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While lulling its enemies with its vacant look, this wily Pokémon use psychokinetic powers.

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I am always a little leary of people who know words like "psychokinetic" but can't conjugate simple verbs like "use".

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
but can't conjugate simple verbs like "use".

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Or spell words like "leery."

I'm pretty sure this is why God smote so many people in the Old Testament.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by Freddy:
Or spell words like "leery."

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Originally posted by Psyduck:
I don't see the difference between this statement and the statement that fundamentally the only thing wrong with the Holocaust was that God didn't order it, and that if God had ordered it it would have been in general principle morally unexceptionable.

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"If God had ordered it" is I am afraid, not a category I can think in.

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Can we just pretend this page never happened?

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Yes please.

Tortuf,
Purgatory Host

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:

Nevertheless, I make my point I made earlier - God does, at the very least allow, if not cause, the deaths of millions every day. Even as the world is! I do not believe that makes him evil, although for a person to do so would be.

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So for him to order genocide (which is perfectly within his rights) would take a pretty extreme situation.

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Can someone please explain to me how we've got from genocide to hell?The original poster said he was disturbed about the Old Testament passages that seemed to give the impression that God condoned, and even recommended, genocide and now people are talking about hell. I think there is a lot of confusion going on here.

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Originally posted by Little Weed:
Can you imagine Christ ever urging the chosen people to kill their enemies? Have we misunderstood his message so badly?
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I'd really appreciate an answer on this one from the conservative evangelical team.

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An, equally possible, interpretation, is that the story shows the terrible consequences of the abuse of spiritual power, in this case by Peter.

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I disagree strongly with this 'he let you off first time but boy is he going to kick ass when he comes back' interpretation. Jesus is not the Terminator saying 'I'll be back'! Acts 1 says Jesus will return 'in the same way' or, in some translations, 'this same Jesus'.

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And our hearing the voice of God in the comand to kill is something that we can only begin to get a grasp of theologically when we realize that we've successfully killed God for the same reasons.

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Those massacred in the OT narratives tend to be of a different race, or if that is putting it too contentiously, a different nation or group. Those killed are not only the ones accused of unspecified wickedness but those who had no power in their societies and were, therefore, their victims - women, slaves, children and even livestock (IIRC)!

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How do we know that the god who commanded the murder of non-Israelites in the OT is the same God of the NT?

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What scares me most about this is the resonance it has with the arguments of Islamic fundamentalists. They argue that Islam is essentially peaceful but that there are some nations who are so evil and depraved that God wants to wipe them off the face of the earth. How do you argue against that if you hold that God did exactly the same thing not that long ago and what’s more Jesus will do even worse when he returns?

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Hey! God! Is it so very bad for me to want my faith to make some sort of coherent sense?

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Surely you can't be saying that things are OK for God just because he says so, and for Jesus because he's God, but are not OK for us just because Jesus says so? Can you?

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It is Peter's flawed judgement, his abuse of genuine spiritual power, that is higlighted by these events.

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I still would like to know why the god of Israel in the OT is known to be the same God of the NT.
Who decided this?

Without being facetious - if it is the same God, is there any chance that God might order us to kill Muslims or Hindus next week?

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I'm guessing Jesus did, he seemed to associate himself quite strongly with the OT prophecies and the characteristics of God taught in the OT scriptures, even going as far as quoting him in the I AM thing, claiming to be him, and yet still referring to his Father. If it *is* the same God though, there could be a chance he could do anything and whatever he liked. Although we would always have to question the source as we haven't had any revelations of biblical authority recently, and alot of people dont even seem to agree over what authority the revelation of the bible holds. Would it fit with his character in the context of our situation and how it may be similar or different to the context of God seemingly agreeing with it in Joshua and the context of Jesus being against it in Matthew? What were Gods motives in each case and do they still apply. From what I've already said way back on page one I'd say his motive for the events of Joshua doesn't apply any more, and since Jesus didnt even tell anyone to kill the Romans who were oppressing the nation of Israel, we wouldn't have much excuse to kill anyone either. So i don't think God could've ordered the Holocaust given the context and still be within his character. Whereas I've rationalised it enough to believe the OT ones were

As for God being allowed to do things which we aren't allowed to do, Romans 12 tells us to not to exact revenge on people because it should be left up to God's wrath to dispense justice. Similarly as the anti-euthanasia/captital punishment argument goes, we are too flawed to decide when people should die, and shouldnt take another life in any way shape or form, but God is infinitely wise, plus he made us and decided we were all going to die sooner or later because of the fall, so he effectively is allowed to decide when someone dies? But then again, thats just what I think, some people might say that God doesnt decide when people die, sin and humanness and disease makes people die (which I would disagree with, but ppl are allowed their opinion) but that attitude would influence the whole argument either way.

Are things immoral because we decide them to be, or because we think God is morally perfect and what he does/says (in context of course) is moral? And then I spose there's all the questioning of whether God did do or say that actually, which is what this thread is mostly about. But I just wanted to throw the first question in.

luv, blessings & pikachu! rach =)

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spuggie (aka rach :)

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
The point being that God, being who is, is still good in applying a moral order to his creatures that does not apply to him. Who can deny that God, at best, allows death every day when he could stop it, when it would be (IMO) immoral for a person to do the same?

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Originally posted by hermit:
Originally posted by Little Weed:
Can you imagine Christ ever urging the chosen people to kill their enemies? Have we misunderstood his message so badly?

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Well, the following conservative writer seemed to imagine just that: Revelation 12:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."

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What scares me most about this is the resonance it has with the arguments of Islamic fundamentalists. They argue that Islam is essentially peaceful but that there are some nations who are so evil and depraved that God wants to wipe them off the face of the earth. How do you argue against that if you hold that God did exactly the same thing not that long ago and what’s more Jesus will do even worse when he returns?

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If you think you're going to convince fundamentalists with mere arguments .... lol.

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It doesn't matter what the Koran says because it isn't true, wasn't spoken by God. If when I'd read it I had judged it to be the true word of God, I'd be smiting off the hands and heads of infidels even now as we speak, just as it commands. Follow the commands of God rather than worrying about how it might seem to this or that ethnicity or religious cult.

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Are things immoral because we decide them to be, or because we think God is morally perfect and what he does/says (in context of course) is moral?

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so you're saying that god allowed power coming from him (cos you say it was a result of genuine spiritual power) to kill two people as a result of a flawed human decision that he didnt really agree with? or are you saying peter killed them and then blamed it on god?

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Originally posted by Psyduck:
Matt Black:

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Finally, consider that none deserve the mercy of God and God has no moral obligation to provide mercy or grace to any people. We all deserve death. It humbles me to consider God extended both mercy and grace to me in Jesus Christ.

So, that being said, only God can order genocide.

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I'm sorry - I really can't believe that you are at ease saying this. I don't see the difference between this statement and the statement that fundamentally the only thing wrong with the Holocaust was that God didn't order it, and that if God had ordered it it would have been in general principle morally unexceptionable. I really don't want to believe that you think this, and I would be really grateful - and I'm not putting any sort of spin on this - if you could tell me how I am wrong in my take on what you're saying.

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I can't really ad to what Lep or Custard have said about this, except that all I was referring to was the essence of starting point of the Gospel - namely that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:21) and that "the wages of sin are death" - none of us deserve life was the point I was making; we like to think we do of course .

Yours in Christ

Matt

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Are things immoral because we decide them to be, or because we think God is morally perfect and what he does/says (in context of course) is moral?

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Originally posted by Psyduck:
Why are we so scared to say straightforwardly that the (revealed) understanding of a God so loving that the measure of his involvemnet with the world is that he takes upon himself, and unmasks, all its violence and dies by crucifixion, is infinitely morally superior to the understanding of divinity that, so far from being revealed, was the common currency of tribal religion three millennia ago, which involves seeing innocent women and children - children, for God's sake! - as fully deserving extermination, and all for the glory of God?

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Luke.13
[1]
There were some present at that very time who told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.


[2] And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus?
[3] I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
[4] Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Silo'am fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem?
[5] I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

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Originally posted by Psyduck:
Why are we afraid to be horrified by genocide? ... which involves seeing innocent women and children - children, for God's sake! - as fully deserving extermination, and all for the glory of God?

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Originally posted by Custard123:
Psyduck:

Are you saying that God is constrained by definitions of right and wrong created by his creatures?

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Yes, you can say all that stuff about God's self-revelation being coherent with our understanding. But the fact of the matter is that the book of Joshua is part of the Scriptures which point to Christ, and Christ certainly seemed to believe them as historical.

To my mind, there are two key facts here

1) Because of the way I reject God, I deserve whatever nasty forms of judgement he sees fit to send on me. So did the Amorites, etc.

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(2) God as love does not preclude him from also being God as light, in whose presence we cannot stand except by the blood of Jesus.

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Is it possible, from your point of view that God is love, not in the sense that uncritically accepts everyone but in the sense that offers to accept everyone, even a wretched sinner like me, despite what they are like, but that still leaves room for "Holy, Holy, Holy" and for "Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished"? Is that idea of God possible to you?

[I'm aware I am slightly misrepresenting you here, but it doesn't affect the sense of what I am asking.]

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Third, and this is a weak point, we are not always told that God directly told the people to do the action.

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1 Give thanks to the LORD , for he is good.
His love endures forever.

10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt
His love endures forever.
11 and brought Israel out from among them
His love endures forever.
12 with a mighty hand and outstretched arm;
His love endures forever.

15 but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea;
His love endures forever.

16 to him who led his people through the desert,
His love endures forever.
17 who struck down great kings,
His love endures forever.
18 and killed mighty kings-
His love endures forever.
19 Sihon king of the Amorites
His love endures forever.
20 and Og king of Bashan-
His love endures forever.
21 and gave their land as an inheritance,
His love endures forever.
22 an inheritance to his servant Israel;
His love endures forever.

26 Give thanks to the God of heaven.
His love endures forever.

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Originally posted by Psyduck:

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[5] I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

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What else is Jesus saying here than "Shit happens?"

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The evil of the Holocaust was one person or group of people taking it upon themselves to decide that another group of people should no longer be allowed to live. They had no right to do this. In essence it was Adam and Eve's sin gone mad - wanting to be like God, by the destruction of others.

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The fall has transformed the relationship between God and humanity into one of permanent and implacable hatred.

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the definitive revelation of God is in the person of Jesus Christ. This doesn't invalidate the previous revelation of God through the covenant with Israel but it relativises it.

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It becomes necessary to re-interpret the scriptures in the light of the life and teaching of our Lord.

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Well, actually he is saying that we will all perish unless we repent.

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(and hence strongly implying that we all deserve to perish)

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Originally posted by Psyduck:
I've already said that I don't want to chuck out the OT. I don't see how you can understand the NT without the OT. But I do think that you subordinate the NT to the OT, and in fact try to understand the OT without reference to the NT, and in stand-alone terms. You seem to be stuck with an understanding of the Bible that makes everything in it of equal significance. And because there's genocide in there, it has to be genocide in a "good" sense. God's genocide. So - that's OK then.

I completely agree that Jesus warns of the awful dangers of ultimate separation from God - but I can't see anything in the NT that suggests that he buys into the whole OT on the terms that a twenty-first century propositioalist and/or inerrantist does.

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Originally posted by Psyduck:
Leprechaun:

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I think the burden of proof lies on you as to why we should decry these texts as an epitome of evil, when Jesus never did any such thing.

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And why do I have to prove that Jesus took the view of these texts that I take?

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You are the one who is claiming that Jesus launched a wholesale revision of the character of God as revealed in the OT which the Jewish community at his time viewed as a revelation of God.

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If Jesus wished to revolutionise these texts, he didn't do it very clearly - he didn't take them on, or challenge them - yet you are saying they are antithetical to the God he reveals.

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I think the burden of proof lies on you as to why we should decry these texts as an epitome of evil, when Jesus never did any such thing.

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Originally posted by Psyduck:
My position is that God, revealed in Jesus Christ couldn't possibly order or sanction genocide

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