Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What Is A Christian?
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
(Having consulted Alan, I hope that amy will not be offended if I start this thread. The following quotes are of posts that were originally made on the Hospitality thread.)
quote: Originally posted by amy: Okay, I'm sorry, but I don't know where to ask this question as there doesn't seem a place to put this. I am a bit confused because I want to ask a question which many people have told me different answers to...
Are Catholics Christians?
I hope I don't offend Catholics if this is the case by my ignorance, but I would like to know...
quote: Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs: Hi amy! Welcome to the Ship.
The answer to your question depends on how you define "Christian". How would you define it?
quote: Originally posted by Alaric the Goth: The Pope would answer a resounding 'YES!'
Ian Paisley would say 'Noo!'
For myself, I take the view that many are, many are not, and many might be! Before I get jumped on by Hosts, I take the same view regarding most 'Christian' denominations - I am by preference an Anglican, and the above is certainly true of the C of E! I currently go to a Baptist church, and the same could probably be said of Baptists overall.
quote: Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs: Alaric - what is your definition of "Christian"?
quote: Originally posted by Alaric the Goth: A Christian is someone who believes there is an Almighty God, who came to earth as Jesus Christ the Son of God. And that Jesus was crucified and died, his body placed in a tomb, and that he was resurrected to life by the power of God, appearing to many people, before he went to Heaven. The Christian believes that the death and resurrection of Christ provided a way for him/her (and anyone else who wants to receive it) to be forgiven, to be given the gift of eternal life, and to enter into a relationship with God, one that requires time spent in communication by prayer, and also time spent meeting with other Christian believers in a 'church' (this being the gathering of the believers rather than (just) a building).
Now I find that very interesting. It seems to me that "Christian" means "follower of Christ" (originally "Little Christ"). And the things that you mention appear to relate to adherence to teachings of the Church.
Is it your understanding that these things are clarification by the Church of what it means to follow Christ? [ 10. March 2003, 02:09: Message edited by: Erin ]
-------------------- "...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
I have had conversations with Catholics where I have (in my ignorance) used the word "Christian" in contrast to the word "Catholic". The general reaction I have observed is one of bewilderment, as if it would never have occurred to them that "Catholic" was anything other than "Christian".
-------------------- "...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
Karl, it follows for me that 'a Christian' is one who adheres to the basics of Christian belief. I tried to be as inclusive as possible in what I wrote in my definition, aware that people add 'stuff' and say 'You cannot be a true Christian because you don't believe in...'. For myself, what I wrote seems to be the minimum 'belief requirement'. I have no desire for the word 'Christian' to be used sloppily, to mean just about anything, as it too often can be.
-------------------- 'Angels and demons dancing in my head, Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
originally posted by Karl (quoting Dave Andrews) : quote: judge whether our faith is looking towards Him, or away from Him. Direction more important than distance.
But surely part of it is KNOWING whom you are looking at? A Muslim 'looks to' Mohammed as 'The Prophet', and what the Prophet wrote in the Qu'ran 'helps' the Muslim to look to Allah. After The Prophet, Jesus himself is, as far as I know, considered the next most important human being. But Islam views him as 'merely' a prophet, and not the greatest one of those. So a Muslim could look in the direction of Jesus and 'see' a very distorted image/nothing like the 'whole picture' (as far as Christians are concerned). You can't, IMO, look 'at' Jesus very long without looking at His words, as recorded in the Gospels, and there you will find His claims about himself, and about God the Father. And His words stress the importance of having faith/believing. 'Blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed.'
-------------------- 'Angels and demons dancing in my head, Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Steve_R
Shipmate
# 61
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Posted
But Polly, there is an accepted usage of the word "Christian" outside the bible and that is what we are trying to get at. After all the usage of "Baptist" is different in the bible from it's use as a denomination of Christianity.
-------------------- Love and Kisses, Steve_R
Posts: 990 | From: East Sussex | Registered: May 2001
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
I'm sorry Polly, I think that this is a little off track. The original question was reframed from "Are Catholics Christians" so as to have a less offensive thread title. But that is still the basis of the original question.
-------------------- "...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Polly: The church in Antioch only used it as a label for others outside of the church to recognise who they were and what they believed.
(emphasis mine)But Polly, that's the point - if you use the word "Christian" you're using shorthand for a lot of assumed beliefs/practices/etc. Therefore the question on this thread isn't misleading at all - it's asking what this label conveys, and ultimately who should properly use it. In answer to Amy, are Catholics Christians? Flip the question around - are Protestants Christians? Well, some you could say are, some you could say aren't, because there are certain things about their words and actions that suggest they have inappropriately acquired the word "Christian". But always bear in mind C S Lewis' wise comment about the church in Antioch - they were called Christians because they followed Christ, not because they were necessarily any good at it.
-------------------- "He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
A friend of mine recounts this story: a woman is asked, in a non-religious sort of context, if she is a Christian.She replies: "No, I'm an Anglican, thank God!" And now to throw a wrench (spanner) into the works: Can one be a Christian and not be "saved"? Reader Alexis
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Freehand
The sound of one hand clapping
# 144
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Posted
It seems to me that church structures are mostly about control. Statements of faith and other standards are mostly used to silence people or kick them out if they don't match up perfectly to every requirement. That way they can keep their religion from being dilluted by unwanted people, beliefs and expressions. The other role of statements of faith are to define clearly who is and isn't making it into heaven. That way, people don't have to worry about whether they will make it or not. After all, if being a Christian is defined by who is following Jesus, then no one can be sure whether they are a sheep or a goat. After all, being a Christian seems to be about getting the good stuff rather than about loving Jesus. As far as I know, Christian means Christ-like. Perhaps the term Christian should refer to anyone that is Christ like regardless of religious affiliation. Sorry if I sound a little heated. This whole topic really annoys me and I really don't know what the proper definition of Christian should be. The whole definition seems to be wrapped up in judging, which, perhaps, should be left to God. Freehand ps - In my country, Christian generally refers to people that go to church.
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Manx Taffy
Shipmate
# 301
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Posted
I like Carmel am shocked by the question "are Catholics Christian".We might ask that about individuals within any denomination of Christianity but not of one particular denomination that holds mainstream views especially when that denomination is the largest in the world. What is about catholicism that would make people think it is unchristian????? You may disagree with such beliefs as the primacy of the Bishop of Rome or the Real Presence or the Immaculate Conception but at the heart of the catholic faith is the profession of the creeds that I think most would best describe core Christian doctrine. I suspect it is all some form of post-reformation hangover that extreme protestants need to hold on to to justify their break away. One can still hold with the authority of the Pope and worship and follow Christ. I say all the above as an Anglican.
Posts: 397 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I too deplore any hint of questioning whether Catholics in general are Christians. I think there are understandable reasons why there is confusion about this.When I was teaching in universities, I had more than one conversation with Catholic students who distinguished between "Catholics" and "Christians," some of them using "Christian" to mean simply "non-Catholic," but others under the impression that they would be changing religions if they left the Catholic Church and started going to one of the fast-growing non-denominational churches (which are picking up a lot of former Catholics in So Cal). These were all Latino students, and English was a second language for many of them, so that may have been a factor. But a lot of them had been told by the church and/or by their parents that they had to marry Catholics and had been strongly cautioned against worshipping in other churches, especially taking communion, so I thought it was quite understandable that they would see non-Catholic Christians as belonging to a different religion. On the Protestant side of things, I remember being taught (in my American Baptist Sunday School) "Christian" history as follows: first Jesus, then the early church as discussed in the NT, then the Reformation -- the Catholic Church was mentioned only briefly, which made the point of the Reformation rather unclear, but certainly gave us the idea that Catholics were "dodgy" (wonderful word -- think we should import it). These are just mild, contemporary examples. If we consider the history of mutual hatred between Protestants and Catholics, it's not at all surprising that some people are still asking whether Catholics are Christians. One of the great hopes I have for the Ship is that we can do our part to dispel the misunderstanding and suspicion between different groups of Christians that have plagued Christianity for so long. [edited for sense!] [ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: I generally steer clear of purgatory (too many fundies knocking around.)
Host Hat ON As opposed to too many Anglicans? Or too many Catholics? Or too many liberals? Septimus, what you posted is a very quiet example of a swipe. I'm not trying to single you out; I'm just trying get to across how easy it is to say something in an off the cuff way that is going to be a blow to someone. Please handle each other with care, folks. No anti-people comments allowed, as Alan has already pointed out.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Septimus
Shipmate
# 500
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Posted
ruthw: many apologees[grovel mode engaged] as you astutely spotted an off the cuff remark which was meant wryly rather than as a sweeping statement of disregard... hang on... was that the other way round. but absolutely DELIGHTED to be described as "a very quiet example of a swipe"... must have that put on a t-shirt. in fact it was intended as a sort of sotto voce comment on labelling/stereotypes... getting back to the first question, and to re-iterate my earlier point I think a christian can be discerned from their behaviour, by the way they live their life. the belief (aside from the central one in the love of Jesus) often ends up as a red herring.... Imagine a vast Venn diagram. there are many circles, catholic, protestant, etc etc and some of them (GASP) overlap but cutting through them all is the big circle of Christianity (ok maybe it's a three dimensional Venn diagram). Christianity is a way of life, not a badge. [except for those fundies]
-------------------- "The man of 'perfect manners' is he who is calmly courteous in all circumstances, as attentive outwardly to the plain and the elderly as he is to the young and the pretty."
Mrs. Humphrey, Manners for Men
Posts: 442 | From: England's Garden Gnome | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Crœsos: Does this qualify them as Christians? If not, what factors distinguish them from "real" Christians, if we discount doctrine and dogma as disqualifying factors?
Now, I rarely do this but my supressed Evangelicalism is trying to get out so I'm going to have to quote a few passages of Scripture. quote: Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognise them
quote: James 2:17 faith by itself, if it is not accompnied by action is dead
That's enough (my Evangelical tendencies are under control again), I could quote loads more but you get the general idea. A Christian is not defined by beliefs (although some beliefs would probably be outside the bounds of the Christian faith I wouldn't automtically say that people holding such beliefs are not Christian, just probably mistaken). If, however, the actions of people who profess to be Christians run contrary to everything I see as being Christian I would have reason to doubt whether or not they are Christian. However, at that point we start walking on thin ice. I would say the actions of Christians during the Crusades are contrary to what I believe to be Christian actions, yet at the time they were largely seen as the Christian thing to do. Who am I, or who are we in the 21st century developed world, to judge whether what people in other cultures see as legitimate for Christians to do? Having included that caveat, I do find the Christian Identity people abhorrant in propogating racist views, and within modern times they should have no excuse for not realising that these views are not acceptable Christian values. Alan
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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gandalf35
Shipmate
# 934
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Posted
And what about Mormons and JW's they are generally thought of as being upstanding citizens, although thier thoughts on Christ are radically different.
-------------------- Life is like a bowl of cherries... Mmmm cherries...
Posts: 185 | From: If hell exists, I live there. | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Hmmm - I don't play the prooftext game, but this practice does have Biblical roots:John 20: Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." And: James 5 v16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. Even so, even if your theology and understanding of Catholicism were both fully correct, why would this little difference make Catholics 'Not Christians'? It seems like people are looking for reasons to be divisive.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
I think that the biggest problem Proestant, Orthodox and Pentecostal christians have with accepting Catholics as Christians is that when asked what relgion they are Catholic Christians tend to reply Catholic rather than christian.Now we have 2 catholic christians on this board saying they prefer to be identified as catholic rather than christian because they perceive that "chriatian" has negative conontations, please I humbly suggest that you consider that by prefering to be indentified as catholics rather than christians you are sending out a message that catholics are somehow different from christians, and hence the question gets asks "can a catholic be a christian?". I have been an evangelical in the past, and despite the negative images associated with evangelicals, I am happy if I am identified with evangelicals, because have have known (and still know) some wonderful loving evangelical christians, and by identifying with them I hope to project a more positive image of evangelicals - so even though now I am more of a post-evangelical if anyone wants to call me an evangelical I will not take it as an insult. However if asked my religion even in my most evangelical days I was a christian not an evangelical. Now to move on to Mormons and JWs etc. I tend to exclude from the community of Christians those who say that only by following their particular set of beliefs can you be a true follower of "whatever". I see part of following Jesus is inclusiveness (Those who are not against us are for us). So any group that says if you do not believe (or in reality do) what we do you are not a christian, probably is not a christian group. I suppose that cuts out JWs, Mormons, Christian Identity, and several fundie groups, but allows groups who expect you to believe/do certain things but if you do not you can still be a christian e.g. most funadmentalists, those who require apostolic succession, SDAs etc.
-------------------- if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Big Al …. No, no, no, no no! quote: The problem a lot of Chrisitans have with catholics being Christians is as follows. As a Christian I belive that Christ died for my sins as a result I am forgiven, no one else but Christ has the power to do that. Catholics however have confession, nothing wrong with that but then the Priest offers forgiveness (as I understand). I cannot accept as a Christian that no matter how holy a person acts or is they have no power to forgive sins.
The basic problem is that most Protestants don’t have a clue about Catholic belief and practice. People resort to popular prejudice [they worship Mary you know ..] rather than actually taking the trouble to find out what’s true. [Although this also works the other way around]. BigAl, your comments reveal a common misunderstanding but aren't strictly true. The Priest offers forgiveness in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. He doesn't offer you the forgiveness himself. What happens in Confession [or the Sacrament of Reconcilation] is that you and the Priest talk about what's going on in your life, you will pray together and the Priest will suggest things you can do to put things right. Once all this is done, the Priest will forgive you in God's name. It’s actually no different to talking stuff over with a trusted friend, praying it through and being assured by them of God’s forgiveness. Sometimes people need that … I can’t be the only one who sometimes wonders if God’s really forgiven me for x and then asked him about it again just to be sure … If you really want to know what happens and an explanation of why then the following URLs may be useful: Father Pat - Reconcilation This includes wordings used and explains the whole process really well. Catholic FAQs This gives some useful background. Ask a Catholic! An opportunity to ask those questions which you've always wondered about but wouldn't ask a Catholic friend to their face I can't quite believe that we're seriously discussing if Catholics are Christiansas I bet we'd never have such a discussion about Anglicans, Baptists or the like! And I agree with everyone who's basically said that as soon as you define what a Christian is you're bound to exclude someone. That is, after all, the whole purpose of definations. Much as it grieves me to agree with my hubby the word used most commonly to describe a believer in Christ during Biblical times was disciple or follower. Someone who looked at the example that Jesus said and followed it to the best of their ability And that's probably the best defination - it doesn't include or exclude anyone. Which is probably why we uncomfortable with it Tubbs
-------------------- "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Old Hundredth
Shipmate
# 112
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Posted
I lived in France for a year as an English language assistant, and one day a pupil came up to me in the playground. 'Miss', she said, 'are you a Christian..' and I was just about to say yes when she continued '...or a Protestant?' She seemed slightly baffled when I said I was both.In France, despite the official separation of church and state, there is still an underlying assumption, even in officialdom, that anything not Catholic is secular (eg Protestant churches are officially classed as secular buildings). And you are not allowed to give your kids names which don't appear on the almanac of saints' names. Friends of mine (a pastor and his wife) ran into this problem when choosing non-traditional, non-French names for their kids and had to supplement them with a trad French saint's name for the sake of bureaucracy. I think this might have relaxed a bit in recent years but when I first met them in the 70s they had been given quite a hard time by the registrar.
-------------------- If I'm not in the Chapel, I'll be in the bar (Reno Sweeney, 'Anything Goes')
Posts: 976 | From: The land of the barm cake | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Sorry, Astro posted this while I was composing my uber post quote: Now we have 2 catholic christians on this board saying they prefer to be identified as catholic rather than christian because they perceive that "chriatian" has negative conontations,
Yyeess [in her best Jeremy Paxman but I know of Baptists and Anglicans who do the same thing. They don't get asked the same question. The truth of the matter is that there is alot of prejudice on both sides of the Protestant / Catholic divide. But just because it's an acceptable prejudice doesn't mean that people should seek to justify it in some way. [They do this ... they say that ... That's why we say these things] There is a wonderful story about two missionaries - one Catholic and one Protestant - who worked in the same area and met for tea every so often. When one of them got sent home, the conversation went as follows: Protestant: It's been wonderful working together to serve the Lord. I shall miss it. Catholic: Yes I shall too. You serving the Lord in your way and me in His. [Have also heard the story told the other way around]. Tubbs
-------------------- "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Astro: I think that the biggest problem Proestant, Orthodox and Pentecostal christians have with accepting Catholics as Christians is that when asked what relgion they are Catholic Christians tend to reply Catholic rather than christian.
I do not, and have never, known any Catholics who have a problem accepting Protestants, Orthodox and Pentecostals as Christians. quote:
I see part of following Jesus is inclusiveness (Those who are not against us are for us).
If I remember correctly from my A level theology course somewhere else in the Gospels it says exactly the reverse. (Those who are not for us are against us.) For me a Christian is, simply, a follower of Christ. Someone who tries more than occasionally to follow the teachings and message of the Gospels. I often think that some churches (and I mean in the sense of actual buildings with priests in them) would do well to compare their style with the simple, radical message of the Gospels from time to time and see whether what they say and do is in conflict with this. This can apply just as well to people. It is something of a cliche but "what would Jesus do/say" is not unhelpful. I do not believe that the Christian Identity people qualify as Christians. Anyone can call themself one. It is actually living according to the spirit of the Gospels that makes you one.
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Was once at a Churches Together Pentecost service where the highly enthusiastic (charismatic) preacherman was jolly excited about all the Christians coming together to sorship. He asked "Are there any Anglicans?" then Methodists, then Baptists, then Congregationalists. He got good responses from the various reps in the congregation. However, he then proceeded to his next bit when Anglican and Baptist people shouted out, quite correctly, that he'd forgotten to ask if there were any Roman Catholics there as well. Whilst at college, a good friend of mine nearly left a CU pryer meeting because someone else (from a strict Baptist church) prayed for the conversion of Catholics to Christianity. In my old univ town the Anglican church (big, vibrant, charismatic) doesn't join in the March for Jesus anymore. However, it's organised by one of the other churches in the town....the St Winifred's (Roman Catholic) parish church. It really seems to me that some parts of the Protestant church, particularly those who see nothing good between 100 and 1500 CE except for Tyndale, are still fighting 16th and 17th century battles, not having realised what Trent did, not having noticed Vatican II and not realising where Catholicism sees itself. Ok, we have the occasional official pronouncement like Ratzinger's on the validity of other churches, but the reality of the matter is that on local levels, where people actually talk to each other as equals, people from different denominations know that they have common ground. A wise Orthodox monk (who's name I've forgotten) once said, "We may say where the Spirit is - but we cannot say where the Spirit is not." Pronouncements by one group against another that they are or are not "Christians" need to be viewed with extreme skepticism - church history, if it teaches us only one thing, shows that very often such pronouncements come out of ingorance of the others' position, pride and rivalry.
-------------------- "He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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