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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Calling God to Hell
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
[HOSTLY NOTE]
JPF SC: On many other boards, newbies are guaranteed a certain amount of slack by the benevolent board hosts. Here in Hell, however, slack is pretty much at the discrection of The Denizens.
Just in case you aren't feeling those flames, I'd say that your metaphorical "slack" is actually now a tension that produces a Hellish tone when twanged. Please feel free to keep posting in the same style, and plucking us a Hellish tune. The Denizens do so love an accompaniment when they eat those that are voluntarily objectionable.
[HOST BOWS OUT AGAIN, HAVING MIXED TOO MANY METAPHORS]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
JPF SC, may I make a suggestion?
Why not start a separate thread to discuss these theories? I do not think that anyone would question your right to hold the views you hold, or to share them and discuss them in the forum of the Ship. Many of the people posting here would read and respond accordinly, I know.
This is a fabulous suggestion. I second it. And suggest you start it in Purgatory, where things are not so hot. And thanks, Smudgie, for being nice and helpful to the newbie when so many of us are flaming ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) .
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Quote from JPF SC quote:
Alot of people have pain and that is too bad, and i do agree that there are plenty of examples of some biblical characters expressing their pain to God but there also many examples of patientience with the Lord also. and my points are that we can as best we can run the race with patience cause thats really all you can do.
One of the biblical characters who expressed his pain to God was Jesus in Gethsemane. I find that Bible passage very comforting because it means that Jesus knew mental and spiritual pain. The cross means that he knew physical pain.
God doesn't mind what we say in the short run. He minds what we say and do in the long run. Waving your fist at God is an effective way for some people to move past their dismay at the s*** that happens in life. It's actually much better than my reaction of refusing to speak to God.
One final point. Kelly is not a fraud, and Karl is genuine. I have read enough of their posts over the years to know this much about them. You show a lack of respect for Karl in misspelling his name after he has pointed out your error to you.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(He said bessie was a fraud, but thanks, moo ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
thanks, Smudgie, for being nice and helpful to the newbie when so many of us are flaming .
I am not so much as ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) to see someone fighting his/her corner like a terrier and throwing around ad hominem attacks to defend his/her view that we should accept adversity patiently and without complaint.
Not so funny if you are the one being called names though.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Kelly, I just noticed that mistake and was going to correct it, but you beat me to it. Thanks.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
My apologies, JPF SC, you did address the Scripture we pointed out--but not in the depth it deserves,IMHO.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
Look at what happened to most of the proffets
...That's what our comptroller says every month.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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JPF SC
Apprentice
# 4183
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Posted
i am very sorry for every thing that i have said, obviously i am not in the right place. I will go and find some other parts of the ship that will be more appropriate places for me to say some of the things that i have said. I really did not realize that this was predominately a place where people share the pain in there lives which i know can be very real. sorry!
Posts: 16 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
God Bless you, JPF SC. I can't remember seeing such a thorough, humble apopogy.
And for my part--sorry if I got a little hot, but I have been watching this thread for a few days and was really involved.Guess I flipped out a little.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Pax tecum, JPF.
(Teasing tag on) If you'd like a really good workout to introduce you to other areas of the Ship, begin a thread on Hebrews. I have a sense that you'll find that many Ship mates have rather a solid and extensive grasp on the scriptures.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Thank you very much, JPF SC.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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heathen mama
Shipmate
# 3767
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Posted
JFP SC - thank you for the apology. Please feel free to use Hell as you need it, and get to know the rest of the ship...there are some real gems aboard.
Kelly, I think you were completely justified in what you said, and thank you for being our floppy-eared defender. Here's a carrot just for you.
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I shaved my armpits for *this*?
Posts: 569 | From: the first state | Registered: Dec 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(crunch) It's Miller Time. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Annie P
Ship's galley maid
# 3453
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Posted
This was written over a period of 20 mins. So this is a little late, but I hope that it still contains something relevent!
first a little administration:
quote:
Originally corretcted by Sarkycow [Severe copyright violation. I found you a link. Time to pay me double money.]
[ 27. February 2003, 23:50: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
Cheques in the post dear. Knew there was something I'd done wrong! Sorry!!!!
Ok to the matter in hand.
AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH
Thank you, that makes me feel so much better.
Oh, when things were going so well, I thought people were really having chance to consider what they were feeling while we tried to listen.
Lots of people have pulled your posts apart JPF SC so I won't. I think you get the picture but just in case maybe it's a bit like this.
I hate excercise, I always have. I'm really not designed for it. However, I know it's good for me and will help me to stay fit, motivated and keep the weight off. (ahem). So to this end I try to go running once a week. Now when I say running, I really mean putting one foot in front of the other slightly faster than if I was walking. Oh, and I wear trainers as well (cause it helps and makes me look more like those running people). In short, I'm fairly bad at it. If I manage to run half a mile I would be doing well. It hurts and it's painful! Sometimes I don't manage it the whole way and I give up and walk. (Shock! Gasp! Horror!).
Now there are other people at work who run. Not only do they run but they go FELL RUNNING (Sadistic N. Yorks, English pastime, which involves lots of hilly bits) for miles. You'd say they were pretty serious about it. This is the bit I want you to listen to. When I come in after lunch looking like a beetroot in distress, someone will ask
"How did it go?"
"Err not too well, I did run all the way"
at this point, the last thing I need someone to say is "tut tut" ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) "You're not trying hard enough", or "Really? I expected you to hold on till the end, after all we should really dig deep and keep going. You know it does get easier."
Because I can't see it getting easier, it still hurts. Those replies would confirm my inadequcy and guilt about not being able to do more, and frankly would stop me from even trying.
But you know what? They don't. They say things to me like - "well, at least you went, it's a start, hey we're going out on Thursday, do you want us to take you with us." Or simply "Well done for trying."
You see? Gettit? These people on this thread do not need us who are "running" to tell them that they should try harder. They know how to run, they've been doing it for years. It's that it's not getting easier. In fact it's got so hard that something has snapped and they need to come somewhere where they can let it all out. It's called being honest.
This is not an academic discussion about suffering, it's about real people and real feelings. Which leads me to this:
quote:
inter net is not exactly the greatest place for people to communicate. no one can really hear the sympathy in another persons voice or the exasperation or the confusion.
What are you doing here? Reading I guess? What do you do when you look at the Bible or any other book full of heart renching, blood curdling amazingly descriptive narrative? Reading. Same difference. If you can't hear the sympathy, exasperation or confusion then I guess you don't understand the English language very well.
I know it's really hard to read this stuff. It's also hard to post it too, and I admire the honesty of people here. Yes this screws with your mind, but it also makes me think how I should helpfully respond to help people work out where they should go from here. Often it is just to sit and listen.
What else do I have to say? Only that I refuse to have this thread derailed by someone who while well meaning (in places) has done the very thing that people starting from the view point of God is love should be doing: Judging them.
As you have apologised (since I started to write this), get your arse into heaven where we will assault you with chocolate and fluffy bunnies and play word assoc games until you work out what's going on here. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Older now, but not necessarily wiser.
Posts: 3248 | From: stockton-on-tees | Registered: Oct 2002
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Thumbprint
Shipmate
# 3056
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Posted
JPF SC, Welcome!
I'm sorry that I was so harsh with you - rationality in the heat of passion isn't one of my virtues ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif) .
P.S.
Smudgie, you are a saint ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posts: 172 | From: In the Pool | Registered: Jul 2002
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Annie P
Ship's galley maid
# 3453
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Posted
sorry to double.
Heartfelt apology accepted - sorry if what I just said was a little harsh, but I hope it helps clarify things. Stick around and see where you can be helpful.
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Older now, but not necessarily wiser.
Posts: 3248 | From: stockton-on-tees | Registered: Oct 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(crunch) It's Miller Time.
Oh, no! Who spiked Kelly's carrot? A drunk bunny. I shudder to think.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Thanks for the apology, JPF.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And Annie, I hope I am not embarrasing you with overpraise, but your post (the "I hope you dance" one) was like,"Here, have a seat,dear.Let me get you a cold drink and a towel."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well damn. Here I was, all ready to flame the everliving shit out of a newbie, and he goes and apologizes. But at least he left me this...
quote:
you probably think that because you have been around longer that some sort of 'respect ' should be showed to your posing.
In my case, get used to festooning my path with rose petals, bub. All newbies have to.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
bessie rose bride , you are a fraud.
JPF; My willingness to STFU in the face of your newbieness has now popped after reading your sentence.
School's in, so listen up.
[RANT]
You silly, ignorant bitch. No, strike that--add "arrogant" to the list. It's one thing to be new and misstep on the Ship--ignorance is understandable--but to misstep with such willful arrogance and unwillingness to consider others' opinions is to demonstrate a callous and dismissive attitude to everyone else here.
Where do you get off labelling Bessie "a fraud" when all she did was ask why you didn't reveal any details of yourself in your profile and tell you to stop quoting the Bible because we all had one and knew what it said?
Who gave you the right to pronounce on Bessie's authenticity? From your context, it appears you're pronouncing on her authenticity as a Shipmate or as a Christian, I'm unsure which. Either way, here's where you get off: You don't have the right. You're new here, therefore you don't have the right to piss on her leg like that. Disagree with her, yes. Dislike her posts, yes. Even hate her avatar, yes. But until you've spent some time here in a give-and-take relationship, you don't know shit from Shine-ola, so please shut your yap, READ the posts here and LEARN how people successfully interact.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
Are you saying that because i am relatively new to ship of fools that what i have to say is not valid.
Spot on when it comes to judging other Shipmates. Other than that, your opinions are as valid as anyone else's, absent their experience in the issue.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
i think that that sentiment of yours should show people where you are coming from.
Whereas I think you should read the post again because you've completely misinterpreted what she said.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
you probably think that because you have been around longer that some sort of 'respect ' should be showed to your posing.
On this Ship, respect is earned, not inherited or handed out like a candy. Bessie's been on here long enough that many of us have come to know her, inasmuch as we can on this kind of a medium.
You, OTOH, have been here exactly dick, and know nothing of what you're talking about on this issue.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
About your not liking bible quotes, your bible is probably buried in some box somewhere not having been read in the last 10 years.
Remember when I called you a silly, ignorant, arrogant bitch? Now I'll add "snide," "condescending" and "judgmental," with an option for "Pharisaical." How dare you, JPF. You know nothing of Bessie and her life and her relationship with God, so who the fuck died and made you God and able to judge her?
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
I think most people dont like scripture quoted to them because the bible is so inconvienient to them, they cant make what they read square with what they want to think or say so they chuck the bible.
No, "most people" (nice of you to except yourself from them, of course) don't like the Bible quoted to them because the people doing the quoting all too often have your attitude of using Scripture like a damned Band-Aid ("plaster," for you UK folk), sticking it on a pain or a suffering and blithely assuming that somehow doing so will magically solve the sufferer's problems.
Please allow me to give you a clue based on the fact I've spent the last 25 years as Christian who believes the Bible to be the inerrant, infallible word of God: The Bible doesn't work that way. God doesn't work that way. When someone is suffering, you don't hand them a nice verse all rolled up in purple ribbon, as though it were a magic pill to cure their pain forever and ever, amen.
God is a fucking mystery, remember "My ways are not your ways, My thoughts are not your thoughts"? God does things or doesn't do things and most of the time we don't understand why. This not-understanding is part of our human condition, and a source of frustration for us.
Most of us as believers deperately want to understand why God does what He does, we want to trust Him no matter what our circumstances seem to say about Him. This is what faith is all about. Faith is our wrestle with God, we're all bloody Jacob. Working out our faith is our attempt to come to some kind of grips with God, the world, ourselves and each other. This is working out our salvation with fear and trembling.
This is why people have different interpretations of Scripture. If you haven't learned this lesson, then please allow me to be your school teacher: The same verse will have different, perhaps even contradictory, meanings to sincere believers. Here's the joke: Both of them can be right. Difference of opinion on Scripture does not automatically mean inferiority of belief or spiritual status.
RuthW (to pick a Shipmate at random) and I have enormously differing opinions about many issues, religious and secular, yet I respect her as a Ship's admin, a sister in Christ, a fellow traveller on that bumpy road to God, and, I hope she is a friend. She has earned my respect because of her consistent demonstration of sense of duty, tolerance, compassion, humor, common sense (except when it comes to politics) and willingness to let others have their own opinions without belittling those people or attacking them as unfit Christians, a lesson you would do well to see and emulate, both on the Ship and in life as a whole.
A blithe assumption that you have the answer to everyone else's problems is a wonderfully accurate indicator of just how far up your ass your head is lodged. When I again start to believe that all of my pet solutions will fit everyone else, then I know my head is just as far up my own sphincter and only God can yank it out.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
How do you call yourself a follower of Christ if you dont want to hear his word.,?
I'm a follower of Christ (you're damn well not going to tell me otherwise) and *I* don't want to hear you quoting him because you're doing so inappropriately and inaccurately. There have been times of intense personal pain when the LAST thing I wanted was some well-meaning nitwit quoting Scripture at me, because in doing so she came across as trying to either "fix" me or score points with God, rather than geniunely trying to weep with me as I wept.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
I think it is very illuminating that your position is that i should leave the bible out of this.
No more illuminating than you coming across as smugly self-righteous and superior because you claim you *do* rely solely on the Bible.
No more illuminating than your inability or unwillingness to spell Karl's name correctly despite his repeated requests you do so. Either you're amazingly unobservant or unwilling to show even the smallest of courtesies, like reading his posts to you or spelling his name correctly.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
Does is not make you pause just a little that you are now going to become the person that argues against the relevancy of the word of God. Hey, go for it!
Quit putting words in Bessie's mouth. She has NOWHERE in here argued against the relevancy of God's word, so shut the fuck up about it.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
I kind of knew when i started posting things to say here that any attempt to be true to Gods word would be met with suspicion at best and at worst with contempt.
Then you're not surprised, are you? You puerile, empty-headed git. How dare you judge us? How dare you assume that YOUR interpretation of Scripture can be the only valid one? Again, who died and made you God?
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
But, it really does not make me want to back down. Jesus and the word are one in the same so if you reject one then you reject the other.
And, of course, if we reject you, then ipso facto we reject Jesus and the Bible, correct? Wrong again, pinhead. In case this has escaped your attention, please allow me again to educate you. You, my dear, are NOT Jesus. You're NOT God. You're NOT the Holy Spirit. You know precisely dick, squat, schney, zip, nada, shit, fuck all. You are an empty head and a full mouth, blatting about that which you do not know but presume you do.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
THe thing that i regret is that by defending the word of God some people might think that i dont care about the people in this world who might be experiencing pain or grief.
No, No, No! You will NOT do this! You will not wrap yourself in the Bible, judge us all as unfit believers who don't care about God's word, and then claim yourself a pinnacle of compassion and authentic Christian spirituality. Get the fuck off that train because it ain't going anywhere! You goddamn well will NOT slap us with one hand and hold out the other as a gesture of kindness!
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
My heart goes out to them.
I don't believe you. To quote you back to you, how can you call yourself compassionate when you judge Bessie as you've done? It's much easier to love people as a class rather than as messy, stinky, contrary, fucked up individuals. Yes, you can feel compassion for "hurting people," but where is your compassion for Bessie? I see none.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
I know it is very hard to deal with what this world throws at us, but i dont think cursing God is the answer but to have patience and wait for his blessing.
Somehow, I believe Job would have something to say to you.
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
If telling someone something that you believe will help them is bad and that they should refocus on Christ is not what you want to hear then i'm sorry.
My problem with you is not so much you telling us what will help; my problem is you've done so in a manner that is pompous, arrogant, dishonest, insensitive and cruel, designed to diminish pain and suffering while emphasizing your own spiritual stature.
Yes, I went ballistic when I read your post, and I called you a silly, ignorant bitch, among other phrases. The truth is, you are my sister in Christ and I have to respect that, but I cannot and do not respect what you've said to Bessie and about her, nor must I respect your ignorant (and inaccurate) judgments on us as incompetent Christians. I am calling you on the carpet because I have hopes you'll be able to hear what I'm saying (and what others say as well) and LEARN from it. Please listen to what we're saying and, while doing so, grasp the mindset that maybe you don't know everything, maybe what we're saying is not wrong, maybe, just maybe, God is bigger than you think.
[/RANT]
Okay, school's out, time for recess.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
My apology stands, but what'd ja think of my first flame, erin?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I mean, you're obviously the queen and all...
And very thorough.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I had only a little bitty four line post, Kelly. That big honkin' post was kenwritez's. I don't ever take that long to tell people to fuck off.
But your flame was good, if amazingly profanity-free. I try to aspire to that, but somehow my fingers have little minds of their own.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
JPF, sorry I missed your apology, I was carefully crafting your butt-kicking while here at work, so I plead distraction. Thank you for apologizing and your willingness to stick around the Ship.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Ooops, my screen keeps cutting off poster's names. Ken, You were the thorough one. Good points.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
Sorry, I've been off the boards for a few hours. Just seeing your apology, JPF SC.
I accept it and forgive. It's great if your faith allows you to wrap yourself in scripture alone and feel that all's right with your world, your God, and you. For us, that's not the case.
That's why we're on this thread. Hope to see you elsewhere on board, though.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Hear,hear. Come to "Sit Down" JPF SC, (located in Heaven)and we will give you cocoa and log fires and much chocolate.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(P.S., I don't know why, but in one of my posts I assumed you were male. Sorry for not picking up on your female status. )
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
Damn, my first real flame and she cuts me off at the ankles by apologizing before I can post it! Sheesh! I was so proud of it, too! ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I ought to take lessons from Erin in crafting succinct flames. ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Thanks JPF SC, for your apology. (Nothing like trial by fire, huh?)
kenwritez: back atcha, babe.
scuttles off before one of the hellhosts catches up with all this sweetness and light
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Wanders past waving her toasting fork
We've had pain, anger, shouting and tears galore; we've had newbieness; we've had flames; all of this is fine here. But the sweetness and light? People people, have you gone mad?
Get back on topic. Congratulate/adulterate ( )one another privately or in All Saints.
Viki, hellhost
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
Selfishly I keep coming back to this thread (well, most threads actually) to see if anyone has responded to what I have written. I got pointlessly cross when I thought that JPF SC was sabotaging what I had been finding gently encouraging. Then I got paranoid that as I'm quite a newbie myself maybe people are ignoring me in the way that I tried to ignore JPF SC. I wondered if I should put more in my profile, but I hastily removed some of what was first there out of fear of being identified by friends. I regretted ever suggesting that I didn't need help in another thread, but also puzzled over the thought that hell isn't the place to seek sympathy so what do I expect.
I thought about complaining angrily at people rather than whinging (though I'm a great whinger I know). Then I thought I should take my own advice and realise that I'm really angry at God.
So what the f*** do I do about it? Oh and if I confess that I am lightyears away from keeping the 'Love the Lord your God' commandment, should I just accept my condemned state and give up?
One final question, did whoever agreed to let me be "OutOfTherapy" make a serious error of judgement?
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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JPF SC
Apprentice
# 4183
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Posted
My apology still stands. I dont agree with alot of what some people have said though. i do have this question, please answer back with a real answer, if this site is still not a place for discussion, then i would appreciate it if instaed of flaming me an answer that you would just e mail me back that this is still not a site for these types of discusions. QUESTION; Other than the word of God, how are you discerning God's will for you and what might be an appropriate response to what we encounter in this world?
Posts: 16 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(((OOT)))I'm sorry .
I was writing another post (that I accidentally deleted before the Apology), on which I described this thread as people who had cried themselves out and were drifting off to sleep, when in comes someone banging on a tamborine.
Shit, shit, shit. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
Thanks Kelly. JPF SC, why don't you cut and paste your question into a new thread in Purgatory? When people have suggested this thread is not a good place it doesn't mean this whole ship-of-fools site hasn't got plenty of space for someone who can apologise and wants to have a debate. Just click Community Discussion, Purgatory, New Topic.
OOT
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JPF SC:
My apology still stands. I dont agree with alot of what some people have said though. i do have this question, please answer back with a real answer, if this site is still not a place for discussion, then i would appreciate it if instaed of flaming me an answer that you would just e mail me back that this is still not a site for these types of discusions.
This is a site for that type of discussion, but Hell ain't the place for it. Try Purgatory (as has been suggested) for in-depth discussion about this fluid faith of ours. In Hell, as described very clearly in the Guidlines, the floor is open for contentious and angry rants, amongst other things not fluffy enough for Heaven or the other boards. The point many people were making, aside from completely dissagreeing with much of what you said, was that you said it a) in the wrong place and b) without any compassion or attempts at understanding the situations or people presented here. However I accept your apology, and will certainly watch out for your name around the Ship
quote:
QUESTION; Other than the word of God, how are you discerning God's will for you and what might be an appropriate response to what we encounter in this world?
This is certainly worthy of discussion, but I strongly suggest you take it to Puragtory. This will firstly enable people who like the debates more to join in, and also (to some degree) stop the continued flaming that you will almost certainly receive if you try to continue down that train of thought on this thread. I am in no way trying to stifle debate, I'm just saying that it's better for all of us if it's started in the right place.
the ranters. You guys rock!
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Seeing as RooK isn't here, but various posters on this thread are:
Pretends to be RooK, and makes a hostly note
Everyone - JPF SC has apologised, and apologised handsomely. Desist with the flames.
JPF SC, the Ship has many boards, to accomodate all types of stuff, from creativity to discussion to argument to hugs. Accordingly, please visit Purgatory, where you can start a new thread to discuss your ideas and questions. People up there really enjoy discussing and arguing about theology, the Bible, what God thinks etc etc etc. This thread is for expressions of pain and anger, and dealing with those expressions, not for learned discussion of the ins and outs of, well, whatever.
Remembers to end the hostly note
Viki, hellhost
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Annie P
Ship's galley maid
# 3453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(((OOT)))I'm sorry .
I was writing another post (that I accidentally deleted before the Apology), on which I described this thread as people who had cried themselves out and were drifting off to sleep, when in comes someone banging on a tamborine.
I think that about sums it up. It was like having children drift off to sleep listening to bed time stories when some one comes through and bangs the door, in a hurry, and possibly by accident.
As for your question JFP I'll go and see if I can hunt out a thread for you and get back to you.
Ok back to therepy....
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Older now, but not necessarily wiser.
Posts: 3248 | From: stockton-on-tees | Registered: Oct 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(after noticing cross-post)
I am relying on about 27 years of devout Christian study and education. Which includes my knowledge of Scripture, but also includes anything God might put in front of me for education. I rely on prayer and God's help for sorting it out.
But I would not dare (1.) silence someone who came to me looking for a listening ear or (2.) lie about my own experience to appear more godly. I believe that if I did so, God would have every right ot pimp-slap me upside the head mutliple times in the afterlife.
Out of therapy Just said "I was beginning to feel comforted, but now should I resign myself to being distant from God?" again." AAAUUUGGHH!!! Do you know how many days of posts went into that tiny smidge of comfort she was feeling? I am so frustrated I want to cry. I really thought this was a healing experience.(BTW, OOT, for my part, I was reading everything you said with deep thought; just trying to compress a lot of ideas into each post.)
I'm sorry, I cannot distance myself from this enough to continue properly. This thread has given me a trememdous feeling of solidarity and support. I am acting overpossesive and overprotective. I shall go to my therapy session and sob now, thank you.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Sorry, Vicki. Cross-post.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Clay_Pigeon
Mathematics
# 2516
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Posted
It took me days to find the words for this thread....and I just want to say that it is stuff like this thread that makes me glad that I'm a member (at least part-time) of this community.
One of the current struggles in my life is to know exactly what I can do for the people around me who are in pain. Having gone through a little bitty fire a couple of months ago, I'm lucky enough to be in a rather calm period in my life. But my heart breaks time and time again when I read the prayer requests in All Saints. I am in awe of how various people on the ship manage to press onward in the face of so much adversity (you know who you are).
And I struggle to know how to help these people.....not the kind of the help that makes me feel all warm on fuzzy but the kind of help that actually helps. I don't want to pray until *I* feel better...I want to pray until the other person gets some relief....and there are so many people to pray for just in this small community. I can't say how tempted I have been to send a few shipmates rent money or grocery money. I know its not a real solution but at least it gives someone one less thing to worry about for a few weeks. Then I read stories about people with cancer and wish I was a world famous surgeon who could swoop in and bring relief to that situation....and then I read stories about people with heart troubles and I wish I was a world famous cardiologist who could swoop in on those situations. I read about people getting mugged, and I wish I was some kind of superhero who could keep stuff like that from happening...and then I just get tired and want a nap...and the only thing I can do is pray:
Lord, what the fuck are you thinking? It is too much to ask for *everything* to be ok for just one second in the miserable history of human existence?!?!?!?!
But what can we...those who are in a calm place right now... do. I so want to help, and I find myself powerless.... and I'm pissed at God because *I* want to help and I can't. When my fiancee had severe panic attacks, I remember laying with her in bed and just wanting to reach into her heart and steady it.....by some mystical means carry some of her burden. I feel the same way as I read this thread and read the prayer requests. I want to somehow reach out and lend some the strength and hope that I have right now to those who need it, because I know that some day soon I will need the same for me. But these flesh boxes separate us and nothing will be able to bridge that distance.....nothing but God, but His absence is the whole problem in the first place.
I don't know where I'm going with this, so I'm going to shut up and stop. Hopefully I made sense, or communicated some coherent message.
-Troy
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THAT'S IT! NOW I'M PISSED!. You're so off my prayer list.
-Was Once Troy
Posts: 599 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Mar 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
OutOfTherapy, you said: quote:
The upshot being that I am virtually not speaking to God, out of some childish defiance maybe. Reading this site is about as close as I get to even vaguely Christian activity at the moment but there is something that keeps me curious, willing God to somehow come through for me and prove that he was right all along. (though I shan't admit it easily)
The only thing I would question there is "childish defiance", as I suspect you are selling yourself short. Hanging on when you feel you have no encouragement, hoping when all hope is gone, wanting God to show himself righteous when all the immediate evidence is he's a bastard - I would call that faith. And quite possibly heroism.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
They say that in any marriage (for the reference to that word in this context, please see my previous post about a rant I had with God)...they say with any marriage, if you never argue, if you never feel a bit of discouragement, you are fooling yourself.
So it is with our relationship with God (IMHO). Some days are just worse than others.
Like Troy, I'm in a pretty good place right now, but it hasn't always been that way, and I doubt that my ups and downs with The Divine are over.
Sometimes I think the more we describe how time has healed our wounds, the more it may emphasize that another's wounds are not yet healed. It's not the intention, of course, and one always hopes to be of some encouragement.
In the end, when my relationship with God hits rocky times, it gives me strengthn to know that others will put in a good word on my behalf.
With that in mind, I pray:
God, who created each one of us out of great love and who knew our names before our birth, please accept all communication--the well-spoken, the confused, even the curses and flames--as a sign of relationship , and allow your presence to be felt by all those who are currently experiencing a distance from or barrier to you.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Sabine and troy--thank you, thank you, thank you. I am going to go to sleep tonight beliving in a God who can provoke the kind of tenderheartedness you expressed. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
(I really did go to my therapist and sob. much better now. Note to self-never post before therapy.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
P.S and Wanderer--right on.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Why thany you Kelly (where's a curtsy smily when you need it?). I've not posted much here, as others have expresed my thoughts much better than I could, but I have been moved by so much of what I have read. Isn't it strange - sometimes knowing you are not alone really helps.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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LucyH
Shipmate
# 3570
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Posted
Dear Nunc and others who feel this way.is some of the problem not so much that God 's promises seem to be broken[ I have some liliesof the field issues jut for starters] as the church's know Jesus invitation and the implication that there's a voice on the end of the telephone type relationship available.I feel like Im talking to an imaginary friend at times and have said most of the OP to God at times.
Adrian Plass's auto biography helped a Lot and describes this kind of a crisis .I also find Phillip Yancey readable too.
I'm not here as an apologist for God. And I know reading the right book is not all it takes to resolve these issues...kind of I hope a little here a little here might offer some comfort.Above all I applaud you for not pretending and / or towing the christian party line.
Much compassion on this thread and [ after a major rant at God ] I have come to the conclusion that all compassion comes from Him .
Because I can say so little to help the temptation is to say nothing .I hope not being alone eases the pain a little.
Lastly rant rave cry but dont stop talking to him and your fellow christians. I once thrust my bible into the heart of the fire, I was so angry.[Took a while to believe I was forgiven for that.]Leaving your bible in a box under the bed pfff.... not that I think any of you do .
Dear Lord Please rescue us who are deafened by your apparent silence. and when we cant hear you which is most of the time , give us words ad ways to help one another. Amen
I doubt if youre supposed to pray in here but what the hell eh?
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Hanging on when you feel you have no encouragement, hoping when all hope is gone, wanting God to show himself righteous when all the immediate evidence is he's a bastard - I would call that faith. And quite possibly heroism.
I don't know, I don't even pretend to know. All I know is it feels like unrequited love and a stormy affair that goes wrong from time to time. Usually because I screw it up. And I have no idea why God would want to resume it. And sometimes it's simply too painful to want to resume it. Can't live with him, can't live without him, what is a human to do?
But you're right about knowing that others feel the same does help, make you feel less alone.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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