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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: The Product-Driven Lifeless Cash Monkeys
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
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quote:
Originally posted by Anastasia Pivka:
In the same category, but possibly worse is the "Prayer of Jabez" (TM) book and associated crap that goes with it. I say worse, because this book is a total pile of rubbish, stands up to no decent critique and they have a whole armery of marketing aimed at young people. Ggggrr. Don't go praying on young people who might be reletively new to the faith and are easily impressed. The book and associated merchanidising costs a fortune and is no good what so ever.

Never have I seen a marketing ploy based on a couple of verses taken out of context. It scares me to be honest that there are christians who seriously think these are good books and merchandise to buy.

Christian marketing. Hate it.

(How about we start a series of books about how Jesus threw people out of the temple for marketing in the church. We could sell them in Wesley Owens, Church book stores and on Youth weekends away)

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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
(How about we start a series of books about how Jesus threw people out of the temple for marketing in the church. We could sell them in Wesley Owens, Church book stores and on Youth weekends away)

Only if you split the proceeds with me [Biased] [Snigger]

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:


Christian marketing. Hate it.


Write a book - but don't market it. No, that would be wrong.

Who is their target audience? Christians.
Where can you find many of those? Associated with churches.
Where should you target your marketing? Churches.

Does being a Christian mean you have to burn your business credentials?

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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RooK

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# 1852

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Perhaps some fools thought to elevate churches and christianity above materialistic capitalism. How naive.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
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quote:
Originally posted by Sharkov:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:


Christian marketing. Hate it.


Write a book - but don't market it. No, that would be wrong.

Who is their target audience? Christians.
Where can you find many of those? Associated with churches.
Where should you target your marketing? Churches.

Does being a Christian mean you have to burn your business credentials?

Probably didn't make myself all that clear. I meant that I hate it when Christians market their stuff as life-changing, life-altering etcetc. When they play on your emotions and try and make money out of the fact that you are a pathetic little christian and they know all the answers on how I can become a 'good christian boy'.

I know that this is not just a christian problem - but I do find the capatialistic market in christian cirlse a bit much. But hey - with my avatar what do you really expect...

Tom

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Perhaps some fools thought to elevate churches and christianity above materialistic capitalism. How naive.

Some Christians are capitalists. Get over it.

If I think I have a good product, I should market it. If I don't market it, or ignore the primary market for it, because it is a Christian item, I am the fool.

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
I meant that I hate it when Christians market their stuff as life-changing, life-altering etcetc.

I assume, then, that you object to the marketing of all self-help books - religious or not.

People have the choice to not buy the book, if they don't want to.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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quote:
Originally posted by Sharkov:
I assume, then, that you object to the marketing of all self-help books - religious or not.

People have the choice to not buy the book, if they don't want to.

Yes. But sometimes the advertising is laid on rather heavily. Especially when it is aimed at young christians who might be naive and immpressionable, especially when faced with something that will change their life...

That is what I am objecting to. Not marketing per se, but marketing aimed at making as much money as possible out of people who do not know better. That, to me, is a decidedly dodgy way of selling christian books.

Tom

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Get over it? Sharkshooter, perhaps your sarcasm sensor is too easily triggered. Living in a capitalistic society means people try to sell you things, regardless of what religion you are, or how tasteful you wish it were.
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Sheriff Pony
Shipmate
# 3911

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I think what's being lost in the discussion shuffle here is how churches themselves become part of the marketing strategy: Pastors recommending the book from the pulpit; churches sponsoring "Purpose-Driven Life" studies in which every participant must buy a copy of the book (and is encouraged to buy the accompanying study guide, plus the accompanying personal journal), . . . that sort of thing. It's word-of-mouth advertising, but with the force of spiritual authority behind it. Very dodgy.

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If we're all going to hell in a handbasket, can't we at least have a nicer handbasket?

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
Not marketing per se, but marketing aimed at making as much money as possible out of people who do not know better. That, to me, is a decidedly dodgy way of selling christian books.


That is a dodgy way to market anything. But 65-70% [Biased] of all marketing is directed at such people - i.e. kids, etc.

Start ranting about how many children's shows have the primary purpose of selling toys; how many commercials are geared to kids so that they will market the junk to the parents. This is much more manipulative than marketing a Christian book to Christians - most of whom are adults and can make up their own minds and spend their own money.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Sheriff Pony
Shipmate
# 3911

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quote:
Originally posted by Sharkov:
Start ranting about how many children's shows have the primary purpose of selling toys; . . .

Ah, but then we'd be here for months.

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If we're all going to hell in a handbasket, can't we at least have a nicer handbasket?

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Annie P

Ship's galley maid
# 3453

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quote:
Originally posted by Sharkov:

If I think I have a good product, I should market it.

See that's the problem I have with Prayer of Jabez, and some of the Perpose Driven stuff, is that it is not good, but a load of dressed up drivel, which deserves very little marketing.

Market good books, the Bible, books with decent exegesis or self help books. But don't waste money promoting material which does little more than line someone's pocket with cash they don't deserve.

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Posts: 3248 | From: stockton-on-tees | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
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quote:
Originally posted by Sharkov:
Start ranting about how many children's shows have the primary purpose of selling toys; how many commercials are geared to kids so that they will market the junk to the parents. This is much more manipulative than marketing a Christian book to Christians - most of whom are adults and can make up their own minds and spend their own money.

I think telling people that they will be better people, better christians and closer to God by reading one book is also rather maipulative. And this thread isn't about ranting about other commercials and markets is it, and as christians we are meant to set an example - not lead the way in manipulative marketing...

tom

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
I think telling people that they will be better people, better christians and closer to God by reading one book is also rather maipulative

Like the Bible?

quote:
Originally posted by Anastasia Pivka:
See that's the problem I have with Prayer of Jabez, and some of the Perpose Driven stuff, is that it is not good, but a load of dressed up drivel, which deserves very little marketing.

In your opinion. Others have different opinions, and some of them are also valid.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think this book is for everyone. I think people should use their brain and read the back cover, the index, etc. and try to find out if it is for them before they buy it. I just got a bit heated by everyone saying it is useless. Sorry.

It was suggested that our church join this program this past winter. I was one of the ones who said "Wait a minute. Let's see if it is right for the church, for a particular group, or not at all before we endorse it, not to mention encourage it."

If you are into personal daily devotions, perhaps it is a good thing. Besides, you always need material, and in 40 days you will move on to something else, hopefully haveing gained something from it.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Annie P

Ship's galley maid
# 3453

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quote:
Originally posted by Sharkov:

quote:
Originally posted by Anastasia Pivka:
See that's the problem I have with Prayer of Jabez, and some of the Perpose Driven stuff, is that it is not good, but a load of dressed up drivel, which deserves very little marketing.

In your opinion. Others have different opinions, and some of them are also valid.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think this book is for everyone.

I never said it was.
quote:
I think people should use their brain and read the back cover, the index, etc. and try to find out if it is for them before they buy it. I just got a bit heated by everyone saying it is useless. Sorry.
I did read the back cover, and thought twice about buying it.
If you read my posts I also said that I know several people who got a lot out of the book, so I am not rubbishing the book though personally I found it a bit trite in places. I also said that I liked the Purpose Driven Youth Ministry Book. The book which I do think is a pile of crap is The Prayer of Jabez, and I would heartily recommend you not buying that for love or money. (IMHO)

quote:

It was suggested that our church join this program this past winter. I was one of the ones who said "Wait a minute. Let's see if it is right for the church, for a particular group, or not at all before we endorse it, not to mention encourage it."

Good, and so you should. I was trying to say that the only reason I bought the book was because everyone else in the church was encouraged to buy it. In fact you felt quite left out if you did not buy the book, as the whole of the lent services and house groups were based around it. If it had been left to me, without the helpful suggestion of my minister, there would not be a half read copy sat on a bookshelf in my lounge.

quote:
If you are into personal daily devotions, perhaps it is a good thing. Besides, you always need material, and in 40 days you will move on to something else, hopefully haveing gained something from it.
True. This was not the case for me.

What I object to is the peer pressure marketing from the organisations behind these books. They sell it as a good idea to church leaders, who push it to their congregations. It feels like an abuse of trust, like someone selling me something I don't really want or need at the time. However, I still feel obliged to buy.

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Posts: 3248 | From: stockton-on-tees | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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These "this book will turn you into a combination of Superman, Socrates and Jesus Christ" books have been coming out for years. In the CU (shudder) there was always one of these that was the current "must have".

They were nearly always crap.

What I can't work out is why there are enough sheep in the church to make marketting this bullshit worthwhile.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Captain Caveman
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# 3980

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[tangent]

Originally posted by ken:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
The thing that most annoyed me, which probably does nothing more than show what a joyless pedant I am, was in one place he says something like: 'Your genes can combine in infinitely many different ways. There are 24 000 000 possible combinations.'

Look up 'infinite' in your dictionary, you don't need a degree in maths to work it out.

Nonsense like that makes me very suspicious of a writer or speaker. If they talk crap about stuff I do know about, I tend to assume they talk crap about stuff I don't know about. Where does " 24 000 000" come from? That's not a very big number when you are talking about combinations. You get more possibilites than that from a pack of cards.
I fear I must apologise for misrepresenting Rick Warren's degree of accuracy. Having checked what he actually wrote (as opposed to what I thought he might have written) he used the figure 10 to the power 2 400 000 000, which is somewhat larger than the 2 400 000 I quoted. I'm not a biologist but it sounds more like the kind of number that ken is talking about. However, I am a mathematician and my point about infinity (pedantic and joyless though it be) still stands.

[\tangent]

By the way, I noticed that, in the UK at least, TPDL is endorsed on the back cover by the guy who wrote The Prayer of Jabez (as well as by Billy and Franklin Graham) so they're clearly aimed at the same market.

[ 09. March 2004, 09:22: Message edited by: Captain Caveman ]

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"Take this shirt
Polyester white trash made in nowhere
Take this shirt and make it clean" - U2

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