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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Screaming babies during worship
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
This is Hell so my fathers attitude as a retired minister is
Well if the child is going to make that sort of noise I better preach a bit louder than usual.
Boy can those old time (i.e. trained before amplification was standard) preachers belt it if they have an excuse to. (Tangent, to cope with amplification they normally have had to adjust their standard preaching style otherwise it is too loud so it is just a case of returning to the familiar). This is all of course without shouting ![[Wink]](wink.gif) .
Nah in our church its the ones who decided to suck the fairy lights when they are on that are the problem. We have few enough as it is.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ginga
Ship's lurker
# 1899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie:
Nah in our church its the ones who decided to suck the fairy lights when they are on that are the problem. We have few enough as it is.
Few enough children or fairy lights? I don't imagine it's very good for either.
Posts: 1075 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Few enough children. If anything too many fairy lights the congregations thinks the tree looks gaudy.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
Apologies for that last post. Someone will be along to delete it. I will remove my shepherds tea towel & try again...
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
I go to church to worship and participate, not listen.
But how is that possible with a screaming child nearby?
Consider:
1. The child doesn't care: all on its mind is whatever is causing its present distress
2. The parent can't concentrate: through worry about the child or simply from the noise
3. Others in the vicinity can't concentrate owing to the distraction of the child
A lot depends on the location. I wouldn't cast screaming kids & their into the street. But there's nothing wrong in my view in setting aside a side room. Most parents in my church are too embarrassed to stay in the services in such circumstances anyway!
[Strike 1 ]
[ 18. December 2002, 12:49: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
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Posts: 1814 | From: Here, there & everywhere | Registered: Sep 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
It’s all academic, we are not (I hope in the business) of making anybody leave.
Though it does beg the question of what does your church do with other types of uncontrollable behavior, drunkenness, mental and physical disabilities?
There is no simple answer. We in our church employ the : Preaching louder: family service and Sunday Fun Club: room with piped service: toys at the back: very tolerant of most things, tactics BUT when we get the odd inconsolable screamer because ( I hope) we are trying to be deeply prayerful the parent often just takes them out. Often the church wardens go out to offer support.
It is the worst sound in the world. It has evolved to make everybody (especially the parent) very uncomfortable until the cause has been remedied.
It is not to much to ask that the greater good (after every reasonable precaution has been taken) be followed. And if the parent will not take the baby out then hey we have to turn the other cheek. Maybe in this one instance the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.
P King of the UnHoly Compromise.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Qestia
Marshwiggle
# 717
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Posted
Well, this thread has opened my eyes. I really thought we had an OP everyone could agree with. Apparently not. I hope that it's just a misunderstanding, that Sharkshooter et al don't really think 200-decibel screamers should be allowed to disrupt worship of the entire congregation. But sheesh, if, as it appears, they really think it's okay, well, that certainly explains a lot.
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I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.
Posts: 1213 | From: Boston | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
So, help out rather than complaining. But then, perhaps you already do. In that case, I take my hat off to you.
Sharkshooter: Actually, I have offered in the past to take a child out. Only once was it accepted. All other occasions have been met with looks of horror, incredulity, or offense. I do appreciate that those with colicy (sp?) children need a hand. However, after a point, I simply feel a child who won't or can't settle ought to be taken somewhere other than the primary worship space.
Riv.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
As moth and others have said, sometimes it's NOT possible to take the child out, either because there's nowhere to go, or because there are other circumstances such as another child needing the parent in the room.
I know some people go to church to listen, and for them being in a side room and able to hear the worship would be sufficient. I go to church to participate, and being in a side room and hearing what was going on would not be anything like church for me. You say you want to worship in quiet and reverence - well I want to worship in person, not listen to other people worshipping while not being present. I don't see why a parent of an inconsolable child should be able to participate any less than anyone else. Maybe they need more than you to be present.
If you take the child out, it may well still cry - I doubt any parent wishes the crying to be prolonged - they have probably tried everything. Occasionally just being held by another person - not a parent - will stop a child from crying, but generally the parents know what will and won't work and will have tried them all. So going out of the service will not stop the child from crying (unless it's the preaching that is making them cry? ). So basically you are just moving the problem.
The crying child is part of your church community, and part of your community in general. If you don't want children in your church, go to a different church. Most evening services, and some early morning services, are quite child-free - may I suggest you try them instead. If you don't want children in your community, you may have to try a different planet.
Actually, I have a better idea. How about a quiet, video-linked room for people who don't like noise? They could have the words of the sermon and the hymns as subtitles, then they wouldn't have to listen to anything at all, or acknowledge that their are children in the world?
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
ok, something else i don't understand, busyknitter, not singling you out, because other people have said similar... where only one parent is church going, why bring the baby at all? the other parent can keep the kid happy at home!
I took my daughter to church, on my own, from the age of 1 week old, because that's where I wanted her to be. Church is the place for small children, just as it is the place for all of us.
And we kept it up for nearly 14 years until she decided she wanted to go to another church.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
I’ve experienced this from just about every imaginable angle. I am a parent of two small children, but I wasn’t always. I’ve planned services which were disrupted by children. I’ve worked in the kids’ areas. I’ve been on staff, trying to decide policies regarding children in church. I’ve had my own kids in church, in the soundproof “mothers’ room”, in the lobby, in the nursery, and occasionally in the car.
I believe that church is a fundamentally family-friendly institution. This doesn’t mean that the singles are obligated to become servants of the parents (at least not any more than we are all supposed to become servants). It does mean that no one should ever be made to feel unwelcome because of having a child.
Mothers’ rooms, speakers in the lobby or outside, and nursery care are all immensely helpful in creating an environment where parents, children, singles, and the short-of-attention-span can coexist peacefully. It is incumbent on parents to provide the human and financial resources for these programs. As Presleyterian points out, we signed up for this gig.
Personally, I have never and will never allow my children to disrupt a service, or any public event. There is nothing that gets a faster or firmer parental reaction from me than crying or loud talking in church. On the other hand, I have never excluded anyone from a church function because of their children. I simply cannot imagine Christ sending someone away because their baby was crying.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Being pewless here shows its advantages. When children start screaming at the top of their lungs, it is easy for one of the parents to walk them out of the nave, and figure out what is ailing them, and/or calm them down. Then they re-enter. This happens over and over again in our service. Nobody even pays it any mind. It's just considered part of bringing a little one to church.
Reader Alexis
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If your child is screaming uncontrollably, how on earth can you NOT take the kid out of the situation? God, that is not only rude as hell to everyone else, but cruel to the child, too. Obviously the child is unhappy/tired/ill/whatever, so your solution is to hell with it, I'm here and I'm staying?
It is different for toddlers. But for very little babies, if they are warm, and clean, and fed, and still cry - which they sometimes do - then all you can do is pick them up and cuddle them and sing to them. You can do that as well in the church as out.
So from the POV of the baby, staying in church with them may well not be cruel. Lots of babies, especially in the 3-9 month sort of age, are happier in crowds than away from them. The rhythms of a church service sing-silence-talk-sing or whatever can be calming to some babies.
It's very different from a toddler who will have developed their own opinion of church and whether they want to be in it or not. That's a much bigger problem if they will not let you be part of the service.
I was quite lucky that my own daughter mostly got on well in church when she was 2 or 3. But there were some of the adults there who thought the little kids should be in the creche. So I tried to take her there and she hated that. I certainly couldn't leave her in the creche so if she was there I had to be, which meant that I missed whatever was happening.
So, in practice, I ended up being the only man helping out with looking after the little kids in the creche - which was quite fun, I suppose, but I did get upset at the attitude of some of the others that children shouldn't be in the service. That's changed now. But we were, to some extent, excluded from large parts of the service by the opinions of a minority of grumpy parishioners who didn't want to be around children.
When she was 3 years old and could go to the more structured Sunday School then she was quite happy with being left.
But all that has got nothing to do with the duty of feeding, changing, or otherwise caring for a baby in some obvious and fixable distress, which no-one here has suggested you shouldn't do.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
Church is for EVERYONE. Including screaming babies, and their parents.
I am single and don't have kids. If or when I do, I really hope that I and they are not relegated to a "soundproof room"... I do some of my work in one and there are few things more claustrophobic and alienating than knowing no-one can hear you. How on earth is that being part of a service? I go to church to worship and participate, not listen. I might as well stay at home and listen to a tape if I'm not going to be allowed to participate.
What she said.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
I simply cannot imagine Christ sending someone away because their baby was crying.
Amen to that.
Church is, or at any rate ought to be, in some ways more like home than like a public place. Do you send the parents of a crying child out of their home?
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
It also can be relative. Once when the children had been particular noisy in the part of the service when they are present. Afterwards collecting my child from the creche a visting father who was picking his child up commented on how quiet the children had been during the service. He was obviously used to a lot more noise.
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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
You can do that as well in the church as out.
So the attitude here, ken, is that "if I have to listen to the screaming brat cry, so does everyone else"? Could you possibly be ANY more self-centered and inconsiderate?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
So the attitude here, ken, is that "if I have to listen to the screaming brat cry, so does everyone else"? Could you possibly be ANY more self-centered and inconsiderate?
I don't think I've ever called a crying child as a "screaming brat". Or even thought it.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I notice you didn't deny the rest of it.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
Erin - I put up with you in my world, much as I'd like not to hear you scream ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) you are part of the community. Sorry if you don't like the fact that babies are part of your community - but they are.
A church without babies is going to be a non-existent church pretty soon. Funny how the Shakers aren't very numerous, isn't it?
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
Chukovsky, having consideration and accomodation for both those with small children and those who don't want to listen to their outbursts during the service is a far far cry (no pun intended) from having "a church without babies."
You seem to feel it's o.k. to willfully inflict one's difficult children on those who simply want to worship in peace. Your arrogance to those in the latter catagory is breathtaking.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
Well, if you disrupt worship by wearing a loud jumper, singing off-key, mispronouncing names in the Bible, or having a seizure during the service, I promise not to complain about those either, if you feel that participating in the service is still what you want to do.
Not everyone, adults or children, behaves perfectly. We are still their brothers and sisters.
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
Erin - I put up with you in my world, much as I'd like not to hear you scream you are part of the community. Sorry if you don't like the fact that babies are part of your community - but they are.
A church without babies is going to be a non-existent church pretty soon. Funny how the Shakers aren't very numerous, isn't it?
Okay, who on this thread said anything about babies not being allowed in church? There really is a difference, you know, between normal children's behavior -- which no one here has objected to -- and screaming like a Banshee. I don't care how much you would like to participate -- if your child is screeching at the top of his/her lungs, you cannot participate in anything.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
<snip!>
Actually, I have a better idea. How about a quiet, video-linked room for people who don't like noise? They could have the words of the sermon and the hymns as subtitles, then they wouldn't have to listen to anything at all, or acknowledge that their are children in the world?
Funny you should say that...my church family rents from a synagogue. The elders asked the Jewish elders if we could build a sort of mobile for the pastor and staff, which they graciously allowed. In that very mobile, the breast-feeding mothers go and watch the service on the tv there. The pastor own wife has used this on more than one occasion.
So at my church, we have
a) mobile room with tv for viewing
b) nursery set up with rotating volunteers (including me)
STILL, we get some screamers. Fortunately, being a rather uptight church once in a while has advantages...people always seem to get up after awhile with screaming baby and take him/her out for awhile since you can feel the "your baby is being disruptive vibes".
As much as I love these babies and their parents, their is simply no excuse for dragging an over-tired/sick/colicky baby into church. The baby needs more attention too and the parent is refusing to acknowledge that when they ignore the cries of a baby crying out. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
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Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
I'm not talking exclusion of those with children. I'm not talking about minor disturbances, or even calm-one-minute/upset-one-minute (child) cycles. I'm not endorsing nasty looks toward struggling parents, and would just as soon confront a parishoner who would send them as one who'd walk over and knock a parent upside the head. I'm not talking about drunks, the mentally ill, or disabled, or gum-chewers, or nose-pickers, or off-key singers (though I'm tempted to start a thread on that one; it may not be what you'd expect). I think churches have an obligation to accommodate children and their families in terms of facilities. I think that worship services do not exist in a vacuum, and that inclusion is a principle of all Christian bodies. I think more church men (in Ken's example) should spend time in nurseries and 'crying rooms.' And, when whimpering turns to crying turns to wailing turns to screaming, I think parents ought to recognize the sanctity of worship and even temporarily remove their troubled child for whatever reason, be it hunger, fatigue, filth in the diaper, tummy trouble, etc.
Sharkshooter: Your kid(s) may well become the nurses, doctors, police officers, government workers, piano player(s), and/or clergymen who impact our lives for the better/longer because of their respect/love for the health, safety, freedom, enjoyment, and souls of the rest of us. And if they should in turn have children of their own who are crying/screaming uncontrollably during a worship service, I hope that in the spirit of that same respect/love they'll remove them until they're settled down.
Ken said: quote:
Do you send the parents of a crying child out of their home?
s - t - r - e - t - c - h. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
I forgot.
Presleyterian, thanks for your post.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
So, the Riv, what would you endorse where the parent is at church on their own, and there is nowhere else to take the child, or some other reason why the parent cannot take the child out?
And why is is worse to have a disruptive child than a disruptive adult? An adult who is having a loud seizure is no more or less in control of their disruptiveness than a parent who has tried everything is necessarily in control of their offspring.
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Explain this "nowhere else to take the child" thing. Are they being held at gunpoint?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Paul W.
Shipmate
# 1450
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Posted
Of course, the best answer is found in a pentecostal church. There, you can stand imposingly over the mother, and declare in a loud voice "This child has a demon in it." Then attempt to perform an exorcism. I guarentee the mother will remove the child from the room very quickly.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Paul
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Posts: 2835 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: Oct 2001
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
Personally, I have never remained in a church service of any kind while my children cried, no matter how loudly.
We rarely attended church for 4 years because both of our kids were, for a time, rather difficult. Not once did anyone call, or come visit to find out what was wrong, or why we did not attend any more. It was the worst 4 years of my life. No church. No friends. No community.
However, I will support those parents who remain in church even with a crying child. If it is too disturbing for you, pray for strength for the parents, that they can deal with the kids, the crying, and the unkind looks they inevitably get. Pray for the kids, something is obviously bothering them. Pray for yourself, and everybody else who has to listen to it. But, do not turn them away. Worship can take many forms. If you cannot hear the sermon, there are alternatives.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Explain this "nowhere else to take the child" thing. Are they being held at gunpoint?
See Moth's posts - not all churches consist of more than one room. The choice, as she says, can be "church with intermittently crying child" or "no church (or about five minutes of church per week) for a year".
The choice might also temporarily be "leave church with all offspring including the one that's supposed to be in the nativity play" or "church with crying child", whereas on other occasions it may be "no church alternate weeks because child cries five minutes into service alternate weeks".
The latter may be supportable, even over the course of a year, but the former choice might just have to come out as "church with crying child so other offspring can be in nativity play".
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
Very good advice, Paul.
As for adults with loud seizures , I've never seen that in church. If it's a medical emergency, then goodness, get a docter to the poor guy. Who cares about quiet then. If it's something else and he or she can walk, certainly he can go out until it's over. Heck, I've done that before if my allergies or coughs are too much for me to keep quiet.
The arguments in favor of making a worship service a wailing romper room are getting rather flimsy, are they not?
In any case, I can't think of any adult worship service behavior more distracting than a screaming child -- except perhaps an adult who doesn't have enough sense to remove a screaming child.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
There really is a difference, you know, between normal children's behavior -- which no one here has objected to -- and screaming like a Banshee. I don't care how much you would like to participate -- if your child is screeching at the top of his/her lungs, you cannot participate in anything.
There is a continuum from the contented to the distressed, and noise tends to be proportional. Parents try very hard to keep their child up the happy quiet end - not just for the hour in church but throughout those early years and in all sorts of places. It is unpleasant queueing up at the supermarket with a child who is hungry and bored and therefore noisy. You don't go out for posh meals with a small child in tow, but you might, on a day out at the zoo, say, risk a snack in the cafe, and if the child is tired and unhappy and cries loudly, it is upsetting all round.
You can't stay at home all the time, so you risk these situations and hope that you can keep at the good end of the continuum. You have successes and failures, times when everything stays sweet and soft and times when it all gets horrid and loud. You occasionally feel you actually belong to the human race again, but then there are spells where you are unable to do anything grown up and normal at all.
Church is one of the most difficult places to take a small child. In some ways it is like a concert (which you wouldn't dream of taking a child to). Most people try their best to amuse their children and hope that the inevitable disruption stays within acceptable limits. If it doesn't, most people will take their child out, if they know where to go.
The trouble is that what one person considers acceptable behaviour another will tut at, and what one considers an unhappy child, but maybe it'll calm down in a minute or two, another will describe as a brat screaming like a banshee.
These attitudes can be very difficult. It is deeply embarrassing to be the parent of a noisy child in church. If angry feelings are communicated to the parent they will probably avoid coming again.
Parents need to feel that others in the congregation are willing to tolerate a little disruption. To understand that people would prefer the distraction of them cuddling their child and pacing up and down at the back than to see them leave altogether. To feel that it is OK if they get it wrong sometimes and try to pacify a child who turns out to be at the start of a major bawl and has, in the end, to be taken out.
If the worst comes to the worst, a sermon can be stopped and started again. Rowan Williams has even suggested that there might be times when a congregation could be invited to listen to the sounds of an unhappy child as an expression of worship, carrying the distress of the people to God.
Here in Ilkley, one woman has come to church every Sunday for the last five months and not once succeeded in staying in to the end of the service, because of the demands of her young child. (Though it may also have something to do with the quality of the preaching.)
I have resolved that the notice sheet next Sunday should contain some words to reassure and relax people, and say that we will do all we can to accommodate children, support their parents, and cheerfully tolerate the small and occasional impositions made on us when things go wrong.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
Not all seizures need a doctor (for some people having the doctor round every time they have a seizure would be 2-3 times a day...). A shipmate who may like to relate more details here was telling me about a member of her church who had regular seizures, usually I gather a certain amount of time after getting up i.e. usually during the service. All they need is to be able to be lain down quietly, but they are pretty disruptive while they last. And you can't take yourself out - and if they happen most days you're not ever going to be able to go to church.
You seem to be doing the I'M SINGING LOUDLY WITH MY FINGERS IN MY EARS SO I CAN'T HEAR YOU type of argument, to be honest, MtP. Sharkshooter has just told us he never went to church for FOUR years (which incidentally was a cross-post with mine and I was not going to say someone might have to miss church for more than one year because I thought it might not be believable!). Would you be happy doing that? Would you consider it "church" if someone gave you a tape of the service each week and said "there, you've been to church"?
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This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Irvin D Yalom
Shipmate
# 2833
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
So once again: church is for the families. Single people can piss off.
Swiftian.
Posts: 227 | From: U.K. | Registered: May 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
So, the Riv, what would you endorse where the parent is at church on their own, and there is nowhere else to take the child, or some other reason why the parent cannot take the child out?
And why is is worse to have a disruptive child than a disruptive adult? An adult who is having a loud seizure is no more or less in control of their disruptiveness than a parent who has tried everything is necessarily in control of their offspring.
Well shucks, chukovsky, Erin beat me to you. Are there that many one-room 'meeting houses' still in use? No foyers? No hallways? No loos? I just fail to believe that there are all that many facilities without facilities, even of the most makeshift kind. I mean, you don't have to concoct some ken-esque hypothesis to make a point. In the case that there are only four walls, a door on either end and a few windows to let in light under the roof,
and the adults are ritually stapled to their seats, I suppose that I, like the rest of the congregation, would be happily resigned to my church's reality, and endure.
To your second notion: Personally, I would consider a siezure a medical situation that would require immediate, corporate attention, including a pause in the service, as a heart attack, stroke, feinting spell, or accident (falling down steps) would until proper aid was administered. (I have witnessed all of these during worship.)
Single parent? I'd offer my assistnace as I've said and done before. But don't refuse and be indignant of the suggestion that the disruption (uncontrollable screaming baby, specifically) was beyond reasonable tolerance.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I'm not even talking about foyers or halls. I'm talking about inside/outside. I have never been in a church where there was no door to the exterior of the building, where parents with their screaming kids were trapped inside it against their will. If your child is shrieking, get up off your butt and take the kid outside.
It's not rocket science, for fuck's sake. I mean, I'm one of the clueless ones who doesn't have a kid and even I could figure that one out. It's kinda frightening that those of you who haven't are actually raising children.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
No, chukovsky, I've said repeatedly churches should accomodate both those with small children and those who don't want to endure their prolonged outbursts.
I've also expressed sympathy for those with small children. (And I've read the difficulties of having small children with sympathy, believe me.) Maybe you need to take the fingers out of your ears.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Hatless:
I appreciate your post, but offer this: You said:
quote:
The trouble is that what one person considers acceptable behaviour another will tut at, and what one considers an unhappy child, but maybe it'll calm down in a minute or two, another will describe as a brat screaming like a banshee.
Again, my OP mentioned common decency. I would hope that one would pause with the onset of a child's crying spasm and allow the parent time to try the many tricks of the trade in mid-service progeny calming. But, it's not unrealistic to assert that after a couple of minutes of incessant bawling that a parent ought to excuse him/herself w/kid in tow. We could go on splitting hairs all day re: one person's party as another's purgatory. C'mon, two or three minutes of nonstop crying is enough for anyone, including the child.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Of course, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that if a couple stays away from church for four solid years, there's something going on more than just a fussy kid. There are always options:
1) As The Riv said, have one parent step out to comfort the child while the other stays in the pew. We're not talking about a little fussing or fidgeting here. We're talking banshee level, which isn't a 24/7 occurence even for the most colicky baby.
2) Switch to a church that has a reliable nursery.
3) Switch to a church that has a baby room with piped-in sound.
4) Dad stays home with the kid while Mom goes to church. Switch places next week.
5) Team up with other parents of kids the same age. Alternate by week who goes to church and who tends the lot.
6) Team up with parents of kids the same age. Go to the 9:00 service while they look after your kids. Look after their kids while they go to the 11:00.
7) If finances allow, hire a babysitter.
8) If finances don't allow, go to the church leadership, explain the sitution, and see if a kindly soul will sit with the kids once a month or so as an act of service.
9) While the kid is still young, stick to family-type services where this kind of thing is more easily handled.
No one is attempting to excommunicate parents or children here. All that is being asked is for a little common courtesy. If your cell phone rings because you forgot to deactivate it before a service, you immediately turn it off. You don't let it ring ten times and then answer it and carry on a conversation to the distraction of those around you.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
But, it's not unrealistic to assert that after a couple of minutes of incessant bawling that a parent ought to excuse him/herself w/kid in tow. We could go on splitting hairs all day re: one person's party as another's purgatory. C'mon, two or three minutes of nonstop crying is enough for anyone, including the child.
No, it's not unrealistic, and I do agree. Two or three minutes of nonstop crying is more than enough (though it may well be far from enough for the child.)
The problem is the attitudes. When people express annoyance strongly, then parents will be unsure that even a few seconds' noise, or a single minute's moderate whining is acceptable.
You talked of:
quote:
a couple of minutes of incessant bawling
If a couple of minutes is incessant in your book, and if I as a parent hear you express this view I will be put off bringing my child anywhere near you. I will think you have a very low tolerance and I will expect your disapproval as soon as my child becomes audible.
In order for people with children to feel welcome, they need to be told that their child and the noise it may make is our problem, everyone's problem. The welcome must be inclusive of parent and child and the practical problem of a child in a place of worship.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Presleyterian: ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
hatless said: quote:
If a couple of minutes is incessant in your book, and if I as a parent hear you express this view I will be put off bringing my child anywhere near you. I will think you have a very low tolerance and I will expect your disapproval as soon as my child becomes audible.
You make the mistake of anticipating some kind of wrath from the likes of me. I'm already on record for 1. Offering assistance in said situations, and 2. Disapproving of meanness of any kind toward parents in this particular bind. I don't disapprove of children crying. But two to three minutes is enough, IMHO. I used incessant b/c as a parent, I can usually tell when it's going to take a bit for my kid to cry it out. Sometimes kids cry harder b/c THEY'RE CRYING. Change to relentless if it helps you understand. No visible disapproval from me, but internal aggravation? Yes, and it will certainly remain non esspressivo. If I reach out to offer help, it will be (are you listening Sharkshooter?) in love, friendliness, and consideration of the child, parent, and congregation.
If you need a sitter for Friday I may be available...
Oh yeah, Presleyterian?
And just to cover my bases, hey Erin? ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) Uh, wait, this is Hell: ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Qestia
Marshwiggle
# 717
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Posted
I hate to be childish, but
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
WHAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAWHAAAAAAAAAAA WAWAWAWAWA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Surely we agree that this is annoying and disruptive, and if, as an adult, I have some power to stop it or stop it from happening in the context of this thread, where it will detract in a meaningless way from the discussion at hand, I should do so.
And for those who have suggested praying for strength and tolerance when people who have the power to do something about whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa don't, believe me, I beat you to it.
[You broke the scroll lock with your screaming. Get out. Now.]
[ 18. December 2002, 20:32: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
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I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t an Aslan to lead it.
I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.
Posts: 1213 | From: Boston | Registered: Jul 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Fair enough, Riv. And Qestia, ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I still say, though, that we haven't become properly inclusive of people until we have 'adopted' their limitations and sensitivities as our own. Crying babies are a problem, but whose problem? Who should find the solution?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Nell
Apprentice
# 3380
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Posted
Hmm - lots of interesting views on this thread. Perhaps some of you can help me sort out my confused feelings re kiddies in my church. Screaming babies seem to bug me less than toddlers and young children.
In our services we usually send the kids of all ages out for most of the service, to their various fun activity groups. They are allowed back in for the last 10-15 mins.Such a short time, and yet I do get profoundly distracted and irritated by a few 'antics'
e.g
running up and down the aisles
crawling under the chairs
giggling
playing with noisy toys
fighting with each other ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
(older kids) texting each other on mobiles
Now what I don't understand in why, with all this going on, there are still quite a few kids who are able to sit quietly with their parents for 10 minutes! Is this really so long to sit quietly??? Knowing the problems I have with some teenagers at school sitting in seats for an hour, I wonder if children need to be trained from a young age to do this.
So - am I an unreasonable grumpy young fogey, or is it just that I can't get out of 'teacher mode'. I do seem to have developed an irrational dislike of baseball caps worn in church ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) , (in spite of my own determination as a teen to wear what I liked to church!)
The scary thing is that I'm thinking of having kids myself soon - am I too intolerant?! I'm worried about becoming one of the 'my child will be well behaved' brigade, and then having to eat my words!
Posts: 31 | From: Cambridge UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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seadog
Shipmate
# 2931
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
nicolemrw, you ask why busyknitter's non-churchgoing partner cannot babysit. It may be that he WILL NOT oblige for church. Seadog has made a similar comment in an earlier post and in my past experince the atheistical Sponsa Amabilis flatly refused to mind an unweaned, untoilet-trained infant while I went off to what he descibed as "your Popish fripperies".
Thank you Multipara for making this point and thereby preventing me from starting a long, ranting post of my own. Suffice to say you lot on the ship are the closest I get to a church, and I know that if half of you could hear my kids I wouldn't be welcome here either. Bummer .
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A good landing is a succession of errors rapidly corrected.
Posts: 433 | From: Isle of Wight, UK | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hull Hound
Shipmate
# 2140
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nell:
Now what I don't understand in why, with all this going on, there are still quite a few kids who are able to sit quietly with their parents for 10 minutes!
We don't know the answer for certain. It could be the fidget gene, it could be television and soda pop. It's probably our expecations, which should be high.
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ahhh ... Bisto!
Posts: 1167 | From: Hull | Registered: Jan 2002
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
No one is talking about not "welcoming" parents with young children. I think that point's been made and iterated and reiterated. All that is being asked is that on the rare occasion that a baby engages in an extended yowlfest that prevents others from hearing the sermon or listening to the music, could the parent please step out of the sanctuary for a moment until the child has simmered down. That doesn't strike me as being unwelcoming; that strikes me as common courtesy.
And hatless, re your question: quote:
Crying babies are a problem, but whose problem? Who should find the solution?
Isn't the logical choice the person responsible for the crying baby?
P.S. to Seadog: Perhaps more than anyone else, a person married to an unbelieving spouse needs to be in church for the sake of his or her own sanity. Those are exactly the kind of extentuating circumstances in which I think many, many churchgoers would be eager to lend a hand.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seadog:
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
nicolemrw, you ask why busyknitter's non-churchgoing partner cannot babysit. It may be that he WILL NOT oblige for church. Seadog has made a similar comment in an earlier post and in my past experince the atheistical Sponsa Amabilis flatly refused to mind an unweaned, untoilet-trained infant while I went off to what he descibed as "your Popish fripperies".
Thank you Multipara for making this point and thereby preventing me from starting a long, ranting post of my own. Suffice to say you lot on the ship are the closest I get to a church, and I know that if half of you could hear my kids I wouldn't be welcome here either. Bummer .
I have to say that any husband of mine who refused to watch HIS OWN CHILD, the FRUIT OF HIS LOINS for an hour while I went to church would find his sorry ass out on the street, face down in the pavement, with my bootprint on his back, in a New York minute.
And yes, I was married to a strong atheist, and yes, we did actually have his offspring living with us, so I have some knowledge of where I speak. That mofo would have been history the very first time he opened his mouth and that complete bullshit spewed out.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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