Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: New Hampshire gay bishop
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I think David Virtue is the one that you don't ever want to mention around tomb.
On to worse things... +Jecko sent this out last night...
quote: The House of Deputies today approved, by approximately 60/40, a motion approving the consecration and ordination of V. Gene Robinson as the next Bishop of New Hampshire. Our Lay Deputies and clergy unanimously voted "no." The measure now moves to the House of Bishops for its consideration. If the House of Bishops consents to the action, the way is cleared for the consecration to take place. This action clearly ignores the requests of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Primates of the Anglican Communion, the Bishops of the Anglican Communion meeting in Lambeth in 1998, and recent stated positions of leaders of The Episcopal Church in the USA, not to do this. The action is contrary to the constitutional foundation of The Episcopal Church as stated in its Preamble. The action is clearly contrary to the positions of a majority of the congregations in the Diocese of Florida. Those who have voted in favor of this action have forced our Episcopal Church to "put one foot outside" the fellowship of the worldwide Anglican Communion. If the House of Bishops votes in favor of consent on Monday, those Bishops voting in favor will have made the action complete.
I urge the members of the Diocese of Florida to remain calm and in prayer. In concert with Bishops of other Dioceses committed to resisting this political onslaught---in defiance of the teaching of the Holy Scriptures, of Reason informed by the Holy Spirit, and the cumulative Tradition of the Christian Church (not to mention our own Constitution)---I will work to ensure that the Diocese of Florida continues a constituent member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury and the rest of the Anglican Communion. Please, be in prayer for our Church; make no thoughtless or faithless reactions. God is still in charge. When we know the final results of the House of Bishop's actions tomorrow, I will have other suggestions for a rational and faithful way forward. God bless you all.
*sigh*
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Erin: I think David Virtue is the one that you don't ever want to mention around tomb.
I think it's David Anderson, actually, of the American Anglican Council, formerly rector at St. James, Newport Beach, California.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
No, its wait till October , when we get together with our fellow ********** (fill in dependent on theology) and then declare schism, but try and pretend that we are still Anglican!
I look forward to the day.
-------------------- Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Isn't it interesting that these conservative types in ECUSA were content to remain members of the church whilst John Shelby Spong was a diocesan, and systematically calling into question essential components of orthodox belief, but threaten a walk out when (shock, horror) a bishop who has the honesty to say he is gay is appointed?
*And let's have none of this 'first gay bishop' nonsense. Anyone who believes that is too naive for words.
-------------------- insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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St. Cuervo
Son of a Son of a Sailor
# 4725
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf: Isn't it interesting that these conservative types in ECUSA were content to remain members of the church whilst John Shelby Spong was a diocesan, and systematically calling into question essential components of orthodox belief, but threaten a walk out when (shock, horror) a bishop who has the honesty to say he is gay is appointed?
It is interesting that Spong was repremanded by the House of Bishops in 1989 for ordaining a homosexual but, you are quite correct, never officially sanctioned for his theology.
It would seem to me, as a quasi-neutral Presbyterian observer, that, to a ECUSA conservative, Bishop Spong's theology was far far more "dangerous" than his ordaining a homosexual or three.
The conservatives were able to challenge Bishop Pike of California in the 1960s for his theology but they seemed to have lost their nerve (or numbers) by the time John Spong was hitting full stride.
Still Watching,
St. C.
-------------------- I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked... angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night...
Posts: 295 | From: Falls Church, VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
As JL noted above, allegations emerge regarding Gene Robinson. Interesting timing that this would come out right now, hours before the final vote.
quote: (AP) - Episcopalian leaders delayed a vote Monday on whether to confirm the church's first openly gay elected bishop after allegations involving "touching" and "pornography" emerged against the clergyman, a church spokesman said. Jim Solheim, the spokesman, would not elaborate on the allegations against the Rev. V. Gene Robinson.
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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Elizabeth Anne
Altar Girl
# 3555
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eanswyth: Interesting timing that this would come out right now, hours before the final vote.
True, that. I smell a cheap shot.
-------------------- Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...
Posts: 974 | From: New York | Registered: Nov 2002
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eanswyth: Interesting timing that this would come out right now, hours before the final vote.
So was THIS the little thing the cabal cooked up in Fairfax last week?
-------------------- Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
I'm ambivalent about the issue of gay people in orders. It seems like so much of a storm in a teacup to me, I just cannot get worked up about it one way or the other.
So, when the great conflagration comes and the Church falls into the sin of schim that MerseyMike will greet with such joy and utter delight, I wonder which "side" I will be on? Since MerseyMike seems to think that one's entire political, theological and philosophical being is informed and dictated by one's attitude toward homosexuals, where does he think I will find my church home if the Anglican communion should split into "pro-gay/saved/all-around-good-egg and reasonable people Anglicans" and "homophobic/Republican/evil/Bible-believing/monarchist/nazi/baby-eating Anglicans?"
Since it is not an issue of any importance to me, maybe he thinks I should just stay home and read my collection of faery stories we know as the Bible.
HT
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, we all know that them homos can't keep their hands off our kids.
However, Jecko is my bishop, and I just found out that my rector was one of the unanimous NO votes in the House of Deputies, so I don't know what I'm going to do.
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
More details of the accusation from Reuters
L.
-------------------- Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I can't get the Episcopal New Service site or the General Convention site to come up - their servers must be flooded.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I imagine they are -- hell, this whole episode made the top headline of my local paper, here in Southern Baptist Mecca.
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
I wonder if there was a pubic hair in his Coke, too.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
If this is the best they can come up with, it says a lot about Gene Robinson.
I don't think Anglican evangelicals could have fallen much further in my estimation, but here we find them scrabbling around in their sewer again. And you wonder why I want a split ? I would have thought it was obvious.
-------------------- Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Merseymike: I don't think Anglican evangelicals could have fallen much further in my estimation, but here we find them scrabbling around in their sewer again.
How do you know it was evangelicals?
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Yeah, really, how do you know?
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Merseymike: I don't think Anglican evangelicals could have fallen much further in my estimation, but here we find them scrabbling around in their sewer again.
I really enjoy it when people make spurious comments with no evidence, it shows them for what they are.
-------------------- I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
A little correction about my bete noir--it's David Virtue, not David Anderson. Virtue wrote something scurrilous about me over an article I wrote during the Denver General Convention three years ago. I seem to be in good company. There are few people I know who haven't had something scurrilous written about them by David Virtue.
I have known David Anderson since the early '90s. Although I disagree with him on many things, I have a great deal of respect for him.
Virtue, on the other hand.... Well, since this isn't Hell, the less said, the better, I suppose.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Because I'm getting regular emails from a number of people at the convention, thats how.
Its a set up. Are they hoping he will decide to step down, or be sat on by spineless hierarchies?
-------------------- Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
MM, Michael Hopkins, the president of Integrity, has been quoted in the press as saying that neither he nor his organization believes that the allegations are a "set-up."
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Merseymike: Because I'm getting regular emails from a number of people at the convention, thats how.
Its a set up. Are they hoping he will decide to step down, or be sat on by spineless hierarchies?
You have secret spies in the convention who are telling you that the evangelicals have banded together to make some man in Vermont write to his bishop about this?
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
That isn't everyone's view, however.
-------------------- Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
No, I didn't say a conspiracy ! But there have been people going round saying that the opposition had 'something up their sleeve'.
It seems a little too close to the final vote to be completely coincidental, particularly given the almost certain outcome of the vote.
Do I trust these people ? You must be kidding. [ 04. August 2003, 23:10: Message edited by: Merseymike ]
-------------------- Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, then, how on earth is this a set up?
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Merseymike: Because I'm getting regular emails from a number of people at the convention, thats how.
Who already know the results of the investigation and know the accuser? You really shouldn't rely on e-mails from emotionally charged sources.
-------------------- I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Merseymike: No, I didn't say a conspiracy !
Well that is how your earlier post read. I guess you need to think before you post.
-------------------- I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
The background checks on all possible candidates are quite detailed ; of course not infallible - but don't you think this looks just a tiny bit suspicious?
-------------------- Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
MM, it's not a conspiracy but a set-up? I don't get it. What's the diff?
And what definition of Evangelicals are you using? The "He's Not.Our.Kind.Dear" crowd I know of who oppose him aren't what we hereabouts think of as evangelical.
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
If I were someone in the church trying to prevent someone's appointment, I would make a weak allegation early on so that the mud sticks. Doing it now is a weak move because you will be found out and you lose all moral credibility making people more determined to appoint the man they want.
For me there are three possibilities. 1) It is genuine. 2) It someone's personal vendetta against Gene Robinson for what ever reason. 3) A group inside the church are doing it and don't see how silly it is.
Personally, I go for 2 because making the allegation now guarantees the most publicity.
-------------------- I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Eanswyth ; suggest you look at where the opposition to Gene Robinson is coming from in the ECUSA. Overwhelmingly from evangelicals and some conservative Anglo-Catholics. Thats what I'm referring to.
We will have to await the outcome.
-------------------- Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
You still haven't explained how this is a set up.
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I think its been carefully done to try and derail the appointment by someone/people with that aim. Thats all I meant ; sorry if the wording suggested more
-------------------- Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
Merseymike,
I really don't think it's a good idea to throw around blanket accusations of schemes and plots in the absence of any evidence. By doing so, you imply - before there's even been a proper investigation - that the alleged victim of this sexual harrassment is a liar.
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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St. Cuervo
Son of a Son of a Sailor
# 4725
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hooker's Trick: quote: Originally posted by Merseymike: I don't think Anglican evangelicals could have fallen much further in my estimation, but here we find them scrabbling around in their sewer again.
How do you know it was evangelicals?
There are two charges at play here. The "evangelicals" seem to have some involvement with the pornography charge. David Virtue (a self-avowed evangelical) posted the allegation on his website at about 4:00 AM (I posted it on SoF around 11:00 AM) and, surprise, surprise, guess what comes up for discussion today?
We'll have to see whether the pornography charge gets legs. I don't think it will. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I couldn't find anything that remotely looks like "hard core porn" on that site (although I did find the polyamory link troubling). There also seems to be a question at play of how Cannon Robinson is affiliated with the web-site. Virtue makes it sound like he runs the group (ah, inquiring minds want to know, but does he do the web-site?) but I have seen other reports stressing that he was only "affiliated" with the group.
My prediction: the porno charge will go nowhere.
Now the "touching" charge is a little different. Obviously the traditionalists are pleased that something has come up to slow down this process but, as of yet, I haven't seen any evidence that they are promoting the charge or, ultimately behind it. (Although maybe Mike can report on what his spies are telling him...) Whether the charge is, ultimately, upheld or not, I am sure, as others have observed, that it was timed to have maximal publicity. One report I saw stated that the accusor had e-mailed his bishop on August 1 with the allegations and so this has been brweing for a couple of days at least.
No predictions on the "touching" accusation. There's no politics like church politics, let me tell you...
Still watching from the sidelines,
-------------------- I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked... angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night...
Posts: 295 | From: Falls Church, VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
On the positive side, the anchor on ABC led into the story by calling ECUSA "one of the largest denominations in the United States".
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
That's cause cool counts triple.
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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Marama
Shipmate
# 330
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Posted
I'm afraid my nasty suspicious mind had much the same reaction as some other posters - this looks like a set-up. But then I've seen during the UCA's debates last week that church politics can get remarkably dirty. I still remember the shock - a good many years ago now - at the first quite deliberate lie I encountered used in church politics. It hasn't been the last. We're all fallen humans - and we want our own way, dress it up with 'holy words' as we will.
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
"Cool counts triple?"
{snark}
It's been a long time since ECUSA was "cool"--if ever. In the past, the church has been influential beyond its numbers because of its inroads into the Eastern Establishment. One presumes that was because Eastern Episcopalians knew how to find the Fish Fork at a formal dinner. That alone counts for Inspiration of the Holy Ghost in some circles. This probably is the reason ABC got the numbers wrong.
Regardless of where one stands on the issues swirling around this election, this situation is a tragedy of Greek proportions. Would that the standing committee of New Hampshire had counted up the days before General Convention and held the election either 3 months and one day before (or the day after). That way, Standing Committees of individual dioceses would have had to assent to the election instead of the friggin' General Convention itself.
So sad.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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St. Cuervo
Son of a Son of a Sailor
# 4725
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by tomb: Regardless of where one stands on the issues swirling around this election, this situation is a tragedy of Greek proportions. Would that the standing committee of New Hampshire had counted up the days before General Convention and held the election either 3 months and one day before (or the day after). That way, Standing Committees of individual dioceses would have had to assent to the election instead of the friggin' General Convention itself.
So sad.
I thought about this too when I first started reading about Canon Robinson's election. A vote one day earlier would have made all the difference...
On the other hand, I am not quite ready to agree that it is "sad." After all, "... we know that God causes all things to work together for good..." (Rom. 8:28). So, as much as I hate seeing the dirty laundry of the Church aired in public like this (a friend once asked me, "what is your church's hang-up with gay sex?"), I have to believe (for I am a good Calvinist) that God has some reason in allowing these things to come to pass in the manner that they have. It might be days or centuries before we know why, but I have faith that God is good and that He is in control and that, ultimately, as St. Paul affirms, things will work out for the good.
No matter what the ECUSA decides at its General Convention.
Peace,
St. C. [ 05. August 2003, 00:42: Message edited by: St. Cuervo ]
-------------------- I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked... angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night...
Posts: 295 | From: Falls Church, VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
It is sad because people will be hurt no matter what. Faithful people on both sides of the issues. It is sad because people will decide to leave regardless of what happens. It is sad because we have become so polarized. I used the word "tragedy" advisedly, and I was thinking of Aristotle when I did so.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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St. Cuervo
Son of a Son of a Sailor
# 4725
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by tomb: It is sad because people will be hurt no matter what. Faithful people on both sides of the issues. It is sad because people will decide to leave regardless of what happens. It is sad because we have become so polarized....
Amen.
I remember my mom telling me when I was a kid, "when everyone gets to heaven, God is going to dry all of our tears." I wasn't being cheeky but I said, "well God must have a pretty big hankie then..."
I do believe that Christ weeps for his Church sometimes. And I think this must be one of those times. Maybe its the fundie in me (I was raised to be "rapture ready"), but part of me really wants Him to come back soon and teach us how to play nice with each other.
Peace,
St. C.
-------------------- I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked... angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night...
Posts: 295 | From: Falls Church, VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re the alleged porn:
Go to Outright.org and click on "News Release". It answers the allegations.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
This whole thing is just ridiculous; out-of-town vangies rolled in to pledge loyalty to African bishops, if you please, if we elect an officially gay bishop, folks like MM calling joyfully for schism. It makes me sick. I don't know which "side" I'd be on in a schism, either -- my orthodoxy and detestation of attempts to modernise the BCP make me unsuited to the Unitarian branch of the ECUSA; general protestantism make me unsuited to the more Romish/conservative side. [ 05. August 2003, 02:08: Message edited by: Laura ]
-------------------- Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Laura: my orthodoxy and detestation of attempts to modernise the BCP make me unsuited to the Unitarian branch of the ECUSA; general protestantism make me unsuited to the more Romish/conservative side.
But it doesn't cut up this neatly. I can think of a lot of "Romish" folks who aren't conservative.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I firmly believe that anyone, no matter what "side" they're on, who WANTS a schism should have the integrity to leave themselves.
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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