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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Blasphemous desecration
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Tomb:
[...] Things on this earth take on supernatural agency because we allow them to and agree to the grace. Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus beause we say "Amen." The transubstantiation of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent...
Finally, a voice of reason.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
Wow, tomb, what a post. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
This is a great, great thread. Its mojo has brought out Tomb.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
So, Bede's American Successor: In an unhellish sense of Christian brotherhood, I ask you, exactly which of my statements in the last two pages conflict with your tradition as an Anglican and a faithful servant of the Lord Jesus Christ?
One, I was pushing a bit for the fun of it.
Still, Receptionism is problematic. I am not worried about what happens to the crumbs we can't find when cleaning up. What he gets himself into, He can get himself out of.
For that matter, I know my God is bigger than what any someone could do with a consecrated host during a Black Mass. I would be more worried about God's feelings about those that say they believe, but do not perceive.
When all is said and done, my Lord has promised to be present in the Sacrament—whether or not I or any one else believes.
You also seem to automatically reject dogma. While we are encouraged to work out our own salvation—for it is the Lord working in us—that does not mean we are free to go our own ways. The Bonds of Affection extend to our forebearers in the faith, too.
Still, remember that I was pushing a bit to stimulate something. Ultimately, it is Jesus who saves us, not our acceptance of anything.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I agree that the Eucharist itself cannot be desecrated by definition, for it would make God subject to the evil of his created world
The BCP (presumably in use at 103's church, though not JPII's) holds that:
quote:
Article XXIX: Of the Wicked which do not eat the Body of Christ in the use of the Lord's Supper
The Wicked, and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as Saint Augustine saith) the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ...
"in no wise" is both comprehensive and emphatic - Satanists who seek either to use or to desecrate the Sacrament do not receive Jesus in any way whatsoever. They do not take him into their hearts, nor their souls, nor their mouths, nor their fannies.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Amazing Grace*
Shipmate
# 4754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
quote:
Give me a real iconoclast any day over some PoMo iconoclast.
Sure, The Bede's American Successor, but the difference is, I don't think all of the iconoclasts, as you style them, mean deliberate harm. You're right about Spong, but I haven't seen anybody that bad off on the Ship so far.
Amen, sister!
Although I think this is a first in just how Spong is being used as a weapon here ...
quote:
Give the Robot a break, for now, anyway.
Indeed. I think Bede's PoMo Detection Meter has gone a bit haywire.
Charlotte
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.sig on vacation
Posts: 2594 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
quote:
do you know where the Robot's oil can is?
I think he found it himself, The Bede's American Successor, right where he left it on the Yellow Brick Road.
He seems to be running much smoother now.
Leetle M.
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Tomb:
[...] Things on this earth take on supernatural agency because we allow them to and agree to the grace. Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus beause we say "Amen." The transubstantiation of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent...
Finally, a voice of reason.
...that is problematic.
The validity of a sacrament is not dependent on what humans say. The validity of a sacrament is dependent on what God says.
Aslan is not a tame lion, subject to human will or assent.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Article XXIX: Of the Wicked which do not eat the Body of Christ in the use of the Lord's Supper
The Wicked, and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as Saint Augustine saith) the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ...
"in no wise" is both comprehensive and emphatic - Satanists who seek either to use or to desecrate the Sacrament do not receive Jesus in any way whatsoever. They do not take him into their hearts, nor their souls, nor their mouths, nor their fannies.
Another good reason why the ECUSA has never adopted them.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
I am not perfect. 103 is not perfect. You are not perfect. So, why don't we all say the General Confession like Charles and Camilla and try to encourage one another.
You really haven't got the hang of Hell; encouragement belongs in All Saints. 103 foolishly put something on a discussion board and then got annoyed when it was discussed.
I am intentionally going back a few pages to respond to this now.
Looking at some recent responses to my posts, it seems as if people don't recognize hellishness unless you use one of George Carlin's "Seven Dirty Words."
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Although I think this is a first in just how Spong is being used as a weapon here ...
It is called "synthesis" and "evaluation" on Bloom's Taxonomy. You might try learning enough about a subject to try it sometime.
quote:
Indeed. I think Bede's PoMo Detection Meter has gone a bit haywire.
I think some people need to learn to recognize other forms of hellishness. Gort's Groupies must think he can't find his own oil can these days.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I agree that the Eucharist itself cannot be desecrated by definition, for it would make God subject to the evil of his created world
The BCP (presumably in use at 103's church, though not JPII's)
Nope, There are about 3 copies somewhere but most people adopt the BCP=BOE approach to it!
Also an update to the ebay host - the current bid price is:
Ł10,000,000.00
Wow! All the bids have been made by first time bidders with really randon names except one who tried to bid Ł100,000 and he/she has 38 sucessful bids but was outbid by another first time bidder.
How long will it be before Novus Ordo Watch takes notice?
-103
[ 19. April 2005, 16:05: Message edited by: 103 (One-O-Three) ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just to update 103's post, the wafer which reached Ł10 million and the one I mentioned yesterday with a 'Buy It Now' price of Ł1.99 have been withdrawn by eBay and the transactions cancelled.
Common sense, at least, has prevailed.
Deo gratias!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
Does this mean I'm not getting my ten million quid? But I just baked the little wafers!
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just to update 103's post, the wafer which reached Ł10 million and the one I mentioned yesterday with a 'Buy It Now' price of Ł1.99 have been withdrawn by eBay and the transactions cancelled.
Common sense, at least, has prevailed.
Deo gratias!
Ian J.
Fear not: It's the Pope JPII-shaped chicken breast!
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
[...] I think some people need to learn to recognize other forms of hellishness. Gort's Groupies must think he can't find his own oil can these days.
Jealousy rears its ugly green head. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Come ladies...let's find another table. It's getting stuffy over here.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Corpus cani
Ship's Anachronism
# 1663
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Posted
A great fourteen pages, but life moves forward.
I happen to possess a wafer consecrated by HH Pope John Paul III when he was still Cardinal Ratface. It was smuggled out of the Lateran [see how Traditional I can be... Whahahahaha!] by my Great Grandmother who, having ducked to escape the all-embracing clutch and hiss of -100 (-103's Great Grandfather), delivered body blows to the 6' 4" [shorter than I! Ha!] Guardians of the Sanctuary and threw herself through a stained glass window of St Margaret of Antioch [or some other minor canonisation] before escaping to full communion with the CofE and all stations west.
If the shipmates who consider themselves more catholic* than I do not forward to me
Ł1 000 000 000 000
(that's billion for our colonial brethren who have never managed the counting thing)
then I will personally arrange for Lucifer [i.e. the "Rev'd" Tony Bliar] to be loosed from his chains. MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Corpus cani
c/o The Mothers' Union, Trumpton, Trumptonshire, UK
[*should read catholic / orthodox / methodist / anybody else that has money... oh, sorry - of course methodists don't have money any more. Reckitts was such a bummer...]
[Correct my own name... bugger... who the f**k is Corpus Cain? Tony Bliar is, however, not an error!]
[ 19. April 2005, 23:17: Message edited by: Corpus cani ]
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Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.
Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corpus cani:
A great fourteen pages, but life moves forward.
I happen to possess a wafer consecrated by HH Pope John Paul III when he was still Cardinal Ratface. It was smuggled out of the Lateran [see how Traditional I can be... Whahahahaha!] by my Great Grandmother who, having ducked to escape the all-embracing clutch and hiss of -100 (-103's Great Grandfather), delivered body blows to the 6' 4" [shorter than I! Ha!] Guardians of the Sanctuary and threw herself through a stained glass window of St Margaret of Antioch [or some other minor canonisation] before escaping to full communion with the CofE and all stations west.
If the shipmates who consider themselves more catholic* than I do not forward to me
Ł1 000 000 000 000
(that's billion for our colonial brethren who have never managed the counting thing)
then I will personally arrange for Lucifer [i.e. the "Rev'd" Tony Bliar] to be loosed from his chains. MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Corpus cani
c/o The Mothers' Union, Trumpton, Trumptonshire, UK
[*should read catholic / orthodox / methodist / anybody else that has money... oh, sorry - of course methodists don't have money any more. Reckitts was such a bummer...]
[Correct my own name... bugger... who the f**k is Corpus Cain? Tony Bliar is, however, not an error!]
<Slight Tangent>
It's not "-103" btw everybody, I just sign myself with a - before my name because that's what I have always done! It's just "103"
</Slight TAngent>
Although now that Ratzinger is Pope, will he condemn numbers and will it have to become CIII?
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Corpus cani
Ship's Anachronism
# 1663
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Posted
Oh well PARDON ME sonny. Your name is "103" it's not "-103" but you just sign yourself with a "-". Forgive me for not reading your mind and knowing what 'twas you meant. Maybe you could learn from the lesson I teach my twelve year olds.... WRITE WHAT YOU MEAN.
OK, I might put it more kindly to them but, actually, I don't, so why should you get away with it?
Has it crossed your mind that some of us on this site have better things to do with our time than wonder whether teenage old-lady-beaters choose to spell their name with or without a "-"? Some of us are concered with serious matters, like people stealing our Lord from his (sorry, His) little cage above the altar. Some of we 6'4" Anglo-Catholics are engaged in protecting the MBS here.
If you wanna be wunna us, learnda speak propa.
An make sure people stop dissin' dis good Pope.
Cc
Ps [Resume English (i.e. normal) accent] What does "dissin' " mean???]
Confused Nearly Middle Aged But Sadly "Out Of It" Person...
[ 20. April 2005, 00:23: Message edited by: Corpus cani ]
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Bishop Lord Corpus Cani the Tremulous of Buzzing St Helens.
Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
"Dissin'" is a shortened form of "disrespecting", which is not a word.
Leetle M.
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
"Dissin'" is a shortened form of "disrespecting", which is not a word.
What qualities of words does it lack?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Tomb, I so wish I had a pastor like you at some point in my young Christian development.
(Gort-- weirdly enough, you can always count on tomb to be the voice or reason around here.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
<snip>
I agree that the Eucharist itself cannot be desecrated by definition, for it would make God subject to the evil of his created world - but what it represents can be cheapened, made into just another souvenir - made crass, as I said before. I think the correct word is "scandal" rather than desecration. Consumer fraud adds a further tawdry air to the affair.
Which is what we do whenever we commercialize the sacred - be it with turnstyles and tacky plastic Jesuses in our cathedrals, Holman Hunt pictures in a 10 cent frame (not that they deserve more than a ten cent frame) sacred toenails of St Swithin, whoopee Spirit who flops you over in a rar-rah riot of quasi sexual frenzy and then flogs you a Tim LaHaye book to save your soul ...
God knows we walk all over the sacred in our hobnail boots, crunching loudly to drown out the still small voice or the sounds of silence ...
In other words all our traditions have serious fuckedness inbred and only when we dig around to find our own integrity of faith as small individuals and communities will we escape the noise of desecration
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Hey 103, I have a question for you. It relates to this post in Purg, but I figured your answer might be Hellish.
My question is this: Do you already consider the sacrament at your church to be invalid, or are you going to wait until you jump ship to adopt that opinion?
[fixed the link]
[ 20. April 2005, 12:51: Message edited by: Scot ]
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
"Dissin'" is a shortened form of "disrespecting", which is not a word.
Actually, "dis" is in some dictionaries, particularly The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
Yes, The Bede's American Successor, "dis" is a dialect word in some dictionaries. If you wish to use it, I don't mind.
I just have an aversion to the practice of making verbs out of nouns, but that's another thread.
Leetle M.
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Yes, The Bede's American Successor, "dis" is a dialect word in some dictionaries. If you wish to use it, I don't mind.
I just have an aversion to the practice of making verbs out of nouns, but that's another thread.
Leetle M.
Actually, dis is a verb, according to the dictionary.
By the way, do you salt your vegetables, or do you apply salt to them?
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Do you defibrillate your heart? or apply a defribrillator?
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
If you can respect somebody, I don't see why you can't disrespect them. I confess when first I heard "disrespected" used as a verb, I was a little surprised.
If something is used by a significant number of people(whatever that is) to convey a uniform and accepted meaning, it is foolish to say it isn't a word. New words are added to dictionaries every day, because the language is in constant flux and growth. A truism I learned in school: a true lexicographer is a historian, not a lawgiver. If you find the word clumsy, ugly, or imbued with unacceptable connotations, then don't use it.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
Excuse me while I defibrillate my brain....
Sorry!
Leetle M.
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Hey 103, I have a question for you. It relates to this post in Purg, but I figured your answer might be Hellish.
My question is this: Do you already consider the sacrament at your church to be invalid, or are you going to wait until you jump ship to adopt that opinion?
Firstly - get the link right! http://http:// indeed!
Secondly - Why do you think I'm jumping ship? I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament. I feel that a lot of communions around the Anglican Communion are damaged, because some ministers DO NOT believe in Real Presence, Transubstatiation or what not, they believe it is just bread and wine. So how can I expect to believe that their communion is the same as the mass that I go to?
I refuse to accept that Women can possibly be ordained as priests so their mass is definatly not the same as the mass that I go to!
If I didn't have a problem with the Anglican Communion I wouldn't feel the need to leave, I'd be perfectly happy in my little AC Center which pretends it has nothing to do with the rest of the Church and does it's own little thing. But there is a problem and I feel that I should get out.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) So that would rule out pretty much every Anglican church but your own?
So why not go play altar-dementor for the Catholics, then?
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Secondly - Why do you think I'm jumping ship? I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament.
-103
Well, 103. Oh pardon, despite what you've written that's not your name, apparently. Many apologies. (Anything else you write we're supposed to not take seriously? Just so we can get it right, you understand.)
I'd be glad to hear some clarification from some of our Catholic shipmates who can confirm, or not, that Anglican orders are not valid, from the perspective of the RCC. If Anglican orders are not valid, does it or does it not follow that Anglican sacraments are not valid? Or is there indeed, as 103 seems to imagine (perhaps rightly) a dispensation that allows for the Anglican holy communion he is part of at his own church to be considered 'valid' in a Catholic sense?
Or is he just wanting his wafer and eating it?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Secondly - Why do you think I'm jumping ship? I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament,
Well once you jump ship that will be what you sign up to since that is RC's official position. Your priest at the moment will be longer a priest in your eyes. Your new opinion would be that any bread blessed by an Anglican Priest is just a bit of bread.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
[idle wondering] how long is hell's longest ever thread ?[/idle wondering]
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament.
Would damaged sacraments be sold at a discount on eBay?
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I feel that a lot of communions around the Anglican Communion are damaged, because some ministers DO NOT believe in Real Presence, Transubstatiation or what not, they believe it is just bread and wine.
So it's down to the personal beliefs of the individual minister? I doubt whether your future RCC instructors will agree. I wonder how you will feel in a year's time, when you realize that the cracker you attacked some woman over wasn't Jesus after all.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Son of a Preacher Man
Shipmate
# 5460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I'd be glad to hear some clarification from some of our Catholic shipmates who can confirm, or not, that Anglican orders are not valid, from the perspective of the RCC. If Anglican orders are not valid, does it or does it not follow that Anglican sacraments are not valid?
Or is he just wanting his wafer and eating it?
No matter what the answer to the first question is, the answer to the second is a definite Yes.
[ 20. April 2005, 13:22: Message edited by: Son of a Preacher Man ]
Posts: 218 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Amazing Grace*
Shipmate
# 4754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I feel that a lot of communions around the Anglican Communion are damaged, because some ministers DO NOT believe in Real Presence, Transubstatiation or what not, they believe it is just bread and wine.
So it's down to the personal beliefs of the individual minister? I doubt whether your future RCC instructors will agree.
Even this "improperly catechized convert" (waves hi at Jennifer) knows that the Thirty-Nine Articles certainly don't. I'm sure there is some more modern expression of it in the C of E.
Charlotte
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.sig on vacation
Posts: 2594 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
If I didn't have a problem with the Anglican Communion I wouldn't feel the need to leave, I'd be perfectly happy in my little AC Center which pretends it has nothing to do with the rest of the Church and does it's own little thing. But there is a problem and I feel that I should get out.
-103
Then put your money where your hypocritical mouth is and fucking GO ALREADY. Jesus, the day you ever decide to walk all your fucking talk will be cause for celebration for Anglicans worldwide. Just get the fuck out already, you whining little shitstain. GO.
All you other Roman wannabes can get the fuck out, too.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I would never say that any sacrament is invalid sacrament, but I think there is such thing as a damaged sacrament.
Would damaged sacraments be sold at a discount on eBay?
Do they have scratch-and-dent sales for sacraments? Factory irregulars?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think that MY church has an invalid sacrament, but I think that churches with Women Priests, Common Worship Order 2 Mass, BCP Mass and churches that do not see the Sacrament as important enough to reserve inportant enough as a "Complete Sacrament"
So masses offered using the BCP or CW - both approved liturgies - are "damaged" but those using whatever freaky unapproved liturgy your church prefers are not. Hmmmm.
So in your opinion the Mass is some sort of magic ceremony that gets spoilt if a Priest uses the wrong words? How weak is your God, that he is scared off by the BCP!
quote:
my little AC Center which pretends it has nothing to do with the rest of the Church and does it's own little thing.
This, of course, is the heart of it. If -103's church were to cross the Tiber, it wouldn't be able to ignore the rest of the church and do its own little thing. Far from it. It'd have to respect the teachings of its heirarchy - even if it didn't agree with them, and use the approved liturgy - whether it liked it or not.
So -103's church, in trying to ape the Romans is, ironically, expressing a freedom the Romans would never allow. It's being remarkably Anglican, in fact.
I can just about believe that -103 is too young and stupid to appreciate that. (What am I saying? -103 is patently young, and is undoubtedly stupid!) But his priest, one assumes, isn't seventeen. So his priest, undoubtedly, is trying to have his wafer and eat it, even if -103 himself is oblivious.
Peronel.
[ 20. April 2005, 15:19: Message edited by: Peronel ]
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Tomb:
[...] Things on this earth take on supernatural agency because we allow them to and agree to the grace. Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus beause we say "Amen." The transubstantiation of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent...
Finally, a voice of reason.
TRANSLATION: Finally, someone who agrees with ME!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
If I didn't have a problem with the Anglican Communion I wouldn't feel the need to leave, I'd be perfectly happy in my little AC Center which pretends it has nothing to do with the rest of the Church and does it's own little thing. But there is a problem and I feel that I should get out.
-103
Then put your money where your hypocritical mouth is and fucking GO ALREADY. Jesus, the day you ever decide to walk all your fucking talk will be cause for celebration for Anglicans worldwide. Just get the fuck out already, you whining little shitstain. GO.
All you other Roman wannabes can get the fuck out, too.
I would if I could, but things are more complicated then that! At current I have no choice but to stick around at my church and I'll make the most of it, Until Benedict XVI, I would've hoped that the new pope would allow full communion between anglicans and RCs but that will not happen.
I'll get the fuck out when I can and then you can celebrate. Although, Us ACs could say the same about the evangelicals, why don't they get out of the CofE and join the baptists or the methodists?
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
BTW - I have no problem with CW Order One because it doesn't follow the BCP 1662 order of Holy Communion.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Although, Us ACs could say the same about the evangelicals, why don't they get out of the CofE and join the baptists or the methodists?
-103
... thus leaving the CofE to the MotR, prayer-book sorts who actually founded the sodding thing. That might actually be quite sensible. Although infinitely less fun, of course.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I would if I could, but things are more complicated then that! At current I have no choice but to stick around at my church
Bullshit. Unless your parents are forcibly dragging you into the church every week and sitting behind you on the altar with a gun pointed at your head, you damn well DO have a choice to go away. You may not be able to receive -- instead, you'll just have to sit in the pew and have it driven home just how catholic you are not, and how you are not even remotely part of Holy Mother Church, you're the ecclesial equivalent of a free church congregationalist to them, regardless of your protestations to the contrary -- but you fucking well can start going to your local RC parish. So you're a goddamned liar on top of it.
quote:
I'll get the fuck out when I can and then you can celebrate. Although, Us ACs could say the same about the evangelicals, why don't they get out of the CofE and join the baptists or the methodists?
If I were routinely subjected to the evangelicals sucking Baptist dick the way you flounce around here sucking Roman dick I'd say the same things about them. At least they're not taking every chance available (and many that are not) to tell the Anglican Communion how much they suck and how they can't wait to get out of it, like you do, except you WILL NOT LEAVE. I am sick to death of hearing it. So either suck it up and live with where you are, which means that you shut the fuck up about how goddamned wonderful Rome is, or be a man, grow a set, and get the fuck out.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
The transubstantiion of the elements is not because of magic, it is because of our assent.
And there I was thinking it ws because of the grace of God.
quote:
Like most evil, bad things can't happen unless we say "yes" to them.
Uh... I'm sure that's not what you really meant to say. Though if you meant that "like some other sorts of evil, this bad thing can't happen unless..." it would make sense.
quote:
The evil of this world cannot desecrate this Host. In the face of the Sacrifice that redeemed us, it stands, like any other Host, as a testament to the redemption of Jesus Christ. People who encounter it can either say "amen" or not. The God who redeemed the world will not be bolluxed by a souvenir-seller on E-bay.
That's certainly true though.
Almighty and eternal God is not damaged by what created beings do or say.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mad Cat
Shipmate
# 9104
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Posted
Seventeen whole years old..... I'd say 'Bless his wee holy socks' but he's really annoying me too much.
103, I hope I'm there the day you realise you don't have all the answers. <sarcasm>I won't be trembling with schadenfreude at all</sarcasm>
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Weird and sweary.
Posts: 1844 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2005
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