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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Calling God to Hell
ChrisT

One of the Good Guys™
# 62

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You don't listen do you? Just keep giving those crap 'it's for your own good' or 'it will all turn out in the end' lines. Well you're wrong. It won't turn out alright, not even OK. What will happen is that I will just have to get used to this hell and eventually will get so numbed to the pain that I will adapt to be able to live some kind of life. I can feel it happening already, and I hate it. But I know there's no point asking why.

--------------------
Firmly on dry land

Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Just one thing i find very impotrant turning out right will be fine---I can handle all kinds of dreck for that.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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{{{ChrisT}}}

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Quizmaster

Quick quipper
# 1435

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Note to Nunc et al:

I got up this morning feeling very depressed and down and wondering why God is punishing me for having an alert mind that simply wont shut down.

Then I thought - Let's venture into Hell and swear at somebody. Pyx_e would be a good candidate as he brings anger into the most light hearted threads in Heaven....

I have just read the first page of this thread so far but I will return to read more. This has been some of the best therapy ever. There are others who have the same experience. That means more than anything when you are down. I am not alone.

Surprisingly I remember saying something along the lines of that quote at the end of a Pyx_e post:

“Why don’t you leave me alone and butt out of my life for once , go on just let me screw up a little bit and learn SOMETHING the hard way, you are such a prissy, nice God, jeez………..”

Well - He did!

--------------------
The more questions I ask the more I ask fewer questions.
OR=========================================
The wise person does not know all the answers, but always asks the right questions.

Posts: 3326 | From: Exeter, Devon | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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Oh Hell, maybe I'm the one who needs an anger management class.

Here goes.

God, WTF are You thinking, letting me have free will? What, are you stoned? Are you so alien or uninvolved with our lives down here that You don't see how badly I keep fucking up?! [smacks God] Wake up! [/smacks God]. Or...am I just lucky? Did I somehow draw the "Become unnoticed by God" special Community Chest card in this cosmic game of mortal Monopoly?

What are You thinking, huh? What is your game plan? Do you HAVE a game plan? Certainly not one You let me in on! How stupid do You hafta be for trusting me with anything resembling real life? I can fuck up a cup of coffee! You KNOW this! It can't be a surprise for You of all people!

Uh oh...no you don't! Don't You EVEN tell me You love me! I won't have it, do you understand? Telling me You love me does me exactly fuck all for good! How can You love me? Look at all this shit I've caused, look at these pissed-away opportunities, but my abilities aren't stopping there, no sir! I have yet to really miss one opportunity for hurting myself, much less someone else.

Look inside my heart, God. It's full of rage right now, and shitloads and shitloads of fear with a fat, charming dollop of lust on top, dusted with a fine sprinkling of greed, served on a bed of crispy sloth, with a nice side salad of gossip, a trough of gluttony, and an ice-cold chalice of pride to wash it all down! I'm mad, I'm afraid, I'm paranoid as hell and I'm really gonna hafta pee in a few minutes.

Why do You keep telling me You love me when Your love doesn't fit what I see as love? Where the Hell did I get these standards, anyway? Why do I struggle with the shit in my life that I do? Why isn't my life easier, more like a beer commercial?

What--is that it? Am I having so much trouble because I think my life should work like that of someone on tv? Like some worthless shit-for-brains sitcom?! Or, worse yet, some pettifogging, goat-raping ADVERTISEMENT? I should always be trim and muscular, a male model with six-pack abs and a twelve inch blue steel throbber? My life is sad and incomplete without a silk suit, a fat wad of cash and plastic, a .44 magnum and a hot car, trophy sluts pushing their siliconed racks against my sinewed arms and vanquished bad guys cowering around my impeccable Cole Haan loafers?

This is all boiling down to: I think I should be the center of the universe?

Holy fucking ego, Batman! I done gone and bought into some serious shit! No fucking wonder, Sherlock! Jeez, why am I smacking God when I should be smacking me?! I'm the true idiot here, not God, although WTF He's trusting me with His love to give to others is a brick topped mystery.

So...You do love me after all. You love me despite all the shit I put You through and all the fire alarms I ring in Your house at night. You do keep on loving me when by any reasonable standards You ought to've bitch-slapped my fat, fucked-up ass into orbit around Pluto by now.

You love me? You're one sick puppy, God. Thank you.

--------------------
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081

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Kenwritez, I just can't figure out your post above. Are you calling God to hell, or are you suggesting in a roundabout way that people who do so are considering themselves the centre of the universe? I'm not doubting your sincerity but the nicely rounded off "but you love me anyway" conclusion is quite hard to take...

..when I'm in a pissed off with God mood anyway

(which is most of the time I admit!)

Maybe you could clarify a bit,

OOT

--------------------
Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home.
Martyn Joseph

Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Eanswyth

Ship's raven
# 3363

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Yeah, what OOT said. [Confused]
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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I read it as saying to me:

“I need to grow up and change my expectations of my relationship with God. To stop believing the crap this world tells we that makes me dream harmful dreams and imagining lies to be true and that health, happiness, money and sex are what it is all about. To acknowledge the gifts he gave me and use them well. To stop asking what I think I want and looking at what others need. And to acknowledge that at sometime I will have to compromise and at least let our relationship be on His terms not always mine.”

That’s how I read what it was saying to me. I am kind of confused about the got thing though.

God only knows what he was actually trying to say, what did it sound like to you? And is he right?

P

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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I apologize for the incoherence of my rant (wait; aren't rants supposed to be incoherent? [Ultra confused] ).

My rant was purely a personal one, fueled by a late night stimulus that suddenly untapped a reservoir o' rage. I wasn't talking about anyone else except God and I nor was I pointing a finger at anyone else but Him.

I indeed called God to Hell for being such a dumb sonofabitch as to give someone like me free will when I have this magnificent, full-color history of being a total screw-up, and how dare He continue to love me when I have proven myself so utterly incompetent at that very love?

Giving me free will PLUS the responsibility to love and be loved by other people and by Him is akin to giving a toddler a burning highway flare and seting him down in the middle of a petroleum distillation factory.

This is my attempt at wrestling out all of the above with lots of exhibitionist grandstanding, hyperbole, and operatic emotions.

--------------------
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
welsh dragon

Shipmate
# 3249

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Ken, I though it helped very much that your rant was in the first person. As far as I can see, you can address God in any way you like on your own account.

I think however that giving God quarter on this thread might be dangerous...and I think also that God probably doesn't mind that there is a place here for people to gripe at him...

Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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Hey WD;

I quite agree; I don't think God loses any sleep over a thread where we air our gripes against Him. I think this thread is actually a good idea, and I believe it serves a very useful purpose.

As for "giving God quarter" being dangerous, you have a good point, but any danger is as will be. If someone is unhappy over the quarter I give God, they can go fuck themselves; this is my rant, not theirs. Rants are not calm exercises of cool logic and this is Hell, not Purgatory.

This thread is an arena for an intensely personal and intensely emotional display, so it's going to be a messy place with lots of pain and rage scattered about and an absence of "oughts."

I have zero tolerance attached to a shitload of pent-up hostility waiting for any interfering busybody attempting thought control over my posts, over your posts, or over anyone else's, unless a host/admin is addressing violations of the 10C's or TOS.

I appreciate your caution and thank you for it, and if anyone has a problem or question about my rant, they're free to post it here, in another thread, or PM me and I'm willing to discuss it.

(BTW, this is not a slap at you, WD, nor anyone else; it's a clarification addressed to the world at large.)

--------------------
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Can we stop pretending God does not mind or words to that effect. Far be it from me to propose to “know” the mind of God but I do know He loves us. When people I love say hurtful stuff about me ( be it true, false or a misunderstanding) it hurts. I am not happy about it and I do mind. To pretend that being hurtful does not hurt is the sort of shit that justifies any excess. Whilst I take on board the tenor of this thread and the very real anguish that has been expressed I will not stand by and agree that “God does not mind or does not lose ant sleep.”

I am tempted to have a rant about fallen (whatever that means) human nature always destroying the things it loves, always finding someone else to blame and always taking it out on someone else and enjoying the momentary feeling of god-like power that such outbursts generate.

The absolute saddest thing about his whole thread is that it reflects so acutely our condition, into which I have fallen, jumped, been lead and happily at times danced. That, please God our relationship with Him is a real one and that is more fraught than any on our human relationships and when, for whatever reason it breaks down it hurts in away that words can not describe. To suggest that when that happens it does not wound God is to deny at least the cross and at best our whole reason for being.

P

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Can we stop pretending God does not mind or words to that effect. Far be it from me to propose to 'know' the mind of God but I do know He loves us. When people I love say hurtful stuff about me ( be it true, false or a misunderstanding) it hurts. I am not happy about it and I do mind. To pretend that being hurtful does not hurt is the sort of shit that justifies any excess.

I think there is a major difference between saying angry things to God and saying them to human beings who love us.

God already knows what's in our minds and hearts. He sees all the garbage. When we bring it out into the open, we are more likely to hear him talking to us about it.

Human beings, on the other hand, know only a fraction of what other people are thinking. That's why other people's words can hurt so much.

One last point. God knows what we really mean, whether we exaggerate it or understate it. Other people do not have this kind of knowledge.

Here is a verse from one of Blake's poems;

I was angry with my friend,
I told my friend, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe,
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

I think Blake had it right.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gareth
Shipmate
# 2494

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Talk about "giving with one hand and taking away with the other!"

Wonderful! I thought! A place to REALLY say what I feel in a proper, blistering rant!

And then I see people are analysing the rants!

WTF? [Mad]

I bet He is howling with laughter at that!

--------------------
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."
P. J. O'Rourke

Posts: 345 | From: Chaos | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Gareht I am (pretty) sure that post made sense to you but sadly not to me. Care to explain a bit, please.

P

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChrisT

One of the Good Guys™
# 62

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God, I just need a break.

--------------------
Firmly on dry land

Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Pyx_e, we've had that "it's not ok to say this stuff" discussion previously on this thread. Those of us who need this thread as a place to express anger at God decided that this is a sacred space to work things out, and that those who don't like it are welcome to visit other threads.

If you read this thread from the beginning, you'll find many interesting and poignant discussions about this.

God's a big girl. She can take care of Herself! [Wink]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Golden Key: And I am not saying “it is not OK to say this stuff.” I am suggesting that if you think that God who loves us is not hurt or indifferent to our ranting and raving against Him you are both wrong and doing yourself harm. Wrong because of the cross and harming yourself because you attempt to nullify the consequences of your actions.

As for God being a big girl and being able to take care of Herself, that sounds like justification for childish and hurtful behavior because She is big enough to deal with it. I shit on the idea.

I refuse in anyway to defend against the accusation that I am not in tune with this thread and should go somewhere else especially as I have posted to it eight times. If this were purgatory then I would suggest you come to Hell and apologise, as it is Hell, Bite me and while you are chewing, get off your high and might pity pot and re-read the friking thread yourself.

And who is this “we” that has made these decisions about this thread that makes its contents so holy as to be above criticism ? Is there a secret thread I do not know about? In your mind you may feel like you have the consensus of the posters on this thread behind you and they can line up and shoot me down if they like but I will not move to another thread and I will not shut up because you try and bully me in to it.

If you mean “we” then back it up with how you speak for the others. Do you have special mental powers that allow you to read minds? If you meant “I” then say so.

I take Moo’s point but it does not cover mine. Sure God knows us and loves us enough to understand and forgive but to pursue that argument does not point to His indifference to our cries against Him.

My point again for the simple and those in denial: God is hurt by our rantings against Him. That does not mean we should stop, it may mean we should be more careful. It does not mean that our cries are sinful, though it may mean that they can become so. It does not mean I think God can be damaged by our cries but it does mean that if he is moved to compassion it is because first he heard/felt our suffering. Shit if He is not moved by our plight WHAT is the POINT in JESUS. It is not rocket science.

P

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081

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Kenwritez,

Apologies if my question came across as being any sort of 'thought police' style thing. To have you say it was personal rant does clarify to me, and I don't think you need to go any further to explain it - as you said, there's no need to explain a rant.

My concern was whether there was within your rant a judgement on others posting here. In my suspicious nature I postulated a theory that said you'd just made up the angry feelings to make a clever point to challenge people about their self-centred attitudes. And while there may be a point for such challenges and analysis I didn't think it was on this thread.

Can you see why I maybe thought that? It seems like Eanswyth could see my point. I just wanted to stand up for the right of everyone posting here to pour out their pain at God, regardless of how irrational or self-centred it could possibly be argued to be. That includes your right to pour out your pain of course, so query over.

I can't claim to have much of a clue what God thinks about it.

OOT

--------------------
Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home.
Martyn Joseph

Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Originally posted by Pyx_e
quote:
I take Moo?s point but it does not cover mine. Sure God knows us and loves us enough to understand and forgive but to pursue that argument does not point to His indifference to our cries against Him.
I'm not sure you do get my point. I'm saying that since God knows exactly what is in our minds and hearts, saying this kind of thing is no worse than thinking it.

If we were perfectly holy we wouldn't think things like this, but we're not holy, so we do.

Given the fact that we think these things, I believe it is much better to say them directly to God. Otherwise they are likely to fester in our minds and hearts.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
My point again for the simple and those in denial: God is hurt by our rantings against Him. That does not mean we should stop, it may mean we should be more careful. It does not mean that our cries are sinful, though it may mean that they can become so. It does not mean I think God can be damaged by our cries but it does mean that if he is moved to compassion it is because first he heard/felt our suffering. Shit if He is not moved by our plight WHAT is the POINT in JESUS. It is not rocket science.

Pyx_e, I totally understand what you're saying. And I agree that God does indeed care and is moved to compassion. However, you're telling this to people whose lives, for whatever reason, leave them with the horrible suspicion that God doesn't care.

If I step outside of my faith and belief and look at this objectively and rationally, I'd say that I don't have much use for a God who isn't moved by my suffering, but gets his panties in a wad over my reactions to it. By continuing to reinforce the belief that words of anger and rage are bordering on sinful, you're sort of indirectly perpetuating the aforementioned God. I don't think you're consciously doing this, but that is an implication or at least an inference from the things that you say.

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Pyx_e,

I very specifically referenced *the folks who came here to vent*. We've been around this "don't say this stuff" merry-go-round many times on this thread. There were lots of hurt feelings, and people repeatedly said "please go away so we can rant out our pain".

I didn't say anything new. Nor was I trying to harm you. I was trying to point out what the past consensus on this thread has been, so we could avoid another mini-flame war--which would hurt both *you* and the venters.

Telling us not to yell at God when we're in deep pain is like pouring salt on our wounds. It's happened before on this thread. I *don't* think you mean to do that, but comments like yours have that effect. I thought maybe we should avoid going through that again.

That's all.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Moo, you are right I did not pick that up correctly from your post, sorry. Again I am not suggesting that it should not be said. And I agree with you that since he knows it then in honesty it is better out than in.

My latter return to this thread has been about (and I am uncomfortable with all the human emotions I am ascribing to God but being human what else can I say?) God being hurt/affected by it all. I am pretty sure he is happy that we are able to be this honest with him but that does not negate the fact that it does in some unknowable to me way infringe on him.

Erin, also I hear you and agree, I said this;

quote:
That does not mean we should stop, it may mean we should be more careful. It does not mean that our cries are sinful, though it may mean that they can become so.

And you replied thus :

quote:
By continuing to reinforce the belief that words of anger and rage are bordering on sinful, you're sort of indirectly perpetuating the aforementioned God.

And again I can see what you are trying to put forward and I hope that in the above quote you can see that I try and mitigate against any such suspicion by say that such communication is neither wrong nor sinful. But (and isn’t there always a but) just as in one sense keeping it locked up inside and letting it fester (Moo’s point) can be sinful (of course it may be us trying to come to terms with it and get it right before we lay it before Him) so at times can just continuing rage without any form of self awareness or discipline or without (dare I say it?) keeping it inside and considering it a bit.

However my point is not about the sinfulness or not of ranting against God. My point was that I do not believe that God is a block of stone off which this all bounces and to think so IS wrong (IMHO).

P

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Golden Key. OK I hear you. How about you consider that I am not saying “don’t say this stuff” ? I AM NOT TELLING YOU TO STOP YELLING AT GOD AND I AM NOT POURING SALT IN ANYBODIES WOUNDS.

How about you consider why when I say “It is about how this stuff has some effect on God” you keep hearing “Pyx_e is telling us to shut up” .

In short I suggest to you that you do not want to think that your “venting” is not words thrown into the wind but prayers that God hears. Either you are in a relationship with Him and He hears, is affected and cares. Or not (because you do not believe in Him or because you will not have anything to do with Him at the present) and you are venting at nothing.

To reiterate from the beginning of this thread. I rant at God, the world is a seemingly at times a shitty place but I am not pretending that He does not hear me or that it does not affect my relationship with Him. What is the point in ranting at something that I do not believe can hear me, is moved by what He hears or is so distant from me as to be a mockery. For God’s sake we only are able to do it because we love Him, and he us.

P

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Actually, when I read pyx_e's post I thought "That's what I want to hear. I want to hear that God is hurting over this stuff too-hurting over my hurt.That God cares."

So that's how I took it.

Remeber the old folk song, For Those Tears I Died ?

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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Hey OOT;

Thanks for the apology, we're cool.

FWIW, here in Hell I am who I am and you can safely take my posts in Hell at face value, unless context pretty damn clearly supports my words being ironic or sarcastic.

I despise manipulation and I won't pretend emotional distress to score off on Shipmates or judge them.

Hey Pyx_e:

Thank you for your honesty and admonition. You have given me something to think about. My realization is that I have to get honest before I can heal. Being honest with God means telling Him what I'm thinking and feeling. Sometimes I get incredibly frustrated with Him because He appears to act randomly or unfairly, and at other times I despair of trying to love an essentially unknowable God in love, a language in which I am such a cock-up.

My frustration on the table, I know, deep down inside me, that God really is perfect, righteous, holy, perfectly loving, perfectly good, perfectly omnipotent. I also know all the mental pictures I have of "perfect," "holy," "rightous," "good," et al, are the grossest and most inaccurate of cariacatures and bear no congruence with reality. It's easy for me to see God as some prissy, pince-nez'ed, purse-lipped bean counter and yet the God who would send His only beloved Son to die in agony for me cannot be reconciled to that wretched and wrong image of God as a narrow-minded judgmental git, rather than what He truly is: our loving Creator, our faithful King.

Any fault in the relationship between me and Him lies within me and my human, finite, untrustworthy perceptions and mortal character. Part of exercising my relationship with Him and learning, like an infant struggling to walk two steps, is to acknowledge what I see and feel, even if I see wrongly. Honesty demands this of me. When I rant, I'm telling God what I'm seeing, and the one undergirding thought beneath every one of my rants, is the acknowledgement of God's grace in allowing me this, and that God is God, will be God, and I very much am not God and never will be.

God may be grieved at my rants, I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if He was hurt. I think any loving father would be hurt at the things I've said to him. Here's the awkward bit: The nub of my ranting is I have to trust that God will allow me to continue hurting Him, that He loves me enough to call Him into Hell and pour all kinds of shit on Him in the name of my recovery from my fallen nature and my growth as His son, because if He can't accept me when I'm at my worst, then His acceptance of me at any other time is worthless and based only on my performance.

Much like a baby will poop and pee on his parents, who love him very much, so do I crap on my heavenly Da', but I pray the day is coming (and God, please let it be soon!) when I'll be "spiritually continent" and possessed of a cheery, Zen-like acceptance of the realities and pains and pleasures of my relationship with God. (Failing that, I'll settle for Him allowing me to continue my rants while His letting grace slowly perform its redemptive work in me and teach me what I need to know.)

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
How about you consider why when I say “It is about how this stuff has some effect on God” you keep hearing “Pyx_e is telling us to shut up” .

Because you keep saying that it hurts God and may be sinful. Presumably, that means we should avoid it.

In short I suggest to you that you do not want to think that your “venting” is not words thrown into the wind but prayers that God hears. Either you are in a relationship with Him and He hears, is affected and cares. Or not (because you do not believe in Him or because you will not have anything to do with Him at the present) and you are venting at nothing.

To reiterate from the beginning of this thread. I rant at God, the world is a seemingly at times a shitty place but I am not pretending that He does not hear me or that it does not affect my relationship with Him. What is the point in ranting at something that I do not believe can hear me, is moved by what He hears or is so distant from me as to be a mockery. For God’s sake we only are able to do it because we love Him, and he us.


It's also possible that sometimes people aren't sure about God's existence and/or nature. That nothing they've previously believed, or been taught, holds water. And bad circumstances, not of their own making, come crashing down on them--over and over and over.

So they yell at God, asking if God's there, if God cares, why things happen.

Frankly, I *want* God to hear and to answer. I have no idea if She does or not--She certainly doesn't seem to.

If She's omniscient, She knows already what I'm feeling/thinking. If She doesn't, then it's about time She did.

I honestly don't think God is going to be hurt by our raving and tantrums.

Sometimes, fighting with someone is a sign that you care about the relationship and want to work it out.

It's kind of like what the poet Rilke said about living the questions--and, hopefully, sometimes living your way into the answers. [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Either you are in a relationship with Him and He hears, is affected and cares. Or not (because you do not believe in Him or because you will not have anything to do with Him at the present) and you are venting at nothing.

Having watched this thread develop, and read it through carefully at various points Pyx_e, I think there is a third alternative that you may not have seen/realised.

Some are trying to be in a relationship with him (hence the yelling and shouting) and yet he doesn't seem to care.

I remember a Calvin Klein advert years ago, shot is black and white, with a bloke sitting watching TV, whilst the girl stood in the doorway watching him. She provided a voice over along the lines of: "I wish he'd love me, laugh with me, hug me, tease me. I wouldn't mind if he hated me, shouted at me, hit me, stormed out. Just as long as he didn't ignore me any more."

If we get ignored by someone (particularly a someone who is important to us perhaps, and we thought maybe liked us, and to whom we were important) then we start getting louder, and making our actions bigger, to try and get their attention. Being ignored, or having that someone just not care about us is a bad feeling.

Viki

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848

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Sarkycow cuts to the chase here. I am with you Sarkysis...

quote:
My latter return to this thread has been about (and I am uncomfortable with all the human emotions I am ascribing to God but being human what else can I say?) God being hurt/affected by it all. I am pretty sure he is happy that we are able to be this honest with him but that does not negate the fact that it does in some unknowable to me way infringe on him.

Ok. So what you are saying is that by our ranting and raving at him and telling him what a complete bastard he is, we are hurting God.

When in that frame of mind, a hurt God who understands is better than the cold stone you refer to... And when God is nothing but a cold stone to one, any kind of a response is a positive thing. Job comes to mind...

Maybe when we rant we are conscious of hurting God - and we are conscious we are hurting ourselves in the process. But sometimes this is necessary, just to get everything out from inside.

Because God understands our side of the situation better than we do, he is big enough to deal with us as we need.

I certainly hope you were not implying that it's ok for "that bastard in the sky" to hurt ME, but not ok for me to lament about it and punch him back. Of course, if we were perfectly holy, we would be like lifeless ragdolls in the hand of God, manipulated by his will alone, in perfect submission and "abandonment".

But we are not.

Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Beenster
Shipmate
# 242

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a late addition to this thread: I haven't got a tiny clue what goes on inside the head of the almighty but I suspect he would be a darned sight more pissed off if we showed a complete, genuine and total apathetic indifference to the situations that caused us to rant and rage against him? Yes?? No?? whatever that is just my thought.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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I am not saying

quote:
that it's ok for "that bastard in the sky" to hurt ME, but not ok for me to lament about it and punch him back.

In no way have I ever even implied that. Not least becasue I do not concieve of God as "that bastard in teh sky." This recent run of posts has been started by my contention with WD and Kenwritez about Him “not minding” or “losing any sleep” over this form of communication.

As part of the way in which we communicate with someone (something?) we love it strikes me as perfectly valid healthy and at times appropriate.

I like the way Ken’s idea (an extension of Moo’s) moves us on that: God knows how we feel, is pleased that we express ourselves honestly to Him, sacrifices His majesty to bear our pain and in this act of Love helps in our healing, to all this yes.

That at times this whole process seems to have within in it no sense of healing, true communication or any reciprocation seems obvious also. It would be churlish of me to mouth any of the unhelpful platitudes about “who moved” and about the nature of humanity making real communication almost impossible.

However I do ask the question that if at times we can not feel any sense of God does He at times not feel any sense of you or me. For me I know the answer to be truly yes, yes at times I want nothing to do with God in my head heart or soul. All this is a long way from His seeming ability to not feel in some way what we pray.

There is a Golden dagger in my heart that is God.
There is a Golden needle in Gods heart that is me.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eanswyth

Ship's raven
# 3363

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Kenwritez points out that if there is a flaw in one's relationship with a perfect God, the flaw must lie in the person. I know that and it's part of what makes me pissed off with God. Why does He have to be so damned inscrutable?

When I go through a problem, I often wonder what God wants out of it. Am I supposed to learn something? If so, maybe You need to give me remedial lessons because I haven't figured it out yet. The same crap keeps happening over and over and it feels worse each time.

"We know that all things work together for good for those who love God." Okaaaaay. It sure doesn't seem that way. Am I ever going to see how it works for good or does someone else get to benefit? Stepping outside of my personal situation, when thousands of babies die of starvation in Africa because of evil governments coupled with drought, where is the good? How does it bring glory to You? It sure doesnt' seem like you care for or love them.

Apparently I'm doing something totally wrong because I can't find You. You're nowhere I look. And before You say it, yes, I know I'm not looking in the right place. No frickin' DUH!! If I knew where to look, I would. You've left lots of clues which lots of people have followed. Good for them. I guess I'm too stupid to understand those clues, so I wander around lost. And You just keep repeating the same things over and over, but not in any way I understand. You put up big neon lights but I'm blind. You shout directions but I'm deaf. You send guides, but they walk fast and I'm lame and they don't notice that they've left me behind. Please, please, if Your really do want me, cure whatever infirmity is hindering me or send some other kind of clue.

Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
auntbeast
Shipmate
# 377

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Hey God... what Eanswyth just said, ditto!

I give up, I am supposed to find you but... you win... hide and seek is over... I'm going home now I looked everywhere, yep you're a good hider, hope you hid somewhere comfy because I can't figure out anywhere else to look. Bye Bye

Auntbeast

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"My vices are the children of a forced solitude that I abhor; and my virtues will necessarily arise when I live in communion with an equal" - Mary Shelley (Frankenstein)

Posts: 820 | From: Vancouver, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Auntbeast [Not worthy!]

and afterwhile, God comes in sheepishly to the room where we're all grumpily sitting around.

"Guess I made it too hard, huh?"

"DUH!!!"

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
auntbeast
Shipmate
# 377

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Posted by golden key
quote:

"Guess I made it too hard, huh?"
"DUH!!!"

Some days the search for God reminds me of a game we used to play at church camp. We always played it on a day when the staff needed a couple of hours off but the kids had to be amused. It was called Safari.

All the staff would head off into the woods (on our safe property) and the kids would have to go around and find the staff, each of whom had declared themselves an animal and hid accordingly. The cabin of kids who found the most "animals on safari" won. The kids had a ball and the staff got to relax for a while in their hiding places.

One year a particularly enthusiastic staff member decided to be a salamander. He hid himeslf under some leaves behind a dead log. He was also wearing camoflage gear. None of the kids found him, he fell asleep, and wandered out of the bush a couple of hours later wondering why no one had blown the whistle to end the game.

I keep waiting for God to wander out of the bushes, I don't think He heard me blow the whistle that the game is over and I give up.

All good things,
Auntbeast.

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"My vices are the children of a forced solitude that I abhor; and my virtues will necessarily arise when I live in communion with an equal" - Mary Shelley (Frankenstein)

Posts: 820 | From: Vancouver, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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...and sometimes, the search feels like a "snipe hunt".

That's a kind of hazing/joke played on new people (at camp, for instance). You're sent out to find/capture a non-existent snipe bird.

The purpose is to get the new people royally lost and embarassed, while the senior people watch from a distance and laugh.

And actually, there is such a thing as a snipe bird, but it's not involved in the hunt.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848

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What exactly IS a snipe bird?

Pyx_e, your post is beautiful. Thankyou.

Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Nunc, they include sandpipers and their relatives.

Snipe bird info

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dave the Bass
Shipmate
# 155

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I haven't posted here before because I've never felt bad enough, but now I feel I really have hit rock bottom, so you'd better be listening, God.

All my life I've been trying to do your thing - going to church, praying, helping other people, trying to make his world just a bit more bearable. I don't say I've always done it right - there's plenty of times I've screwed up. But when I look at where it's got me - my home a borrowed room in someone else's house, no way of earning any sort of living, every thing I've ever tried a total failure - I start to wish I'd never heard of you. You talk of giving us life in all its fullness, but all I get is life in all its emptiness and futility. You keep dangling the promise of a better life in front of me, but when I reach out to take it, you whip it away so that I fall flat on my face, and you can have a bloody good laugh. Now I don't even bother reaching out, as I know whatever you offer will always be just out of reach. I can see the oases shimmering in the distance, but however hard I try to move towards them I know I'll remain lost in the desert. Anytime I go somewhere, I go on my own, because there's no-one around to share life's great adventure, and after a while I get so bored with myself that I stop trying to be excited. So now I spend all day in my room letting out silent screams of rage and frustration, and no-one can hear me. I fill my day with meaningless activity in a vain attempt to keep the boredom away, but each night I go to bed with the same black thoughts rattling around my brain so loud that I can't sleep. I've just about had enough - one day you'll turn around to look for me, and I won't be there. I'll have turned away from you to work out my own damnation in a world of chaos and lies. And what will you do then? Shrug your shoulders as another one falls away, and carry on your own sweet way with those sheep you can fit into your green pastures, while the rest of us are left to wander in the wilderness, without a home, without a pathway, without hope.

Posts: 2162 | From: In a forest | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LucyH
Shipmate
# 3570

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Dave C I think it won't always feel this way . And your choices have not gone un noticed I'm sure.Does it help to know that if I who am evil know that I want you to be comforted how much more does your Father in heaven want it excuse cheesy paraphrase]. Adrian Plass who saved me from complete apostasy says' Nothing is wasted.' By God he meant. I am the other side of the world, so how can you tell I care? Only because I say so. Sometimes that's all we get to go on from God too. Don't know why, but at least He says so if indeed Jesus is his express image as Paul says.Jesus never said 'get over it 'to anyone and if he was on earth I would tell Him about you and He would do something. None of us knows why its not that easy now. I will tell him about you of course... and pray. [Waterworks]
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ChrisT

One of the Good Guys™
# 62

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Singularly unhelpful, LucyH, but you meant well. And maybe that's the problem. You meant well according to what you understand, according to what you know.

Dave, mate, give me an address and I'll send you beer money.

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Firmly on dry land

Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Yep. And if you want a trip over t'pennines I can show you some good hostelries wherein to part with said.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisT:
Dave, mate, give me an address and I'll send you beer money.

Ditto.

--------------------
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dave the Bass
Shipmate
# 155

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Thanks guys - shortage of beer money is not a problem, as I don't drink much of the stuff. My abstemious lifestyle means that the option of forgetting my problems by getting absolutely rat-arsed is not an ooption - I don't know if this is a blessing or a curse.

Lucy - I have no problem believing that you care. And one day I might be able to believe that God cares - but right now I just can't see it.

Posts: 2162 | From: In a forest | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LucyH
Shipmate
# 3570

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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisT:
Singularly unhelpful, LucyH, but you meant well. And maybe that's the problem. You meant well according to what you understand, according to what you know.

Unfortunately that's all I have - meaning well. It was an offering not a solutionn And btw ouch!

[Meaning well does not excuse non-use of preview post.]

[ 12. April 2003, 00:14: Message edited by: sarkycow ]

Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026

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my first post in hell and I'm SCARED!

I got up out of bed tonight because I was feeling panicky and wanting to harm myself and because right now I have no idea what God is doing with me but it doesn't feel like sweet salvation.

I've spent about an hour reading this thread with so many emotions but what I want to say is this: the posts that brought some peace, some sanity, some support and some love into this dark room and *even* seemed to usher in the presence of the Almighty a little tiny bit were the ones that were the most honest, vitriolic and tenacious toward Him.

The ones telling me to breathe deeply, look up to my Artexed ceiling, read obscure bits of the Bible or take a good long look at my theology were the ones that made me want to go to the knife drawer right now.

Luckily for me, there were more of the former.

So thankyou for letting me glimpse and eavesdrop. Maybe another night I'll rant more. Tonight I'm just going back to bed now unharmed.

[Smile] [Embarrassed] [Smile]

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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard

Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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Welcome to Hell, caz! (And yes, I mean that in the nicest way. [Big Grin] )

I think this is a great thread, and I'm proud of my Shipmates for posting here honestly and passionately.

Please post again and let us know how you're doing.

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848

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Just to second what kenwritz said.

I am totally overwhelmed at how much identification shipmates have been able to offer each other on this thread. I had no idea when I started it how universal the feeling that God had buggered off was.

I hope and pray for all who have posted here expressing such frustration, that eventually we will attain the love and warmth of God in spite of all we have been through...

Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Caz:

Welcome. Glad you found the thread. Please hang in there. BTW, I just sent you a private message--you can access it through the link to your profile at the top of the screen.

Nunc:

[Not worthy!]

Thank you always and forever for starting this thread. Possibly the best one we've ever had. If you'll pardon the imagery, you created an opportunity for us to lance our boils.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
auntbeast
Shipmate
# 377

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Ditto to golden key.

It really does make a difference to know that other people have felt just a "buggered off on" by God as I have. When it feels like God is on vacation somewhere sunny sipping Daquiri's, there are still God's people around doing what God is not. Sort of like Holy vacation coverage.

If God really is about love and community then I suppose that God is not completely missing in action if people are still around taking care of each other.

Many thanks to all who have posted here and made me feel less alone.

All good things,
Auntbeast

P.S. Caz, good to hear you are back in bed and unharmed. You will find others here on these boards who have gone in and out of the desire to hurt themselves and who have wrestled with, and continue to wrestle with a myriad of things. Welcome to the ship and welcome to hell!

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"My vices are the children of a forced solitude that I abhor; and my virtues will necessarily arise when I live in communion with an equal" - Mary Shelley (Frankenstein)

Posts: 820 | From: Vancouver, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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