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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Internet Child Porn-Hundreds Arrested
eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736

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quote:
Your apparent sympathy for pedophiles is frightening.

These peopow, ver scam, the lowest of the low. I've got a capow of kiddies... ..yeh I see 'em Christmas, birfdays.. well ver wan, her muvver won't let me see her no more... ..anyway, one of nonces goes near my kids...

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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!

Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stoo

Mighty Pirate
# 254

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eleighteen, will you get a little sensitivity, for God's sake?

Being terminally stupid, you might've missed erin's comment. I'll repeat it. There are people who read these boards who are victims of child abuse.

We know we're all guilty. We know we all do bad things. Would you really say to a victim of child abuse "well, you know, you did take one too many cakes at dinner, so you're just as bad as that man really"

Theologically, we're all sinners... blah de blah de blah. Don't seem to recall Jesus putting theology above compassion, to be honest.

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This space left blank

Posts: 5266 | From: the director of "Bikini Traffic School" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sophs

Sardonic Angel
# 2296

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quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
quote:
Your apparent sympathy for pedophiles is frightening.

These peopow, ver scam, the lowest of the low. I've got a capow of kiddies... ..yeh I see 'em Christmas, birfdays.. well ver wan, her muvver won't let me see her no more... ..anyway, one of nonces goes near my kids...
Are you really comparing divorces/broken marriges to pedophilia?

you are the most insensitive person i have ever had the misfortune to come across...did you even read erin's post? there are people who have been abused on these boards How the fuck do you think they may feel after your comments?

What about people who've had a divorce, who don't see their kids?

Are you completly thick or just have your head completely stuck in you arse?

(and i very rearely write posts like this...see how much you have pidded me off?)

Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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Eleighteen (and to a lesser extent Garden Hermit),

I cannot believe a sentient being with half a brain and an ounce of compassion would post the kind of steamingly ingorent clap-trap that you both have posted here. It’s attitudes like yours that

A) Enable people to comfortably dismiss child abuse (and other sexual crimes) as “not really resulting in much suffering”

b) Discourage people from reporting such events because comments like yours just reinforce the feeling that no one will either take them seriously or do anything about it

c) Encourage people to continue to believe that child abusers are nasty old men in raincoats who smell bad rather than normal people that you may even * gasp * go to the pub with

d) Child abuse and the like only happens in nasty, lower class homes not nice middle class ones

e) That, somehow, a child brings it on themselves

And so the cycle continues ….

Jesus had a lot to say about sin and the nature of sin. He also had a lot to say about compassion and caring for others. And he also had a lot to say about children and what would happen to those who were bad to them.

And as Erin and Stoo have already said – there are people on these boards who have suffered the kind of abuse (either directly or indirectly as it’s something within their family) that you dismiss so lightly and continue to joke about even though you’ve been asked to stop You are a pieces of shit of the first order. And you should apologise before you clutter up the boards with anymore of your crap.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I dunno... what kind of "real human emotion" is involved in sticking your wick into some innocent six-year-old?

I didn't express myself very well. I was thinking more of the emotional reactions of the victims caused by the specified offences rather than what might be going through the mind of an offender. I could be wrong but I'd imagine that if anything, an offender would have rather a lack of emotion (except possibly anger) rather than a capacity for it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

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What really staggered me about the news reports was the numbers.

Apparently the CIA passed names of 7,500 offenders collected from internet data to the British police.

Think on that for a moment. the entire current prison population in the uk is around 70,000.

If the police catch and charge all these people the prision population will go up by 10%.

And that's just names collected through one website. You can pretty much garuntee that's scratching the surface.

Also, my betting would be that most of those 7,500 are not actually regular physical abusers of children. My reasoning being that some guy who is able to abuse his son/daughter at will has covert access to the real thing without risking detection getting pictures off the net.

The scale of the problem therefore becomes mind boggling.

I'm stunned by some of the things written on this thread. I find some of eleighteen's comments indefensible, yet at the same time, I share his concern that there is something deeply distressing about the demonisation and "get out the pitchforks" fervour that seems to surround child abuse.

I can't put my finger on why, and I confess to feeling it too, but it seems to me that in the secular world, child abuse is practically the only universally agreed upon "moral standard".

I find there to be something slightly odd about that. My feeling is that the devil is having a field day with child abuse on both sides of the fence. Hurt children, messed up evil abusers and self-rightous indignation of "respectable" citizens.

When you consider the recent revelation of the jessica and holly police officers being exposed as being involved in child porn, maybe you will see what I mean? It seems to be one area where the devil reigns supreme.

matt

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3M Matt.

Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109

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Erin, I'm joking about a 'register' of sins. No sin is better or worse than another.

I too have been a victim of adultery. My Dear John letter read ..

Dear Garden Hermit,

I'm sorry but I've left you. I've gone to live with X who is the father of our 2 year old Y. I'm sorry that you're not the father of Y like you thought. Your dinner's in the oven

.. which led to my seeing the inside of two mental hospitals. I know of several men who killed themselves when they had similar letters.

I am now happily re-married with twins so no sympathy please but the scar is still there.

But virtually all child abusers have been abused themselves. They too are victims. But I'm sure we agree we all wish to break this circle.

However I'm particularly worried about men, probably through guilt or maybe fear of discovery, kill their victims.

We've got a chance of healing an abused child, no chance with a dead one.

There are also a lot of 'child abusers' who through guilt phone organisations like the Samaritans (an anonymous listening service in the UK) to confess their sins.

They are often desperate to stop but we have no way of helping them in this country unless they've been through the courts.

This debate needs to be rational not witch-hunting if we are going to improve the situation.

Pax et Bonum

Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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Matt the Mad Medic wrote:

quote:
I'm stunned by some of the things written on this thread. I find some of eleighteen's comments indefensible, yet at the same time, I share his concern that there is something deeply distressing about the demonisation and "get out the pitchforks" fervour that seems to surround child abuse.
And I would agree with that. But if you want a discussion about why society demonises child abusers (and always has - a nonce has always been the lowest of the low in jails) then you need to start one in Purg. And choose your words very carefully. Rather than post stuff like this:

quote:
These peopow, ver scam, the lowest of the low. I've got a capow of kiddies... ..yeh I see 'em Christmas, birfdays.. well ver wan, her muvver won't let me see her no more... ..anyway, one of nonces goes near my kids...
[Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

Tubbs

PS Trip trap

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

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Can I just add to my additional post, that I saw an article on Daytime Tv about major chain stores now stock "sexy" underwear (thongs and the like) for pre-teen girls?

And anyone who knows a pre teen kid knows they are crazy about the likes of Britney Spears. The girl who does videos in leather bondage singing "I'm a slave for you.....".

Then we have a society that gasps in mock horror at pregnant 12 year olds.....*hangs his head in dispair*

matt

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3M Matt.

Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34

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quote:
Originally posted by Stoo:
Being terminally stupid, you might've missed erin's comment. I'll repeat it. There are people who read these boards who are victims of child abuse.

I am one of them, and I know other shipmates who have been abused too.

I was abused by a 'family friend'. I was 12 years old at the time. It seriously effected my schoolwork, how I related to all males, my ability to trust people, my ability to accept love, my self-esteem, my self-image... Yet what happened to me was pretty much nothing in comparison to others. I have no idea how people who have suffered years of systematic abuse cope.

My hope is that people do not see the perpetrators of such crimes as being monsters. Monsters are creatures who do what they do because that is their natures. Child abusers are humans who choose to carry out these acts. They choose to do so because they get something from it. They are very dangerous people, they are very difficult to treat, and often re-offend. They should never be put in a position where they are near children or vulnerable people again.

I know that it isn't hellish, but I give my sincere thanks to all here who do their best to safeguard the safety of children, those who have worked with offenders, helped in prosecuting, or have worked with children and adults who have been so badly hurt.

I offer up a special prayer of thanks to the woman who listened to my sobs and tears as I talked with her about the abuse that I suffered. If it were not for her I very much doubt that I would be married, or have children. Thanks to her and all like her.

bb

Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Good, GH, some rational points.

Not like me to agree with Matt TMM, but for once, (we'll leave aside differences as to what we think Old Nick is).

I agree there needs to be somewhere that people who find they have paedophilic desires, but do not wish to act upon them, yet fear they might, can turn. I think you've got an impossible situation - be lenient, and justice is undermined (and folk's anger and likelihood of vigilanteism increases); be severe, and you risk offenders taking unpleasant steps to hide their tracks.

Sorry. I have no solutions.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Ah, I see, Ariel. I wasn't trying to play down the effect that other sins/crimes have. My point was to show that child abuse and molestation have catastrophic effects on their victims and families. My parents are divorced, so I know the blow that can have on a person. Yeah, it sucks, but you know what? Looking back on the whole thing, it was the right thing to do. Not the easy thing, because it happened after many years of marriage, but the right thing. Their marriage was irretrievably broken, and no amount of counseling could have changed that. The pre-divorce environment that I grew up in was not happy or illustrative of functional relationships. And I don't blame them for that, that's just how it was.

However, it is clinically insane to maintain that the repercussions of that divorce are on par with the repercussions of an adult who has violated a child's fundamental right to grow up safe, happy, innocent and loved. What kind of world is it that equates such a heinous act with recognition that you have not succeeded in an equal partnership?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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Thank you GH. But as for you EL ... [brick wall]

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Tubbs:
Thank you GH. But as for you EL ... [brick wall]

Tubbs

I forgot to add. GH, I'm sorry I lost my temper with you. But EL, the comments still stand. Trip trap

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

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quote:
However, it is clinically insane to maintain that the repercussions of that divorce are on par with the repercussions of an adult who has violated a child's fundamental right to grow up safe, happy, innocent and loved. What kind of world is it that equates such a heinous act with recognition that you have not succeeded in an equal partnership?
I think the arguement was somthing like..stepfathers are more likely to be abusers of children than natural fathers, divorce leads to step-parentage, therefore divorce is a driving force behind increasing child abuse.

I suppose it's also part of a more general argument that breakdown of nuclear family is having a profound impact on our whole society and that a spin-off of that is increase in child abuse.

If what is being said amounts to "The smaller things cause the bigger things" then it's no doubt true. But, as you say, you can't on the basis of that say that the smaller things are worse in themselves.

matt

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3M Matt.

Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
quote:
However, it is clinically insane to maintain that the repercussions of that divorce are on par with the repercussions of an adult who has violated a child's fundamental right to grow up safe, happy, innocent and loved. What kind of world is it that equates such a heinous act with recognition that you have not succeeded in an equal partnership?
I think the arguement was somthing like..stepfathers are more likely to be abusers of children than natural fathers, divorce leads to step-parentage, therefore divorce is a driving force behind increasing child abuse.

I suppose it's also part of a more general argument that breakdown of nuclear family is having a profound impact on our whole society and that a spin-off of that is increase in child abuse.

If what is being said amounts to "The smaller things cause the bigger things" then it's no doubt true. But, as you say, you can't on the basis of that say that the smaller things are worse in themselves.

matt

Interesting line of arguement but ... if you also look at the greater awareness of child sex abuse and the like now compared to what it was, say in the 70's - that would also help explain the rise in reported cases. (According to a recent documentary police first thought two children -Susan Blatchford, 11, and Gary Hanlon, 12 - in the "Babes in the Wood" murder case had died of cold rather than as a result of being attacked by Ronald Jebson)

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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Many of the men I dealt with in prison were in their 60s and 70s, having been abusers for many years but only charged when adult victims plucked up the courage to report what had happened.

We can't know if it is any more common now, but the fact it is easier to recognise and report may result in a greater conviction rate without any increase in offences.

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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Oh, and the 'fact' quoted above that most abusers are the victims of previous abuse is not borne out by serious research. So if anyone reading this is worried that in addition to everything else they have gone through, they have to worry about becoming abusers - you don't.

Sexual abuse is to do with inadequacy, low self esteem, lack of empathy and a desire for power. Perpetrators start with small and apparently victimless acts - like looking at child porn - and as they escalate their activity they justify it to themselves in the same way - the people they have abused are not really victims becasue they enjoyed it/asked for it/wanted it then changed their minds etc.

Take notice of what BB has bravely shared. The effect is absolutely devastating on victims, families, communities.

The only link with step parenting is that child abuse is rarely opportunistic but usually planned over a very long time. This involves winning the trust of people who look after young children so you are allowed time with them and the children are believed to be making it up if they say you have hurt them, because you are such a trusted member of the community.

Churches in the UK used to offer a very easy way of getting to such a position of trust. Another way is to win the trust of a single mother and become a friend of the family or a boyfriend.

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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It is very useful to have people on the Ship who know about this subject professionally. Because the rest of us only have the 'facts' provided in the media to go on, and it is hard to know which are true and which are wildly exaggerated (I had taken the 'abusers were often once abused' notion as fact, for example). So please continue to share your expertise with us and put right the inaccuracies, it is greatly appreciated.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Obnoxious Snob

Arch-Deacon
# 982

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One of the aspects of this current crisis regarding the extent to which child abuse images are downloaded(lets not kid ourselves-that is what pornographic pictures of children are-abuse from first to last-and if you download this shit, you are an abuser of children), is the reality that it reveals, yet again. Children are most in danger, not from the evil and predatory stranger but from families and friends in whom they have put their unconditional trust. And the flagrant breaking of this unconditional trust by adults has consequences for that child's development and hope of a flourishing life which are incalculable.

It makes me ask questions about Christian notions of the family which continue to stress that it is the family which is the foundation of a safe and secure environment in which our children can lovingly grow. Is this true when so many families, seemingly respectable and moral, contain dark secrets as to how their children are not only nurtured but kept safe. For instance, there is some research, and don't ask me where I read it, that the more overtly moral and religiously conservative and authoritarian the complexion of the family is(particularly residing in the father), the more likely it is that issues of child abuse will not only be unacknowledged but actively denied. A Recent Panorama programme concerning the wide spread denial of child abuse amongst Jehovah Witnesses is a case in point.

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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'

Christopher Fry

Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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Exactly, Arch. [Not worthy!]

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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And there simply isn't a mass of concern about 'child abuse' - what there is public concern about is organised paedophilia, which makes up a tiny amount of the amount of child abuse which goes on - the vast bulk of which is within families and by those known to the children, and the victims are more likely to be young girls.
It seems to me that there is anything but concern and concentration on that sort of child abuse.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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To say it mostly happens in the family is a complete red herring. It is not the same as saying most children are more at risk from family members than from those outside. If your family does not contain paedophiles this does not mean your child is not at risk, sadly, s/he could be at risk from a member of a friend's family or from another trusted adult.

If we're talking about sexual abuse (which I presume we are) you can't divorce the two. There aren't two sorts of paedophiles - those who abuse in the family and those who abuse strangers - between whom those enforcing the law need to choose. Those abusing in families look for new victims once their relatives grow up, these will be outside the family but maybe not too far outside. Paedophilia is a behaviour pattern. 'Organised paedophiles' often organise things involving their own children or grandchildren as they are the most easily available to them.

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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And they use their own children to supply their paediphile friends.

And if their is paedophilia around in a family, there is usually a plethora of other kinds of abuse, too.

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London
Flickr fotos

Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34

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There are patterns of abuse that 'flow' down the family tree. In this pattern a person will abuse their eldest child, and then disgard in favour of a younger child. This will continue, with nieces and/or nephews, then on to grandchildren and great-neices and/or nephews. It is in situations like this that the family will often clam up and make outcasts of anyone who dare make any allegations.

Of course, it is not simply just young girls that are abused by males in the families, or step-families. Men abuse boys as well, and women also abuse children.

If you are a parent with young children:
  • Be loving and trustworthy. Let your child know that you trust him/her, and that they can share any secrets with you.
  • Teach them that their body belongs to them, and that they can accept hugs and kisses, or reject them.
  • Teach your young children that if people touch them and they feel unhappy or uncomfortable about it then they should tell you.
  • Teach them that people should not be touching them in their private areas. The easiest way to explain that is to talk about the part of the body covered by swim-wear.
  • Teach them about 'good secrets' and 'bad secrets'. Good secrets are things like suprise birthday parties. Bad secrets are the 'Don't tell or you will get in trouble.', 'This is our little secret.'
Don't go overboard and start frightening your children. Be gentle with them, and be consistent.
bb

Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109

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For information there is a book I've read written by Adrian Plass about a curate who lived on the Isle of Wight. The curate was, I believe, sexually abused by his single mother when he was very young, and after reading the first disturbing chapter it took me a month before I could pick it up again. I'm sorry I can't remember the title but this guy through much pain eventaully had a successful healing ministry.

We do as a Society seem to be living with Sex 'in our faces' all day on billboards, top shelves, newspapers and TV. The only news about The Royal Family that makes the newspapers is sexual.

I noticed on the way home yesterday a Magazine in WH Smith with a woman on the front (probably 20) made up to look like a 13 year old schoolgirl in uniform sucking a lolly.

Pax et Bonum

Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266

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Lets be clear about several statistical points.

The number of biological fathers sexually abusing their daughters (or sons) is low. Most family abuse is from stepfathers, stepbrothers, uncles, cousins. Family friends and adults in authority are also high on the list. Abuse by the biological dad, when it occurs, is more likely to be damaging. Which is unsurprising, really.

There is a constant hope by researchers that they will uncover that religiously conservative, authoritarian fathers are the most common abusers, because that fits the prejudice of those doing the research. I don't believe anything which stands up to scrutiny has come out, but I admit I have not interested myself in the research in the past ten years. (I became disillusioned as more and more of the research experts in the field turned out to be abusers. I kept having to throw away expensive texts as unreliable. That is something I have on impression, not statistically.)

Interestingly, merseymike, the numbers of boys and girls abused is more equal than you might think. There are many more adult molesters of girls, but they tend to have few victims. Molesters of boys (I think the terms homosexual and heterosexual are misleading when talking about abused children. Not that there is nothing to the distinction, but that they obscure more than they reveal.) are much fewer in number but tend to have hundreds of victims. I have not heard any satisfactory explanations of this, and because it doesn't particularly give ammunition to any prejudice, we may have to wait long until research on the topic is very far-reaching.

I have heard many speculations about this, but they impress me as attempts to fit the data to the theories.

As of a decade ago in the US, about 40% of child molesters had themselves been molested. Molesters like to think of themselves as sexually impulsive, but are better described as opportunistic. Proof of progression from pornography to live abuse is tenuous, but not non-existent. There is some connection demonstrated. But the connection of substance abuse to events of molestation is quite high. Even though I personally believe pornography is mental rehearsal -- for some, rehearsal of a play which never opens -- I would give an offender a pile of porn before I allowed him one beer.

One intriguing bit in the histories of abusers of both boys and girls is the large percentage of perps who saw their mothers having sex with someone other than their fathers. There are too many confounding factors to make any linear conclusion, but it is, as I said, intriguing.

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formerly Logician

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Presleyterian
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# 1915

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Thanks, Arietty and logician, for your perspectives on the issue. And thank you, Babybear, for your example of courage.
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Merseymike
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# 3022

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Sorry, I didn't explain myself clearly enough. The 'popular view' of paedophilia is still the furtive , lonely man hanging about outside the school gates - who is part of a 'paedophile ring'. This is very much the image presented in the tabloid press, and I was trying to contrast the reality, which is that child abuse can take place in many different circumstances than that which fulfils the popular /press construction of 'the paedophile'

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Merseymike
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# 3022

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Logician : I think the problem with the statistics is that the number of child abusers who have actually been caught is miniscule - I do agree that it is youth which primarily appeals, rather than gender, but I would also say that the link which has often been maintained by those with such an aim, between homosexuality and paedophilia, has made it more likely that those who primarily abuse boys will be caught, since somehow that appears to be regarded as 'more serious'. Or perhaps its just part of the broader attempt to link paedophilia and homosexuality - something which makes me very angry.

This is becoming a rather purgatorial discussion, so I had better cease...

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote from logician
quote:
The number of biological fathers sexually abusing their daughters (or sons) is low.
I have heard that the biological fathers who do abuse their children were not around the child during its infancy, or had nothing to do with its hands-on care.

The idea is that taking care of the most basic needs of a helpless infant arouses a feeling of protectiveness which inhibits later abuse.

Does anyone know whether this is true?

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Assistant Village Idiot
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# 3266

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MM, I can understand your defensiveness on the issue, and thought I had chosen my words carefully enough to not give a false impression or accusation. If I failed at that, I apologise.

I suspect you are correct that there is a significant minority of people who react more strongly against same-sex pedophilia. But even among that group, I think many would recant when confronted with the question "Is it worse?"

Moo, the theory sounds plausible, but I know of nothing to support it. I do know that in the population of bio fathers who molest daughters the alcoholism rate is very high.

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formerly Logician

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Merseymike
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# 3022

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I'm not being defensive, logician - just accurate.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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This interview with Moors Murderer Myra Hindley (now deceased) gives a flavour of the mindset of someone who abuses children. It is not sensational or distressing - just the observations of a remarkably insightful journalist (who is talking about the possibility of redemption among other things) and how Myra Hindley tried to win her over.

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

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Huia
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# 3473

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As someone who was molested by both my father and an older brother, I have read this thread with interest (and with tears streaming). Being a relative newcomer to the Ship I wasn't quite sure how the discussion would go, but I want to thank shipmates for the sensitivity most have shown.

It feels like a huge risk posting this, but I wanted to say the (unhellish) thank-you.

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Obnoxious Snob

Arch-Deacon
# 982

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
As someone who was molested by both my father and an older brother, I have read this thread with interest (and with tears streaming). Being a relative newcomer to the Ship I wasn't quite sure how the discussion would go, but I want to thank shipmates for the sensitivity most have shown.

It feels like a huge risk posting this, but I wanted to say the (unhellish) thank-you.

Thank you so much, Hiua. Believe me, I know how much courage your post took. Thank you again. And a warm welcome.

[Angel]

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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'

Christopher Fry

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Thank you, Huia.

I hope that reading this thread has helped the healing prcess a little.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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Welcome to Hell, and to the Ship, Huia. Take time to look around, read threads from all the boards, and post where and when you wish [Smile]

Thank-you for your honesty and bravery here.

Viki, hellhost

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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Assistant Village Idiot
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# 3266

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Huia

Welcome. You will find things written that make you wince, but I think your experience here will be similar to your experience across the board.

I am a lousy therapist, but part of my job is steering people away from interventions which will cause more harm than good. Please correspond if you want an objective opinion on the therapy/no therapy/which therapy questions, and the wrestle with it/bury it questions.

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formerly Logician

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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34

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I think that as more people say "I was also abused." it makes it harder for people to cling to their untrue 'facts' and their preconceptions of who child abusers are.

I have found that healing takes a huge amount of time. There have bee a couple of times when I read that thread that I was sobbing.

My tip is that if the consequences of abuse are affecting everything you do, then go seek qualified professional advice. If there are 'eruptions', then deal with them as they come along. Don't go digging, but when they come to the surface, do something about it. That is what I have done, and it has worked pretty well for me.

The other night I suddenly remember so many details about the surroundings. It brought lots of memoried flooding back. Then I 'saw' him, for the first time I saw him through 'adult eyes'. He was a small, almost fraile man, very lonely. I found myself alternating between being full of pity for him and being very angry that anyone could treat a child in that way.

bb

Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Obnoxious Snob

Arch-Deacon
# 982

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quote:
Originally posted by logician:
Huia

I am a lousy therapist, but part of my job is steering people away from interventions which will cause more harm than good. Please correspond if you want an objective opinion on the therapy/no therapy/which therapy questions, and the wrestle with it/bury it questions.

Tell me, Logician, what actually qualifies you to offer an 'objective' opinion? I have wondered this about many of your threads. You seem to believe you possess a wisdom many of us that is somehow irrefutably and objectively verifiable. How it does it feel to feel you are so 'objectively' right so much of the time? Isn't an 'objective opinion' a tautology?

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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'

Christopher Fry

Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Obnoxious Snob

Arch-Deacon
# 982

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a wisdom many of us find barely attainable is what I thought I was saying in the middle of the last thread. Sorry

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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'

Christopher Fry

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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His profile says 'Psychiatric Social Worker' but whether you think that qualifies him to comment, Arch-, probably depends on your view of Psychiatric Social Workers!

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Assistant Village Idiot
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# 3266

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Well, I think "objective opinion" is somewhat self-contradictory, Arch- and I will try to eliminate it from my vocabulary. The phrasing "I have a position..." would have been better, or "disinterested opinion."

As to my knowledge of things -- one person's Renaissance Man is another's dilletante, eh? I know that my arrogant tone is off-putting, and allowing that to show through (for it is unfortunately the Real Me) is a conscious decision. I spent the years between 20-35 being so desperately polite and circuitous that I was not understood. I decided to risk the opposite problem, of being offensive but at least clearly understood.

As to the issue at hand, I have been a psychiatric social worker on a variety of acute-care units at a public psychiatric hospital for 25 years. This makes for a total of some 5,000 patients. I have as a natural consequence known dozens of sexual offenders and hundreds of victims. I have some graduate training related to the field. I read, I listen, I seek out people who really know things. I used to go to conferences as well, but that was a decade ago. Most of my patients have Serious Mental Illnesses, personality disorders, neurological problems, and/or addictions, so I can apply a general knowledge as well. I have to know more than a smattering of a score of subjects to do my job.

All the above qualifications could also be listed by any number of prize idiots, and I know some. So the credentials mentioned above are really, not much. Very often I am quoting people I know who are experts when I make definitive statements. If I say "exploratory therapies which seek to uncover and re-engage past traumas are dangerous," I have not done any research and am no theorist. I simply report what is now common knowledge among the people who most effectively treat this population.

Therefore, it would be silly to use mealy-mouthed language and say "some people believe that there are risks as well as potential benefits to so-called "uncovering" therapies, and you might want to consult with a qualified professional before trying this." It would also be cruel, because it would not be a stern enough warning. You might find a "qualified" professional who would tell you what a great idea it was to relive traumas to "deal" with them, you would have a psychiatric crisis, and possibly end up in the care of someone like me. I have similar information on other therapies.

So I don't use evasive language. I tell people flat out "Don't do this. Bad for you." I don't apologise in the least for sounding/being arrogant. I'm not blowing smoke: I know the answer to that question.

I usually avoid the threads where I have no knowledge. For example, I haven't looked at the Pronoun/"She"/Referring to God thread. I have nothing to offer. I don't particularly care about the answer.

I hope I have been clear on this thread when it is that I know things, when I think them likely, and when I really don't know.

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formerly Logician

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Huia
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# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
I think that as more people say "I was also abused." it makes it harder for people to cling to their untrue 'facts' and their preconceptions of who child abusers are.
the surface, do something about it. That is what I have done, and it has worked pretty well for me.
----------
The other night I suddenly remember so many details about the surroundings. It brought lots of memoried flooding back. Then I 'saw' him, for the first time I saw him through 'adult eyes'. He was a small, almost fraile man, very lonely. I found myself alternating between being full of pity for him and being very angry that anyone could treat a child in that way.

bb

What you say makes so much sense to me babybear. One of the reasons I posted was because of the hidden nature of abuse. It's important for me to speak my truth, but I am careful only to do so when I feel safe and am feeling strong in myself.

I visited my family home some time ago and saw my father as a defeated, old man and I too felt both anger and pity.

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34

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quote:
Originally posted by logician:
So I don't use evasive language. I tell people flat out "Don't do this. Bad for you."

That sort of answer is used by parents with their two year old child! It that leaves people asking "Why?" What you term the "mealy-mouther answer" is actually of far more help because it gives the answer to "why?".

I don't doubt your professional knowledge and have found many things that you have said on this thread to be very helpful. However, there are many people on the Ship who are like me, and want to weigh the pros and cons. I want to take informed decisions, but if the information is simply "Don't do it, tis bad." then I can not take a decision based on the information, I have to base it on trust, and as you will know people who have been abused tend to have a problem with trust. If you give reasons I can go off and read articles etc on the subject, and then come to an informed opinion.

Tis also a shame that you one visit threads where you have knowledge. There are many interesting things to be learned from listening to shipmates.

bb

Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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Logician said,
"All the above qualifications could also be listed by any number of prize idiots, and I know some. So the credentials mentioned above are really, not much. Very often I am quoting people I know who are experts when I make definitive statements. If I say "exploratory therapies which seek to uncover and re-engage past traumas are dangerous," I have not done any research and am no theorist. I simply report what is now common knowledge among the people who most effectively treat this population.
Therefore, it would be silly to use mealy-mouthed language and say "some people believe that there are risks as well as potential benefits to so-called "uncovering" therapies, and you might want to consult with a qualified professional before trying this." It would also be cruel, because it would not be a stern enough warning. You might find a "qualified" professional who would tell you what a great idea it was to relive traumas to "deal" with them, you would have a psychiatric crisis, and possibly end up in the care of someone like me. I have similar information on other therapies."

Logician, it depends what you mean by "uncovering therapies". There are plenty of people who have experienced abuse so dreadful that it has been repressed or suppressed so that they could survive and get on with life.

The abuse memory pops up later very often, after that wonderful defence is outdated. So it needs to be carefully, safely and respectfully addressed. And since a child's memory is different (size, knowledge etc) from an adult's memory in some ways, this is confusing and scarey.

When a person is suffering because memories are buried and are surfacing naturally, they need good, solid, loving and professionally competent help.

I don't know where you get the "common knowledge" bit from. What do you mean?

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London
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Genie
Shipmate
# 3282

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My question would be: common knowledge for whom? (NB - I realise this is generalising from a sample of one, and can't be taken as an indictment of the whole profession. However the individual involved was the only individual who dealt with young people in the fairly sizeable town in which I lived)

I was under the 'care' of a social worker who specialised in psychiatry for the year I turned 18. In that year, my faith in mental health professionals died, as I was patronised, marginalised, hassled, ignored and messed around by constant rearranging of appointments. If that woman had had her way, I would have been forced to abandon my A levels in the exam year and been sectioned to a psyche ward. The only thing that stopped her was that I had not yet turned 18, and my parents were able to fight her on my behalf.

I realise that I have only a sample of one in my experience. But the fact that there are any people at all in that position of authority with so little empathy and so little intelligence frightens me.

Who is your 'common knowledge' common to? To respected and intelligent experts in their field, or moronic automatons who specialise in attempting to shred people's lives "for their own good"?

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Alleluia, Christ is risen!

Posts: 762 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109

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I know a man who used to run a Care Home who has just been sentenced to prison for child abuse that happened 25 years ago.

Two of his former charges gave evidence against him. Both have long criminal records. One has already given evidence against another man, who was found guilty. The abused person then received a large payout from the organsiation that ran the home.

The trial was down to the word of one man against the 2 others. He believes that the jury just didn't listen and that they were so horrifed by what the allegations were that they didn't listen to the evidence.

He pleads his innocence, in his view saying that these men were never abused at all, but have discovered a 'gravy train'.

I can't prove whether he's guilty or not, but I wonder how many innocent men are being sent to prison for crimes that don't exist.

Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Logician, I think it would be very helpful if you indicated the source of your specific information.

In the case of 'uncovering' therapy, you could say something like, "Every/many/most psychotherapist at the hospital where I work believes this therapy can be harmful. We have seen patients who would never have had to be admitted to the hospital if they had not been subjected to uncovering therapy."

When I evaluate a post, I want to know the source of the information. Flat statements don't cut it for me.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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