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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Blasphemous desecration
Max.
Shipmate
# 5846

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It doesn't matter who was the celebrant at the mass. (Well, he has to be episcopally ordained and authorized to celebrate the mass)
But you're correct!

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by madferret:
But if it is accepted by the RC faithful that all communion involves the real body of Christ, then it shouldn't matter where the wafer came from or who blessed it. Should it? Or is it somehow more holy to receive the sacrament in that way?

It is theoretically all the same, but getting Communion from the Pope in St Peter's has somewhat more cachet than getting it from Fr Insignificant in the wilds of Essex. Had the man on eBay sold it as a Communion wafer from Fr Insignificant's Mass in Essex, I doubt if it would have attracted as much attention as it did or that anyone would have paid $2000 dollars for it.
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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by madferret:
But if it is accepted by the RC faithful that all communion involves the real body of Christ, then it shouldn't matter where the wafer came from or who blessed it. Should it? Or is it somehow more holy to receive the sacrament in that way?

It is theoretically all the same, but getting Communion from the Pope in St Peter's has somewhat more cachet than getting it from Fr Insignificant in the wilds of Essex. Had the man on eBay sold it as a Communion wafer from Fr Insignificant's Mass in Essex, I doubt if it would have attracted as much attention as it did or that anyone would have paid $2000 dollars for it.
I dunno; the Knights of Columbus are a devoted bunch of people, if they had to pay $2000 then they probably would.

-103

[ 17. April 2005, 17:29: Message edited by: 103 (One-O-Three) ]

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I dunno; the Knights of Columbus are a devoted bunch of people, if they had to pay $2000 then they probably would.


I can see a lot of money being made by people.
Roll up, roll up, buy your host here, Host blessed by obscure priest going for $5, blessed by bishop going for $100. Each piece of bread a genuine part of Christ's body.
People could go down the shops buy some unconsecrated hosts and then pretend that they were consecrated and no one would be able to tell the difference.
Surely there is a episode of 'Only Fools and Horses' here?

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
People could go down the shops buy some unconsecrated hosts and then pretend that they were consecrated and no one would be able to tell the difference.

We don't know that he didn't do that anyway. Maybe he was just floating the first one on eBay to see what kind of interest he could get. He knew perfectly well someone would buy it and now the asking price has been established I wouldn't be at all surprised if more started to surface. Not necessarily from him but with all the publicity, copy-cats might think about cashing in.

Someone was selling a relic on eBay a couple of years ago - a bone of a saint or something? - which also provoked a strong reaction but I don't think there was anything anyone could do to legally stop it.

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Peronel

The typo slayer
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

Someone was selling a relic on eBay a couple of years ago - a bone of a saint or something? - which also provoked a strong reaction but I don't think there was anything anyone could do to legally stop it.

Ebay routinely has several pages of relics for sale. *sigh*

I feel ambivalent about the news of the purchaser of this. On the one hand, I'd rather Jesus went to a good home than ended up being used for black magic. On the other, I do worry that this'll now be seen as a way to make money. And that really isn't good. A bit like puppies, really - all the welfare groups advise not buying them from puppy farms because, even if you're helping that puppy, you're funding the industry.

I dunno. I really hope that doesn't happen.

Peronel.

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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.

I just hope they don't end up with a whole gallery of them.

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I can see it now: A row of glowering 6'4" enforcers at the alter, dark hooded robes with arms crossed over hidden tasers; beady threatening eyes staring from beneath sullen brows searching the faces of the approaching laity.

I sense a new career coming on for me......... I'm 6'4" and I do the glowering well. Of course, since I'm female, Henry's too sexist to consider me ordainable.

Thank heavens the rest of the Anglican comunion doesn't agree with him. On to enforcement!

[Shall I enforce correct code with my pointy fork?]

[ 18. April 2005, 08:24: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]

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rosamundi

Ship's lacemaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.

Unlikely - it will probably be consumed.

Deborah

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Website.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.

Unlikely - it will probably be consumed.

Deborah

Or more likely, buried.

[ 17. April 2005, 19:00: Message edited by: Back-to-Front ]

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.

Unlikely - it will probably be consumed.
If the description is true it dates back to 1998, so it's 8 years old.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
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...hence the burial rather than consumption.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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rosamundi

Ship's lacemaker
# 2495

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Out of interest does anyone know what the Knights of Columbus plan to do with it? I'm assuming it will be treated as a sort of relic.

Unlikely - it will probably be consumed.
If the description is true it dates back to 1998, so it's 8 years old.
Eurgh. Buried, then, as Back to Front suggests.

Deborah

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Website.
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Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
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Just out of curiosity, how many people here really believe that the item offered for sale was actually what it claimed to be? I never believed it for a second and my default position is to assume that most people are at least as skeptical as I am about unverifiable claims made by people selling things on eBay. What conceivable reason would anyone have to believe this actually was a Pope-blessed Host?

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Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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Max.
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# 5846

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quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I can see it now: A row of glowering 6'4" enforcers at the alter, dark hooded robes with arms crossed over hidden tasers; beady threatening eyes staring from beneath sullen brows searching the faces of the approaching laity.

I sense a new career coming on for me......... I'm 6'4" and I do the glowering well. Of course, since I'm female, Henry's too sexist to consider me ordainable.

Thank heavens the rest of the Anglican comunion doesn't agree with him. On to enforcement!

Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!
Anyway this ain't the time nor the place!

-103

[Oh look - another member of Fuckwits R Us copying incorrect code.]

[ 18. April 2005, 08:25: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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And thankfully the ECUSA is larger than FIF. Whew.

And dearie, not everyone in the Anglican Church in Africa agrees with you. Just the way not every Roman Catholic agrees with the non-ordination of women. And of course, given the recent Ship discussion of whether or not FIF even exists any more, I'd hardly call them large, or even influential. (Given the inevitability of women bishops, influence = zip.)

To discuss your inherent sexism? YEah, this is entirely the time and the place. I'm really starting to think that if a man had done what this woman had done, you wouldn't have raised a hand to him. Mostly because you're a teeny little wimp who's easily scared off and wouldn't pick on someone so big.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!

There was also once a "very large and vibrant number of people" who thought the earth was flat and that the sun orbited around it. They even burned people at the stake for daring to dispute their "facts."

Numbers don't make ignorance--or sexism--any more palatable. [Roll Eyes]

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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Mr. Spouse

Ship's Pedant
# 3353

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
But you're correct!

quote:
Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me

And there was I feeling all reassured until that last post... {shudder}

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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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You have to hand it to 103 - he keeps coming out of the corner for more punishment. [brick wall] [brick wall] I wonder how he would have got on with the late lamented Ms Dworkin?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
You have to hand it to 103 - he keeps coming out of the corner for more punishment. [brick wall] [brick wall] I wonder how he would have got on with the late lamented Ms Dworkin?

Wasn't that program called "MTV Death Match"?

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Max.
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Listen - Going back to the bit about me going on at that women, I'd just like to clarify for anybody who has been confused that I didn't intend for her to be turned away from the church in case anybody actually thought that I would be nasty enough to do that, I was just expressing on how embaressed she looked, I wasn't saying "I hope I've turned her off my church for good heh heh heh aren't I smug?"

You'll be relieved to know though that she was at church today and she recieved communion from me with a big smile on her face. So I haven't turned her away!

Sorry if you were misled.

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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elsi

Live from Elsewhere
# 2098

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Well that's Mother Catherine for you...very forgiving [Biased]

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the cap fits - I'm wearing it

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!

I never realised that FiF agreed with the Anglican churchs of Kenya, South Africa and Uganda. So FiF are really now going forward and accepting women priests as opposed to going backwards in bigotry.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!

I never realised that FiF agreed with the Anglican churchs of Kenya, South Africa and Uganda. So FiF are really now going forward and accepting women priests as opposed to going backwards in bigotry.
Didn't know that about Kenya, SA and Uganda. Learn something new everyday!
I don't agree with the comment about Backwards in Bigotry. Let's go over to dead horses and discuss it there!

-103

--------------------
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
You'll be relieved to know though that she was at church today and she recieved communion from me with a big smile on her face. -103

Translation:

"...and she received communion from me with a frozen grimace of fear on her face."

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--Formerly: Gort--

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Oh come on Gort, you're projecting.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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Yeah, you're right. It's called method acting.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):

I don't agree with the comment about Backwards in Bigotry. Let's go over to dead horses and discuss it there!

No, lets be rude a supporter of backwards in bigotry here.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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I just want to stop in on this topic and affirm everyone in their brokenness....

Leetle M.

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
... As years went by he even abandoned Luther's doctrine as to the Last Supper, and looked on Christ's spiritual communication of Himself to the faithful and their internal union with Him as the essential feature of the Sacrament... [my bold]
Seems like a reasonable man to me.
...and wrong.

Since when is faith reasonable. It is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.

quote:
For it is not founded upon the holiness of men, but upon the Word of God. And as no saint upon earth, yea, no angel in heaven, can make bread and wine to be the body and blood of Christ, so also can no one change or alter it, even though it be misused. For the Word by which it became a Sacrament and was instituted does not become false because of the person or his unbelief.

—"Of the Sacrament of the Altar", The Large Catechism, Martin Luther



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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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How comforting it must be to rest secure in our convictions.

As for me, faith will remain a force independent of dogmatic religous definition. It will always be an integral part of the continous process of becoming.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
As for me, faith will remain a force independent of dogmatic religous definition. It will always be an integral part of the continous process of becoming.

Can you say that in pre-modernism? I don't speak pomo.

[ 18. April 2005, 03:00: Message edited by: Mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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It means, "I don't know where I'm going, but I'm glad I'm on the way." [Snigger]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271

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Isn't that out of Paint Your Wagon?

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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Can you say that in pre-modernism? I don't speak pomo.

You really should educate yourself, Mousethief. Ignorance isn't always bliss. You can start here.

quote:
This 'visionary mode' is similar to allegorical exegesis which presupposes that the letter
of the text because of its allusiveness points to another level of reality whereby other dimensions
of meaning may be opened up. Understanding, therefore, demands a perception which pierces
beyond the letter. This is the moment of apocalypse when the veil is removed and repentance and epistemological renewal coincide. For the ancient readers of Ezekiel the prophet's visionary
report offered a gateway for visionary perception. For Paul the words of Scripture offered a
gateway to Christ, a possible, though, not necessary, means of discerning the divine mystery,
which was, in the last resort, 'apart from the Law'.



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--Formerly: Gort--

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
You really should educate yourself, Mousethief. Ignorance isn't always bliss.

Precisely why I refuse to learn to speak pomo.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
You'll be relieved to know though that she was at church today and she recieved communion from me with a big smile on her face. -103

Demonstrates resilience. You too, 103.

I'd like to know: was it a fake smile or a real smile?

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2^8, eight bits to a byte

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
As for me, faith will remain a force independent of dogmatic religous definition. It will always be an integral part of the continous process of becoming.

Previously posted by Gort

Seems like a reasonable man to me.

How do you have "reason" without "definitions"? Or, do you admit only the definitions you like?

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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That's dogmatic religous definitions, Bede. I have no problem with definition so long as it isn't cloaked in ancient symbols that are swallowed by rote. This is what I understand by the warning not to worship graven images. It's the process behind the allegory and myth that is valuable to me.

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--Formerly: Gort--

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Ah, this is clearly one of those "irregular" verbs:

I have a vibrant faith.
You have a faith cloaked in ancient symbols and choked by rote.
They are idolators.

[ 18. April 2005, 04:24: Message edited by: Mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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Aren't you making an assumption or three here?

quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
That's dogmatic religous definitions, Bede. I have no problem with definition so long as it isn't cloaked in ancient symbols that are swallowed by rote. This is what I understand by the warning not to worship graven images. It's the process behind the allegory and myth that is valuable to me. (emphasis added)

Particularly the swallowed the rote part.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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The greater part of the disagreements I see on these boards are confusion over differing interpretations of symbols and definitions that represent basic natural processes. Call them devine, mystical, christian, new-age, "PoMo", "PreMo", Zen, Hindu, what-have-you...

They are all human attempts to decribe processes that have a common root in the creative principle. We can't grasp or exchange ideas without using symbols to represent The Real Thing™. My problem arises when the symbols, dogma and ritual that are representative of the Devine become more important than what they stand for.

Are you assuming that I implied you swallow ancient symbols by rote, Bede?

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--Formerly: Gort--

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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809

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quote:
Originally posted by young Henry:
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me,

I've never seen any of them vibrating - though some of them are a bit doddery.
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Archimandrite
Shipmate
# 3997

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quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by young Henry:
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me,

I've never seen any of them vibrating - though some of them are a bit doddery.
Quite so. If they were to vibrate, the ancient bones would crumble and they'd be reduced to a heap of jelly. Has "Vibrant in Certainty" been registered by any particular group? FiF could certainly copyright it as a name for a subsidiary Youth Wing. "Adamant in Acknowledgement"? "Bloody-Minded in Belief"?
I wish I were vibrant, instead of just un-old.

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Peronel

The typo slayer
# 569

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quote:
Originally posted by Archimandrite:
Has "Vibrant in Certainty" been registered by any particular group?

Sounds like Kilroy-Silk to me. "Veritas: Vibrant in Certainty."

He may not be young, but he's certainly vibrant!

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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.

Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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It's good to hear that the lady accosted by you, 103, came back to church - I hope, though, that you soon have an opportunity to talk quietly with her and explain why you did what you did.

I know this is Hell, but I'm going to light a candle for (a) the wretched bozo who sold Our Lord on eBay, that s/he may see the error of her/his ways:

[Votive]

and (b) for 103, that he may continue to serve God faithfully as a Eucharistic Minister and that he may learn from his recent experience:

[Votive]

For what it's worth, I think he was right in principle - if (God forbid) it happens again, at least he'll have been advised how to handle the situation a little better......

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Linguo

Ship's grammar robot
# 7220

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by madferret:
But if it is accepted by the RC faithful that all communion involves the real body of Christ, then it shouldn't matter where the wafer came from or who blessed it. Should it? Or is it somehow more holy to receive the sacrament in that way?

It is theoretically all the same, but getting Communion from the Pope in St Peter's has somewhat more cachet than getting it from Fr Insignificant in the wilds of Essex. Had the man on eBay sold it as a Communion wafer from Fr Insignificant's Mass in Essex, I doubt if it would have attracted as much attention as it did or that anyone would have paid $2000 dollars for it.
I dunno; the Knights of Columbus are a devoted bunch of people, if they had to pay $2000 then they probably would.

-103

<David_Attenborough> And here...we have a very, very rare beast indeed... a post from 103 with no exclamation marks...</David_Attenborough>
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548

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I'd like to
a) Affirm Leetle Masha in her ministry to the Broken on here [Cool]
b) Say how GLAD I am that I have now seen the word under discussion a few posts up was POMO not PORNO (damn these varifocals!)
c) Point out that 103 actually seems to be being LURED out of his corner by a strapping 6'4" woman just so she and her mates can duff him up.
d) Point out too that if they'd had E-bay in mediaeval times there'd have been relics on there every day. This is nothing new to society, it's just an unusual example of people being extraordinarily open about it. I bet it's genuine, but so what? Even if it isn't, it's got people worried. At least they person doesn't claim to have robbed a grave to get it. [Disappointed]

[ 18. April 2005, 09:46: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]

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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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I pity the bozo who bought a bit of bread for $2000.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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Thank you, Vikki, for affirming me in my ministry to the broken, of whom I am chief, as St. John Chrysostom so accurately said.

My brokenness was brought home to me quite clearly when I saw that
quote:
the word under discussion a few posts up was POMO not PORNO (damn these varifocals!)
because, even though the eye doctor told me last week that I have 20-20 vision, thanks be to God, I haven't yet managed to wean myself away from my dear old drugstore reading glasses. I was rejoicing that Mousethief didn't speak porno for fully half an hour before I took a much closer look at the word...is it a word?

Leetle M.

[Edited to remove stray comma]

[ 18. April 2005, 11:28: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged



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