your IQ number, right?)

For crying out loud.

WE DID SAY SO! MULTIPLE F***ING TIMES, YOU CHIMP!

Have I at any point ever said that I thought that the US was "in it for the oil"? For that matter, did I not say "the US AND UK"? Have I made any accusations?

Do not accuse me of anti-Americanism, moron. I've been on the American side in every transatlantic s**tfight for the last three years. And there are people who can attest to that.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Like me.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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Actually, Zach, I think the reason for the move into Iraq is for other reasons, but
...again you are missing the point of the arguement. (Are you being willfully thick?)

If the U.S. gives out a reason for going after a regime soon, and then does not apply that reason to a regime that fits the bill even more, would they not be seen to be hypocritical and people would be wondering if there were other reasons.

Geez...give it up Zach..the "they might have weapons of mass destruction soon" excuse is discredited.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
WE DID SAY SO! MULTIPLE F***ING TIMES, YOU CHIMP!
Ohhhh, so you did. Never mind then.

quote:
Do not accuse me of anti-Americanism, moron. I've been on the American side in every transatlantic s**tfight for the last three years. And there are people who can attest to that.
Sorry then, it's the accusation that almost always follows after accusations of deep, governmental secrets being associated with the United States. I apologize.

Just to be clear. What do you think is the real reason for the attack of Iraq?

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
Actually, Zach, I think the reason for the move into Iraq is for other reasons
Oh, do say what they are.

quote:
Are you being willfully thick?
Mmm...... could be.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Sorry then, it's the accusation that almost always follows after accusations of deep, governmental secrets being associated with the United States.

No accusations were made. I simply said that the govenrments of the US AND THE UNITED KINGDOM WHICH WAS NOT PART OF THE US LAST TIME I CHECKED clearly had other reasons for invading Iraq.

Like winning elections, for example (in Bush's case). Or like getting the most powerful nation on your side (in Blair's case). Or like simply proving a point. The point is, there are tons of other reasons why our nationS are about to start a war. Moral qualms are not there, no matter what any of us would like to think.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Are you being willfully thick?
Mmm...... could be.
No s**t.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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I never said the UK was part of the United States.

quote:
Like winning elections, for example (in Bush's case)
Oh, this is evern better. This isn't anti-Americanism, this is even sillier anti-Bushism! I knew you had it in you.

Does it change the matter an iota to you that former President Clinton is fully supportive of an attack on Iraq? Or would you have had any problems with President Clinton leading the attack?

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Does it change the matter an iota to you that former President Clinton is fully supportive of an attack on Iraq? Or would you have had any problems with President Clinton leading the attack?

No, I think Clinton was entirely capable of being just as much of an opportunistic jerk. And it would have won him votes too.

Where does it say that because I don't like Dubya that I have to have liked Clinton?

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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Wood, love, stop feeding it, please. I'm tired.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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....and where the Hell did my other post go?? Too apathetic to retype it. I think Wood and Ruth made my point anyway.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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Another one of those assumptions. Usually anti-Dubya-ites have a love affair with President Clinton.

However, in no trial is "suspicion of ulterior motives" enough to be found guilty as charged.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Another one of those assumptions. Usually anti-Dubya-ites have a love affair with President Clinton.

However, in no trial is "suspicion of ulterior motives" enough to be found guilty as charged.

Zach

Sorry to disappoint. I thought Clinton was too ethically challenged to admire. I think President Bush is a basically honorable guy, but he's just not very smart. So, I say "none of the above."

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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And just so you don't misunderstand AGAIN, Zach, let me spell it out to you. I am not against the war because I have a problem with America (which I don't), nor am I against the war because I have a problem with Bush.

Do you seriously think that I would support it if someone I liked (like, oh, I don't know, Tony Blair?*)?

I am against the war as things stand at the moment because I don't believe that it is - AT THIS POINT - politically justifiable. The personalities and countries involved - and remember, the government of my own is still the US' most ardent supporter - are immaterial.

Show me a government that doesn't have ulterior motives and I'll show you a government that has a great Press Department.

quote:
Posted by Laura: Wood, love, stop feeding it, please. I'm tired.
Me too.

OK. I'll give it a rest now. Arguing with the intellectually impaired/wet-behind-the-ears/incurably parochial (delete where applicable)** is tiring, isn't it?
_________

* And yes, I don't have a problem with Blair, really. He's not proper Labour, but things have gotten noticeably better IMHO, since he was elected. But I don't think he's right to support the States in this.

**I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you may not in fact be stupid and that you just don't know anything yet. I hope you're grateful, Zach.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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Geez...this is chaos theory in action, eh?

Erin has problems voting and....eventually.....

Laura gets tired.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
OK. I'll give it a rest now. Arguing with the intellectually impaired/wet-behind-the-ears/incurably parochial (delete where applicable)** is tiring, isn't it?
Oh, I'm just a smart-mouth; I knew you didn't really want to attack North Korea.

Now, do tell me what "incurably parochial" means.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443

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Even though this is Hell, perhaps we could temporarily find common ground and unite in prayer that the UN resolution that has just been passed will be accepted by Iraq and will lead to a peaceful and just solution.

Greta

Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271

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What she said.

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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Now, do tell me what "incurably parochial" means.

There comes a point when people stop changing feet. Unfortunately/fortunately* Zach has not yet reached this point.

Viki

*Delete as appropriate depending on how you view feeding things.

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Having read an unfortunately large portion of Zach82's posts, I feel compelled to share a disappointing revelation.

The evidence seems to support that, contrary to my previous almost-certain belief, he is NOT actually just a troll. He might actually be taking himself seriously.

I know. I know. It's sad.

My current theory for trying to explain his amazing ability to misconstrue other people goes as follows:
He's astoundingly stupid, but doesn't fully realize or accept it.
However, he's stumbled across the handy trick of merely stating random opinions that relate to at least one word someone else has said. Since being misunderstood annoys most intelligent people, they engage him for the purpose of making themselves clear. This, of course, just gives his trick more fodder to feed off of. His motivation for doing this, I'm guessing, is that by "debating" with intelligent people he feels justified in associating himself with them. Thus, by frustrating clever people, he thinks that in turn makes him clever - or perhaps even cleverer.

Of course, this really just makes him a dickhead, and a joke - but there's no way to explain it to him... <shrug>

(Let's see how that winds you up, fuckwit.)

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
MCC
Shipmate
# 3137

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The U.N. voted unanimously, even Syria.

What will happen next depends, IMO, on what Saddam does, and Bush has made that clear.

Personally, I do not share a lust for war which has caused the divide here.

Neither do I think that Blair has just been a poodle saying, lets go in in support of the U.S. at all costs.

I actually believe that a debate has been going on , with the hawks on one side, and Powell and Blair on the other, to get UN approval before any further action is taken. The all out war approach has not, so far, won the argument. Sorry Zach, your president has listened to the world community.

He has also now persuaded it, including France and Russia, that something has to be done. The world is not taking the "Iraq can go on without anybody doing anything about it" path either.

Lets hope and pray he will disarm, lets hope and pray that many innocent Iraqis do not get killed, lets hope and pray that the damage that would happen to Wetern/Arab relations if a war took place does not happen.

Personally I believe that unless Saddam believes that the consequences of not behaving will be drastic, he will not change his ways. Tough talking and tough unanimous resolutions may help him see that.

Unfortunately, if he does not comply, we may need to put our threats into practise.

But that is not the gang ho "get out of our way view", "we're going to do it whatever" that, you Zach, have voiced on these boards before.

And people who disagree with my or your view are not terrible Anti Americans who would let Saddam get away with anything etc etc either. They just see the consequences, or have a moral view, which you should have respected, and I'm afraid when you did not, and when you did not reply to points that were made to you, you brought the rest on your head.

--------------------
mcc____

Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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If there's a need to do something about Saddam--and I'm not yet convinced there is--I'm not sure that *anything* would work. I'm not sure he would care.

He sees himself as another Saladin (12th-century anti-Crusader who retook Jerusalem).

If he's thinking on that scale, then *anything* anyone might do would play right into his fantasy.

As to why attack Iraq rather than any number of other countries, that's just as tangled as why we shut out Cuba but cozy up to China. [Frown]

We need better options. I don't know what they are, but we need them.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
(Let's see how that winds you up, fuckwit.)
Oh my gosh, you are so close the the truth that I can only scoff in denial. *scoff* [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Sorry Zach, your president has listened to the world community.
Golly, with all the name-calling, people seem to think I favor a mass slaughter, throwing caution to the wind, and colonization Europe style! [Frown]

Well, I can dispell that perception right now. Not only am I happy that President Bush took things through the UN, I favor giving that Iraqi bastard one more chance to comply, though I seriously doubt he's really going to go through with it.

It's alright, just happy I clear clear things up.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged



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