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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: New Hampshire gay bishop
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Regarding an earlier post, I will say this about that: when it comes to clergy, black people good, homosexuals bad! I am all for diversity but not that sort of diversity. 411 - to the best of my knowledge, the rector is still a fine Japanese-American priest whom I saw there a few years ago and were he Black or Native American or a woman, he would still have my father's approval and that of his parents. My late paternal grandmother was buried by a woman priest of St. Alban's in 1985, atlhough by the time she was in her nineties she had since ceased to be an active parishioner due to residing 400 miles away in Walnut Creek, CA. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Regarding an earlier post, I will say this about that: when it comes to clergy, black people good, homosexuals bad! I am all for diversity but not that sort of diversity.
You know, I absolutely LOATHE this little smiley thing, and I've never used it before, but if ever a statement deserved it.... ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Are you saying current church membership should be bound by the opinions and prejudices of dead people?
How does this differ from Tradition? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I knew I was leaving myself open, even as I typed it. I knew it.
So just let me say, and I think even Father Gregory will agree with me, that tradition is not a static thing.
And thank-you, Sir Kevin, for explaining the limits of diversity. Well, we all have our opinions. And you know what they say about opinions.
(Gosh I wish this thread were in Hell.)
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Regarding an earlier post, I will say this about that: when it comes to clergy, black people good, homosexuals bad!
Why?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
because that what I was taught as a child, Erin and that is my particular interpretation of the bible. We can honour parents by giving them grandchilren if we wish or at least by not doing something that is against every fibre of their being. I am liberal about things such as legalization of cannabis in all states and all countries and a universal ban on capital punishment; I believe a woman can and should be ordained in protestant or anglo-catholic churches, but on this issue I will not budge. Consider me the arch-conservative here.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Big Steve
Ship's Navigator
# 3274
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Posted
The mind boggles. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
...anyway, getting back to the thread.
Sir Kevin sir, I have a question. Do straight white clergy or gay black clergy have any place in the church?
You seem to imply they don't.
[ 24. July 2003, 16:53: Message edited by: Jimi Kendricks ]
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http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic
Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Consider me the arch-conservative here.
What I consider you is not suitable for Purgatory. (I'm not sure it's even suitable for Hell, though I'm seriously considering testing that theory out.)
However, at some point someone in your family had to become a Christian, because Christianity has not existed since time immemorial, so by the "logic" (and boy do I use that word in its loosest possible sense), you're spitting on your great-X-whatever-parents graves by adhering to a faith that they did not belong to.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Kevin Iga
Shipmate
# 4396
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Are you saying current church membership should be bound by the opinions and prejudices of dead people?
How does this differ from Tradition?
A Catholic friend of mine quoted a Catholic theologian (I forget who) who calls "Tradition" the "Democracy of the Dead".
Also, the Reconstructionist Synagogue in Malibu uses the phrase "The past has a vote, but not a veto."
Kevin
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Presbyterian /prez.bi.ti'.ri.en/ n. One who believes the governing authorities of the church should be called "presbyters".
Posts: 521 | From: Pepperdine University | Registered: Apr 2003
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Kevin Iga
Shipmate
# 4396
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Regarding an earlier post, I will say this about that: when it comes to clergy, black people good, homosexuals bad! I am all for diversity but not that sort of diversity.
Let me see if I understand you.
You said changing our attitudes on homosexuals is bad since it goes against what our forefathers believed.
You said changing our attitudes on Blacks is good even though it goes against what our forefathers believed, because they were wrong and we are right.
It seems to me that the criterion you are using is not "honoring our fathers and mothers" but rather what you believe to be right, that is, we should continue the traditions of our fathers and mothers unless we disagree with them.
Kevin
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Presbyterian /prez.bi.ti'.ri.en/ n. One who believes the governing authorities of the church should be called "presbyters".
Posts: 521 | From: Pepperdine University | Registered: Apr 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Iga:
A Catholic friend of mine quoted a Catholic theologian (I forget who) who calls "Tradition" the "Democracy of the Dead".
Chesterton.
Ha! I beat Jesuitical Lad to it! I can recognise not only Lewis quotes but Chesterton ones too! I RULE!! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
David
oh dear, that was the sin of pride, wasn't it? Oops ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
This just in:
"Group Prepared to Respond if General Convention approves. . ." Episcopal News Service 07/24/03
I particularly like the bit of coyness around "including an element of surprise." ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) God help us.
[ 24. July 2003, 22:55: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I sincerely hope it means a split. I have a feeling that is what a lot of these people actually want ; though they may not take that much of the CofE itself with them - probably a quarter ?
I'll hold a virtual party if it does.
Maybe then we can get back to being Anglicans.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
The whole tradition thing is interesting. I do not want to abandon tradition, which I hold to be the fruits of the Holy Spirit enabling Christians to reflect on God's revelation in Christ. But I think there is a need to disentangle Tradition (with a capital 'T') from the accidental debris of prejudice and domination. I hold that opposition to gays belongs in the latter category.
Merseymike, I too think that some of the threatened departures would be no sad loss. Let me have details of that party.
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insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
Lest anyone think otherwise, Sir Kevin and I are most emphatically not in agreement on this issue.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
I figured as much...
Kevin,when you crossed the Tiber didn't anybody tell you that the seminary was where they sent nice Catholic boys who weren't interested in girls?
Just wondering,
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Elizabeth Anne
Altar Girl
# 3555
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
This just in:
"Group Prepared to Respond if General Convention approves. . ." Episcopal News Service 07/24/03
I particularly like the bit of coyness around "including an element of surprise." God help us.
"Element of surprise"? Oh, boy. This should be fun. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...
Posts: 974 | From: New York | Registered: Nov 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
OK, Anglican Rascal. I have had one partner for 10 years (and nothing previous). We see ourselves together for the rest of our lives and we have made a public ceremony of saying so. Neither of us has so much as fantasised about anyone else.
May I be a bishop, please. We're both over 30.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Arabella, you have my vote.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Arabella, you have my vote.
Thank you - I have been wondering where you were.
Actually, there is a problem with me becoming a bishop - the little matter of my being Presbyterian.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
Arabella, if the Presbys ever decide to get bishops, you go girl!!
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
This just in:
"Group Prepared to Respond if General Convention approves. . ." Episcopal News Service 07/24/03
People who hold secret meetings have no business complaining that what other people are doing will impair unity. Words cannot express the contempt I feel for secret meetings and rather less than veiled threats. And, my word, over something that is NOT A SALVATION ISSUE.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Clay_Pigeon
Mathematics
# 2516
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Posted
This may or may not be of interest to anyone, but on Thursday Gene Robinson gave an very eloquent interview on NPR's Fresh Air. Whether or not you feel he should be confirmed as bishop, the man's abiding love for and through Christ shone like the sun in the interview. It may be enlightening to hear, first hand, how he feels about this dispute. Real Audio and 50 minutes are needed to hear the whole interview.
-Troy
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THAT'S IT! NOW I'M PISSED!. You're so off my prayer list.
-Was Once Troy
Posts: 599 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
These people are behaving like the high school student council.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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TheMightyTonewheel
Shipmate
# 4730
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth Anne:
But to be fair, not all of the so-called "traditional, small 'o' orthodox" clerics are advocating schism. Here is an open letter by The Rev. Dr. Ephraim Radner to "the conservative clergy of the Diocese of Colorado." I completely and utterly disagree with his position, but even I have to admit that his letter is remarkably gracious and eloquent, as is Louie Crew's response. As unbelievably varying as our beliefs may be, we are all part of the same church family and we have to learn how to live with each other somehow.
Actually...Dr. Radner was among the signatories of the statement from "Mainstream Anglicans" that led to the New York Times story. I believe he also appeared at the press conference.
[edited code]
[ 25. July 2003, 14:02: Message edited by: Scot ]
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"I detected one misprint, but to torture you I will not tell you where." -- Winston Churchill to T.E. Lawrence, re Seven Pillars of Wisdom
Posts: 57 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth Anne:
"Element of surprise"? Oh, boy. This should be fun.
It's things like this which make me want to stick with the mainline Episcopal/Anglican church even when I don't agree with it. People who act like that ("element of suprise") make me want to disassociate myself from them even when I may be in partial or full agreement with them.
"[P]rimates and bishops of the Anglican Communion" should not, in my very strongly-held view, be "gather[ing] in secret" and "refus[ing]to divulge any specific plans" about their "element of surprise." Whatever the **** happened to the anti-Gnostic "we do things openly" attitude of the early Church? If they want to schism, let them, but they should make it clear that they plan to do it. I expect they'll just walk out en masse or something.
I don't believe in blessing sexual intercourse (however that is understood -- I know there was some controversy surrounding my position on this and I don't want to start it up again here) outside of male-female marriage, but even at its most extreme, I **** well don't agree with the approach the opposing side is taking here, and has been taking for some time.
And, again, they're not doing this over the church allowing bishops to hold heretical views on basic tenets like the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth -- they're doing it over sex. Where the **** are their priorities??? ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
David
naughty words deleted because this is Purgatory, not Hell
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
And, again, they're not doing this over the church allowing bishops to hold heretical views on basic tenets like the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth -- they're doing it over sex. Where the **** are their priorities???
Their priority is POWER. Power is sustained by populist support. The average Joe knows diddly about theological issues, but he sure knows he ain't a pansy. Throughout history, groups reaching for power will always base their appeal on lowest common denominator issues, not their real agenda. These people are an anathema to me, to paraphrase another thread that's running.
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I don't know, maybe they just think it's the highest priority the Church faces today.
I think they're really, really wrong, if they believe that. But I don't think it need be all about power. If it was, and not about doctrine, and they thought things were turning the other way, wouldn't they just jump to the other side? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
By Chast: I don't know, maybe they just think it's the highest priority the Church faces today.
I can't figure this one out myself, or the total lack of discussion about theology. Your point is good too Glimmer. I can't remember if I said it in my earlier post on this thread, but I haven't heard a single word about Canon Robinson's stance on faith matters, just the details of his private life.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
If it was, and not about doctrine, and they thought things were turning the other way, wouldn't they just jump to the other side?
At the moment, they think they're in the ascendant. See what happens when the tide runs out....
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I HUMBLY APOLOGIZE TO ALL THOSE WHOM I HAVE OFFENDED on this thread. ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif) ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I am not a racist - those who know me know this. I did not mean to say my ancestors were racists or bigots. They were not (they fought for the Union in the US civil war and emigrated from England, France and Germany a century or more before). I learned the importance of diversity in high school in LA County many years ago. Classmates I remembered best at a recent reunion were mostly Black and Mexican-American. I am a minority in the school district where I substitute teach and get along with everybody.
This has been a difficult summer for my wife and I as we have both lost close relatives (although that is no excuse for bad manners). I do have views differing from other Shipmates (including my wife), and I expressed them badly as I know now. I have posted on controversial topics before, but more intelligently. I am not stupid, but sometimes impulsive. I only got a 'C' in speech at university and I guess it shows! Sorry what I said or meant was misconstrued. Please forgive me:brickwall:
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
And, again, they're not doing this over the church allowing bishops to hold heretical views on basic tenets like the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth -- they're doing it over sex. Where the **** are their priorities???
David
naughty words deleted because this is Purgatory, not Hell
Exactly David. In Britain we have just seen someone who would probably have been one of the most doctrinally orthodox bishops in the CofE rejected because of the sex issue. One of the Bishops concerned (Carlise), when Bishop of Willesden licensed a theological non-realist to a post. As you say, priorities? It would almost be funny if it wasn't so depressing.
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insert amusing sig. here
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TheMightyTonewheel
Shipmate
# 4730
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Posted
quote:
And, again, they're not doing this over the church allowing bishops to hold heretical views on basic tenets like the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth -- they're doing it over sex. Where the **** are their priorities???
I'm rather curious about this apparent idea that human sexuality is somehow a side issue for Christians. But I agree that it is very disquieting when it seems to be the only issue for some Christians.
The counterargument to that would be that, in the case of same-sex blessings in ECUSA, the views are in the form of a national church resolution, and are therefore about to become the official view of the church. This is a much more significant step than an individual Bishop holding a personal opinion that is differs from the church's teaching.
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"I detected one misprint, but to torture you I will not tell you where." -- Winston Churchill to T.E. Lawrence, re Seven Pillars of Wisdom
Posts: 57 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003
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MaryO
Shipmate
# 161
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Posted
Re: tradition and secret meetings.
The Fathers of the Church who met in Chalcedon in 451 were _explicit_ about such meetings. Canon XVIII:
The crime of conspiracy or banding together is utterly prohibited even by the secular law, and much more ought it to be forbidden in the Church of God. Therefore, if any, whether clergymen or monks, should be detected in conspiring or banding together, or hatching plots against their bishops or fellow-clergy, they shall by all means be deposed from their own rank.
_Who's_ claiming to honor Tradition?
MaryO
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Hanging around off and on since 2001.
Posts: 349 | From: New York City | Registered: May 2001
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
Never had occasion to use this smiley before.
MaryO
thanks
basso
Posts: 4358 | From: Bay Area, Calif | Registered: Mar 2003
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
Does anybody know what is going on? Did they vote? Or is it not this weekend, as I thought?
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
Ah, I did have the wrong dates. Thanks, I can think about more normal things for a few days. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Wally,
There was an interview with Bishop-elect Robinson on NPR last week. There was not a great deal of theology covered during the discussion, but my impression is that if he and his theology must be labeled, it should probably be "orthodox". He seems quite comfortable using several key words and phrases that many theological liberals avoid at all costs.
You can listen to the interview via the NPR website if you have an audio player.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amazing Grace*
Shipmate
# 4754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Wally,
There was an interview with Bishop-elect Robinson on NPR last week. There was not a great deal of theology covered during the discussion, but my impression is that if he and his theology must be labeled, it should probably be "orthodox". He seems quite comfortable using several key words and phrases that many theological liberals avoid at all costs.
You can listen to the interview via the NPR website if you have an audio player.
Greta
It was on "Fresh Air" for anyone looking.
I might go over there and relisten; I apparently zoned out during a period where he discussed his upbringing in some sort of holiness church in rural was-it-Kentucky? Anyway, as an ex-fundy in the Episcopal Church, I was interested in that.
No, he didn't strike me as a theological liberal either.
Charlotte (aka Amazing Grace)
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.sig on vacation
Posts: 2594 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Charlotte,
I initialy missed the earlier part of the interview, and so for me it began with the tale of the son of a share-cropper from rural Kentucky, who was raised in the Disciples of Christ denomination, a body that is considered mainline although I think its roots are in the evangelical/holiness/revivalist Great Awakening.
Slow as I am, I was very impressed by this man with such a beauiful voice, who was saying such wonderful things about his present Church, the ECUSA, without being the least bit critical of the church he left.
As he continuted to answer questions, he seemed to radiate such deep faith, such Christ-like love, and such devotion to his Church, that I asked myself, "Who on earth is this person, and why is NPR runnig something that appears to be an infomercial for the Episcopal Church"?
Then it dawned on me: "He's Bishop-elect Robinson, you dummie, and this is NPR covering mext week's Convention. Now stop crying and pay attention to your driving!"
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Wow ; that really is an encouragement. Thanks for the link.
Greta , I'm intrigued to know what the language is he uses which you would consider to be not consistent with liberal theology. I suppose it depends on how you define it again...
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Greta, thanks a lot for the post about the Fresh Air interview. I listened to it last night. Along with you and Charlotte, I found the part about his background to be very interesting. I was very impressed by him and will be saddened if he is shot down. One of the most interesting things to me was his view on the Jeffrey John affair. He said the real "h" word that was in question was honesty. Pretty scathing.
Mike, obviously in the interview they didn't talk about theology a whole lot. The one thing he said that really struck me was the statement about bringing the good news of Jesus Christ to people in need.
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
And, again, they're not doing this over the church allowing bishops to hold heretical views on basic tenets like the Resurrection or the Virgin Birth -- they're doing it over sex. Where the **** are their priorities???
If a split occurs, I imagine that those who are willing to take the new line on sexuality will also be the ones taking the "radical" interpretations on the virgin birth and the resurrection. On the other side of the chasm will probably be those who take both the orthodox line on sexuality and on issues like the resurrection and virgin birth.
Well, that's the way that the divide seems to occur here in Australia and also how it appears to be with those CofE bishops that I can think of.
This issue may allow the split to happen relatively cleanly, rather than the forcing out of individual unorthodox bishops through messy trials in ecclesiastical courts.
We live in interesting times.
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
By anglicanrascal:If a split occurs, I imagine that those who are willing to take the new line on sexuality will also be the ones taking the "radical" interpretations on the virgin birth and the resurrection. On the other side of the chasm will probably be those who take both the orthodox line on sexuality and on issues like the resurrection and virgin birth.
That's not the impression I got with bishop elect Robinson, but I probably need to do some more research on that. Can anyone add anything about Jeffrey John?
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Paige
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# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
If a split occurs, I imagine that those who are willing to take the new line on sexuality will also be the ones taking the "radical" interpretations on the virgin birth and the resurrection.
Well, in my case, at least, you imagine wrongly.
And I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I posed to you several days ago---the one where I asked you why you felt qualified to judge Rev. Robinson's "faithfulness."
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Merseymike
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# 3022
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Posted
Jeffrey John's theology is towards the catholic end of AffCath ; I would be very surprised if he would have any major problems with either of these doctrines.
I think it would be somewhat surprising if the only people to favour an affirming position on gay issues were those on the far edge of liberalism. In fact, I know it isn't the case.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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anglicanrascal
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# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by paigeb:
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
If a split occurs, I imagine that those who are willing to take the new line on sexuality will also be the ones taking the "radical" interpretations on the virgin birth and the resurrection.
Well, in my case, at least, you imagine wrongly.
I was not trying to force the point that it will be exactly as I imagined in every single case, but I wouldn't be surprised if the fault lines fell fairly well as I pencilled out in my earlier post. quote:
And I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I posed to you several days ago---the one where I asked you why you felt qualified to judge Rev. Robinson's "faithfulness."
Dear paigeb,
I had no idea that you sat perched on the edge of your seat waiting for my every post. I apologise that, on this occasion, I have been unable to extend to you the efficient response to your question that our service contract specifies.
You stated above that you asked me why I "felt qualified to judge Rev. Robinson's 'faithfulness'". That's not what you asked me; you asked: quote:
-if the person who was most directly harmed by Gene Robinson's actions (his ex-wife) has forgiven him and supports him for the bishopric, who are you---or anyone else---to deny him that post?
Our views are obviously so far apart that I thought there was little point trying to talk to you about how I think things work. I can't imagine why you would think that Gene Robinson's wife was the main person and the only person (based on your reasoning about your own situation from your previous paragraph "yet I am the ONLY person who was hurt by his actions and I would not disqualify him on that basis.") to be hurt by his actions. I think that God and the Church are also deeply hurt by marital infidelities. That's the reason that the early church insisted on higher standards of morality for its leaders.
It's inconceivable to me how you could think that only the partners to a marriage can be hurt by unfaithfulness which occurs within it. I see from your profile that you are in the USA. Do you think that ONLY Hilary Clinton was hurt by Bill's affair with Monica? Of course not - the act of betrayal was felt by many people across the country. Do you think that a victim of sexual abuse in the Church is the ONLY person hurt by the abuser's actions? You can see from the crises in the Roman Church that that is not the case. When Jimmy Bakker was exposed, was it ONLY the people whose money he had taken who felt betrayed by his actions? Of course not!
The fact that you posted in response to my statements to Magnum Mysterium and Dyfrig shows that you believe that in a community, the actions of members have all kinds of effects on others. If Magnum Mysterium and Dyfrig said that they had no problem with what I said to them, do you think that your claims would be null and void? No, the effect of my actions would still be felt in the community. It's the same with the blatant, unrepentant infidelity that we are discussing.
If the person that Jimmy Bakker stole most of the money from freely forgave him and said that actually, it was OK to steal the money - would the Bakkers' church have to discount the theft when considering whether he was suitable to serve as a church leader? If someone had been sexually abused by a bishop and then later forgave that bishop and said that they supported the bishop's other sexual relationships - would the church community be bound not to judge whether that bishop was worthy of his post?
Do you really believe that if the person most directly harmed by a Church leader's unrepentant infidelity has forgiven him and supports him, that it is not right for anyone else to deny him that post?
I really can't see how you could believe that.
You said you believed that you believe that "Bishops and priests are necessarily held to a higher standard" but you don't specify what that standard should be. It sounds like it is: "Ignoring the standard that Holy Scripture sets for a bishop, do those previously affected by their actions forgive them?"
I would disagree with that kind of standard for judgement. My belief is that if a person does not live up to the standard required of a bishop as found in Holy Scripture, then - no matter what their nearests and dearests say - they should not be made a bishop.
I have a feeling that you will continue to disagree with me, but I hope you can understand my arguments.
Yours etc,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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CorgiGreta
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# 443
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Posted
Mike,
As I recall, Bishop-elect Robinson seemed so comfortable using phrases such as "going to Heaven", "Lord and Master", "followers of Jesus Christ", etc. that I had the impression his theology is in the orthodox range of the spectrum. I admit, though, that this was a gut reaction.
Greta
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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