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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: New Hampshire gay bishop
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HoosierNan
Shipmate
# 91
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Posted
quote:
Come now; they're not going to become Lutherans. Think of all the molded jell-o puddings with suspended carrots and pineapples. *shiver*.
Too true!!!!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 795 | From: Indiana, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
even if there is a schism, its not the end of the world or even the church. the methodist church schismed over slavery, you know, but eventually the southern part came to their senses, and we got back together.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Oh, come on, David. These are Episcopalians we're talking about here. They worship their buildings.
We've discussed this. They worship their pipe organs, choirs, and music program, in that order. This is an heretical distortion similar to the filioque. If they would worship their choirs above all else, and would give their choirs veto power over their vestries, I might also be enticed back.
In fact, my first act will be to merge the New Hampshire synod of Worldwide Anglicanism with Unitarians and Quakers and we will worship Chorovaya Akademia in our new denomination, Orthodox Angliquarianism.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
They've been threatening and/or predicting that for days.
That they would become Lutherans and eat jello or go outside to a Lutheran chapel and pray?
Sorry bout that. Laura inserted that comment between Chast's comment & my reply.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
OK, then, Jim. You be Archbishop. But you will need a Primate for England....
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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fatprophet
Shipmate
# 3636
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Posted
It seems to me that if there is a division of opinion on an issue in the church then the status quo should prevail until there is something approaching consensus. Frankly ECUSA shouldn't be
electing someone who is so controversial as a bishop because a bishop must have the confidence of - as far as possible - the whole flock. It is irrelevant why some people are against him, the mere fact that his appointment is likely to cause huge schism should give pause for thought about the historical and pastoral role of bishops in the christian church rather than using an appointment for political point scoring.
That said, the Anglican Communion is now so theologically diverse it has already gone the way of the Holy Roman Empire (famously neither Holy, Roman or an Empire in the end)
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FAT PROPHET
Posts: 530 | From: Wales, UK | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
fatprophet, the Standing Committee of his flock (the Diocese of New Hampshire) has already seen fit to elect him to the office. It's other people's flocks that have their butts in an uproar over this.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Sauerkraut
Shipmate
# 3112
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Come now; they're not going to become Lutherans. Think of all the molded jell-o puddings with suspended carrots and pineapples. *shiver*.
You might be a Lutheran if...
...you only serve Jell-O in the proper liturgical color for the season.
...peas in your tuna noodle hotdish add too much color.
...you have more than five flavors of Jell-O in your pantry.
...you think anyone who says "casserole" instead of "hotdish" is trying to be uppity (or maybe even Episcopalian!)
...you think the term "Jell-O salad" is redundant.
...your church library has three Jell-O cookbooks.
...you think the four food groups are coffee, lefse, lutefisk, and Jell-O.
...you sign a petition to have Campbell Soup Co. rename its "Cream of Mushroom soup" "Lutheran Binder!"
...you think lime Jell-O with cottage cheese and pineapple is a gourmet salad.
...you make your hotdishes with cream of mushroom soup and your salads with Jell-O.
...you serve Jell-O as a vegetable.
This is what they all have to look forward to. HoosierNan will confirm that each one of these items on this list is most certainly true. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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We want not an amalgam or compromise, but both things at the top of their energy; love and wrath both burning. Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites, by keeping them both, and keeping them both furious.--G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 196 | From: The middle of the US | Registered: Jul 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
They've been threatening and/or predicting that for days.
That they would become Lutherans and eat jello or go outside to a Lutheran chapel and pray?
Sorry bout that. Laura inserted that comment between Chast's comment & my reply.
But thanks, Tomb, for giving me my best laugh today. The mental picture of +Jensen et al threatening to stomp off and eat Jello... lovely.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Iakovos
Shipmate
# 623
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Posted
The BBC is reporting on a banner on their web site that Robinson has been elected the first non-celibate gay bishop. They say more info to follow.
Posts: 61 | From: Ossining, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
and
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Iakovos:
The BBC is reporting on a banner on their web site that Robinson has been elected the first non-celibate gay bishop. They say more info to follow.
I think as of the moment 00.10 you might be a bit previous. It's not on the ticker that I can see and nothing on Google news - the BBC site says
quote:
Episcopalian leaders are set to ratify the controversial election of the US Anglican Church's first openly gay, non-celibate bishop, after clearing him of misconduct.
which could have caused some confusion. It reports that the vote is still not due for a few hours.
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Louise, I saw it on the ticker. But now it's gone.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Iakovos
Shipmate
# 623
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Posted
It does seem to have dissappeared now....I *DID* see it on the scrolling banner at the top followed by "More Soon". I do not see it elsewhere either.....I hope it was not a mistake....
Posts: 61 | From: Ossining, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
The results are due by the top of the hour. They were supposed to be ready at 6p EDT, but the debate delayed the start of the vote.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I thought it was going to be 6 pm Minneapolis (Central) time, based in someone's calculations earlier on this thread. Though if they only end up an hour behind, they're probably doing well.
I wonder what's going on over at the BBC.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Elizabeth Anne
Altar Girl
# 3555
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Posted
He has been confirmed!
Any links yet?
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Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in my eyes...
Posts: 974 | From: New York | Registered: Nov 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
NPR just reported that they voted yes: 62-45.
[get the number right!]
[ 06. August 2003, 00:05: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Fantastic news! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Were that the Church of England as courageous. But this is a great day!
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Iakovos
Shipmate
# 623
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Posted
Links:
CNN
BBC
+ Doxa tou Theou
[ 06. August 2003, 00:14: Message edited by: Iakovos ]
Posts: 61 | From: Ossining, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jerry Boam
Shipmate
# 4551
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Posted
LINK
God, in whom we live and move and have our being, be praised!
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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
Posts: 2165 | From: Miskatonic University | Registered: May 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Hallelujah.
Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to do when the Diocese of Florida withdraws from the ECUSA.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Have they said for sure that they will do that? Can they do that?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Yahoo! I think.
Surely an entire diocese can't withdraw. Does anybody know?
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
As soon as +Jecko got into St Johns he began a systematic elimination of all the homos in the diocese. He was a signatory to the "pastoral letter" that came from the other primates on the eve of the GC. Has he said it? No, but I've heard the buzz that he's not going to tolerate this.
At any rate, the dissenting bishops will be meeting in Dallas (I think) in October to decide where they go from here. I would not be surprised if they sought to be joined to the provinces who expressed their opposition to BISHOP ( ) Robinson.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I think that probably will happen, but they don't have any way of taking all their churches with them, unless they all choose to do so. And that is unlikely.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
If my memory serves me well (and I am correctible), most ECUSA dioceses are legally chartered under the laws of local states, and a decision taken by a diocesan convention to leave ECUSA might well hold, depending on the wording of their registration/ charter/ private law.
With very very few exceptions, ECUSA parishes are not independent legal entities in their own right, but are part of the diocese, and their title deeds are normally held by the diocese. It is not impossible that a state court might hold uphold General Conventionophile parishes' claims to property in departing dioceses... I fear that many lawyers will do very well out of this.
Many ECUSA dioceses were formed by congregations gathering and establishing themselves as dioceses at founding conventions; others were formed by resolution of General Convention. I understand that Hawai'i, originally created by King Kamehameha V and Queen Emma as a Missionary Diocese, is an exception, but that may not be germane to this discussion.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
By Erin Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to do when the Diocese of Florida withdraws from the ECUSA.
Head North.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Not what I wanted to hear, but thanks, Augustine.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
by ATA: It is not impossible that a state court might hold uphold General Conventionophile parishes' claims to property in departing dioceses... I fear that many lawyers will do very well out of this.
There have been two recent ones that I know of around these parts. One parish just cut out and joined the AMiA, giving up their property and endowment if I remember correctly. Another has been in a protracted fight to hold on to their building, and I'm guessing their money. I think that one has made its way into the courts. It's a historically significant building, but in one of the absolute scariest parts of a scary section of North Philadelphia.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:
By Erin Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to do when the Diocese of Florida withdraws from the ECUSA.
Head North.
If I leave Florida it's for a militia-style bunker in Montana, where there are no day time speed limits.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Razorbacker
Apprentice
# 4814
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Posted
Parish property is held in trust for BOTH the ECUSA AND the diocese -- a "departing diocese" not only couldn't take a liberal church's property away, it can' take its own cathedral. See Canon 7.4.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Aug 2003
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
Te Deum lauda a a mur
Te Dominum confite e e mur.
:-)
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Razorbacker:
Parish property is held in trust for BOTH the ECUSA AND the diocese -- a "departing diocese" not only couldn't take a liberal church's property away, it can' take its own cathedral. See Canon 7.4.
Which Title, Razorbacker? I have my trusty ECUSA Constitutions & Canons in front of me, but you didn't give me enough information to reference it. Are you referencing your diocesan canons? That's a different matter entirely.
In fact, most dioceses (if not all; I'm not sure on this point) are established non-profit corporations who affiliate with ECUSA in their own diocesan constitution and canons. These diocesan canons (presumably) invariably claim all pariochial property within their diocesan jurisdiction.
On the other hand, ECUSA makes no claims about the property of dioceses, let alone parishes, in its canons. I assume that most dioceses, like my own, note in their constitution that they are a part of the Episcopal Church in the United States of America (or the "Protestant Episcopal Church etc. depending on when their constitution was last revised). But to change the constitution of a diocese only requires two consecutive votes of a diocesan convention, and ECUSA can't do squat if that's the way the wind blows.
So let's say that +Jecko (for the sake of argument) persuades his Standing Committee to put forth a resolution at the Diocesan Convention of Erin's diocese to, say, delete from the Constitution and Canons of +Florida any reference to ECUSA. And let's say that it passes on a divided vote of clergy and laity delegates. Then, the next year (assuming that +Florida convenes annually, which is usual) the same thing happens. At that point of time, +Florida is no longer affiliated with ECUSA--in word, if not in deed.
But is it still a diocese in the Anglican Communion?
Not surprisingly, the Constitution & Canons of ECUSA deal in great detail with the circumstances in which dioceses can be admitted to a province; can transfer their (ECUSA) provincial affiliation; merge with another diocese; divide into two or more dioceses. But NOWHERE in the constitution and canons of the Episcopal Church is there any entertainment of the notion that a pissed-off diocese diocese can leave ECUSA, let alone the Anglican Communion.
Just for grins, here is a quotation from the preamble to the consitution of ECUSA:
quote:
The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, otherwise known as The Episcopal Church (which name is hereby recognized as also designating the Church), is a constitutent member of the Anglican Communion, a Fellowship within the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, of those duly constituted Dioceses, Provinces, and regional Churches in communion with the See of Canterbury....
The upshot of this is, that ECUSA is in "communion" with Canterbury, but no mention is made of the other provinces and dioceses in communion w/ +Cantaru. So, by definition, poor ++Rowan may find himself dealing with a bunch of cousins who aren't speaking to one another.
Some possibilities:
ITEM: ECUSA dioceses may remove themselves from ECUSA by amending their constitutions, but lay claim to "communion" with Canterbury.
This is different from the actions of so-called "continuing" Anglican bodies who leave the Episcopal church but can't get ++Rowen to return their calls. If an entire diocese leaves, then presumably there is no Anglican ecclesiastical authority to oversee that part of the world, so ++Rowan would be free to recognize them (though I doubt he would; he's not stupid).
ECUSA would be free to establish a new "missionary" diocese.
{snark}
ITEM: Some group, presumably the Anglican Mission in America (AMiA), which consists of a rudimentary ecclesiastical authority established by the Archbishop of Rwanda and the Archbishop of Singapore, may lay claim to Ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the dioceses of ECUSA. This is really an absurd speculation, because the AMiA bishops and priests really burned their bridges with an "Eat Shit And Die" manifesto when they left, and I can't imagine ++Rowan conferring on them any legitimacy.
But stranger things have happened.
Maybe it's time to go off and annoy some other "faith group".
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Razorbacker
Apprentice
# 4814
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Posted
Sorry -- Title 1, Canon 7.4, a/k/a Dennis Canon:
All real and personal property held by or for the benefit of any Parish, Mission or Congregation is held in trust for this Church and the Diocese thereof in which such Parish, Mission or Congregation is located. The existence of this trust, however, shall in no way limit the power and authority of the Parish, Mission or Congregation otherwise existing over such property so long as the particular Parish, Mission or Congregation remains a part of, and subject to, this Church and its Constitution and Canons.
"This Church" being, of course, the ECUSA. Don't understand the relevance of state charters -- what counts is state trust law. My understanding is that prior case law has generally found 7.4 to create a valid trust. Granted, it's been the diocese attempting to enforce against a departing parish, but that really doesn't matter -- if the trust created by 7.4 is good in favor of one beneficiary (diocese), should be good in favor of the other, shouldn't it?
Posts: 4 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Amazing Grace*
Shipmate
# 4754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Hallelujah.
Amen and thank you Jesus.
quote:
Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to do when the Diocese of Florida withdraws from the ECUSA.
I don't have that problem here in the Diocese of California (which has shrunk from the whole state to SF and its immediately adjoining counties) but El Camino Real just south of here is one of the ones talked about as possibly leaving.
And the super-activists in this diocese thought +Swing (who looks a lot like +Robinson - I thought the picture was him at first, actually) was bad once upon a time because he didn't approve of gay marriage ceremonies ...
Lord, have mercy on us, and fill us with Your love during this time of transition and strife.
Charlotte (aka Amazing Grace)
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.sig on vacation
Posts: 2594 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Razorbacker, I quite agree, but a very pertinent part of my post is "depending on the wording of their registration/ charter/ private law" in each particular state for, as the US Constitution provides, they are sovereign in areas of trusts, property etc.
In some states, dioceses are constituted by private acts of the legislature; others are regulated by general public law governing religious bodies and/ or charitable trusts. In other words, there may be cases where the specifics may matter more than the general principles you described. Anyone who goes to law needs to be prepared for results which may not be agreeable to them.
I suspect that there will only be serious attempts for dioceses to opt out in a few instances (if any), so this will lessen our analyses to three or four or five states. Much will depend on how things are handled in the next few weeks.
O... and to complicate things, ECUSA has a number of dioceses outside the United States.... and there are a substantial number of independent trusts and foundations connected with ECUSA throughout the US.
I'm beginning to have a headache.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Razorbacker:
Sorry -- Title 1, Canon 7.4, a/k/a Dennis Canon:
All real and personal property held by or for the benefit of any Parish, Mission or Congregation is held in trust for this Church and the Diocese thereof in which such Parish, Mission or Congregation is located. The existence of this trust, however, shall in no way limit the power and authority of the Parish, Mission or Congregation otherwise existing over such property so long as the particular Parish, Mission or Congregation remains a part of, and subject to, this Church and its Constitution and Canons.
"This Church" being, of course, the ECUSA. Don't understand the relevance of state charters -- what counts is state trust law. My understanding is that prior case law has generally found 7.4 to create a valid trust. Granted, it's been the diocese attempting to enforce against a departing parish, but that really doesn't matter -- if the trust created by 7.4 is good in favor of one beneficiary (diocese), should be good in favor of the other, shouldn't it?
No, it shouldn't.
Your quotation, RB, only goes so far as the diocese, not the national church. As far as the law is concerned, your quotation of I,7.4, which mentions "this Church and the Diocese thereof" can't possibly go further than the diocese. There is NO ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITY recognized in common law past the diocese in the United States. There is, of course, in the Canons (though even that is vague), but when it comes to property, the buck stops with the diocese.
Several dioceses have recovered property from disaffected congregations through several means (mine being one of them). But there has NEVER been anything remotely approaching a decided opinion should a diocese choose to leave a province. It's just never happened before. I suspect that the last time anything like this happenend, the parties told each other they were going to hell and excommunicated each other and sent in the troops. The Lutherans might be able to inform you more about those developments; they frankly bore me.
And furthermore, your arguments about "trust" are specious. They have been discounted by the courts in multiple venues. Why are you bringing them up here.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Razorbacker:
Sorry -- Title 1, Canon 7.4, a/k/a Dennis Canon:
All real and personal property held by or for the benefit of any Parish, Mission or Congregation is held in trust for this Church and the Diocese thereof ... "This Church" being, of course, the ECUSA. ....
Balderdash. "This Church" being quite clearly the "diocese thereof" of the Church--i.e. ECUSA. You can't create a trust where one doesn't exist, and no trust accrues for any diocese of ECUSA to its corporate body. indeed, there ISN'T a corporate body of ECUSA recognized in law. Check your facts here. ECUSA isn't incorporated (except, perhaps, in the eyes of Our Lord). The diocese has always been the corporate body for the Church.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
I was feeling sick and didn't go to church Sunday, now I am a little nervous about what will have happened before I get back, since I won't be there next Sunday either. It's a small parish, and mostly older people, so I really don't know how they feel about this issue. I hope we don't lose even more members than we already have.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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calpurnia
Apprentice
# 4816
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Posted
I'm a little late to the party as a newbie on the boards, but I've got to say that I'm more than a little dismayed by the appointment of Robinson as Bishop.
I believe that rather than check the Anglican/Episcopal rule book, perhaps a check of the Bible might be more appropriate.
The Bible makes it very clear its views on homosexuality, more obviously in the Old Testament.
So, what about the New? The role of the priest/minister/pastor/'insert the name of your prefered title here' is to lead the church (body of believers) closer to God by teaching and encouraging to understand His role for our lives and His desire to forge a reconciliation between imperfect man and perfect Diety.
So important is this role that Paul describes Christ's love for the church as that of a husband for his wife.
Question - Is Robinson a suitable representative for this role when he:
a. Breaks his vow to his (now ex-)wife and to God (Oh, yeah God, I didn't really mean forever, Amen)
b. Unable to understand or identify with the complex and most powerful relationship between a man and a woman and how it relates to God's relationship with the church.
c. Is part of a culture which encourages promiscuity, lack of commitment and whose political agenda is to mock the values of others.
PS - does his ordination bring a new dimension to the term "Glory Hole"
Posts: 4 | From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2003
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
[...] but El Camino Real just south of here is one of the ones talked about as possibly leaving.
ECR? I don't think they're likely to leave. +Dick Schimpfky is quite liberal and my sense is that the diocese is as well.
I think you're thinking of San Joaquin. +John-David Schofield is one of the three bishops in ECUSA who still doesn't ordain women, and my understanding is that that diocese is overall very conservative.
(For those from other countries or areas, El Camino Real runs down the California coast from San Jose to about San Luis Obispo(?); San Joaquin is the southern portion of the Central Valley from about Tracy to Bakersfield. The biggest political and social divide in this state is between the coast regions on the one hand and the much more conservative Valley and Sierras on the other. This IMO.)
[I don't mean to make this sound like a quibble, AG. I think it's important in times like this to be as accurate as we can be.]
basso
Posts: 4358 | From: Bay Area, Calif | Registered: Mar 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If I leave Florida it's for a militia-style bunker in Montana, where there are no day time speed limits.
And the lack of speed limits would be important in a bunker, would it? You're afraid of being ticketed for sliding your boxes of rations too quickly from one end of the bunker to the other?
Come to California, Erin. You could run for governor. Everyone else is.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Iakovos:
Here is a link to Bishop Scruton's report
on the investigation:
Investigation Report
It would probably have taken the CofE six months to complete that investigation. 51st State soon, please.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Hello, Calpurnia, welcome.
But I disagree.
quote:
Question - Is Robinson a suitable representative for this role when he:
a. Breaks his vow to his (now ex-)wife and to God (Oh, yeah God, I didn't really mean forever, Amen)
There are a number of bishops in the Anglican Communion who are divorced and quite a few priests.
quote:
b. Unable to understand or identify with the complex and most powerful relationship between a man and a woman and how it relates to God's relationship with the church.
Do you have to have sex with women (or fantasize about it) to understand the metaphor? Wouldn't
the celebate bishops of the Roman or Orthodox traditions have the same problem?
quote:
c. Is part of a culture which encourages promiscuity, lack of commitment and whose political agenda is to mock the values of others.
Is the culture you refer to homosexual culture? Their "culture" is as wide in attitude and life-style as the heterosexual one. There are people who are permiscuous and intend to stay that way, people who sow their wild oats then learn that deep and loving is better, and some who see clearly that loving commitment fulfills the soul. As one fellow parishioner said of his partnership of twenty years, he has had a longer *marriage* than anyone else in his family.
As to those "whose political agenda is to mock the values of others", I think that's exactly what homophobic conservatives have done and continue to do to their gay brothers and sisters in Christ and to those who have their back.
[ 06. August 2003, 07:22: Message edited by: Lyda Rose of Sharon ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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auntbeast
Shipmate
# 377
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Posted
Ok I was going to stay out of this one, being tired of the whole thing, not to mention very happy with the decision our Diocese (New Westminster) has taken on the blessing issue. (So far no issue of the orientation of our bishop and no election of a new one predicted soon)... however I really must make comment and ask clarification from our new member Calpurnia...
1) If you want to get into the homosexuality right/wrong issue, trundle off to dead horses. I am sure that this spate of news on the issue has got the flogging a raging over there.
2) Are you then saying that straight divorced persons and straight unmarried persons or more to the point celibate persons are not suitable to be bishop?
3) You refer to "Is part of a culture which encourages promiscuity, lack of commitment and whose political agenda is to mock the values of others." Are you referring the modern American culture? The heterosexually driven media culture? a particular ethnic group that he is a member of? Or maybe fundamentalist hateful Christian culture (although I find it hard to see him as part of this last one).
Enquiring minds want to know.
Auntbeast (who normally resides in hell and hopes this post is not too hellish for purgatory)
P.S. cross posted with Lyda Rose of Sharon... basically "what Lyda said". Cheers.
[ 06. August 2003, 07:41: Message edited by: auntbeast ]
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"My vices are the children of a forced solitude that I abhor; and my virtues will necessarily arise when I live in communion with an equal" - Mary Shelley (Frankenstein)
Posts: 820 | From: Vancouver, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Right - now that our American cousins have lead the way (well done, guys!), can we put JJ back in the frame for Reading?
After all - now we can't be blamed for the resulting schism!!
Yours aye ... (an increasingly cynical)TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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