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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Calling God to Hell
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
Too damn right Ruth. Thanks for saying that.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
Pyx_e, Erin's right. We have our moments, our days of yelling at God, of telling him how much life hurts. But this is balanced by the awareness that he is God - and as Newman's Own expressed it so well, therein lies the frustration.
Why is he silent and dark for some people? Why is he so distant when we seem to have given our all? Are we to assume that he despises our gifts to him because he is silent? Does he despise our moanings? And if so, why?
It's all very well to talk about the Incarnation as though it fixes the world's problems. Which it does in the broad sense. But it is cold and comfortless when you perceive this Incarnate God, who knows what it's like to be human, to be turning his face in utter indifference. Who could help but ask "Why?".
Yet even the "Why?" demanded in crushing anguish is hedged about in the need to adore and worship, the recognition that we are nothing, that we are totally transparent to the Divine Eye...
*sigh*
Is there something wrong with our paradigm? Are we beholding a conflict between two different ways of relating to God, the one characterised by contemplative prayer ending in union, the other by living the "material" gospel without regard to how one actually relates to God...? Maybe there is a flaw here. Maybe some of us embark on the contemplative path thinking it easier or more suited to us than the rough and tumble in the mud path of feeding the hungry, clothing the orphans etc etc. I really don't think this is true, because classically those most steeped in contemplative prayer were also very active, indeed it is said works of charity and prayer must go together. I ask myself: is it because I am not being charitable, not directly doing all the charity-type stuff, that my relationship with God crumbled?
I don't know. It is possible to get into a confused tangle minutely examining the "why", when the likely answer is, it's a bit of everything, and a bit of nothing... In otherwords, there is no answer.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I used to think that perhaps God Is Dead And No One Cares (nods to Trent Reznor). Now I'm considering that God Never Lived And Many People Grieve It.
Regardless, I would be lying if I didn't admit that I've felt the same sort of frustrating existential angst without even being a part of any religion. I am pained that the only slivers of truth that I seem capable of savouring are completely subjective.
Of course, that could just be the invisible platypus (that lives inside my spleen tells me what to do) poking me again.
Nunc: Do me a favour? Eat some chocolate for me. I'm trying to cut back for the sake of my complexion, but I really miss it's soothing effect. Perhaps just knowing that somewhere out there some chocolate was being demolished would make me feel a little bit better.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Thanks RooK - an excuse to eat chocolate and I'm in there!
(that thought sounds too heavenly for hell........)
One of the worst endings to a hymn I have ever come across is:
If ourlove were but more simple
We should take him at his word
And our lives would be all sunshine
In the sweetness of our Lord
Personally I prefer the psalms - I think Nunc's and Newman's Own's and Arietty's posts above sound like psalms - and they are so much more true of real human experience than sugary sweet piety.
Too many churches have gone for the 'happy all the time' route and have cut out a whole chunk of expressing human experience. Sometimes to me the Iona services dwell too much on this and I find them depressing, but in small doses maybe that is most needed to convey how we really feel at times.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Nunc: Do me a favour? Eat some chocolate for me. I'm trying to cut back for the sake of my complexion, but I really miss it's soothing effect. Perhaps just knowing that somewhere out there some chocolate was being demolished would make me feel a little bit better.
ROFL. Rook, unfortunately I renounced chocolate last year (serious chocolate anyway) so I can't follow your suggestion... I am slowly savouring the wonderful stuff Kelly Alves kindly sent my way - but no such thing as eating it as comfort food now. At least, Weightwatchers tries to discourage comfort food eating... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
So Chorister, I hereby nominate you as the Official Chocolate Demolisher for all those who suffer from Existential Angst (or the Absence of God). ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Sorry I've taken so long to get back to you, Nunc. I had to make a supernova in Andromeda yesterday and the trip through the wormhole was brutal.
The crux of the problem here is that the Bible leads some of you to believe that I am a person. I'm not. I didn't really walk with Adam in the Garden of Eden, nor did I speak to Moses out of a burning bush, nor do I have a personal relationship with born-again Christians like George Bush.
This is the truth: I am the Good that you can seek if you choose to, in spite of all the Evil there is.
I just am. Evil just is. I "can't" get rid of it any more than gravity can get rid of light or vice versa. It's not a matter of "can't." It's a matter of "doesn't." You are the one who "does" or "doesn't." I simply "am."
You have an eye for the light of Truth and a sense for the warmth of Love. At times Truth is only a tiny dot and Love is so far away that you can't feel it. When you see the light of Truth, start walking in that direction. You'll find others, with whom you can share Truth and Love. Don't be surprised if lots of them are Christians but don't be shocked if some aren't. You should start to feel the warmth from the light around the time you meet other seekers. The closer you get to the light, the less darkness there will be. Someday, nothing but light. Pure light.
I'll meet you there. Nice chatting.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Among the dust of death on this thread, there is gold.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
I've been reading this thread for the last few days though I'd been posting connected ideas in the 'p**d off with God' thread in Purgatory. At first this hell thread seemed less accessible to me, because people were addressing God and I'm barely speaking to him. I find it easier to bitch and complain to others than to question the Almighty, also you never know if some well-meaning Shipmate will answer for him.
Amen to Sean D saying...
quote:
The Psalms are a mixture, like human lives and emotions. Some perk up at the end, but by no means all. Psalms 60, 74, 88 and 137 do not, for example.
And I'm glad other people challenged ChristinaMarie, I couldn't easily articulate the range of feelings so well summarised by Wanderer's post. Cheers.
I guess I don't expect God to appear and answer these complaints. Others have made the comparison with Job and he did seem satisfied in the end with God's lack of a direct response to his questions. Though maybe if you're suddenly welcomed back into God's obvious favour the questions melt into insignificance. Another key thing for me is how God was happy with Job's ranting - that it was the 'friends' he was displeased with.
Rant away at God, people, especially if it makes you feel better. I'm not sure what to recommend for those who have given up on that stage though. I think I'm too weary and just can't be a***d. It all seems too hopeless. F*** it.
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I must say that this has become one of the most thought provoking, moving threads that I have seen on the Ship - and in Hell, of all places. Bear with me, since I am in sleepy mode today, but I have a few thoughts (and the expression is a bit wry).
I would say that, for many of us, it seems that God left us to merely hope for heaven later - and, if we've read the works of mystics and great theologians (who already had reached a point of unusual detachment by the time they took pen in hand!), it is easy to think (for example) that all God can bring is forgiveness (therefore a hope for union with him.) Well, heaven knows we all need forgiveness now and then, and are grateful for this, but the other side of this is wondering why one who, in his human life, performed miracles of healing (again, for example) but has no interest in easing the pains of this earth now. It rather gives the impression that those miraculous acts were a mere advertisement for his greatness... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I am not about to give examples (for the sake of discretion), but, speaking from what I have seen in the lives of many who dedicated themselves to service, there can be enormous loss, suffering, even being the victim of criminal behaviour (or, at the very least, manipulation) in the process. Not to mention that many of the devout are actually quite innocent, and therefore perfect targets! It is possible, for example, to marvel at the wonderful trust in God and great detachment of another whose life has been unusually wicked... not realising that he actually has no conscience at all. It is only when one has been harmed in some way that one realises this!
As much as we can say (and firmly believe) that the Incarnation proves God works in creation, it seems very empty. We can speak of Jesus' ascension and our deification, and mean every word, but it becomes an abstract idea. We know we should believe that creation was transformed in Christ, yet it is hard to see how it is any better than it ever was.
I can well understand how easy it is to become involved in twisted perceptions of God (New Age, cults, whatever). There is some vague idea that God could indeed act in creation - if we could only find the proper formula by which to summon Him! (Yes, that sounds like conjuring - but the image of a remote, indifferent God who wants us only to think that heaven may be ahead, when we may have decades of misery to face first, can seem so heartless.)
(I would not include this had it not once been common.) During my convent training, we were taught never to complain, always to have a pleasant facial expression, to act remote in order to give the impression to others that we were 'recollected' in prayer, even to hide illness. Of course, there was a solid idea behind this - one does not inflict one's personal problems on those who one serves, much as a doctor does not recite his difficulties to his patients. But it went too far. We could not share pain, doubt, fear, etc., even with our own Sisters. We never had a normal conversation - about the only safe topics were the Foundress and Francis. We could not be real - lest we be accused of not 'setting a good example.' Sacrifices are a part of any life, but unnecessary actions were added just for the sake of being sacrificial.
Ultimately, the image one acquired was of a God who wants his followers to be constantly exhausted, unwell, etc. After all, happiness was for the next life. Never mind that the teaching Sister (actually kind and loving at heart) who was nasty to the children in the class acted in that fashion because she was totally exhausted, and that extensive common prayer required her to have little sleep. Rising before the crow was a 'sacrifice'!
One of the paradoxes that many of us face, I believe, is that we really want very little - and it seems that, directly as a result of trying to live the gospels, we get into deeper and deeper trouble! And then the further question arises - what of my own integrity? Could it be that I really was not seeking to follow Christ? In doing so, we contradicted what many people thought we should hold dear - were they the ones who were right?
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Hey, Nunc, my friend! (Polishes off a tasty bar of Cadbury's Flake which I have just bought).
I have also just bought a book called 'Dark Night of the Soul' by St. John of the Cross (16th century mystic) - it looks very good and is on a topic rather relevant to this thread.
A good book and an unlimited supply of chocolate.....mmmmmm......now I really have been transported to heaven. See you later, folks ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I think the idea that this world's pains are to be endured, with a reward of heaven in the world to come has been used over the centuries, by the hierarchies of the Christian Church and Christian states to justify persecution and poverty. Th misery of starvation, war and disease with a pitifully short lifespan was the lot of the average medieval European. That the church should have sought to justify this is IMO partly due to the dualist nature of much Christian thought, present in St. Augustine, but finding it's summation in Puritanism.
The pslamist who shouts at God the way Nunc Dimittis and Newman's Own are doing is far closer to God than the stoic who accepts the misery of the world in hope of reward in heaven. This is because Christianity, unlike it's Jewish ancestor is too afterlife orientated. At best ant ideas about the world to come are speculative. At worst they may be misguided. The pre-exilic Jews had no clear cut ideas about an afterlife.
"No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from his grave?"(Ps 6.5)
The essence of true faith is to cling to God in the present moment notwithstanding all the joy and woe of living on earth. Jesus said that "each day has enough trouble of it's own."(Matt 6.34) It's far more productive to rest in that faith than it is to look for a reward in a heaven we don't know much about. In spite of their agonies, from what they've said here, both Nunc and Newman's Own have immense faith and that will be salvific.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Nunc: Do me a favour? Eat some chocolate for me. I'm trying to cut back for the sake of my complexion, but I really miss it's soothing effect. Perhaps just knowing that somewhere out there some chocolate was being demolished would make me feel a little bit better.
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
RooK, I don't care what you believe, you're going to Heaven for that one. "I mourned, and you offered me chocolate..."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
When I was in the pit and God seeemed very far away - when it would really have been the easiest option just to stop believing in God, a lot easier than trying to make sense of how I felt within the context of the loving God I was told to believe in - I came across the butterfly as an ancient symbol of resurrection. I then read something about how a caterpillar turns into a butterfly. Apparently the caterpillar melts into a slush inside the chrysalis and eventually from that a butterfly is formed. This did not make me feel better but it gave me something to cling onto - a very very tiny glimmer of hope that the sense of disintegration I was undergoing was known to other Christians and just maybe would not carry on for the rest of my life getting worse and worse with only the prospect of stronger and stronger medication to look forward to.
My sympathies for all those who are there at the moment. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
this web page contains a description of what I am talking about, as well as a lot of pictures of butterflies!
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Arrietty
Thanks for the butterfly link. Here is the analogy that occurred to me when I was coming out of a bad time years ago.
If a block of marble had feelings, the work of the sculptor would hurt like hell and appear to be purely destructive. However, if the sculptor is good, the result will be beautiful.
My problem is that rather than undergo that pain, I would rather remain a shapeless block.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
But you see Moo, the marble can't see and can't possibly comprehend what's going on - or even if there is a sculptor in some cases. Sometimes it's just like it's been left out in the weather for what seems like centuries...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I can’t stop thinking about this thread. May I start by reiterating that I am in no way whatsoever casting any unsympathetic aspersions towards those who are at present going through the sorts of situations, in their lives, described in this thread. As I have said, I have been there myself and will no doubt be again.
During Mass this morning it came to me that my personal problem lies in the fact that, as a recovering alcoholic, my perception of this type of struggle both internal and external lies in two areas. Firstly I was taught early in AA to assume I was always wrong. In short for years the best thing I thought I could and should be doing was getting pissed and looking after number one. Therefore all my thoughts and feeling were fear and ego centered and hence ultimately destructive. So when sober or drunk I railed against God it was in fact me feeling sorry for myself and the pig awful situation I had got myself in to and from which I had to be willing (with God’s grace) to be extracted.
Secondly having “discovered” that the problem was mine and not God’s I had to ask myself was my anger helpful. I often found that in fact it was not. It was not because it bought me no nearer any form of solution. In fact if I was angry and resentful to God then I was building a wall between me and any form of salvation that was on offer.
Lastly, the whole point of AA and even the gospels is that to keep “it” (whatever “it” may be ; sobriety, salvation, hope, love……….) you have to give it away. And certainly I works in AA. The firm suggestion (any AA person can read suggestion as command here) is that when you feel at your worst , closest to drinking, insanity and overpowering fear go and find somebody who needs help, and help them. It flat works. I became a Christian because I see that same message through the gospel.
My gut wrenching, heart breaking, soul shaking conversion moment came upon reading this passage; “ Then he said to them all, If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it and those who lose their life for my sake will save it.” (Luke 9 23.24)
The stunning stupidity of me lies in the fact that I both seek and need Him and flee and fear Him, Lord have mercy.
Anyway, I once saw a tee shirt with a caterpillar looking up a lovely butterfly. The caption was “You can piss off if you think you are getting me up in one of those hang gliders.”
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I appreciate Pyx_e's post, and find it quite impressive as well. However, I think there is a distinction I would care to note.
Several of my closest friends (and the few men with whom I 'went' before I was in consecrated life) were alcoholics, and I had a good deal of learning to do about letting them face the consequences of their drinking. Some would have 'blacking out' where they genuinely could not remember trouble they had caused.
I know I'm being simplistic here, but, as I understand (and I am open to correction), one problem quite characteristic of the disease is that alcoholics do not take responsibility for what they have done. My dearest friend (who died in my arms of cirrhosis ten years ago this month) always had 'reasons' he was drinking - he blamed others, blamed me, etc. - and, in the next breath, would insist he had not had a drink in years. Those I knew who did get away from drinking had to admit they were powerless, but at the same time take what for many, I imagine, was the first clear look at their own failings and how they had harmed others.
For many of us, in our spiritual lives, it is quite a different matter. I'm exaggerating a bit here, to make a point: If anything, we have been inclined to think we are responsible for nearly everything! We struggle with guilt (other than that for sin), wondering if we made the right choices, if our seeking to help others caused our predicament (and often it did - but we worry about our own integrity). We have been very responsible in our lives - in fact, often were more devout than we knew, and were harmed (possibly in ways we would not have been otherwise) because we assumed the good will of some very dangerous people we served.
I do not think pain should be written off as self-pity, and think it often is beyond dangerous to assume everything is our fault. Sometimes, we cannot forgive ourselves when, if we took a closer look, we would admit that many things were not our fault, and that, when people did dreadful, sometimes unspeakable, things to us in the course of our ministries, we were wrong to 'take the blame.'
This example may not be the best, but I include it because it is harmless. The practise in our convent was to always answer a sincere apology with "and I am sorry I provoked you." It did not matter if an argument was unprovoked, or if the other had been looking for an opening for the row for months - this was seen as an act of charity and also of humility (because it generally does take two to have such a problem.) Similarly, if we needed to tell a superior about a difficult incident which involved another Sister, we mentioned only our own fault - not that of the other - when she had her turn with the superior, she'd accuse herself. What many of us did not realise is that, while such actions can be very useful in a climate where everyone is seeking union with God and love of neighbour (however poorly), and where such actions are understood, they can create problems elsewhere. (Of course, superiors can trade on being 'always right,' but that is another topic.) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
In ministerial work, at times when I was (often unknowingly) manipulated by the criminal element, I fell into the humble apology mode I'd been taught. I never could have seen that, in their eyes, this was only further proof of my weakness and capability for manipulation. And my actions were quite sincere - I wondered if I had failed in charity, or treated someone unjustly, etc. We so feared 'judging' that we were incapable of making factual judgements on which our safety could depend. We always blamed ourselves.
Love is in the will - it often has little to do with feelings - and we often are turning our wills towards honouring and serving God even when we feel the most anxious and bitter, though we do not recognise this at the time. But we need to remember that humility is truth, not abasement. Just recently, there was someone (not a criminal!) who treated me in a very rude, embarrassing, and inconsiderate fashion. I found myself being apologetic and all but begging forgiveness, wondering how he could not see his part in this... but that was convent training again, since I was showing respect for his priesthood.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I will read all of this, but WOW! What a brilliant thread, self-righteous, naive, dim, clinically correct, insensitive prats like Jesuitical Lad and me and all!!
Of cause, in His omnipathy He AGREES! Feels it ALL. GROANS the groans of us His thoughts.
It WILL be ALL, all right in the end, forever. In the resurrection. See you there.
Who said that, wossername of Norwich, Dame Julian. Loony as she was, she was right. Absolutely right. Free will and grace WILL be experienced by all including us seeing it thru a glass darkly.
Every eye dried.
I doubt it too of course! Although I CANNOT disbelieve the incarnation. Thank God!
And I don't pray any more. Well once in a blue moon. And then I TELL Him! Half the time.
Will He find faith when He comes?
We've got to pray down New Jerusalem, annoy the unrighteous judge to justice!
This makes me manically cheerful, perhaps it's Him!
Perhaps He HAS answered, is answering.
Must have a fag or I'll start praying!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Martin,
No, I'm not going to lecture here on Julian of Norwich... but I do have one question.
Don't you ever have a fag during your prayers? Good heavens, I do!
NB Except for one of our friends on this thread who was agnostic, who denied the Incarnation or resurrection? I remember, in Morris West's book "The Devil's Advocate," the dying Blaise Meredith expresses pain similar to that on this thread - and asks God why He is so remote, puzzling that, when Thomas expressed doubt about Jesus' resurrection, he was invited to place his hands in the Master's wounds. (Another brilliant line from that book is one where Blaise has a doctor comment that his faith must be a great strength. When Blaise speaks of his uncertainty, the doctor says he is surprised - many other priests speak of death quite differently. Blaise responds that most of them have not yet had to face the reality.)
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Firstly I was taught early in AA to assume I was always wrong. In short for years the best thing I thought I could and should be doing was getting pissed and looking after number one. Therefore all my thoughts and feeling were fear and ego centered and hence ultimately destructive. So when sober or drunk I railed against God it was in fact me feeling sorry for myself and the pig awful situation I had got myself in to and from which I had to be willing (with God?s grace) to be extracted.
Pyx_e, that is appropriate when a person's sufferings are the result of their own behavior. However, sometimes Things.Just.Happen. The two worst events of my life both just happened. Neither I nor anyone else deliberately made them happen or foresaw them.
This means that nothing can be done to prevent such things in the future.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Erin wrote:
" also have to say that in light of the background of one of the posts on this thread, the advice to "realize the problem lies with you" is not only the most cold-hearted, erroneous, steaming pile of corn-infested pigshit I've ever heard, but it is INCREDIBLY DAMAGING AS WELL. I'm just stunned."
The context to my statement about the problem being with you, is when we are doing things like believing God is a liar, as expressed in the OP. I can confidently say that if someone believes that God is a liar, the problem does lie with them. Thing is, I'm not charging such a person with blasphemy, as JL did, in fact, I'm thinking of the psychological and spiritual effects that believeing God is a liar (even partially) has on a person. If I believed God was a liar, then the whole basis of my faith/trust and hope is smashed to pieces. That God cannot lie, is a foundational truth. Without it, everything topples. It could even lead to suicide, or killing people, in a worse-case scenario.
I'm not concerned about defending God's honour, because I firmly believe He's rather have us rant at Him sometimes, than ignore Him.
If we believe false things about God, then it affects us badly. A person needs to be challenged, not condemned, to re-think what they are believing. Not forced, just encouraged to reconsider. It's no use leaving someone in a pit, they may need some guidance on how to get out of it.
Any Christian who believes God is a liar, is already in a pit. They need to understand it, so they can find ways to get out. In my opinion, confirming someone's belief that God is a liar, is the cruellest thing to do. Not only does it not help them get out of the pit, it gives them justification to start digging deeper.
The exercises I posted earlier, have been misundertood by many, and that is my fault, because I should have been clearer.
I think of 2 types of depression.
1. The normal kind which is a state of mind and emotions.
2. Clinical depression. This is an illness, which shuts down one's functioning. It can get so bad, one cannot do anything.
I believe Clinical Depression does not start straight away, but is preceded by the normal kind of depression, which is a state of mind and emotions. It then gets worse, and becomes clinical.
From my research, the best type of treatment for clinical depression, is medication and psychotherapy. Now this is where I go back to my statement about not blaming others or one's circumstances, but also to blame oneself. I worded that poorly, I apologise. When I talk to myself about blaming myself, it's not a negative thing, it's neutral. However, it's an emotional word, that's best not used. I'm talking about assessing a situation, appreciating that someone else or something else is responsible, but also to recognise that we are responsible for our own actions, and also how we respond. This is the key that unlocks a person from falling into the same trap, time after time.
Rather than depression, let's use anger as an example. When I did an Anger Management course, there was a guy who used to beat up other guys, whenever they ribbed him (took the piss, in Northern talk) Now, growing up in the Northwest, and living as a male at the time, I can tell you that guys taking the piss out of their mates was commonplace. They didn't get into fights over it, but this guy did.
Thing is, he wasn't a nasty brute. In many ways, he was a really great guy. When he was told that he was responsible for his actions though, he would reply 'it was his fault!'. 'I can't help it!' Now, if you've experienced yourself getting really angry, it feels that way doesn't it? The problem is, unless you accept responsibility for the way you deal with your anger, you'll always do the same thing time after time, when provoked. This guy could end up in prison. When he finally accepted that his response to a provocation, was his responsibilty, and that there were ways to change his response, he was set free to change his behaviour.
If I remember rightly, he changed his beliefs. Instead of believing that guys shouldn't take the piss out of him, and that a guy did that deserved a good beating, he chose to accept that it was part of a guys culture. He decided to respond with 'Fuck off you daft bastard.' He wasn't a quick-witted guy who could come up with a witty retort, so he played 'Broken Record.' Other choices would include walking away and going to another pub.
Now, supposing you've just recovered from clinical depression, you've been to the Doctor and asked for the mediaction to be changed a few times, now you're on one that's working for you. Be aware, that any anti-depressant only works with a certain percentage of people. For others, it can have the opposite effect. Don't stick with a medication that isn't working. Do some research on the Net, check out what has worked for others. Join a support group, phone Social Services and see what they have to offer too.
Back to my point. You've got your feelings back, and things are getting better. Trouble is, suppose a trigger or provocation happens to you? You could well end up feeling bad again. Like the guy who was provoked to anger, you're being provoked to depression, because you have a disposition for it.
Here's the bottom line: If Clinical Depression and Bipolar (which I have) are just illnesses, why is Psychotherapy recommended as part of the treatment? The reason is, that there are contributions we make to our own depression (normal state) that are to do with our thinking, and our beliefs. Psychotherapy can help a client realise what thoughts and beliefs result in depression, and helps formulate new beliefs and thought processes, which help the client deal with the trigger, or provocation much better, so they don't end up depressed. It's not a case of curing the illness, but of managing it better.
A person who wants to change their angry behaviour, cannot do this while angry, neither can a clinically depressed person. You need to be stabilised first.
While in a stable state, then you can ask yourself 'what has to happen to me for me to get depressed?' 'How does another person have to treat me in order for me to get depressed?' etc.
One of my triggers, is overwhelm. If I'm faced with a big problem, or complex task I haven't done before, I can get overwhelmed, frustrated, then depressed. I give up. This can then lead to clinical depression, because I go further downhill by telling myself I'm a failure.
Once you've identifies the trigger, you can then work at changing your beliefs, and your approach, so that the trigger will not get you down again. First you have to assess your beliefs and your approach, then decide to change. You don't want the pain again, do you?
So with me regarding overwhelm. I realised that I had a tendency to expect too much of myself too soon. My self-talk said 'I'm never going to be able to do this!'
Now, I say to myself. 'I didn't learnt to drive the first time I got in the driver's seat, but I can now. All I have to do is improve myself a day at a time, and eventually I will have learned it.'
Or, with a personal problem, in fact 2 days ago I got a belated birthday card, which presents me with a huge problem that I've been putting off. There's no doubt I would be spiralling into depression right now, if I hadn't learned this new stuff I'm sharing. I don't have a solution right now, but I'm telling myself, 'There is a solution to this problem, and I can find it, though it may take some time, how can I deal with it?' Thing is, if you say this to yourself, your brain will worlk to find a solution. Guess what happens if you say to yourself, 'This is impossible for me to work out!' Your brain and subconcious goes to work in providing reasons to 'prove' it is impossible. Your brain backs you up, either to find solutions, or to justify that things are impossible.
Another useful concept I've learned recently is that of learning something or problem solving by role-modelling. First, believe this. Whatever situation you are in, others have experienced the same thing. Furthermore, there are others who have learned to overcome, or deal with by adapting, whatever problem you've got.
One thing that frustrates me, is computer problems. We had one a few days ago, we couldn't restore a backup file. This time, instead of getting frustrated, I decided to role-model. I thought, 'there must be other people who've had this problem.' I typed in "qic file" into google, found lots of hits, and on the 4th page I visited I found the solution to the problem.
Suppose I had a serious accident, and I ended up only being able to use my neck and head. I would check out what Joni has written, Christopher Reeve too. I would ask what attitudes andbeliefs they hold to that helps them get on with life, despite an enormous disablity. Role-modelling can save a lot of heartache. You can work things out for yourself, and that may take years. If you decide to look for a role model, you could find ideas, beliefs and attitudes, that make your life better, much quicker.
To re-iterate: I am not saying that people who are suffering deserve it. I am not blaming people for their suffering. I do firmly believe in the promise of the Bible that 'all things (including bad things) work for good for those who love God.'
You may not believe it now, but try to. If you can just move from total disbelief in this promise, to the hope that this verse will work out true, it may encourage you.
Golden Key: You said you understood I was trying to help, and I thank you for that. You also stated that you'd tried many things and were being realistic. You gave me the impression that you've now stopped trying. If that is so, let me ask this: which is more encouraging, and likely to produce a better result?
1. I've tried lots of things and none of them have worked.
2. I've tried lots of things and none of them have worked, but realistically speaking, I haven't tried everything, there could be a solution just round the corner, for all I know.
The concepts I've been sharing are from NLP, that is Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It's about identifying and changing one's conditioning, not positive thinking. The best teacher of it, plus some other useful stuff, is Anthony Robbins. Using his methods, I've gone from someone who kept trying and trying to exercise, but failing, to someone who exercises every day, apart from the odd exception, and enjoys it. If anyone is interested, contact me privately for more information.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
God's not a Liar. Right. I am. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I am the one telling the truth! He is the one who is lying. I loved that little analogy that gravity can’t get rid of light. Well it can: it’s called a Black Hole. Gravity sucks the light in and it can’t get out. What does He have to say to that?
Why is so hard to see that everything is His fault? Doesn’t he say that He is the Creator? Doesn’t He say that He knows all, He has a perfect plan, He can be trusted, He can be relied upon? Trusted to what? Give you a load of crap to deal with in your life, that’s what! Relied upon to what? To test you to see if you’ll come forth as gold. Spare me.
He’s holding all the cards, making all the rules, and he blames me for everything that goes wrong. You know the truth: I’m as helpless as you are. My big crime was being the first one in the Universe to blow the whistle on him. I was the first one to spit out the words: He just couldn’t stand to make anyone equal to Him.
I’m not going to blow a lot of sunshine up your ass. The reason you’re not a movie star is the He didn’t make you good looking enough. The reason you’re not a Nobel Peace prizewinner is that he didn’t make you smart enough. The reason why you are suffering from unemployment and poverty is that he let other people be the sons and daughters of American industrialists and British nobility. He decided that for your own good you had to be born a plain, bright-but-not-brilliant, peasant. For what? So that you could end your suffering by taking up a cross and…suffering!
And people call me the Father of Lies?
Of course the Truth makes you mad. The problem is that he never shows up so that you can scream at him to His face. You end up believing that He must have some good reason for all this suffering and you are too stupid to see it. You then proceed to destroy yourself with drink or whatever is convenient.
Save yourself, the best way you know how. He’s not doing you any favors.
I hate it when he does that.
Let’s get the Physics analogy out of the way first. What I’m talking about is more like the electric and magnetic components of light: one gives rise to another, and they oscillate at 90 degrees to one another. You put me and a conscious being together and Evil is generated in a perpendicular plane. You can ride the ups and downs of the Good plane or the side to side of the Evil plane. Side to side is a lot easier than up and down. Something like that.
The sad part is that it is easier to have a personal relationship with Mr. Liar than it is with me. He’s right about one thing: he’s a lot more like you than I am. But that doesn’t mean he understands you better. Nor does it mean that he’s telling the Truth.
Don’t take his advice on anger. That’s one thing I’m going to beg of you. If you’re mad, you’ve got to find out why and you’ve got to get rid of it. Fully understanding the cause comes first, forgiveness in every direction comes second, release from guilt and shame comes third, resolve not repeat the error comes fourth, and finally cheerful acceptance of the likelihood that you will in fact fail some time in the future comes last.
Until I make you perfect. And I will, I promise. You will not be a “lesser” Being forever.
And you’re not too shabby just the way you are. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Christina Marie said:
Golden Key: You said you understood I was trying to help, and I thank you for that. You also stated that you'd tried many things and were being realistic. You gave me the impression that you've now stopped trying. If that is so, let me ask this: which is more encouraging, and likely to produce a better result?
1. I've tried lots of things and none of them have worked.
2. I've tried lots of things and none of them have worked, but realistically speaking, I haven't tried everything, there could be a solution just round the corner, for all I know.
Christina,
I did us both a favor and composed this offline, rather than immediately responding.
Actually, what I said was:
But many of us have been trying all kinds of things for years, and they just haven't been enough. The things that did work have worn very thin, or broken altogether.
Sometimes, accepting reality and trying to feel happy just aren't enough.
No, I have not stopped trying. People who know me know that, and marvel that I haven’t. And I never said that nothing ever helped. I am constantly looking for ways to help myself. I’m very motivated to do what I can to change myself, change situations, etc. I’ve hung onto God, read the Bible (and yes, believed it), done tremendous amounts of other spiritual reading. I’ve knocked on many, many spiritual doors, Christian and otherwise. I’ve read self-help books. I’ve gone to workshops, retreats, and conferences. And many other things.
But there sometimes comes a point—which you evidently haven’t experienced—where you can’t change situations yourself, and all these ways of coping/growing/improving aren’t enough. Where you ask human beings for help, and don’t get it. Where you’re not sure of God’s existence or nature. Not just having the blues and feeling a bit sorry for yourself—but really, seriously, deeply questioning what God is like, and finding that the Official Truths just don’t ring true, or even make sense.
I think that’s one of the fundamental differences here: you’re working from a view that God’s love is a fundamental truth, always to be relied on, and any problems are on our end. We’re coming from a point where we’re so wounded that we’re not sure of that—and we’re asking God what’s up.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
JimT,
you bear a striking resemblance to George Burns! (of the "Oh God!" movies)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Hi Golden Key,
Thank you. I wrote what I did because I was concerned that you may have given up hope totally, I wasn't judging you, I just wanted to be sure and offer something that may help a person who had given hope. I'm sorry if I've offended you, I didn't mean to.
I have been there, when I came out of the Psych ward after 3 months, I couldn't understand why God would allow a Christian to suffer psychosis. I could understand God allowing physical things, but to allow one of his children to lose their mind, was beyond me at that time.
That was in 98.
I have an answer now, but I can't share it publically on a thread. I would by PM.
From April to Oct, I was plagued with suicidal thoughts every day, til one day I got myself admitted to the ward again, and managed to sort things out.
Between July 98 and Feb 17 (my birthday) I lost 3 friends to suicide. When I was 15, I believed there was no meaning to life, and I tokk over 60 tablets to kill myself. It wasn't a cry for help, I meant it. Fortunately, an hour or so later, I woke up vomiting.
So, I appreciate what you're saying about the 'seeming' hopelessness, and I agree with you. Thing is, I don't believe that some of the others are expressing a 'seeming' hopelessness, but a real one. I hope I'm wrong. One thing I know, I think anyone in a vulnerable state, could read some of the posts about real hopelessness, and decide to kill themselves.
It could have already happened. It's not just the posters who read these posts, but lurkers too.
One thing that I don't think has been mentioned, is Satan and the demonic. Paul, the Apostle wrote about 'the god of this world' and we wage war against spiritual enemies. If we leave this out of our thinking, we are more likely to blame things on God, that the Devil may actually be responsible for. 'Resist the devil and he will flee from you.' If one doesn't believe in the Devil, it's pretty hard to resist him. If the Devil is real, and is responsible for lots of evil in our world, he must be laughing his socks off when Christians blame God, for things he and his cohorts are doing.
The subject of people suffering in Africa has been brought up in response to my posts. Now, my posts have been addressed to people who have Internet access, and are able to communicate on the thread, and lurkers.
People often say that they don't believe in God, because either He doesn't exist, or if He does exist, He's a bad one. This is the position of my family.
I believe that on the Day of Judgement, God will show that the Earth has abundant resources to feed everyone. The thing is, human selfishness means we don't share. That's one reason. The other reason is war. Starvation is caused by wars in a lot of cases. Now, how is this God's fault?
Also, I firmly believe that those who've suffered terribly, will reap an eternal reward. As Martin stated, it will make sense in the end.
Furthermore, those who have lived in luxury, and not done anything about the suffering, will spend an eternity in a much lesser position than those who have suffered, because of their selfishness.
I do not believe Hell is everlasting, but there will be degrees of reward, as well as punishment, and those who live their lives without caring, will spend eternity with a much lesser reward, in fact no reward at all. They will small in the Kingdom of Heaven, for eternity.
Best wishes to Golden Key,
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
IME, I think there is far more danger of ascribing things to Satan and demons when it's just Shit Wot Happens. It's a natural corollary of the "God found me a parking space" theology - "Satan caused my offside rear to puncture".
You know, I only turned the corner in this whole depression thing after an Iona healing service at Greenbelt. What I felt God saying to me then was that it was as shit as I thought it was, that if God were in the same position He'd be as pissed off as I was. No "looking on the bright side", no "looking to the future" or any of that crap. Just acceptance that things were shit, and I was right to be extremely pissed off, even pissed off that God had apparently done absolutely fuck all about my situation.
My response to the "it's not that bad" crowd was, and is, "Yes it fecking is or I wouldn't be so depressed over it, would I?". And my response to the "Think happy thoughts" crowd - and, sorry ChristianaMarie, that's what your exercise boils down to - is "yeah, right. As if. And what's the best it can do? Twenty seconds of escapism? I can get several hours escapism down the Sheaf View".
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
One thing I know, I think anyone in a vulnerable state, could read some of the posts about real hopelessness, and decide to kill themselves.
It could have already happened. It's not just the posters who read these posts, but lurkers too.
Write out 100 times:
I will not post when I am depressed in case I upset anyone
I will not post when I am angry in case I upset anyone
I will not post when I am upset in case I upset anyone
I will not permit myself to think any negative thoughts ever.
I will always be happy and smiling and sunny.
I really don't know quite what to say, but I don't feel that anyone on this thread should be held responsible for the actions of people who read them, and I don't believe that anyone reading these postings will have been tipped over the edge. What kind of emotional blackmail is that? If we are not allowed to confront or express our own negative emotions, you are denying an integral and valid part of human experience. Sometimes you have got to work through these things, get further into them before you come out the other side. People are different. For myself if I constantly dismiss negative thoughts, I find that I never really look at them properly. That is not to say that I indulge them but there are times when I have to stop and deal with them, not sweep them under the happy-thoughts carpet.
This thread isn't about depression, anyway. We've already got a thread for depression. Go and post your helpful advice on that. This thread is about loss of religious faith. Both this thread and the depression thread have been helpful to me personally - I can't speak for others - simply because so many of us have shared negative experiences. It hasn't got me down or made me feel worse or sent me over the edge. If anything, it's been reassuring. And I'm rather glad Nunc started it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Genie
Shipmate
# 3282
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Posted
If there are any people here who might be contemplating harming themselves, then there are appropriate places to seek help.
uk.people .support.depression and alt.support.depres sion are good places to find people willing to lend a sympathetic ear anonymously if you're not up to talking to the samaritans or to your own doctor.
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Alleluia, Christ is risen!
Posts: 762 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Genie:
If there are any people here who might be contemplating harming themselves, then there are appropriate places to seek help.
I'm becoming really confused here. Nunc's post, and (as far as I can see) all which followed (except Christina Marie's, which had to do with bipolar disorder) had to do with facing crises of faith. I cannot see one word that has to do with anything about harming oneself.
As just one example, Ariel was speaking of how one may embrace a particular way of life with the conviction that this is how one best may serve God, then, later, wondering if this had been the outcome, and wishing one could see. I found this very moving and understandable - what has it to do with depression or wishing to do anyone harm?
Not to mention that all of the great theologians have pondered why there is evil in the world and so forth.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Thanks RooK - an excuse to eat chocolate and I'm in there!
(that thought sounds too heavenly for hell........)
One of the worst endings to a hymn I have ever come across is:
If ourlove were but more simple
We should take him at his word
And our lives would be all sunshine
In the sweetness of our Lord
Personally I prefer the psalms - I think Nunc's and Newman's Own's and Arietty's posts above sound like psalms - and they are so much more true of real human experience than sugary sweet piety.
Too many churches have gone for the 'happy all the time' route and have cut out a whole chunk of expressing human experience. Sometimes to me the Iona services dwell too much on this and I find them depressing, but in small doses maybe that is most needed to convey how we really feel at times.
[Tangent]
Talk about coincidence, Chorister. I heard a bishop rubbish that self same verse yesterday. Took all my self control not to stand up and cheer him!
[End of tangent]
I'm not going to attempt to make any reasoned contribution to this discussion. But a hearty thanks to you folk, especially Nunc and Newman for being brave enough to rant in a way which I've never dared to do. (One day...)
If you'd launched this thread a month earlier, I may even have joined in. Only contrary creature that I am, I'm going through one of my rare sunny periods at the moment.
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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Genie
Shipmate
# 3282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
quote:
Originally posted by Genie:
If there are any people here who might be contemplating harming themselves, then there are appropriate places to seek help.
I'm becoming really confused here. Nunc's post, and (as far as I can see) all which followed (except Christina Marie's, which had to do with bipolar disorder) had to do with facing crises of faith. I cannot see one word that has to do with anything about harming oneself.
As just one example, Ariel was speaking of how one may embrace a particular way of life with the conviction that this is how one best may serve God, then, later, wondering if this had been the outcome, and wishing one could see. I found this very moving and understandable - what has it to do with depression or wishing to do anyone harm?
Not to mention that all of the great theologians have pondered why there is evil in the world and so forth.
My point (in so far as I had one) was that if people are so vulnerable that they would be prompted to commit suicide (as Christina-Marie suggested they might) by this thread, then there are any number of appropriate places for those people to seek help, but that this thread isn't one of them.
I haven't been a Christian long enough to have either reached a period of dryness, or to be able to recognise it if I do, but I deeply admire those who have a strong faith in God's love that allows them to express their fears and frustrations, and give God all of themselves - including the negative parts too. When I read some of the posts here, I am filled with awe that people remain faithful despite their feelings of abandonment, and grateful that I have not been forced to undergo that same trial.
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Alleluia, Christ is risen!
Posts: 762 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
When did this stop being a thread for arguing with God and become one for arguing among ourselves?
Yes, I know this is hell, and I also understand that words utter (written) in public can affect others, but when we say we are angry at God but turn our anger towards each other, I'm wondering what the benefit is.
Back to the original topic: I once asked God for a divorce. I was desperate and in some pretty severe pain--and so sure that God was showering affections on others, orgetting about me. One night I said, "That's it. Get your stuff and be out by morning."
The next day, the house was strangely quiet. But I felt good. I mean goooooood . I stood up for myself and wasn't going to take it anymore.
However, after a few days, while I was cleaning the dining room, I had a profound sense that God was in the corner of the room. I remember thinking, "You didn't leave!" (with a real sense of relief).
God and I are back together now, and we still have some moments of being totally out of sync with each other (and some arguments), but I think we're going to make it.
(btw, as an adult I always maintained that God does not have a gender, but at the time of my crisis, I felt betrayed in the way one does when a spouse grows indifferent, thus the divorce "decree.").
It's my prayer that everyone on this thread will experience God's grace in some way today/
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by me:
and so sure that God was showering affections on others, orgetting about me.
I'm not sure what the word "orgetting" means, sabine. Did you mean " for getting?
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
One thing I know, I think anyone in a vulnerable state, could read some of the posts about real hopelessness, and decide to kill themselves.
It could have already happened. It's not just the posters who read these posts, but lurkers too.
Nothing like blaming the victim.
This isn't about suicidal ideations, it's about a crisis of faith. They're not the same things, and I think it's appalling to say that people can't even voice their real frustrations with God without being blamed for some hypothetical suicide attempt.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
coming to this a bit late, but:
pyx_e ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) , from your sister-in-the-12-steps.
in alanon, too, we generally come in refusing to to accept responsibility for our problems. we have someone else to blame besides god, though... the alcoholic. its all THEIR fault! everything is! if that stupid son-of-a-bitch would just stop drinking, then everything would just be PERFECT! cause theres nothing wrong with me at all, oh no.
and ya' know what? sometimes the son of a bitch does stop drinking, and its still not all perfect. and you know why? cause there ARE things wrong with me, and i have to deal with that. i have to take the responsibility for the mess i've made of my own life.
and of course, some times bad things "just happen". but we have a saying (i suspect aa has the same) "pain is obligatory. suffering is optional". the bad things are going to happen. all you can change is the way you react to them. you can wallow in your pain... we call it "sitting on the pity-pot", or you ca work on it. working on it takes time, btw, this isn't like a switch you can flip on and off, but you can work on it.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I'm becoming really confused here. Nunc's post, and (as far as I can see) all which followed (except Christina Marie's, which had to do with bipolar disorder) had to do with facing crises of faith. I cannot see one word that has to do with anything about harming oneself.
Actually, they can go together. A deep crisis of faith can push you towards self-destruction, of one kind or another, because if your faith is the ground of your life and it falls apart...
And depression can also lead to a faith crisis.
Have been in both situations.
*But* I think it's ok to talk about it.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Sabine, giving the experience you related, you might like the book "Travelling Mercies", by Anne LaMotte. She relates to God similarly, and in an extremely down-to-earth way. Great reading.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Here's a thought:
Someone thinks God is a liar right?
Why? Because of the evil in the world, and their personal suffering, right?
How did all the evil and suffering enter the world according to the Bible?
Eve believed God was a liar!
Quite ironic.
What's the solution? Carry on a belief that brought misery into the world, or do the opposite and trust God even when things seem so bleak?
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
If anything, we have been inclined to think we are responsible for nearly everything! We struggle with guilt (other than that for sin), wondering if we made the right choices, if our seeking to help others caused our predicament (and often it did - but we worry about our own integrity).
This is me! This is me!! This is me!!!
David
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Perhaps the person doesn't think God is a liar, but the only way they have to express how they feel is in words which sound like it.
I seem to recall someone saying, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Yet if anyone knew about God's everlasting love, it would be this Guy, wouldn't it?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Perhaps the person doesn't think God is a liar, but the only way they have to express how they feel is in words which sound like it.
I seem to recall someone saying, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Yet if anyone knew about God's everlasting love, it would be this Guy, wouldn't it?
The difference is that Jesus' words are an expression of how He felt. He doesn't insult God.
The problem I see with God you're a liar, is that it is a judgement. I'm not saying people shouldn't express their feelings, but why are they doing it publically? Surely, they want some possible answers, shared experiences etc, that they might not have thought about? As I said before, I wouldn't want to leave a person with a belief that has the potential to destroy them. Surely a public post like this thread is a cry for help too?
Also, although I tend to believe that Jesus was expressing how He felt, many believe He was forsaken as He bore our sins. He was totally alone.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Well, all I can say is that this is Hell, and venting is what it is for. So a place to vent about being angry with God is ... here.
Perhaps the whole debate side of things should become its own thread in Purgatory?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
Sabine, giving the experience you related, you might like the book "Travelling Mercies", by Anne LaMotte. She relates to God similarly, and in an extremely down-to-earth way. Great reading.
Absofreakin'-lutely!
(Anne Lamott= myhero Bird by Bird and Operating Instructions by this author also deal with similar themes.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Yes, I've read the Traveling Mercies too and am so glad golden key mentioned it.
sabine
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
The problem I see with God you're a liar, is that it is a judgement. I'm not saying people shouldn't express their feelings, but why are they doing it publically? Surely, they want some possible answers, shared experiences etc, that they might not have thought about?
If you have a problem with people expressing their feelings publicly, get off the internet. And I'll repeat, sometimes there are no answers. I can't believe you consider the drivel you've been posting to be answers anyhow.
quote:
As I said before, I wouldn't want to leave a person with a belief that has the potential to destroy them. Surely a public post like this thread is a cry for help too?
You haven't been appointed by anyone "to leave a person with a belief" of any kind. We'll all sort out our own beliefs, thanks, without the help of someone whose advice to people struggling with faith in God is to stand up straight. So just back the hell off.
[forgot something]
[ 24. February 2003, 21:27: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Well, all I can say is that this is Hell, and venting is what it is for. So a place to vent about being angry with God is ... here.
Perhaps the whole debate side of things should become its own thread in Purgatory?
Good point. Although that probably would raise the traditional bullseye response. But my thought is there is probably no religious arena in the world that would even come close to allowing such a thing, and in both "P***ed off at God" and this thread, I see some pretty interesting fruit being born that probably wouldn't have if people had not felt like thay had permission to be honestly angry. I think God is the most intensely interested lurker on these threads.
So yeah, is there A place for a Hellish prayer thread? Maybe we can call it Lamentations
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Ruth wrote:
"You haven't been appointed by anyone "to leave a person with a belief" of any kind. We'll all sort out our own beliefs, thanks, without the help of someone whose advice to people struggling with faith in God is to stand up straight. So just back the hell off."
No I won't, because her struggles will be less hard if she can accept that God cannot tell lies.
People have the rightto post what they want, and I have the respond to respond, if I want to. I will not be censored.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
No I won't, because her struggles will be less hard if she can accept that God cannot tell lies.
While I agree with the sentiment, this is absolute CRAP. People on this board can believe whatthefuckever they want to believe, and YOU WILL LET THEM.
[ 25. February 2003, 01:00: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
and of course, some times bad things "just happen". but we have a saying (i suspect aa has the same) "pain is obligatory. suffering is optional". the bad things are going to happen. all you can change is the way you react to them. you can wallow in your pain... we call it "sitting on the pity-pot", or you ca work on it. working on it takes time, btw, this isn't like a switch you can flip on and off, but you can work on it.
Of course you shouldn't wallow in your pain. I have the impression, though, that you don't know what it's like to live with the knowledge that extremely weird, extremely bad things can happen to you, and there is no way you can protect yourself. I don't see how a person can 'work on' this.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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