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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Blasphemous desecration
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I pity the bozo who bought a bit of bread for $2000.
Your compassion is overwhelming. No doubt you also pity those idiot Jews who are missing out on the joys of bacon and those Buddhist monks who waste their lives meditating.
FCB
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
]Actually there is a very large and vibrant number of people in the Anglican Communion called Forward in Faith that agree with me, oh and the Anglican Church in Africa!!!
I never realised that FiF agreed with the Anglican churchs of Kenya, South Africa and Uganda. So FiF are really now going forward and accepting women priests as opposed to going backwards in bigotry.
Didn't know that about Kenya, SA and Uganda. Learn something new everyday!
-103
Hint: lurk a bit more....post a bit less.
It'll help you learn and not prove my sig.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
The greater part of the disagreements I see on these boards are confusion over differing interpretations of symbols and definitions that represent basic natural processes. Call them devine, mystical, christian, new-age, "PoMo", "PreMo", Zen, Hindu, what-have-you...
They are all human attempts to decribe processes that have a common root in the creative principle. We can't grasp or exchange ideas without using symbols to represent The Real Thing™. My problem arises when the symbols, dogma and ritual that are representative of the Devine become more important than what they stand for.
Are you assuming that I implied you swallow ancient symbols by rote, Bede?
You appear to be taking the position of the iconoclasts, my dear Gort. You wouldn't be doing that, would you?
Actually, not counting for the minor sidetrips into subjects like FiF (Friends in Frocks, to be polite) or soggy white bread, this whole thread seems to be a rediscussion of iconoclast debates. Just because human nature cries out for outward and visible signs to help our inward and spiritual beings doesn't mean it is just bread, does it?
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
i do so love this thread. long may it wind!
just to intrude though, as i understand it, e-bay forbids the sale of human parts, so relics that were bones or anything like that would not be allowed. (which is not to say things don't get posted, but they pull them when someone points it out to the managment.)
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
Well, as for me and my household, we wouldn't consider our Gort an "iconoclast" because strictly speaking, to be an iconoclast you have to smash an actual icon, declaring the veneration of icons to be idolatry while you do your smashing.
All I've ever seen Gort do is make the earth stand still. I don't think that quite qualifies, since he desists on command and goes back into his flying saucer.
Leetle M.
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Well, as for me and my household, we wouldn't consider our Gort an "iconoclast" because strictly speaking, to be an iconoclast you have to smash an actual icon, declaring the veneration of icons to be idolatry while you do your smashing.
All I've ever seen Gort do is make the earth stand still. I don't think that quite qualifies, since he desists on command and goes back into his flying saucer.
Leetle M.
Gort is appearing to be the worst type of iconoclast. He can't even be arsed to smash one, instead promoting feeling good with PoMo fuzzy speak, which means whatever you want it to mean.
Even bad publicity from someone that is active in smashing the icons is better than being ignored by those promoting fuzzy language.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
quote:
Even bad publicity from someone that is active in smashing the icons is better than being ignored by those promoting fuzzy language.
Oh, The Bede's American Successor, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. If it were my icon being smashed, I'd much rather listen to a little talk that sounded like drivel to me than see a very beloved saint's face ripped from behind its silver reza.
Besides, is it really PoMo drivel he's peddling, or is he simply going back to his "method acting"?
Leetle M.
To each his (or her) own
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, I guess it had to happen......
Another wafer 'blessed' by His Holiness John Paul II is on offer on eBay, this time from a seller in the UK (one 'fozziechinook' from Southampton, Hants.).
It is item #6171703649 - the opening bid is £100, but the 'Buy It Now' price is £5000, no less. The seller says that it belonged to his grandmother, a devout RC, and was received by her at a Papal Mass at the Vatican in 1996. He also states that he requires evidence from the buyer that the latter will not use it for any ulterior purpose.
I have added it to my own eBay watch list (for observation purposes only, you understand!).
Comments.........?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
quote:
Even bad publicity from someone that is active in smashing the icons is better than being ignored by those promoting fuzzy language.
Oh, The Bede's American Successor, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. If it were my icon being smashed, I'd much rather listen to a little talk that sounded like drivel to me than see a very beloved saint's face ripped from behind its silver reza.
Besides, is it really PoMo drivel he's peddling, or is he simply going back to his "method acting"?
Leetle M.
To each his (or her) own
Remember "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" to understand what I mean.
You know where a true iconoclast is coming from, and where he is going. And, ultimately, as much as all right-thinking Christians deplore the destroying the icon, we know that we worship just God alone. We venerate icons. We honor the eucharist. So, who has the iconoclast hurt but himself or herself?
Meanwhile, the PoMo iconoclast destroys the souls of others with their Fuzzy Logic. For example, Spong conflates resurrection with resuscitation is his writing. How many people has he helped load onto those turbocharged baskets on the multi-lane Highway to Hell in denying the human need for outward and visible signs?
Give me a real iconoclast any day over some PoMo iconoclast.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, I guess it had to happen......
Another wafer 'blessed' by His Holiness John Paul II is on offer on eBay, this time from a seller in the UK (one 'fozziechinook' from Southampton, Hants.).
It is item #6171703649 - the opening bid is £100, but the 'Buy It Now' price is £5000, no less. The seller says that it belonged to his grandmother, a devout RC, and was received by her at a Papal Mass at the Vatican in 1996. He also states that he requires evidence from the buyer that the latter will not use it for any ulterior purpose.
I have added it to my own eBay watch list (for observation purposes only, you understand!).
Comments.........?
Ian J.
Oh great (sarcastic), I've emailed him with the hope that he will reconsider this and take it to his nearest Roman Catholic Diocese to be dealt with. If he is so concerned about it going to the wrong person then he would do this, hopefully he will *bites lip very very hard*
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It is item #6171703649 - the opening bid is £100, but the 'Buy It Now' price is £5000, no less. The seller says that it belonged to his grandmother, a devout RC, and was received by her at a Papal Mass at the Vatican in 1996.
Oh yes? Only owned once before, by an old lady who regularly went to church? Heard that one before. Nice try, doesn't hold water. What would his grandmother think of him selling it?
If he's really worried about it going to a good home, he could always give it to the priests at his grandmother's favourite church.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well done, 103.......but I'm afraid he's probably more likely to leave It on eBay in the hope that someone will part with five thousand sovs for It......
I did check eBay's Listing Policy, but it wasn't terribly helpful and I couldn't really see whether this was likely to be a prohibited item or not. Given the earlier sale of another wafer, I doubt it.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just to add to the above.....
I've also emailed the seller, and asked him to provide proof that what he is offering is indeed a consecrated wafer. Fair enough, I think - if he wants proof of bona-fides from the buyer, the buyer needs the same from him. I await his reply with interest.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It is item #6171703649 - the opening bid is £100, but the 'Buy It Now' price is £5000, no less. The seller says that it belonged to his grandmother, a devout RC, and was received by her at a Papal Mass at the Vatican in 1996.
Oh yes? Only owned once before, by an old lady who regularly went to church? Heard that one before. Nice try, doesn't hold water. What would his grandmother think of him selling it?
If he's really worried about it going to a good home, he could always give it to the priests at his grandmother's favourite church.
Wait a sec. That means that the priests at his grandmother's favourite church will know that she was the kind of old lady who smuggled out the Precious Body of Our Lord in her handbag. And, if you believe the Blessed Sigmund Freud, a handbag is very rarely just a handbag.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just to add to the above.....
I've also emailed the seller, and asked him to provide proof that what he is offering is indeed a consecrated wafer. Fair enough, I think - if he wants proof of bona-fides from the buyer, the buyer needs the same from him. I await his reply with interest.
Ian J.
Probably that piece of soggy mother's pride! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Siena
Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574
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Posted
Good idea, 103 - keep us posted if you receive a reply.
I was afraid the successful sale of one would spawn a bunch of imitators, and it apparently has. Jackals.
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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson
Posts: 709 | From: San Diego, California, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Wait a sec. That means that the priests at his grandmother's favourite church will know that she was the kind of old lady who smuggled out the Precious Body of Our Lord in her handbag. And, if you believe the Blessed Sigmund Freud, a handbag is very rarely just a handbag.
Good thinking, Amos. Someone check the seller's list of previously sold items and see if his grandmother's on it (or her handbag). If so, we can track her down and blackmail her.
Incidentally I happen to have in my possession a feather from the wing of the Angel Gabriel, and a fragment of the halo of St Uncumber, left to me by an old lady that I once helped to cross a busy road. What more fitting tribute to her memory than to offer them to my shipmates. I am sure if you all pooled your money, you could come up with the £2m that I am looking for.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Can we do a deal off eBay, please, Ariel?
Fozziechinook only has 26 transactions to his credit on eBay, mostly purchases as far as I can tell. The most recent one was a 'horror story' sort of novel....
I'll let you know if he replies (and so, I expect, will 103 - I'm with you on this one, mate).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Wait a sec. That means that the priests at his grandmother's favourite church will know that she was the kind of old lady who smuggled out the Precious Body of Our Lord in her handbag. And, if you believe the Blessed Sigmund Freud, a handbag is very rarely just a handbag.
Good thinking, Amos. Someone check the seller's list of previously sold items and see if his grandmother's on it (or her handbag). If so, we can track her down and blackmail her.
Incidentally I happen to have in my possession a feather from the wing of the Angel Gabriel, and a fragment of the halo of St Uncumber, left to me by an old lady that I once helped to cross a busy road. What more fitting tribute to her memory than to offer them to my shipmates. I am sure if you all pooled your money, you could come up with the £2m that I am looking for.
The more desirable and verifiable relic of St Uncumber would be a hair from her beard. If what you have is one of those (a hair of St. Uncumber's, I mean, not a beard of your own) please PM me, and we'll talk.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
If you toasted a host does Jesus become brown bread?
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
What I want to know is theologically does anything happen to you for selling relics? I do realize that such things often occured in the old RCC before a little housekeeping (and a dude called Martin Luther) but has there been some sort of Papal pronoucement over the ages?
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
If you toasted a host does Jesus become brown bread?
O Hell Host:
Why would toasting you or Sarkcow or RooK turn Jesus brown? It might turn you brown, or black, or leave you with grill marks along one side, of course. But...
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Why would toasting you or Sarkcow or RooK turn Jesus brown?
John
We are all of one Body?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling).
Go on, 103 - I dare you to email him/her/them and ask what they intend to do with It if they win It.......!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling).
Go on, 103 - I dare you to email him/her/them and ask what they intend to do with It if they win It.......!
Ian J.
I did the same with the winner of the other auction and recieved no reply!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
This is getting silly - another new buyer from the USA ('123tralfaz200000005') has placed a bid and pushed the price up to £5,101..........
I smell a rat..........
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling).
Go on, 103 - I dare you to email him/her/them and ask what they intend to do with It if they win It.......!
Ian J.
Hmmm - I'm not sure if that was the right thing to do either. It's gonna cost the knights of St Columbus a bomb to get that back!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I've just noticed that The Wafer belonged to the seller's late mother (so no proof of provenance there). I mentioned above that it was his grandmother's, so I'm not sure if I made a mistake or whether he has since altered the description....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
IRC it's even in the old Prayer Book (Can a BCP User check that for me)
BCP User to the rescure.
The rubrics for Holy Communion are silent on the matter of consuming the host in front of the minister, but they do helpfully direct:
quote:
after that to the people also in order, into their hands, all meekly kneeling.
which reminds us that if the people are meekly kneeling, it would presumably be somewhat more difficult for them to wander off with Jesus.
I was once directed by a minister not to consume the Body of Our Lord. I was in a Methodist church where the local custom was to receive by intinction. I do not intinct, so when the (not soggy) Mother's Pride was handed to me, I made ready to eat it. The Minister, noticing my intention, quietly discouraged me and waved me over to the ceramic communion cup for the dipping.
I suppose had he not stopped me, I would have had to content myself with communing in one kind only.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
There's not just bits of God on sale at ebay. Your vote is worth up to 6 quid.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
I suppose had he not stopped me, I would have had to content myself with communing in one kind only.
I regularly recieve in one kind only. Sometimes it's the best way if you have a cold, I too don't dip.. but only because last time I tried I dropped the host ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
-103
[Lonely loser. Has even Preview Post mocked you scornfully and left you alone?]
[ 18. April 2005, 22:20: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Yeah - stupid UBB Code. I missed the 2minutes!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling). <snip>
haeriie fairies - could I have a phonetic break down of that one? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Perhaps s/he has a secret intention to come out here to remote OZ and drive to one of the even more remote locations and deliver communion by extension?
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
What I want to know is theologically does anything happen to you for selling relics?
I'd like to sell a sacred relic, but I have to get it roadworthy first.
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Reverting to the auction of The Wafer, there is a suggestion that those bidding are, in fact, Shipmates......presumably acting as a sort of eBay equivalent of sock-puppets. Perhaps the idea is to bump the price up to such a ridiculous level that eBay managers catch on and withdraw the item.
The first bid was actually for more than the £5000 'Buy It Now' price, so therefore was probably not from a 'genuine' buyer.
If all this causes the seller trouble and strife, serve him jolly well right!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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rosamundi
Ship's lacemaker
# 2495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The wafer has received a bid, from a new buyer (registered on eBay today and resident in the USA) who rejoices in the user ID of 'aprilthesevtiethinthethirdageofmankind' (I kid you not! - and I have copied the exact spelling). <snip>
haeriie fairies - could I have a phonetic break down of that one?
At a guess: 'april the sevtieth in the third age of mankind'
I have no idea what it means, mind.
And as for selling relics - it's grounds for excommunication. You can make a small charge for the reliquary or shipping & handling, but selling the relic itself is forbidden.
Deborah
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Website.
Ship of Fools flickr group
Posts: 2382 | From: here or there | Registered: Mar 2002
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
- might there be the possibility that the [possibly] coming flood of alleged JPII related wafers on eBay might just be rather akin to the Berlin Wall fragment souvenirs that apparently could build said wall 3 times over if they were all put together?
I'm especially unconvinced by the "one careful lady owner" nature of the current seller.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed yes, luvanddaisies - hence my email to the latest seller asking him for proof of consecration!
No reply yet, of course (and none expected), but if, as I said above, he just gets hassle over the wafer (and no cash), it may well put other entrepreneurs (aka con-men) off.
As far as excommunication is concerned, this can surely only apply if the person concerned is RC in the first place (and if they've lapsed, it presumably wouldn't bother them anyway - until they are lying on their deathbed, perhaps).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Exiled Youth
Shipmate
# 8744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Indeed yes, luvanddaisies - hence my email to the latest seller asking him for proof of consecration! [snippity-snip]
What proof would you accept then?
And no, of course they won't get any money, enough real presence believers use ebay (I would think) to know that some ridiculous bidding and non-payment from a sock puppet will put an end to most of this type of thing.
But I really am interested in what kind of proof you're looking for...
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Gold from Egypt is still gold -- St. Augustine of Hippo
Posts: 411 | From: Home Sweet Home | Registered: Nov 2004
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
quote:
Give me a real iconoclast any day over some PoMo iconoclast.
Sure, The Bede's American Successor, but the difference is, I don't think all of the iconoclasts, as you style them, mean deliberate harm. You're right about Spong, but I haven't seen anybody that bad off on the Ship so far.
Give the Robot a break, for now, anyway.
Leetle M.
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Exiled Youth, I really have no idea what I would be looking for in the way of proof - if, indeed, any such thing (in this context) exists!
I merely wished to point out to the seller that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - i.e., if he wants proof of the buyer's bona fides, then it is only fair for him to confirm in some way (and that's his problem) that he is offering the genuine article. Of course, he can't do so, and the whole business is thereby rendered suspect - but, as you say, there are enough people on eBay to sink it quite easily.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Give the Robot a break, for now, anyway.
Dorothy, do you know where the Robot's oil can is?
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
An odd twist - the first wafer mentioned on this thread (which sold for $2000) appears to be for sale again, this time by someone in Sheffield, Yorkshire, UK! The 'Buy It Now' price is £1.99........
For reference, the item is #6172114575.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I've just noticed that The Wafer belonged to the seller's late mother (so no proof of provenance there). I mentioned above that it was his grandmother's, so I'm not sure if I made a mistake or whether he has since altered the description....
You mean she left Jesus to him in her will? I've heard of some odd legacies, but really...
The application for probate must have been interesting, especially the executor's affidavit of assets of the estate:
"... One musical jug with figure of Harry Lauder in Highland dress, plays "I Love A Lassie"
One host, the Precious Body of Our Lord (consecrated 1996 by His Holiness Pope John Paul II)
Wedgewood dinner service for twelve with serving plates and gravy boat..."
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
An odd twist - the first wafer mentioned on this thread (which sold for $2000) appears to be for sale again, this time by someone in Sheffield, Yorkshire, UK! The 'Buy It Now' price is £1.99........
For reference, the item is #6172114575.
Ian J.
The item includes various links along the lines of "How I made 50,000 pounds in a week". They look distinctly dodgy and one of them seems to involve a spam scheme.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort: [in response to Bede's command that Philipp Melancthon "get thee behind me"...implying that I am a "receptionist"]
quote:
... As years went by he even abandoned Luther's doctrine as to the Last Supper, and looked on Christ's spiritual communication of Himself to the faithful and their internal union with Him as the essential feature of the Sacrament... [my italics]
Seems like a reasonable man to me.
...and wrong.
Since when is faith reasonable. It is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.
I respond with:
quote:
As for me, faith will remain a force independent of dogmatic religous definition.
Bede responds:
quote:
How do you have "reason" without "definitions"? Or, do you admit only the definitions you like?
I respond with:
quote:
That's dogmatic religous definitions, Bede. I have no problem with definition so long as it isn't cloaked in ancient symbols that are swallowed by rote.
Bede responds:
quote:
Aren't you making an assumption or three here? Particularly the swallowed the rote part.
I respond [among other things]:
quote:
Are you assuming that I implied you swallow ancient symbols by rote, Bede?
It's late, I go to bed and return the next day to find Mr. Bede has ignored my clarifications and questions and has decided to label me as the following:
- a PoMo iconoclast who destroys the souls of others with my Fuzzy Logic
- promoting feeling good with PoMo fuzzy speak
- the worst type of iconoclast
So, Bede's American Successor: In an unhellish sense of Christian brotherhood, I ask you, exactly which of my statements in the last two pages conflict with your tradition as an Anglican and a faithful servant of the Lord Jesus Christ?
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
err...make that "your tradition as an Episcopalian".
[ 19. April 2005, 02:44: Message edited by: Gort ]
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
{shakes head}
If we admit that this is a validly consecrated Host, then the range of possibilities for it is somewhat narrow.
(1) One can eat it, and thereby participate in the Communion of Saints of the Universal Church (if one is baptized and confirmed therein; if not, all bets are off);
(2) one can "use" it in a "Black Mass" to order up all sorts of unspeakable abominations, laboring under the mistaken belief that the Spirit of God would be so fucking stupid that He would allow all sorts of mischief to happen if people were able to "discern" the Body of Christ in the host but not to honor it--an impossibility;
(3) one could keep it as a souvenir of a rite in which they did not participate. At some point in the future, they might spray it in plastic and put it in a frame or monstrance--not for the purpose of veneration, but for "admiration."
It won't work. Things on this earth take on supernatural agency because we allow them to and agree to the grace. Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus beause we say "Amen." The transubstantiion of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent.
Like most evil, bad things can't happen unless we say "yes" to them.
So it's silly to get all worked up about this. In the presence of a Host consecrated by John Paul II, I would make a genuflection. But I would do the same at any host consecrated by any priest. The mojo doesn't get greater the more important you are.
We are given the grace to be in the presence of God. We will always be confronted by the dominical words: "This is my body, broken for you."
The evil of this world cannot desecrate this Host. In the face of the Sacrifice that redeemed us, it stands, like any other Host, as a testament to the redemption of Jesus Christ. People who encounter it can either say "amen" or not. The God who redeemed the world will not be bolluxed by a souvenir-seller on E-bay.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
The evil of this world cannot desecrate this Host. In the face of the Sacrifice that redeemed us, it stands, like any other Host, as a testament to the redemption of Jesus Christ. People who encounter it can either say "amen" or not. The God who redeemed the world will not be bolluxed by a souvenir-seller on E-bay.
True - but here's a mystery. The original item was apparently purchased and reverently disposed of. Yet here is the self-same article still being offered for sale. It suggests fraud.
I agree that the Eucharist itself cannot be desecrated by definition, for it would make God subject to the evil of his created world - but what it represents can be cheapened, made into just another souvenir - made crass, as I said before. I think the correct word is "scandal" rather than desecration. Consumer fraud adds a further tawdry air to the affair.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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