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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Depression
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Doug
That is my take on SOME forms of depression as well. There are other forms, chemical, chronic anxiety, existential angst etc. etc. Not all these forms are susceptible of the same solution. On your example though, our culture doesn't easily allow people to be angry. Christianity hasn't been too good about anger either. Being angry is OK so long as you can tag it and channel it. The alternative (repression) is far worse and psycchologically very damaging as you yourself have said. I endorse that from my own experience as well. The key warning indicator is if we feel that our love and our aggression have become too disjoined.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Maybe it's so ingrained in us Christians that 'letting go', eg breaking plates, swearing, stamping etc is such a bad childish thing we can't let go when we really need to.
Over-turning a few tables actually might be a good idea.
A friend of mine who raised five children told me a nice story.
After the birth of the third, her grandmother brought her a box of cracked and chipped dishes. She said, "There will be times when you feel like breaking something. Here are some dishes for you to break. When you need more, tell me and I will bring them to you."
The symbolism was much more important than the dishes themselves. Her grandmother was telling her it was all right to want to break things, and that all mothers feel that way sometimes.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Dear Doug
From personal experience I can give you the following answer. No depression is not anger turned towards yourself but anger towards yourself does make depression much worse. It will be interesting to see if I agree with that in a few months time.
I can tell you how it was and how it is. About ten years ago I guess I started getting depressed, unfortunately at the time I f***d things up as well. That led to a me directing alot of anger and guilt at myself. That resulted in things being a lot worse. If people talk about things going grey with depression, for me everything went black and the black became sticky. It felt not just as if I was drowning in an emotional sea but as if the sea had a major oil slick in it. I think it is quite possible that my clinical depression technically never got past the mild but the guilt and anger that I directed at myself complicated things so at times I was suicidal. My father eventually bullied me into counselling (my father is normally the non-directive of my parents) and there was what I take to be a miraculous intervention by God. Even so an even keel was not something I could assume for years afterwards, as ever so often the black oil slicked tide would come rolling in again. However it never stayed.
Recently I have started paddling back along the shores of depression. This time however as of yet I have not messed things up. The waters are chilly and I yes things are having a grey winter fog over them. It feels like a continual haze of tiredness. However the oil slick is not there and for that I am truly grateful.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Warrior Tortoise
Shipmate
# 2682
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Posted
Ironicall my therapist would agree with you, Out of Therapy that depression is frozen anger. Grnted my depression is not as severe as some peoples on this thread, but that's where my particular problems have arisen from.
I ws brought up in a Christian household where it wasn't Ok to shout and scream and swear and that's all I really wanted to do sometimes. Because I couldn't I turned it in on myself.
With the gardeneing/rugby suggestion many Mental Health workers suggest that physical activity is a good way to help yourself. I must admit that after an hour digging in the garden or a good hard game of squash I do feel decidedly better. I think it may something to do with burning up the excess adrenalin (or some such bodily chemical) that's coursing round your body.
The only difficulty is finding the energy to start in the first place.
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"Inconceivable!" You use that word a lot, I do not think it means what you think it means. - The Princess Bride
Posts: 82 | From: the pit of despair | Registered: Apr 2002
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
I agree, Warrior Tortoise, that there's a problem in finding the energy to start. For a while when I was in my most depressed times I didn't have the energy to face anything. I think some medication and seeing a counsellor have helped me get to the point of being more angry about things, not just pretending the issues don't exist and struggling to carry on regardless somehow.
At the moment I am in a stage where things seem less hopeless, and I have been able to make some positive changes in my work situation and living circumstances which are helping.
But though I am more 'in touch with my anger' I'm not exactly sure what to do with it, and it is a bit scary what might happen if I really let rip, though I think the most likely scenario is that I'll end up a crumpled crying heap in a corner somewhere. The other scary thing is what will happen then.
Will I just go back to suppressing things and being more depressed again? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
This may be a total divergence but over the last weekend the BBC has run a lot of 'violence in the home' problems. This has all been along the lines 'Violence is bad so stop it' rather than how do we deal with all these pent up problems we all face.
Actually, the programmes have been about Domestic Violence, and the consequences thereof, both for the victim, and for the abuser. DV isn't a direct consequence of 'pent up problems we all face'. Most people having pent up problems deal with them some other way apart from bashing their spouse/children.
quote:
Violence (physical and verbal) may be the opposite side of the coin to depression.
(snip)
Over-turning a few tables actually might be a good idea.
Maybe it would be. But not if it's directed towards another person. Domestic violence is never ok. They deserved it/provoked me/asked for it isn't an excuse. Neither is "Well I was angry, and figured expressing it was a good idea." which is what you seem to be suggesting.
quote:
But we all live in a Society which prevents more and more things. Don't swear, don't be sexist, don't be racist, don't be etc.
Don't be sexist and don't be racist are good don'ts. They are saying "Don't treat other people as less than yourself, or as worthless simply because of a physical quality." It's not just society saying "Oh, we'll ban all this stuff which used to be great fun, just cause we can." It's actually society expressing a humanistic and christian principle, namely that everyone has a baseline equal value and worth, and all are deserving of equal respect simply by virtue of being human.
quote:
Maybe playing rugby and football for example got violence out of men/boys.
(snip)
Maybe physical activity, - running, jogging, walking, cycling, digging is part of the answer.
First sensible bit of your post. Physical activity seems to elevate levels of endorphines, which lead to higher mood levels. Of course, finding the motivation to get up and do the physical activity, which will then increase your motivation to get up and do stuff is hard. Bit of a vicious circle I believe.
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
From my experience (take it or leave it of course)
Releasing the burden of buried emotions, anger included, has helped me. It's part of retaining and expressing the power which depression makes me think I have lost. Without abusing anybody of course.
When I was last off work feeling depressed, somebody got me working in the churchyard, where I found my love of using a large, heavy strimmer to destroy swathes of long grass, nettles, etc. Very therapeutic!
However, not for everyone, just for me.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Cassandra W
Shipmate
# 4098
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Posted
Hmm, well, cutting weeds sounds therapeutic and constructive, and I've heard the suggestion re: breaking dishes before, but if you really need to vent anger, how about buying a scrap car at a junkjard. Spend a couple of hours pounding on that with a baseball bat/crowbar/sledge hammer/whatever and you should feel better. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Seriously - if that's more expense than you'd like (though still cheaper than therapy) consider getting a couple of friends to buy in. Or use it as a fundraiser. That's how I actually first heard of this, school group bought the car and then sold the right to smash it (three swings for five dollars, or something like that - extra if you wanted to take out the windshield!) Just make sure everyone wears proper safety goggles to protect their eyes from the flying debris ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Cassandra (Better living through chemistry - SSRI anti-depressants - since 1984!)
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"Utterly bleak and black is not the sum of realism. All the other colors are real, too"
L. M. Bujold
Posts: 157 | From: Anaheim, CA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Annie P
Ship's galley maid
# 3453
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Posted
I read some of this thread before, but it caught my eye again today, so i've read more of it. As I read, the more scary it's become as I recognise many of symptoms you've been describing in me. This is me being honest so please bear with me.
Basically, most people would say that I am a happy person, and for the most part that's how I am. Bubbly and friendly. However, sometimes something just hits me and takes all that away. I know it's not PMT because I don't suffer from that, there is no cycle to the feelings. I too suffered a great deal at school where I was very much alone and for all the time I was there I didn't make any real good friends. Sometimes it felt like I lived a split personality, happy and chatty at the weekend when I was at church, then a loner and on my own during the week.
When I left school I did a gap year where I met some super people who showed me that they loved me for just being me, which I could hardly believe and I can honestly say God did a massive healing job on my image and the hurt that had been inflicted. I guess though that school will always leave a lasting impression on me. I too have in the past placed great emphasis on one or two people, possibly to the detriment of our friendship at times.
However, I think the thing that scared me most, and which has made want to post here is that after a very busy summer last year where I was involved in two very intense working holidays, I went back to work in September not wanting to be there. Ok, so there was not a lot to be getting on with, but what little I could have been doing, I didn't do. It was like someone had come along and switched my motivation button off. As the months went by, I seemed to be able to do less and less (which is when I found the ship, possibly one of the few things that kept me going at work at that time).
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I would say that depressed people don't have joy. It's like being tired in spirit. Things you were actively interested in just don't have the same appeal any more, you don't have any enthusiasm to want to try anything new, before you know it life has shrivelled into a few basic activities. Life isn't particularly painful, it's just an interminable drag. In fact I'd say that the inertia of depression is ultimately far more insidious and damaging than the feelings of isolation which are more immediately painful.
I could safely say that this was true for me. It felt like living life through treakle and I hated myself for feeling that way, so much so, that I apologised to my line manager for putting in such a poor performance. It left me vunerable to other things too which possibly wouldn't have happened if I had been more "switched on".
After a good break of doing nothing at Christmas, I seem to have recovered most of my bounce. Scary thing is that people have noticed the difference. We discussed this at my review and equally scary was the fact my manager said that I seem to be a completely different person now.
The days when I wanted to crawl underneath my desk and just shut out the world (and I'm being very honest here) have gone hopefully although I do find it hard sometime to some up enough energy to do all the things that I need to do.
I know that I was probably suffering from mild depression, though that alone freeks me out. I think one of the problems is that no one says this is what you feel like when you get depressed. It's easy to identify when you have a cold, but depression? Maybe this is where it starts for many people, and gets a lot worse before the depression is caught. Maybe we should be on the watch out for our friends more.
If I had known that this was what it was, then I would have made sure I pulled a sicky, and in fact my manager has told me if I start feeling like I'm going down again, to sign myself off and take a break. I'm now trying to be a little more careful about what I take on and am trying to give myself the time out I need. Only it's hard somedays living on your own.
Thanks for reading this. I really appreciate it.
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Older now, but not necessarily wiser.
Posts: 3248 | From: stockton-on-tees | Registered: Oct 2002
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Fishface
Apprentice
# 2206
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Posted
Just gotta sat My heart goes out to everyone on this thread. Annie P, Ariel, Moo,everybody. There are so many people who suffer like us. Many, many more than we ever realise. I see it in myself.
At work I see a constant trickle of people for whom depression has sucked the hope out of them. To the point of suicide.
I always see depession like the Demetors in Harry Potter. Looming black figues that suck the very essence of life out of you.( JK Rowling created those character during about of Depression).
I wonder how God sees it? I bet it breaks his heart.
Also I now refuse to think of myself as having failed if i become low and grey. I have learned to live with depression as a possible in my life. I have forgiven myself for being depressed at any point. somehow that has made a difference. Dunno why.
Guess i want to be positive about it. Without being trite. God has met me in the mire. Love is the key. ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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But thy eternal summer shall not fade, Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest
Posts: 47 | From: in the asylum | Registered: Jan 2002
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MaryO
Shipmate
# 161
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Posted
Last September I found myself sitting at my desk alternately crying and staring into space. My manager called my on the bad quality of my work, and suggested (not ordered) that I go see the Employee Assistance Program. Half an hour with a counselor there convinced her I needed a therapist, and two days later I saw the therapist. At the end of that session she gave me the name of a psychiatrist to get on medication. I saw the psychiatrist on a Wednesday afternoon, and he had me admitted to the hospital psych ward the next morning. I started the paperwork for short-term disability the Tuesday after I saw the therapist.
It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I was in 11 days, which got me daily attention from a resident and consistent evaluation of my medication.
I then was out of work 2 1/2 months, to get used to medication, and get my concentration and focus back. I came back to work on January 6, and since then I feel great about myself and about my work.
Don't be afraid of the hospital if you need it. Of course, I benefitted from a terrific manager, supportive company, and good insurance.
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Hanging around off and on since 2001.
Posts: 349 | From: New York City | Registered: May 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
[HOST SULKS IN]
If I were feeling up to it, I'd snarl something about reasoned discussion of clinical depression being better suited for Purgatory. I'd really feel terrible about closing this thread. Not that it matters, because nobody listens to me anyway. Luckily, my apathy prevents me from caring.
[HOST SULKS OUT]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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doug
Apprentice
# 474
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Posted
Dear Fr. Gregory,
Of course I would agree that the reason I was depressed is not the only reason people are depressed - I think that quote is actually from Freud so probably needs a liberal pinch of salt - and I would never for a minute suggest what worked (?) for me would work for anyone else.
I do think, though, that a tendency to see strong emotions, and in particular anger, as a negative thing does contribute a lot to certain forms of depression - and that it is interesting that people who self-harm/have eating disorders/take non-lethal overdoses/other fun stuff often tend to have issues with anger in particular (but not always of course)
I wonder what people think about these kinds of feelings. Is it wrong to be angry?
I would say (in my late nineties/early noughties (and that's the date and not my age) woolly kind of way) that it isn't - and it shouldn't be - I suppose that I am saying realising what you feel and trying to understand it, allowing yourself to feel it, whilst realising that it might not be the most reasonable thing in the world is probably a good thing.
In a way, maybe, the way feelings are regarded by society is in terms of whether they are *justified* or not. Of course this is an important lens through which to view them, but perhaps equally important is to accept that, well, things are going to piss you off/upset you/whatever no matter how objectively unreasonable, and that this doesn't mean they aren't there!
Dear Jengie
I too have f*cked things up royally in life now and then, and made some frankly rather questionable decisions ![[Smile]](smile.gif) , and I concur with your assessment that depression is a little more than anger directed at oneself - everyone gets a bit annoyed at themselves, but someone who is already down will *really* beat themselves up about something - a special talent, if you will ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I suppose that it is a worry that one could slip back into depression - I know when I feel down, there is always a nagging feeling that it is the start of something bad.. rather than just normal stress which everyone feels (and isn't much fun at all - none of this 'oh feel my pain' kind of stuff but I hope its not too precious to say it's different from the kind of depression when you can't move to get out of bed, can't remember anything good and just want to cry the whole time), and sometimes it does feel like it could be...
I truly hope that you manage to navigate to some balmy tropical waters (oh dear how trite is that), and there are lots of nice fishies. And dolphins. And maybe a nice island with a lovely beach (getting worse, sorry)
Time for bed!
Love to all,
Doug
Posts: 28 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jun 2001
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
A general reply to Sarky Cow ...
I most certainly didn't advocate or condone domestic violence. I suggested it was similar to depression, ie when life and problems seem to overwhelm you. And people either seem to give up or hit out.
You even see that in the postings on our threads where people seem to flip and say something outrageous or give up posting.
Many people have flipped at me and something that was akin to a 'racist or sexist' comment.
I never take offence because I realise that their flipping/anger has not much too do with me but their own internal workings. 90% of the time I receive an apology, - sometimes weeks later.
I now regard outbursts as a sign of friendship because most people only flip with people they trust, - ie they think the relationship can bear it. Which is why most rows are within families and not with strangers.
Maybe people who can be angry with God have a similar relationship with him.
If you have depression the best thing that can happen to you is for someone to walk alongside you sometimes for miles, and not say a word, but just be there.
'Being there', - its so important. Could you do it ? No platitudes, no advice, nothing.
Someone once called it the 'Emmaus Road' experience.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear GH
quote:
You even see that in the postings on our threads where people seem to flip and say something outrageous or give up posting.
I don't see the Ship as a place where strong feelings can be authentically transacted. For that you need face to face encounters. Emoticons and verbal twisting are inadequate to the task. That's why we have Hell ... it's a sort of necessary substitute for the real thing.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
If you have depression the best thing that can happen to you is for someone to walk alongside you sometimes for miles, and not say a word, but just be there.
'Being there', - its so important. Could you do it ? No platitudes, no advice, nothing.
Can I sneak in and ask a very non-Hellish word of advice? I have a friend, my closest friend since childhood, who has been suffering from a combination of depression and stress for going on for four years now. We don't live near to each other, so contact is necessarily limited to telephone calls, letters and emails, and visits which involve a stay. We both have families, and I know she misses the greater support I was able to give when I did not have children of my own.
How can I best help her long-distance? My letters and emails go unanswered, I seem always to phone at the wrong time. Visits are by necessity stressful. I could stay elsewhere and visit, but then she feels hurt and rejected that I don't want to stay with her. She has described her need to batten down the hatches and retreat into herself and her family, though she says how valuable my friendship is to her. I can feel us slowly drifting apart, which neither of us want to happen and I hate the feeling of letting her down when she needs it most.
I know all people are different, and what is right for one is not necessarily right for another. But, in addition to prayer, what can I best do for my friend. Do I persist (if so, how best?) or do I let go? Do I tell her when her repeated rejection is hurtful (e.g. I knitted jumpers for her children, at their request, and sent them - and the parcel was returned to me because she could not find the motivation to collect it from the post office. I understood, but it hurt and angered all the same) or do I try to let it wash over me?
How do I walk alongside her?
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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flev
Shipmate
# 3187
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Posted
Smudgie, hang in there! ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
IMO, just because your friend isn't responding to your contact with her doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't appreciate it. Letters, e-mails and the like give concrete proof to you that someone cares enough to take time to think about you. And I've found that helps - even if only slightly.
However, that's just my personal experience - not sure if it's any help.
Posts: 402 | From: Right in the middle | Registered: Aug 2002
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
Hello Smudgie,
I can't give advice for your situation but I'll tell you of what helped me.
I had a colleague at work who if she saw my face not smiling would send me an e-mail such as
Keep Pedalling !
That cheered me up no end.
At weekends I would go with my wife to National Trust Gardens and just walk in a depressive haze. I didn't want to talk. Suddenly I'd see a butterfly or a small frog or something, and I'd say 'look at that'.
And somewhere in the walk, followed by a cup of tea, I'd find that the depression had lifted.
This went on for many months.
My wife did complain that I didn't say anything, and I should talk it out, but I just couldn't find the words.
I could hold her hand and I liked just to have a hug, but words, - there just didn't seem to be any to say.
My wife talked a lot, that was fine. Listening was no problem. But I couldn't speak or reply.
Maybe in the above you can find some help, and I wish you well with your friend, because it will be draining on you and you won't know if you're making a difference or not.
But even if you sat with your friend in front of a fire for a couple of hours and said absolutely nothing, I think you would be helping.
Whatever you do, as long as your friend aquiesses and doesn't through you out, IMO is beneficial.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
whoops - took a bit of an overdose lastnight. (rapidly retreats out of hell and hides in a corner...)
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
Smudgie, and all.
I remember someone saying that we can never feel another person's pain.
Everything we think we understand is not adequate or quite accurate.
No answers in this, but accepting it , either as supporter or supported, may help.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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heathen mama
Shipmate
# 3767
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Posted
Rook, I know that this thread isn't what would normally be considered "Hellish", but for those of us who need to discuss our bouts, there is no other place quite suited for it. Sharing our experiences with the terrifying chasm of shit that depression creates requires a venue that can take what we need to dish out.
FUCK DEPRESSION.
(Do you feel better about leaving it here now?)
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I shaved my armpits for *this*?
Posts: 569 | From: the first state | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It's a chasm of shit all right. It can lead to some pretty bizarre behaviour and distortions of reality. And combined with stress or anxiety it can really make life not worth living.
Smudgie, I think you have to tell your friend you find her behaviour hurtful, if you can do so calmly and tactfully. There's no point setting yourself up to have your face smacked again and again. It won't do either of you any good. I don't know your friend, but perhaps the more you persist, the more she might need to retreat. Or perhaps the friendship just doesn't mean as much to her any more as it does to you. Sometimes you lose the capacity to care. You might ask the family how they cope with it, if you haven't already done so: they may have some suggestions.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Annie P
Ship's galley maid
# 3453
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Posted
Thanks for your understanding about what I said. But please don't label me with (or anyone else here) with stigma about what I said. I am normal, really.
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Older now, but not necessarily wiser.
Posts: 3248 | From: stockton-on-tees | Registered: Oct 2002
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heathen mama
Shipmate
# 3767
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Posted
Annie, we are all normal. That's what makes it so painful.
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I shaved my armpits for *this*?
Posts: 569 | From: the first state | Registered: Dec 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Annie P:
Thanks for your understanding about what I said. But please don't label me with (or anyone else here) with stigma about what I said. I am normal, really.
Annie, I know what you're saying! I've just had my performance review, following a year of what I thought was depression-related terrible performance, but it obviously didn't show up to either my peer reviewers or my boss. I had written in my self-evaluation that I found it hard to evaluate because of the depression.
Now, my manager has been very supportive right through last year. She understands about depression and has talked with me about it at length (usually with me in tears.) But when she saw the word "depression" on my self-evaluation, she suggested I change it to "illness," to avoid the stigma of having it on my public service file.
How on earth are we supposed to combat stigma without naming reality? I am quite normal, just depressed. My performance review shows me to have worked "competently" all last year, right through the depression, with some fabulous feedback from my peers about my contributions to our office. So what's the issue? I understand that she thinks it's a good idea, but I don't.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by heathen mama:
Rook, I know that this thread isn't what would normally be considered "Hellish", but for those of us who need to discuss our bouts, there is no other place quite suited for it. Sharing our experiences with the terrifying chasm of shit that depression creates requires a venue that can take what we need to dish out.
My apologies heathen mama, and anyone else concerned. My earlier hostly post was not a serious threat about closing this thread. Its continued existence is safe, as its worth is obvious. I was merely trying to couch the topical suggestion in terms fitting for the decor. The intricacies of clinical depression might have merit for reasoned discussion in Purgatory without the distracting evidence of its futility posted around it...
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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TruePeaceful
Apprentice
# 4136
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Posted
I myself have had lots of ups and downs in my life. First of all my dad was abusive parents divorced when i was 10 I started drinking and using drugs when I was 12. I thought at that time if it makes you feel good do it. But i never really felt good. I have had things happen to me that I wont go into in here. But eventually I found Jesus. Even with having Jesus in my life there has been alot of ups and downs. The hardest one was when my husband of 20 yrs walked out on me last summer. But no matter what I cant go back to what I was before I came to know the Lord.
Posts: 2 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
quote:
Originally posted by Annie P:
Thanks for your understanding about what I said. But please don't label me with (or anyone else here) with stigma about what I said. I am normal, really.
Annie, I know what you're saying! I've just had my performance review, following a year of what I thought was depression-related terrible performance, but it obviously didn't show up to either my peer reviewers or my boss. I had written in my self-evaluation that I found it hard to evaluate because of the depression.
Now, my manager has been very supportive right through last year. She understands about depression and has talked with me about it at length (usually with me in tears.) But when she saw the word "depression" on my self-evaluation, she suggested I change it to "illness," to avoid the stigma of having it on my public service file.
How on earth are we supposed to combat stigma without naming reality? I am quite normal, just depressed. My performance review shows me to have worked "competently" all last year, right through the depression, with some fabulous feedback from my peers about my contributions to our office. So what's the issue? I understand that she thinks it's a good idea, but I don't.
Hmm. That raises a question for me, Arabella. Going back a year or so - an application form for voluntary work in palliative care asked me to state if I had ever been in counselling/therapy of any kind. After taking advice from someone, I replied, no. The counselling I'd received being more of a 'listening ear' affair, and I'd not been referred through my GP. However, since then, I've spent around 40 hrs plus with a professional counsellor. At one point very very low grade depression was mentioned. (I feel for some of you posters here - if what I've experienced was low grade, I dread to think how you're feeling). But again, this never went to my GP.
So, my question is - Given the situation, how should I answer a similar question in future, and from others' experiences, would a 'yes' be likely to be held against me? I'm not trivialising the situation. This was serious counselling, not merely tea and sympathy - and I don't care to think how I would be now if I hadn't undertaken it.
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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Well, my doctor never puts it on anything he writes as a reference for me. I asked him why and he said it was because people would misunderstand. He regards me as one of his more competent patients all round (he's a sweet, sweet man) and feels that it would be unfair for me to be labelled before someone got to know me. Most of what he's written for me has been for church interviews, and he is well aware of the stigma attached to depression in the church - and also of the predominance of it in the church!
To be fair to both of us, I don't think he would ignore it if it had knocked me out, but I missed only two days work because of depression last year, largely due to his support and the support of my workmates. Matter of degree perhaps?
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
I recently applied for a different job with my current employer (Council Social Work dept) and had to face the Occupational Health form which asks quite blatantly if you have ever been depressed, had counselling, therapy, on any medication etc.
This was a dilemma for me. I had been open with my supervisor about my depression etc and I hadn't missed any work. In the end I did include the facts of my depression in points on the form and found it encouraging to receive a reply from Occupational Health saying that there was no reason why I was not suitable for the post.
If you are up front in these situations they are required not to discriminate against you, equal opportunities and all that.
It worked for me anyway,
OOT
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kit Dawe
Shipmate
# 4143
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Posted
Have only just joined the ship today, and have spent most of the morning just browsing. I felt I neded to post to this particular board tho'. First of all, to all my fellow sufferers out there (and to all our frinds - I know we can get difficult sometimes!) can I just 'Hi' and 'good luck!' I'm currently on a bit of a downward spiral, so here's hoping for a brighter time. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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The past may well be a foreign country, but it has a long diplomatic arm...
Posts: 51 | From: 21st century England....most of the time. | Registered: Feb 2003
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heathen mama
Shipmate
# 3767
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Posted
Welcome to the ship, Kit. Make yourself at home. My suggestion: read as many of the threads as you can, try to get a sense of different personalities, and then jump on into posting. And also try out the cafe...it's my personal favorite part of the ship.
Rook: thanks for the response. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was offended by your remarks...I truly wasn't. When one is suffering from depression, Purgatory would feel like an awkward place to discuss it. Like having World Cup Soccer matches held on a high-school field...to much restraint required. We need access to all of the verbal grenades and flaming heads we can get!
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I shaved my armpits for *this*?
Posts: 569 | From: the first state | Registered: Dec 2002
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
I managed to stay away from the doctor, and fortunately had a couple of good friends who were wise and understanding counsellors to me. Still, I think I may have touched on a glimpse of depression over the last year. Divorce sometimes does that to people I've heard. The problem is, how do you know when you are over it? When you think you are in the clear, you've had a good couple of weeks for example, it comes back with a vengeance. To hell with depression.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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Atlanta
Shipmate
# 2659
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Posted
So many people, So much suffering,
But it's good to hear others talk about this, as the Medical profession still do not fully understand, as we ourselves find it difficult to understand why one minute we are OK, and the next feeling so low.
This was intended as an update, I have been off the " tablets " for 10 days now, Am feeling some "wobbles"( pretty big ones) But I will give it more time, Meanwhile I have to hope people around me understand, and are patient with me.
It is so hard!!!!!!!
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If you cant beat them, Join them!! But i refuse to start farming!!!!
Posts: 355 | Registered: Apr 2002
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candleinthedark
Shipmate
# 2361
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Posted
quote:
So many people, So much suffering,
I have to agree with that.
It's now over 6 months since I've posted because of things at work which resulted in 5 months off with depression and then coming back starting part time and building up. I'm now back full time which is tiring and tough. I'm reasonably confident I can make it.
This is the only time I've had depression and I guess it is relatively minor - but that does not mean that it isn't a debilitating black hole. The doctor wanted to refer me to Mental Health but I decided to refuse - it would knock my self-estime too far. My parents are completely ignorant and unhelpful, but my husband is a rock on which I can rely.
Over the time off work I managed to keep going on some distance studies. I'm sure this is part of Gods plan for me - it made me get up, gave me something to do. I kept playing in the church worship band because music is part of me, and theriputic and so on, but few of them knew what was going on.
Even now few of the church really know. One young lady said to me a few months ago how surprised she had been when the word got through - and she has just come through depression herself. When I am being stuborn I can hide it well - If I couldn't I wouldn't have left home. This lady was really encouraging, and I'm very grateful that there is someone who understands. Now, with being back at work I'm not as able to keep music and church out of it and the things I managed to still enjoy are being sucked in too.
I've just been offered redundancy from work and am planning to take it but don't know where to go next. Would rather not have too many uncertainties at the moment!
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There is no situation so chaotic that God cannot from that situation create something that is surpassingly good. He did it at the creation. He did it at the cross. He is doing it today.
... Bishop Handley Moule
Posts: 70 | From: Leicestershire, UK | Registered: Feb 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Annie, dear, you and the others may be normal, but I am definitely a fruitcake.
How do you know when you're pulling out of a depression? The grass looks green. Birds sing. Terribly sappy, I'm afraid, but a good index.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
How do you know when you're pulling out of a depression? The grass looks green. Birds sing. Terribly sappy, I'm afraid, but a good index.
Oooh, I like the method!
Today, the grass is grey and the birds are croaking. May not sound great, but a week or so ago the grass was covered in spillage from a chemical factory, dug up, replaced with concrete and turned into a huge car park. I don't even want to know what had happened to the birds!
Amorya
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I hesitated about posting the next comment but I think information is better than ignorance.
Unfortunately the next stage after depression just when you're starting to get better is the contemplation of suicide. (And unfortunatley many people also carry it out totally unaware they're on the mend.)
The theory goes something like this. Depression means everything is grey and you can't be bothered to do anything, - even get out of bed.
As you start to improve you then think 'There is something I can do to improve my lot in Life' which is unfortunatley ending it. But this is an action, someone taking control where no control previously existed. Whch in medical terms means you are getting better.
I post this so that everyone who knows someone with depression is aware what might happen and is pre-warned. I do realise it might frighten readers as well and I really hope that doesn't happen.
If you do feel suicidal phone the Samaritans in the UK. They really do know what you've been though and can really help.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Interesting the number of others who have posted on the stigma of depression. I have not told anyone at work about it, because I fear that it would be taken poorly.
I do know that, as it is on my medical record now, my chances of re-applying for ordination are probably gone ( at least for a number of years ). I cannot talk to anyone at church about it, because, being very new, I fear that it would kybosh any chance of a ministry there.
Why are we so stigmatised? I think people are scared ( very much like the early era of AIDS ). And yet statistics indicate 1 in 10 people sill suffer significant depression, and more than that a milder form. That means that in a church of 100, between 10 and 20 people will experience some degree of depression. Churches with significant numbers of younger people are, I suspect, more likely to suffer with the problems of first-time depression. And yet we ignore it, and pretend it doesn't exist. It would make me angry, but actually makes me sad.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Don't give up all hope, SC - see if you can get a copy of this week's Church Times. You need to read page 15.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kit Dawe
Shipmate
# 4143
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Posted
I don't know whether anybody else read the Observer yesterday, but there was a very interesting article regarding those who cut themselves, which I believe to be relevant to the whole idea of being stigmatised. It was written by a man (the biggest increase in self-harm statistics, by the way is in young men; the other scary statistic is that self harmers are MUCH more likely to commit suicide). The cycle is quite terrifying. Whilst cutting helped him deal with the feelings of depression, it also led him ultimatly to retreat further into himself, as the physical scars were something which (quite understandably) caused fairly extreme reactions in those who viewed them. In trying to cut himself out of his prison, he retreated further into it, because of the stigma he felt, due, not only to his mental situation, but also his physical scars.
I thought carefully before posting this next bit, but I hope it helps any others out there. I myself was one of these men who did this. I havn't hurt myself for several years now, and I look at my arms with horror at the scarring, and remember with equal horror what I did to myself. I am only just coming to learn just how ill I was, and this adds an extra dimension to how I feel about becoming ill again, not only because of how it affects me, but how other people react. The positive thing I've noticed about this thread, and one which everybody who has made a contribution should be proud of, is that we are trying to and discuss it in a humane way. Medical science, whilst very helpful can seem a little impersonal and clinical at times - treating the illness, but not the person. As others have noticed, the church is varied, and often destructive in it's reaction to depression (though again this is not always the case - the church is part of society, and is therefore necessarily going to have an element of societies prejudices and loving reactions towards the subject) - it often can reduce it to spiritual illness. And a significant, wider proportion of society would rather not think about it.
These reactions are either dismissive or reductive. Yet I notice a determination here (and it's one I hope to foster in myself to not let the bugger win. Depression of any sort, and however it manifests itself does not define who I am. Kit Dawe has depression, but it is not an inate feature of Kit. Perhaps one way of dealing with the stigma is to try and teach society (what ever that means) to not view the scars or the tears and use it as the defining feature of that person. As ever, stigmata in this case, as with so many other issues begins with the dehumanisation of others. And, alas, because of the illness we have, we tend to feel even more inhuman than we already do, and adds to the cycle. Any ideas how we teach this lesson.?
Sorry I went on a bit. Really what I wanted to say was that here, at least we tend to look beyond the illness. And also am trying to show myself there is some hope.
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The past may well be a foreign country, but it has a long diplomatic arm...
Posts: 51 | From: 21st century England....most of the time. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
SC - I appreciate your being guarded in a new community, but be aware that some congregations may not see depression as a black ball. In my parish, more than a couple of the people who are a big part of what goes on have suffered depression before and during their ministry or participation.
I have had severe depression and am just now coming back to the land of the living, and I and my priest consider it somewhat of an asset in my new lay ministry. I'm a newly minted Stephen Minister and my role to have a long term one-on-one relationship with someone going through a rough time for whatever reason. The idea is to spread the job of pastoral care around so it's not all on the clergy's shoulders. Having been halfway to hell and back, I may be able to relate to people in some situations that would be alien to some people.
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Thank you Kit. Oddly, I haven't met any young men who cut, but I have three young women in my care who do.
Including our Sunday School teacher who has just been hospitalised with severe depression. She cuts herself and has done ever since I've known her (about 6 years now). Any spare prayers for her would be appreciated.
I'm at a bit of a loss what to tell the kids on Sunday, since I'll be filling in for her this week. Huia gave me The Red Tree by Shaun Tan, which is the most wonderful picture book on depression. But I'm not sure what or whether to tell the kids - they're already a bit stressed because our minister is heading to the US this week for three weeks, and they're a bit worried about war and so on. I suspect I shouldn't just ignore it.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Thank you everyone for your responses here ( and to Amos for your PM ). I accept that it should not be a barrier to ministry, and may be, at some point, a very important aspect of my ministry. I am glad that there are those around who acknowledge that. Eanswyth - you may be right, but I would want some more evidence that it may be considered positive before I would commit myself. I currently have serious doubts. Im my previous church I did admit it, but then it was shortly before I left. I am sure that, had I stayed, it would have been a major boost to my ministry there.
I was really trying to work out the effects of the stigma of depression. Those who self-harm or attempt suicide are harder to deal with for people ( including myself ), and I wonder if some of the reason is because to work with such people, you may have to face your own fears? Scars make a very significant visual statement about the state that the person is in, and I can see this is very challenging.
Sorry, probably talking rubbish, just trying to think out load ( you know what I mean )
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Obnoxious Snob
Arch-Deacon
# 982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Thank you everyone for your responses here ( and to Amos for your PM ). I accept that it should not be a barrier to ministry, and may be, at some point, a very important aspect of my ministry. I am glad that there are those around who acknowledge that. Eanswyth - you may be right, but I would want some more evidence that it may be considered positive before I would commit myself. I currently have serious doubts. Im my previous church I did admit it, but then it was shortly before I left. I am sure that, had I stayed, it would have been a major boost to my ministry there.
I was really trying to work out the effects of the stigma of depression. Those who self-harm or attempt suicide are harder to deal with for people ( including myself ), and I wonder if some of the reason is because to work with such people, you may have to face your own fears? Scars make a very significant visual statement about the state that the person is in, and I can see this is very challenging.
Sorry, probably talking rubbish, just trying to think out load ( you know what I mean )
Thank you so much, Schroedingers Cat for your honesty and your sensitivity in anticipating both the challenges and opportunities that may lie ahead for you. If it helps, please see page 15 of the Church Times this week where I seek to explore some of the lessons of the last five years in my ministry. I am sorry but I cannot find a link for this particular page.
God Bless on your journey wherever it may take you and the meetings along the way.
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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'
Christopher Fry
Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
If anyone could send me a copy of the Church Times article, I would be very grateful. Please PM me, if you can help. Cheers.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Kit Dawe
Shipmate
# 4143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I was really trying to work out the effects of the stigma of depression. Those who self-harm or attempt suicide are harder to deal with for people ( including myself ), and I wonder if some of the reason is because to work with such people, you may have to face your own fears? Scars make a very significant visual statement about the state that the person is in, and I can see this is very challenging.
Posts: 51 | From: 21st century England....most of the time. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kit Dawe
Shipmate
# 4143
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Posted
Sorry about the above everyone - first time I have tried to incorporate a quote! Ooops!!
Schrodiger, I think you are right - I think one of the great problems with self - injury is that it does present a challenge to others (although I think it needs to be said that people don't tend to do it it in order to bring attention to themselves - it is done more in the persuit of temporary relief, than as a cry for help). Partly because of it's sheer physicallity - you can't dismiss it once you know someone's doing it, and partly because (and I agree with you here), that it is a case of addressing your own fears.
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The past may well be a foreign country, but it has a long diplomatic arm...
Posts: 51 | From: 21st century England....most of the time. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
SC - I feel that you are completely right in not opening up to a new community yet. You have to get the feel for them before you know how they might react. I just wasn't sure if you had thought about the possibility of using your "flaw" as a strength. I'm glad that you had seen it that way in your previous community. I'll keep praying for all of us to find the lifeline and, once grasped, not let go.
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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