Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Screaming babies during worship
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
OK then. Hell notwithstanding here's a serious question from someone who would like to get it right with loudly screaming youngsters and their parents. (I'm not talking about baptisms or one-off children's services where this is taken as de rigeur.)
If a child has just gone into a fit of hysterics, is clearly and loudly unhappy with their situation, but Mum and/or Dad remain rooted to the pew, is it right/wrong for a sidesman to discretely suggest that they might like to move to the creche area/family room to find something fun to entertain hysterical child.
Is it right/wrong to seek to alleviate the possible embarrassment of parents in this way, particularly if they are not aware of the facilities available and are staying in their seats because they don't know what else to do (is it right to move from one's seat after the starter's flag has gone up?).
Or should the sidesman/warden assume that the parent has made a completely calm and reasonable decision that this is the best place to be while their baby has its screaming fit, and steer well clear, in case s/he gives the impression that parent and child are not welcome?
Setting aside the nasty issue of the intolerant who give dirty looks to family folk (shame!), there are usually many folk in a congregation who would genuinelly like to reassure parents caught in the screaming baby situation, and help. So how do we know when it is right to help, and how to help best? Or if they should avoid offering assistance for fear of offending, or in case it isn't seen as assistance but interference?
From the above suggestions, I have to admit, even with the best intentions, I would be very confused about knowing how to help parents in this way. It's easy for special one-off services to point out before the beginning where all the facilities are and to tell people they should feel comfortable about getting up and going where they need to go, or to have a wander round at the back of the building or whatever; but it's not always preferable to preface every Sunday service with this.
Is it possible, in fact, that as individual parents, everyone has their own particular way of 'coping' and that regardless of the best efforts of congregations to include every kind of situation into their worship, we will always get it wrong, in somebody's sight? In other words, it would seem that the weight of responsibility for dealing with the 'problem' (and actually what a lovely problem to have, let's be honest!) really must lie with the legal guardian of the afflicted child; whether in responding to offers of 'help' from congregation members, or in taking the initiative themselves?
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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hatless
 Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Anselmina, I think that a sidesman (if that's the right word - sidesperson??!) or some other church person of experience and capability should indeed offer help to the parent of a screaming child, for the sake of the parent, and of everyone else.
Someone who, like you, realises that this is a difficult situation, that hot-under-the-collar parents might take anything the wrong way, and that misunderstandings, like shit, just happen, is probably the best qualified of all to offer such help. In my opinion.
I would like to add, on a more optimistic note, that screaming children are pretty rare phenomena. Children are disruptive, and parents are forever trying to ameliorate their effect on worship, but it's usually mild stuff and the less starchy church can cope without noticing - most of the time. All anyone needs is a bit of slack. You know, those things Paul was so fond of: love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness - all that stuff. I recommend it.
Incidentally, I recently saw a bit of footage of a baptismal service in a Russian Orthodox Church. There were lots of babies, brought forwards one by one, unwrapped, and handed to the priest who lifted them high in the air, then dunked them three times in the water. The soundtrack to the film was muted as there was a voice over, but I would think it was pretty noisy in there. And the priest looked so cheerful!
-------------------- My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Chorister
 Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The problem of announcing what child-friendly facilities there are every week can be partly relieved by writing it on the front of the notice sheet which is given to everyone as they enter church (assuming toddler hasn't immediately grabbed it and ripped it up!) Our sidesmen are also trained to welcome young families with information about the toy area and creche/Sunday School facilities.
Other approaches I have heard is the priest announcing (when it was obvious there were a lot of very young children present) 'please feel free to walk up and down or come in and out as you need' or even the cringe-making 'don't feel embarrassed if the baby makes a noise - it is their way of worshipping'!
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
To make this discussion a bit seasonal - maybe Herod had the right idea.
Or the Child Catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.
That should sort the problem.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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ptarmigan
Shipmate
# 138
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Posted
I've just received the following pertinent / humourous e-card from the Church Times. (Guess others have too).
Church Times ecard
{URL was incorrect.} [ 21. December 2002, 12:14: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
-------------------- All shall be well. And all shall be well. And all manner of things shall be well. (Julian of Norwich)
Posts: 1080 | From: UK - Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
 Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
You beat me to it, Ptarmigan!
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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duchess
 Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
[warning: pre-caffeine tangent]
quote: I have to say that any husband of mine who refused to watch HIS OWN CHILD, the FRUIT OF HIS LOINS for an hour while I went to church would find his sorry...
For some reason, I keep thinking of fruit of the loom underwear/briefs when I read this.
[/warning: pre-caffeine tangent]
Now, I am going off to get some java...
-------------------- ♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮ Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Sine Nomine*
 Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
A number of years ago at my church there was a lot of muttering from those not blessed with progeny about the bad behavior of some of the children in the congo. These were not babies or toddlers but in the nine, ten year old range.
One Sunday our priest, who normally preaches from the chancel steps, mounted the pulpit for her sermon. We always know somebody is going to "get it" when she preaches from the pulpit.
She started in about parents needing to control their children, and the non-reproduced among us started exchanging satisfied smiles. However she soon turned to our failings, smugness, and general uncharitableness.
After chastising both the breeders and the non-breeders she wound up by saying "And I want all of you to just GET A GRIP!"
I've never forgotten it, and since then have saved my icy stares for adults who chatter through the closing voluntary.
I've also never forgotten a then childless friend of mine saying "When I have children I'll never allow them to behave like that." She now has two young ones and I delight in reminding her of this comment. The flip side is, I'm the older one's godparent & have had to remove him from the service on more than one occasion when his mother was otherwise occupied in the choir. I hate that fixed, embarrassed smile I wear as we skulk down the aisle and out the door to the narthex.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
quote: A number of years ago at my church there was a lot of muttering from those not blessed with progeny about the bad behavior of some of the children in the congo.
visions of a long line of children, dancing through the church in single file "la la la la la la- la la la la la la
BK
Posts: 903 | From: The Wool Basket | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bagpuss
 Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
Not read all of the posts so apologies if I'm duplicating but
a) I got my kids baptised and take them to church because what's the point otherwise? I'm not a fan of let them decide their faith for themselves when they're older - how can they decide what they don't know about?
b) The biggest complainers about kids and babies in my experience are the old dears in the Mothers' Union (or should that be the great grandmas' union?)who talk all the way through communion but give you the evils if your child dares speak one wrod.
My response - a note very Christian one of **** off they are at a FAMILY service if they don't like it go to one of the 4 other services that are available that NO kids turn up to.
I was once serving on the altar and the aforemantioned members of the MU who knew my husband extremely well sat back moaning and watched my hubby juggle a 6 month old baby in one arm with a bottle he didn't want (I was feeding him myself) whilst trying to catch a rampant 2 year old who kept flying past him. The vicar was so p*d off with the situation he stopped the service and gave the OAPs a lecture. Hooray!
My new church on the contrary has a great crowd of oldies who are all super stars so it can be achieved!!!!!!
Posts: 473 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Janine
 The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
I understand that 'sleep-deprived parent/spouse of a non-cooperative non-Christian' types desperately need to be there.
I was the non-cooperative non-Christian for a while years. My husband hobbled faithfully off to services on crutches for months, with a hip-to-ankle cast after knee surgery, carrying Bibles and diaper bags and an infant and leading the toddler. No help from me.
His determination through that time was a factor in my becoming a Christian.
Also, I've felt and functioned like a single parent, when his work kept him away from many church assemblies for months at a time, later on with the next baby.
So, please believe my sympathy/empathy. Having said all that...
Any noise over a certain decibel-level needs to be hushed or removed or adapted for services. Cell phones and watch alarms turned off (oh, God, please make it so...)
The nursery needs to be made comforting and accomodating. It need not be soundproof or even totally enclosed. Ours has sound piped in, windows to the outside, and a half-door, so we can close the bottom and still be aware of the comings and goings in the front foyer.
The only noise problem we've not been faced with in my time there has been a handicapped person with really loud uncontrolled outbursts.
So far, all my handicapped brothers and sisters keep their uncontrolled outbursts quieter than the cell phones and babies.
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Janine: I understand that 'sleep-deprived parent/spouse of a non-cooperative non-Christian' types desperately need to be there.
Oh dear, when I'm sleep-deprived (though not in possession of a spouse cooperative or otherwise) I usually feel the last place I want to be is in church! I usually feel more desperately in need of my bed. Oh, Lord have mercy on me a sinner... and a damn lazy one at that!
On a more serious note, it's been an education hearing parents' views on this thread - I know it's hell but 'hey, thanks for sharing guys!' ((((hugs))))
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
 Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Something very nice once happened at a church I belonged to at the time.
A woman with an eight-year-old autistic son started coming. After a few months she told the rector she thought she should stop coming because of the noises and motions her son made. (AFAIK no one had complained, but the mother was afraid her son's behavior was OTT.) The rector had another idea.
The next Sunday at announcement time he went to the pew where the boy was sitting, took him in his arms, and carried him to the front of the church.
He spoke to the congregation, "This is Mike. He is autistic. He makes odd noises and movements. He can't adjust to us, so we have to adjust to him." It was a very moving moment.
The mother stopped worrying about the situation and was free to participate in the service from then on.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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HoosierNan
Shipmate
# 91
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Posted
There's currently an essay on the home page here at Ship of Fools about wanting to ignore or deny all messiness in the world. Which I assume would include unhappy babies and clueless parents. Perhaps some of you would like to read it and think about it in terms of this thread. Others will not. Whatever.
Posts: 795 | From: Indiana, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, you know what they say about making assumptions...
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Of course, there are some members of the set who cannot stand to hear a baby cry who have a far more universal aversion to any 'noise' or other distractions during worship. I have been to churches here and there where it was obvious that, were someone to drop dead during a service, the only concern of some members of the congregation was that his falling over spoilt their concentration.
I mention this only because, while I do think it is wise to have somewhere for parents to take babies who are fretful or need to be changed (and so forth), parents of little ones must know that they are not alone. The people who object to a baby's crying are the same sorts who bluntly ask someone who coughs to leave (notice that they do not care about the other person)... as one example.
-------------------- Cheers, Elizabeth “History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amos
 Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
This evening we had our Crib Service. Every family in town whose baby was christened at the church this year got an invitation, and last years' invitees returned, and the various babies in the congregation came, along with parents and grandparents, and the grandchildren of some of our older members. There were about eighty-five babies and toddlers in the church, not to mention the older children, and the adults. And--wonder of wonders--there was no screaming. One little lad (age 2) slammed the toybox lid in the kids' corner a few times, and then went for a walk up and down the aisles. My boss explained and lit the Advent wreath, and told the Christmas story , and the kids helped put the animals, the Holy Family, and the shepherds into the stable at the right moments. We sang three carols and prayed a couple of prayers. Various very cute things were done and said by the littlest ones. I can't explain why nobody screamed--we were prepared for all eventualities--but think it had something to do with a) the service being SHORT b) the parents being prepared to subsume their own worship to their childrens'. This is not generally possible on a Sunday morning, or at any service where the parents have themselves come to worship. c) the hour: babies had just been fed and changed, toddlers were filled with wonder at being out so late, and then amazed by the ancient, candlelit church. d) everyone feeling tolerant and relaxed. These conditions cannot generally be reproduced at regular Sunday services.
-------------------- At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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