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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Let's invade America!
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Fallen to 58% (plus or minus 5% which means it hasn't fallen jack).
I thought that 58% "fall" rather humorous. I found the fact the news saw fit here to analyze and discuss that figure ridiculous. But what else is new....
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Approval ratings go up and down.
Bush would have to be really stupid to be able to lose the next election.
No, wait...
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
He'll be fine as long as he wins the war. Didn't America win the last one? Someone had better tell Saddam.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
He'll be fine as long as he wins the war. Didn't America win the last one? Someone had better tell Saddam.
I'm not sure it would register. He's not thinking in terms of failing or not surviving.
He, openly, wants to be another Saladin, who was an anti-Crusader. He's basically cast himself in a super-hero role.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
we won the last one because we stopped before we finished. i was not a big fan of operation desert storm, however, having started it, it was foolish in the extreme to leave it like we did.
my big fear now is that we'll end up in a nasty, dirty was like vietnam, unable to win, refusing to pull out.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
Ah well - crusades generally being bad things, good luck to the man.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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motojerry
Shipmate
# 4147
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Posted
Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky may have an occasional truth to share but they are certainly not prophets. I enjoy much of what they say, it is entertaining, and provides them with a living.
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Always bear this in mind, that very little indeed is necessary for living a happy life. Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 203 | From: Minneapolis, MN USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I think Chomsky has tenure ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Maybe he can give the extra to Moore.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I think Chomsky has tenure
Maybe he can give the extra to Moore.
I think Moore is rapidly manging to live up to the loony lefty sterotype - he seems to be the left's answer to Rush Limbaugh...
As for Chomsky, he seems to go round in circles too but his circles are rather more intricate and stylish than Moore's. Still I admire Chomsky's ability for analysis even if he does seem to emulate the machine-gun blaming that Pilger has become so adept at...
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
originally posted by Perfecta
"I think Moore is rapidly manging to live up to the loony lefty sterotype"
Really? I have right-wing friends (honestly) and aquintences who saw "Bowling for Columbine" and thought it thought provoking and intelligent. I was slightly surpirsed that he's in the NRA (if he is) but then again sterotypes and all that. However, I really can't imagine how anyone could think the film extreme ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) Ok - maybe there's a argument for it's being erroneous I suppose - but extreme Surely Not!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can't comment on Chomsky becouse I've never read him. Always just assumed he was a typical neo-marxist and I'm fairly familiar with that position already.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Brown:
"I think Moore is rapidly manging to live up to the loony lefty sterotype"
Really? I have right-wing friends (honestly) and aquintences who saw "Bowling for Columbine" and thought it thought provoking and intelligent. I was slightly surpirsed that he's in the NRA (if he is) but then again sterotypes and all that.
well I was slightly ambivalent about BfC - Moore tends to usually be right but not very good at explaining why... What really annoyed me was his performance on Newsnight from NY - he had no grace or humility in the way say Billy Bragg would have approached it. Another bone of contention I have with him is his economy with the truth (at times). He posted this editorial on his website how Bush was going to get thrashed in the mid-term elections but when it didn't happen he removed it! On the awful truth (an ok program but nowhere near as good as Mark Thomas' Comedy Product), he magnified a graph looking at the US insurance companies profits making it seem as if it was trebling each year (it was going up v. fact but no that fast)... Again, I agree with his sentiment that health services shouldn't be run on a profit basis but did he really need to do that?
But I still enjoy watching his programs though - I suppose the mere fact he infuriates the right-wingers makes him worth supporting - give them some of their own medecine ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[on topic tangent]
RE: the original post - couldn't a similar case (i.e. bombing the US) be made for the UK or France for that matter no? The UK system isn't democratic given the first past the post system (same in France as it side-lines the extremes - the National Front often reaped 15% of the vote but only got one seat in the assembly) - and for the rest it's hardly open to debate, is it?
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Brown:
Can't comment on Chomsky becouse I've never read him. Always just assumed he was a typical neo-marxist and I'm fairly familiar with that position already.
Nope. Calls himself an anarchist and libertarian.
I think he takes those liberties allowed to fully-paid-up geniuses.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Fair enough ken - As I said
"I've never read him"!!!!!!!
So, what do you suggest I read? Maybe PM me with this if you want to reply becouse I have no wish to hi-jack the thread.
Cheers,
Ben
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
I'd recommend Deterring Democrary and Necessary Illusions - not light reading but worthwhile.
On the more accesible front, there's loads of interviews with him floating around the net (try Znet for some) which will probably be good nutshell summaries of his thought...
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
USA is not a democracy. It is a federal republic.
A federal republic is a republic in which a union of states or districts which retain only a subordinate and limited sovereignty under a central republican authority.
A republic (representative democracy) is a form of government (and a state where it is used) where the head of state is not a monarch. This form of government involves a limited democracy.
Democracies can be divided into different types, based on a number of different distinctions. The most important distinction is between direct democracy and representative democracy. Limited democracy is far more common than direct democracy.
Direct democracy (sometimes also called "pure democracy") is a system in which all people are allowed to influence policy making by means of a direct vote on any particular issue.
Representative democracy (or indirect democracy, parliamentary democracy, or republic), is a system in which citizens democratically elect government officials who then make decisions on behalf of the citizens.
BTW: No one seems to mind the military might of America when it comes to getting rid of people like Slobidan Milosevich, or forcing the Nazis out of Europe, or freeing the Russians et al from communist tyranny. No country seems to mind taking my tax dollars when their citizens are starving. Can you name the last time the American people have been thanked for the multitude of good they have done around the world?
If I had a neighbor whom I supported finacially went around theneighborhood bad mouthing me, should I continue to give them food, money, and protection from bandits?
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
If you profess to be a Christian, yes, you most certainly should.
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
USA is not a democracy. It is a federal republic.etc etc
![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Red Herring winner of the week - nay the month!
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Also meaningless nonsense. For most English-speaking people these days (even in the USA) "republic" just means any system of government without a king, and "democracy" any system in which the people elect the government.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Also meaningless nonsense. For most English-speaking people these days (even in the USA) "republic" just means any system of government without a king, and "democracy" any system in which the people elect the government.
In that case, I proudly count myself in the educated minority.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
If you profess to be a Christian, yes, you most certainly should.
Doesn't the bible advise you to not cast your pearls before swine? Didn't Peter cause the death of two tithers who lied about how much they were giving? Aren't we told that if someone will not accept us we are to leave their presence and wipe the dust off our shoes? Being christian does not mean being an idiot.
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Not like that bloody idiot Jesus who banged on about treating our enemies the same way as our friends. Bloody lefty do-gooding idiot.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
If you profess to be a Christian, yes, you most certainly should.
Doesn't the bible advise you to not cast your pearls before swine? Didn't Peter cause the death of two tithers who lied about how much they were giving?Aren't we told that if someone will not accept us we are to leave their presence and wipe the dust off our shoes? Being christian does not mean being an idiot.
(While the U.S. and UK aren't what I would call "Christian nations," I'll address your statements from a response from a Christian.)
In the world's eyes, Christians *are* idiots. Morons. Goobs, twits, feebs, rubes and social hayseeds. We're deluded, hopelessly out of date and out of fashion, reactionary, requiring a God crutch because we can't face reality, mentally and emotionally unstable, judgmental, cruel, hypocritical, greedy, in denial, neurotic, responsible for the worst atrocities committed in our poor history; in fact, we're barely a step away from full commital in the Giggle Factory, and that step is under debate even so.
The bad news? We already are idiots. So why change now?
We --at our best-- accept people unconditionally, we don't make them sign contracts and post performance bonds before we decide to love them. We don't keep track of wrongs done to us. We don't lie to people, we don't cheat them or steal from them, we don't sleep with one anyone else's spouses, we don't gossip or backbite or withhold material goods from those in need. We don't murder and we confess our sins, we hope for the best at all times and we tell the truth, we're brave despite our fears, we encourage each other in our walks with God, counting each other as more important than ourselves. We're honest in all things. We lay down our lives for each other every day in little acts of service and kindess, and in big acts of heroism. At our best, for those few moments or days or whatnot, this is how the world should see us.
We believe in a God no one can see, touch, taste, smell or hear. We claim He's all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent, yet somehow evil still exists in our world. We claim He sent His son to die for us, taking the price of our sins upon Himself, a claim that has some historical proof, but nothing tangible. We believe God loves us all, even (or especially) you know, them, over there. The ones who don't measure up to all our standards for what "the right people" should look like, should work like, should live like, should drive or wear or eat or drink or screw. Yeah, those people; the ones that look like us....
We believe in forgiving our enemies, not just once or twice, but according to the words of the man whom we believe to be the Son of God, an identity never to be duplicated then or since, "...seventy times seven."
Over and over and over in the NT, God makes it abundantly clear Christians are not to conform themselves to the value system of this fallen world. (I'll spare the verse quoting, we've all heard them a million times.)
In a nutshell, we are to die to ourselves, and the consequence of that is we will live eternally.
We are to love our enemies, do good to them that hate us. There is no equivocation here in His words, no gray areas, no wiggle room whatsoever.
Where we fall into debate is, what constitutes "doing good"? What is "loving our enemies"?
If a beggar on the freeway offramp holds up a "homeless, hungry, please help" sign, am I loving him by giving him cash or perhaps a bag of food? If I drive him to the downtown mission or to the community hospital for detox, is that loving him less or more than giving him the cash?
Take a man whose wife is an alcoholic who denies her addiction and refuses treatment. What is his most loving course of behavior toward her when she comes home drunk, vomits on the living room floor, and passes out face down in the mess? Continue with her as she is and clean up after her and keep urging treatment on her? Or leave her there, pick up and move out until she gets clean and sober? Or just divorce her and be done with her?
Take Iraq for example, some people see continuing to press for UN sanctions and inspections as loving the Iraqi people by not inflicting war upon them. Other people see a miltary strike to remove Hussein from power as loving the Iraqi people as well as ourselves enough to rid us all of a genocidal tyrant. People of good conscience and sound mind, believers all, have opposing views on this issue, and both can quote Scripture to justify it.
So while there's no wiggle room in whatJesus said, there's quite a large room for maneuver in how to best implement what He said.
So, being a Christian means exactly being an idiot. It means holding beliefs and committing actions that the mainstream of every society will deem ludicrous or offensive. Being a Christian means feeding someone who hates you. Being a Christian means praying for the well-being of someone who hates you. Being a Christian means loving that hateful person in spite of their hate, and not returning that hate to them.
Love doesn't mean being a doormat or a yes-man. Sometimes love must make very difficult decisions, endure terrible consequences, pay high prices. Sometimes, love must ask someone else to pay a price as well. Love always, always looks out for the best interests of its subject. Love loves enough to say "no" when appropriate.
I'm 41, I've been a Christian since 1977, and I'm still learning about love, and frankly, I suck at it. If love were a profession, I'd be fired in a minute and I'd never be able to get a job in it. I've said very unloving things on this board and felt quite wonderfully self-righteous while I did so. I imagine we all share that condition, so we all know what it's like.
Rather a long-winded response, as most of mine seem to be, but I hope one you read. I remember once complaining to my magic teacher about the difficulty of a routine, how much it demanded of my hand, and he said, "If it were easy, everyone would be doing it." So too, for the Christian life.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Kenwritez - an excellent post
It's almost a shame it's down here in DH and will not get the wider exposure it so clearly deserves.
Thank you
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Ken - you are hereby allowed to keep using my name for at least another year ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Ken, let me bring it to an even half-dozen:
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
Wow! Kenwritez! I always knew you were clever, but now I know!
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Kenwritez,
(but Lord keep him humble in the face of all this praise ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Kenwritez - You have done one of the best jobs I've ever seen at descibing what a Christian should be aiming at. Being an idiot
I suspect if all Christians were more like you descibe there would be more of them. but, we are sinners after all.
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Sauerkraut
Shipmate
# 3112
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Posted
Ken,
Let me make this an even dozen.
Saeurkraut
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We want not an amalgam or compromise, but both things at the top of their energy; love and wrath both burning. Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites, by keeping them both, and keeping them both furious.--G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 196 | From: The middle of the US | Registered: Jul 2002
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
Ummmmm....
![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif)
Thank you for the appreciation. DEFINITELY makes my day. Heck, makes my week! Y'all rock.
to y'all.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Light
BANNED
# 4244
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Posted
Everyone just chill out. It does not matter a jot who or what you believe. In fact you'd all probably have much better lives if you stopped trying to believe in anything that someone else has told you to believe.
You think you form your beliefs all by yourself don't you? Think again.
Namaste
![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Posts: 47 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Royal Peculiar
Shipmate
# 3159
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Posted
Dear Namaste,
With the utmost respect, i it doesn't matter one jot what we believe, why are you wasting your time on a board where this subject of our beliefs is discussed intensely, intellegently and knowledgebly ( although not always in my case)? You are of course more than welcome, but you contradict that statement by taking the trouble to come on the boards and make it.
If you are saying that we unquestionably swallow what we are told and are too stupid to realise this is what we are doing, I would beg to differ.
We agonise over what we are told anfd in what sense it may or may not be true, and learn from one another in the process. People who simply want to say "this is my view and I 'm here to convince you all that it is the only correct opinion" are not terribly well received.
May I invite you to expand your post just a little so that I am not in danger of misunderstanding you?
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Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Oscar Wilde
Posts: 405 | From: Barking, London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
My goodness (or lack of it!), to have on one page what kenwritez wrote , surely one of the best things EVER written, on any board, on the Ship, and then to have the inane 'it doesn't matter one jot what you believe' a few posts later from the inaptly named 'The Light'... Words fail me.
(They most certainly do not fail kenwritez. )
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
The Light - I bet you think you formed that belief all by yourself don't you? Think again. We are all products of what we read, experience, hear, as well as our upbringing. As it says in Ecclesiastes 1;9b "there is nothing new under the sun" (NIV).
Even if that verse is a slight exageration (if), what you said is hardly original so don't insult us for believing what we regard as realistic. It's not terribly respectful is it? Oh, and btw, many shipmates seem to me (although I admit to being a total newbie) to be extremely wel read and well thought out in thier views.
Kenwritez - Still reckon that what you wrote is about the sanest, clearest and most worthwhile explanation of the Christian ideal I have ever heard. That comes from a Theology Student.
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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James Mc
Procrastinator
# 3414
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
Kenwritez - an excellent post
It's almost a shame it's down here in DH and will not get the wider exposure it so clearly deserves.
Thank you
Kenwritez
Thanks very much for your post Kenwritez.
I think it would make an excellent basis for a Ship main article, or even a Rant...
Posts: 905 | From: London, UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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Thumbprint
Shipmate
# 3056
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Posted
Kenwritez, your post was amazing. Thank you
Posts: 172 | From: In the Pool | Registered: Jul 2002
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Light:
Everyone just chill out. It does not matter a jot who or what you believe. In fact you'd all probably have much better lives if you stopped trying to believe in anything that someone else has told you to believe.
You think you form your beliefs all by yourself don't you? Think again.
Namaste
Hi Light;
If what you say is true, then by your own logic it doesn't matter if we believe you. Taking your own statement, we'd have a better life if we didn't believe what you've said. The logic in your post is the equivalent of saying, "I've told you a million times, I never exaggerate."
Belief is crucial. Who are we and how do we know who we are? What anyone believes is who they are: "Belief makes the man." Beliefs are formed by input from others (via education, media, personal interaction), so your post is self-contradictory because it's a belief that you came to as a result of input from others. (Yes, you process the input, but you still must have the initial input in order to process it.)
If this is the case, then what we believe is of vast importance. If I believe God does not exist, in no right or wrong, merely in my "right" to do whatever I want when I want to do it, then my life will relect that belief and I'll be toxic to my world.
If I believe there is a God but He's perpetually angry at me, sees me as worthless scum, then my life will reflect that, and I'll either scurry about trying desperately to earn His approval or I'll shoot Him the middle finger and tell Him to go shag Himself.
While these are extremes, they do illustrate my point: We are what we believe. We are who we believe we are.
Every single aspect of our human identity (as opposed to spiritual identity, a topic for another thread) is founded upon our belief in something or someone, even ourself. We are who we believe we are. (As an illustration, Prov. 23:7; "For as he thinks in his heart, so is he....")
As children, we don't know who we are until we're told by others, told by parents, family, friends, strangers, society at large. "You're my son, I love you," or, "You're now a dog owner, so you'll have to feed him and pick up the dog crap in the back yard," or, "You're a useless git, sod off."
For example: We're colored by our relationship with our parents or whomever acts as our authority figures. We look to them for our own definition, to answer our question, "Who am I?"
If we're told by them we're stupid, bad, worthless, untalented, etc., then we will believe that about ourselves until we have compelling reason to change that belief. That reason will come in the form of someone else telling us contradictory information: We *are* loved, we *are* capable in some area, we *do* have opinions worth the airing. We will receive this contradictory information (as opposed to discounting it), and assimilate it, only when we believe we have the right and the duty to do so.
As we grow, we go about assembling our identities piece by piece, like a woman sewing a quilt, picking that red section over there, that yellow bit here, those nice black trims there. At some point, it dawns upon us we now have a working self identity, "This is who I am." This identity forms the basis for our interaction with everyone else.
Sometimes enough crap piles up in our lives that we take a second look at who we are, and realize we've been operating under a wrong assumption. IOTW, there are times we must discard some pieces of that self identity quilt; they're no longer accurate or never were. This is what growing up is all about.
Ideally, it's a never-ending process and IMHO completion is reached only when we're standing in front of God after our physical death.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Thinker
Apprentice
# 4328
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Posted
This thread started as let's attack America and I'd like to get back to that concept now that they have been "successful" in Iraq.
They have allowed the destruction of thousands of years old artifcats and nearly all the hospitals by refusing to have a plan of what to do once they had killed enough Iraqi soldiers to drive into the streets of Baghdad, uninvited and certainly unwelcome.
When they got there they put an American flag over the face of the Saddam statue and proceeded to wreck it with a tank. It was for the people of Iraq to do that, not them.
America's foreign policy would be an embarrasment to Europeans who are more politically/geographically/culturally aware. They can't sort out the Middle East becayuse they won't tell Israel to get back to its '47 boundaries and to leave Palestine to set up its own autonomous state. Jerusalem should be made an international city policed by the UN. America wouldn't dare do this because the Kews run America and have done for the last century and all Presidents are frightened of them.
I don't want to attack America itself, but I do want to attack this creeping Americaisation which is taking over the world and infecting our individual cultures with bad table manners, a TV society, shoppping addiction, obeisity, ignorance, etc.. They arrogantly believe that America is best, well it isn't. It has no culture, no history and a very uneducated ignorant populace who gorges itself with fast food, Coke and McDonalds. They naively think we all want this. Well we don't!
Why will they never understand that nobody anywhere else in the world wants their country to be like America or run by America, however poor that makes them, people still watn to keep their cultures whih are dusregarded by all Americans - just look at the way they arrogantly expect everyone in Europe to speak American (I won't say English as that would be insulting to English).
Let's face it the human rights abuses in America are worse than in many third world countries. You only have to look at the prisoners being held in Guantanamo Bay without trial or being charged for evidence of that.
So I say let's not attack America, but throughout Europe, let's attack Americanisation as its shallow and empty of any value. Speak to them in your own language and make them try to learn some.
Posts: 29 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2003
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
War crimes, human rights violations, and cultural imperialism? All in a day's work, Sweetheart.
But bad table manners?!
<Presleyterian removes white kid gloves and slaps them across Thinker's cheek>
Sir or Madam, I challenge you to a duel.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Now Spouter, pardon me, I mean "Thinker", perhaps you shouldn't have accepted those Hershey bars our soldiers handed out during the Second European, oops, I mean the Second World War. Didn't you realize they were the thin edge of our cultural domination wedge?
Gosh, for that matter maybe you shouldn't have accepted fifty years of us paying for your protection. European history isn't my best subject, ignorant American that I am, so perhaps you could tell me when that poor, bellicose continent last had fifty years with no wars?
Now, in parting, let me say that unless you've got a dozen and a half of your great-grandmother's Stief ice-cream forks in your sideboard, along with two dozen damask banquet napkins, now listen carefully, sweatheart: shut the fuck up about our table manners.
slap it again, Presley.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Just because I am heavily involved in the Ark, don't think you can get away with such slack-jawed stupidity for any length of time, "Thinker". Here's a clue for you: one more post like this out of you, and thou shalt have thy ignorant and xenophobic butt flamed to a crisp in Hell.
So, I gotta ask: WTF is a Kew? Is that a contraction of Kike and Jew?
quote:
Originally posted by the clueless newbie:
It has no culture, no history and a very uneducated ignorant populace who gorges itself with fast food, Coke and McDonalds. They naively think we all want this. Well we don't!
And yet, you buy it. Are you in the habit of spending hard-earned cash on things you don't want?
[ 24. April 2003, 18:39: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
<Host Mode: ACTIVATE>
Thinker - others have beaten me to it.
But I'm going to act the host anyway - you say you 'do not want to attack America itself', but that is what you are doing, albeit with a side-ways attack.
It might just have been acceptable in Hell (where I think this thread originated) but it is definitely not acceptable here in Dead Horses, and would probably incur the wrath of a host on any other board.
As you are relatively new, please accept this as a firm warning from me. An apology would be a wise move at this stage,
Erin has made her views quite clear and she carries MUCH more clout around here than I do.
If I may give you some advice (verb. sap.) it is unwise to push your luck with her - her avatar is no accident
<Host Mode:DEACTIVATE>
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re table manners:
Well, *this* American, when in Europe many years ago, took up the local fashion of eating most things (hamburgers, bananas, pizza) with a knife and fork, keeping fork in one hand and knife in the other, etc.
In case you haven't noticed, manners vary considerably the world over.
Re languages:
Believe it or not, people do study foreign languages here. I've studied several.
But we don't have quite the *need* for them that Europeans do. Our country is huge, with one official language. Europeans really need to know several languages, because there are so many countries right next to each other.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I am surprised you didn't know what a Kew is Erin. It is a religious cult made up of members of the Trilateral Commission. They have set up Tamples all over the U.S. At these Tamples they indoctrinate the select few into the arts of running the country while making it look like it is run by a bunch of people up in D.C.
I would tell you more, but I just joined the local Tample. They tell me that they will have to kill me if I give away too many secrets. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Tortuf, Mulder and Scully will pay you a visit. After midnight. Password: "the truth is out there".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
Thinker, the next time you post on America (or "Americaisation" as you persist in calling it) you may want to avoid exposing your vast ignorance of things American by following these simple steps:
1) Please grasp basic English syntax. It's "Americanization." (Or "Americanisation for you UK folk.)
2) Get your damn facts correct. You make barely a single factually-correct assertion, a sad fact embarrassing to you but to no one else.
3) Drop the xenophobia at the front door. I (and, I presume, most every other Shipmate, American or not) had all desired out of you and those carrying that same disease.
Your post makes you look like an idiot. Not merely an idiot--any fool can achieve that--but you've colored yourself paranoid, ignorant, slobberingly stupid, and anti-Semitic as well. Perhaps you are not those things, and I hope you are not, but your post very, very clearly paints you as such in nice, bright neon colors.
To Thinker and everyone else who gets their panties in a twist over the sight of the Golden Arches™ rising over their beloved home town: Don't eat there. If your neighbor wants to chow down on the corporate death burger, that's his lookout.
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
They have allowed the destruction of thousands of years old artifcats and nearly all the hospitals by refusing to have a plan of what to do once they had killed enough Iraqi soldiers to drive into the streets of Baghdad, uninvited and certainly unwelcome.
Yeah. I can see the Oval Office session now:
Pres. Bush: "Hi Colin Powell, do we have a plan of have a plan of what to do once we've killed enough Iraqi soldiers to drive into the streets of Baghdad, uninvited and certainly unwelcome?"
Powell: "No sir, we refuse to have such a plan. We want to piss off the granola heads and the peaceniks."
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
When they got there they put an American flag over the face of the Saddam statue and proceeded to wreck it with a tank. It was for the people of Iraq to do that, not them.
Yeah, I guess there were about 10,000 dusty unarmed US troops that just looked like Iraqis helping pull that statue down and then dancing on it when it hit the dirt. Funny, I don't recall getting the memo where you are promoted to say what was and was not "for the Iraqi people" to do. Damn that interoffice mail.
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
America's foreign policy would be an embarrasment to Europeans who are more politically/geographically/culturally aware.
Yeah. Those oh-so-politically/geographically/culturally evolved Europeans. Let's look at their track record of superiority. Hmmmm...I'm flipping through my Western Civ text and somehow I can't find any European country that was ever free from brutality and oppression nor never brutalized and oppressed others in turn.
Culture? As I am an unlearned, ignorant fat American, I'll put down my fast food sandwich long enough to wipe my mouth on the curtains and try to cudgel a few stray facts from my mushpot of a brain.
The French make great wine but they think Jerry Lewis is funny. They also arguably lost a war with Greenpeace. The Germans have great writers and composers, but have a nasty habit of letting their military handle all their foreign relations. The Swiss were happy to take money from both Allies and Axis during WWII. The Russians had Lenin and Stalin, the Compassion and Spiritual Empowerment poster boys. The Belgians and Portugese profited hugely from slave trading in Africa. Everyone agrees the British occupation of their neighbors Scotland and Ireland was mere humanitarian peacekeeping, and the Spanish, of course, were exemplary observers of human rights in the Americas.
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
They can't sort out the Middle East becayuse they won't tell Israel to get back to its '47 boundaries and to leave Palestine to set up its own autonomous state.
So we're interfering bastards because we're spreading our culture and military might all over the world, yet we're also as big a group of bastards because we won't coerce another country to do what we want? Pick a lane and drive in it, Thinker, you're wandering all over the damn road.
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
Jerusalem should be made an international city policed by the UN.
I'm sure given the UN's sterling track record in crisis management, under your idea Jerusalem would be entirely free of hatred and suffering in short order!
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
America wouldn't dare do this because the Kews run America and have done for the last century and all Presidents are frightened of them.
Your remark is not only a Commandment 3 violation, it is silly and racist and reveals a chilling lack of thought. Do you actually believe this toxic twaddle? Are you that stupid? If you are, I suggest you Google search on "white power +racial purity +Jews" and you'll find a host of sympathetic bretheren.
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
I don't want to attack America itself, but I do want to attack this creeping Americaisation which is taking over the world and infecting our individual cultures with bad table manners, a TV society, shoppping addiction, obeisity, ignorance, etc..
Ah, but you ARE attacking America itself by attacking {b]all[/b]Americans, good Thinker! This is the same lesson that MatrixUK failed to learn in Hell. "I don't want to attack America but all Americans are fat, ignorant, stupid gits" is not the way to Win Friends and Influence People™. Unless you mean, you're not attacking America as an ideal or not attacking American buildings and beaches and trees and animals?
As for bad table manners? Heavens to Betsy! Egad! Somehow, I thought Miss Manners and Martha Stewart--staunch supporters of good table manners--were both American as well as pop culture icons, the very thing you rave against. Silly me!
Let's see; according to you, we're badly table mannered, fat, ignorant, lazy, addicted to fast food, tv and shopping. Well, let's see...Hmmm... Bad table manners? No, my mother, sisters and aunt raised me to decent table manners at fork tine point, (nothing like a dessert fork poked into your elbow to get it off the table) so my table manners are at least satisfactory. The SoCal shipmates have seen me eat in public, so feel free to ask them if my table manners are below par.
Fat? Yes, I am; a fair cop on that one. I'm quite fat. Ignorant? Well, RuthW's opinion of my opinion about Iraq's future aside, no. Addicted to tv and shopping? Well, I spend infinitely more time on the Ship than in front of the tube so "no" on that one, and since I'm somehow able to keep body and soul together on my income, "addicted to shopping" must fail as well.
BZZZZZT! Sorry, you don't advance to the bonus round. Johnny, what do we have for our contestant?
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
They arrogantly believe that America is best, well it isn't.
And you would know this how? If you define "best" solely as "having more land," "having less haggis," or "incapable of brewing decent beer or tea," then yes, America is "best." If you define "best" as having less totalitarian government and less oppression of women and minorities, then yes, America is "best" compared to North Korea, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan, Rwanda, for example.
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
It has no culture, no history and a very uneducated ignorant populace who gorges itself with fast food, Coke and McDonalds.
You don't really believe this, do you? Otherwise, you've neatly stereotyped every single 270+ million of us currently alive, plus our +200 year-old country, plus every one of us who's ever lived, and plunked us into your tidy little boxes and stamped CONDEMNED across them. Tell me, did you actually think about anything you've said above or did it all just pour forth as huge rant, like an enormous fart?
You do realize you're talking out of your arse here? That you're completely and totally wrong? As well as violated Commandment 3 of the 10Cs?
I look around at America and do I see no culture? No history and an uneducated, ignorant, gluttonous populace? I see a culture, some of which I loathe and some of which I love. I see an incredibly rich history of people trying to make their way as best they can in a new world, failing and succeeding by turns, building a world power and a civilization that has never been equaled and that owes the genesis of every brick, every idea, to the cultures from which our founders came.
God yes, Americans screw up plenty both at home and abroad! American policies are uneven at best, criminal and stupid at their worst examples. Hmmm. Which other countries can claim an unbroken string of moral high grounds in these areas?
You don't mean to attack America? Who the hell is left? You've shitcanned all Americans, past and present, so--Oh, yes! I see: You are. You're left. You're the one whose right and we as Americans are all wrong. Damn my blind eyes for not seeing this Trvth™ beforehand!
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
They naively think we all want this. Well we don't!
You, of course, presume to speak for The Rest of the World? All 8 or so billion souls (minus we fat, lazy, uneducated Americans) have poured their confidences into your shell-like ears? My, what an interesting social calendar you must have!
If "Americaisation" is so bad, then why the hell are people eating in McDonalds? Why are they watching American tv shows and movies? Why are they wearing clothes from Eddie Bauer and The Gap? Why do some of them drive Fords and Chevrolets?
Somehow I missed that BBC special on the Ronald McDonald death squad clowns kidnapping people and forcing them to eat fries, Big Macs and Cokes. Somehow I missed that Guardian article on American movie ushers press-ganging helpless Europeans, Asians and Africans into theaters.
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
Why will they never understand that nobody anywhere else in the world wants their country to be like America or run by America, however poor that makes them, people still watn to keep their cultures whih are dusregarded by all Americans - just look at the way they arrogantly expect everyone in Europe to speak American (I won't say English as that would be insulting to English).
I guess I'm just arrogant by expecting you to know something of what you're talking about, I expect. O well, silly old fat, lazy, stupid, arrogant, imperialistic me!
I'll be glad to forward your complaint to the "they" that run America. O, I forgot! You know who they are--Kews! (I suspect you mean Jews.) I think their email address is "jews.com."
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
Let's face it the human rights abuses in America are worse than in many third world countries. You only have to look at the prisoners being held in Guantanamo Bay without trial or being charged for evidence of that.
You're right! Those peoor people, held in comfortable clothing and fed adequate meals! O, the horror! God knows how much better they'd be treated in, say, Turkey or Iran. (Just in case someone misses the irony, I hold no brief for illegally jailing those people, and I want them out as much as anyone else.)
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
So I say let's not attack America,
Like you just did?
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
Speak to them in your own language and make them try to learn some.
I already speak Spanish and some Italian, so I think I've fulfilled these terms. Most Americans can speak at least a smattering of other languages.
quote:
Originally posted by Thinker:
but throughout Europe, let's attack Americanisation as its shallow and empty of any value.
You mean as shallow and empty of value as your entire post and whatever thought processes that fueled it? You mean as empty-headed, snide and totally free of anything resembling logic or compassion or maturity as your post was? Or do you mean as utterly unthinking, racist, mean-spirited and arrogant as your post? Perhaps you mean simply as sun-bright blindingly stupid as your post? Or do you perchance mean as totally void of any hint of recognizance for the value of an entire nation of people and their rather obvious achievements as your post was? Or am I completely missing your xenophobic little boat and failing to realize the inherent value in blindly dismissing over 270 million people and over 200 years of history?
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Sock it to him, Kenwritez!
And BTW Thinker, I am still waiting for that apology - I may have politely phrased it as a request, but it is still required!
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Kenwritez, I am an arrogant, elitest Brit, full of stereotypes of what other nationalities are like. Even so, your last post was masterly .
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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