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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Blasphemous desecration
Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by kentishmaid:

quote:
See, that's not fair. I now have a vision of the Pope as Gandalf, which is probably highly irreverent......
Is Ecumenical Patriarch who is Gandalf! Was it beards on Benedict XVI or anyone else in the recent Conclave? Was Gandalf Latin Schismatic? No! Is outrage!

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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103 points out,

quote:
I know that the 39 articles aren't in the HC service, but they're in the same book which is implying that if you celebrate that service you agree to those rules.
They're in the same book! Brilliant! Now, when I visit an Anglican church, I'll have something to occupy my mind during the sermon....

(I'll get me Menaion....)

Leetle M.

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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Anselmina
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# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
103 points out,

quote:
I know that the 39 articles aren't in the HC service, but they're in the same book which is implying that if you celebrate that service you agree to those rules.
They're in the same book! Brilliant! Now, when I visit an Anglican church, I'll have something to occupy my mind during the sermon....

(I'll get me Menaion....)

Leetle M.

I wouldn't raise my hopes too high, if I were you!
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Justinian
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# 5357

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I never said I would leave the thread, I just said that my beliefs were not debatable.

-103

Despite a couple of subsequent pages to the contrary.

From what I can tell, your beliefs are Marxist. Groucho Marx - "I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member."

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I never said I would leave the thread, I just said that my beliefs were not debatable.

-103

Despite a couple of subsequent pages to the contrary.

From what I can tell, your beliefs are Marxist. Groucho Marx - "I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member."

My beliefs are not Marxist.
I don't agree with Marxism at all.

And Erin, look at my date of Birth and then work out what will be different in a year's time.

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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103, i think you are missing two points that people are trying to make to you.

firstly, although _you_ may believe that your communion is valid on the basis of not being done by a woman priest, the roman catholic church does not, because your church, no matter how flawlessly woman free, remains not roman catholic. so if you are planning on joining the roman catholic church because you agree with its teachings, either you will have to come to accept that the mass you enjoy so much now is, in fact, nothing at all, or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.

and the other thing is, even though you will be 18 in a year, how will that lessen the family upset if you leave your church and become roman catholic? will people no longer be upset because as an adult you can do as you please?

oh and three, the marxist thing was a joke. groucho marx, not karl. joke, funny, ha ha... got it?

[ 21. April 2005, 16:23: Message edited by: nicolemrw ]

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[qb]I'm not sure though about some other Anglican Churches (to which I wouldn't be allowed to be a Eucharistic Minister in anyway because I'm a member of Forward in Faith and most Anglican Churches in this area have Women priests

I assure you that we don't bar members of Forward in Faith from ministering in our churches. Whatever gave you the idea that we did?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
103, i think you are missing two points that people are trying to make to you.

firstly, although _you_ may believe that your communion is valid on the basis of not being done by a woman priest, the roman catholic church does not, because your church, no matter how flawlessly woman free, remains not roman catholic. so if you are planning on joining the roman catholic church because you agree with its teachings, either you will have to come to accept that the mass you enjoy so much now is, in fact, nothing at all, or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.

and the other thing is, even though you will be 18 in a year, how will that lessen the family upset if you leave your church and become roman catholic? will people no longer be upset because as an adult you can do as you please?

oh and three, the marxist thing was a joke. groucho marx, not karl. joke, funny, ha ha... got it?

Mom has always said "When you're 18 you can do as you please"
It also will be at a time when another women in our family will have calmed down over something that I can't really post on the internet. It just is something that has put her totally against RCs.

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Nicolemr
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ok, that addresses one point i made...

theres two more...

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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quantpole
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I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.

[cross-posted: responding to ken)

[ 21. April 2005, 16:30: Message edited by: quantpole ]

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Laura
General nuisance
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In caswe it hasn't been pointed out already somewhere in these million pages, according to Canon Law,

quote:
Can. 1367 A person who throws away the consecrated species or takes or retains them for a sacrilegious purpose incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; moreover, a cleric can be punished with another penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state.


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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.

No, that he won't, not can't.

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.

[cross-posted: responding to ken)

Exactly - I'm also should refrain from making a parish which isn't on "The safe list" my usual parish and I also should avoid recieving communion in a church which has a Women Minister on the clergy list.
It's actually quite difficult in this area to find a church that meets that criteria, which is one of the reasons that the RCC appeals so much, I could just go to mass at any church in any place without a problem, instead if I want to go to weekday mass I have to travel to my own parish church or if I'm not in the area I have to check the FiF Safe List if there aren't any parishes then I have to go to each church and check the clergy list, then find out if they actually DO weekday masses OR I can go to a RC Parish and just recieve a blessing (and recieve a spiritual communion)

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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quantpole
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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.

No, that he won't, not can't.
You're right...thought I'd have learned given the last 3 pages.
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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[qb]I'm not sure though about some other Anglican Churches (to which I wouldn't be allowed to be a Eucharistic Minister in anyway because I'm a member of Forward in Faith and most Anglican Churches in this area have Women priests

I assure you that we don't bar members of Forward in Faith from ministering in our churches. Whatever gave you the idea that we did?
What if they're women members? Oh wait, they bar themselves.....

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Mom has always said "When you're 18 you can do as you please"
It also will be at a time when another women in our family will have calmed down over something that I can't really post on the internet. It just is something that has put her totally against RCs.

-103

I assure you 103, that while when you're 18 your mother may permit you to do as you please, it doens't mean you still won't hear the end of it from her. If you're this close and it is a no go, trust me in a years' time, you'll still be getting the riot act even if you're "allowed" to convert.

Ah, the FiF safe list. Keeping people religious by telling them all the churches they can't go to, even to receive "spiritual" comunion. I don't get it, if your mother wouldn't be good enough to give you comunion or bless you, why does she get any way in which church you're a member of?

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
I think his point was that being a member of Forward in Faith means he can't minister in a church with female priests, not that those churches wouldn't let him.

Exactly - I'm also should refrain from making a parish which isn't on "The safe list" my usual parish and I also should avoid recieving communion in a church which has a Women Minister on the clergy list.

You said "wouldn't be allowed". As if someone else would stop you.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Nicolemr
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still waiting for a comment on my other two points, 103. (well, one at leas, you can forget about the marx joke if you want)

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Cosmo
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# 117

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Let's give the boy a break shall we? This is all getting rather personal (yes, I know this is Hell but even so) particularly as 103 is under 18. There isn't an age limit on this Board but even so.

He's a boy and he's struggling with all sorts of things of things. Can't we just leave his personal life and his parental relationships out of this?

Cosmo

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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No.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
It's actually quite difficult in this area to find a church that meets that criteria, which is one of the reasons that the RCC appeals so much, I could just go to mass at any church in any place without a problem, instead if I want to go to weekday mass I have to travel to my own parish church or if I'm not in the area I have to check the FiF Safe List

No no no. Being discontented with your own church and not wanting women priests and not liking this that and the other in the C of E are not (in my view, anyway) good reasons for wanting to pack in your membership and join the Catholics. Reading your posts to this thread so far, it sounds as if the only reasons you want to defect to Rome are negative reasons and that if any other denomination offered the female-free clergy option you'd consider them as well, equally if Rome suddenly started appointing women you'd be out of it like a shot.

If you still feel the same way in a year or so you are going to have to convince a priest that your reasons for joining are sound, so better start practising now.

I don't know, the more I read the more inclined I am to agree with your parents.

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
It's actually quite difficult in this area to find a church that meets that criteria, which is one of the reasons that the RCC appeals so much, I could just go to mass at any church in any place without a problem, instead if I want to go to weekday mass I have to travel to my own parish church or if I'm not in the area I have to check the FiF Safe List

No no no. Being discontented with your own church and not wanting women priests and not liking this that and the other in the C of E are not (in my view, anyway) good reasons for wanting to pack in your membership and join the Catholics. Reading your posts to this thread so far, it sounds as if the only reasons you want to defect to Rome are negative reasons and that if any other denomination offered the female-free clergy option you'd consider them as well, equally if Rome suddenly started appointing women you'd be out of it like a shot.

If you still feel the same way in a year or so you are going to have to convince a priest that your reasons for joining are sound, so better start practising now.

I don't know, the more I read the more inclined I am to agree with your parents.

Actually - I might be in favour of women priests if the Pope said it was ok but he hasn't so that's it!
Oh, and I have been in dialogue with a catholic priest since July 2004 and he and I both had very similar views on a lot of things as he went through exactly the same phase (he's a convert from Anglicanism) and he said he would be extremely happy to accept me into an RCIA course when I come to that point.

-103

-103

[ 21. April 2005, 17:34: Message edited by: 103 (One-O-Three) ]

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
... I have to check the FiF Safe List...

Oh! My! God! FiF really are the "Girls Have Cooties Club". [Killing me]

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Actually - I might be in favour of women priests if the Pope said it was ok but he hasn't so that's it!

Now wait a minute. You object to women priests in the C of E on what grounds? Scriptural?

Yet if the Pope decided it was all right you'd chuck away your interpretation of Scripture and the passionate anti-female-clergy stance you've embraced for some months now and suddenly start liking the idea?

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Nicolemr
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psssst.... 103, about those other points i made???????

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Now wait a minute. You object to women priests in the C of E on what grounds? Scriptural?

Yet if the Pope decided it was all right you'd chuck away your interpretation of Scripture and the passionate anti-female-clergy stance you've embraced for some months now and suddenly start liking the idea, and telling your FiF friends that they'd got it all wrong over the past years?

No - it's only partly scriptual and I think a lot of FiF people would be in agreement with me (my parish priest for one actually)
The ordination of Women broke a lot of relations between us and Rome and if anybody should have the decision on the ordination of women then it should be the Pope. Every single pope has refused the ordination of women, most possibly because it would break the unbroken chain of apostolic sucessions.
Also because every Pope has taken the view that "If Jesus would've wanted women priests then he would've had female deciples"
Only groups like "REFORM" think that women priests are a bad idea and have a entirely scriptual reason and I'm not at all like REFORM on that belief, it's all for other reasons.
I think this is a dead horses topic though so prehaps you might want to talk about FiF stuff and reasons in Priestly Genitalia.

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
103 points out,

quote:
I know that the 39 articles aren't in the HC service, but they're in the same book which is implying that if you celebrate that service you agree to those rules.
They're in the same book! Brilliant! Now, when I visit an Anglican church, I'll have something to occupy my mind during the sermon....

(I'll get me Menaion....)

Leetle M.

Does anyone else read the introduction to prayer books / hymn books / pew Bibles during boring sermons? (The Bible is safest - you can pretend you are cheking a reference.)

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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103, this is getting a bit rude don't you think? i'm begining to think you don't have any way to respond to what i said.

if thats the case, maybe you should think a little bit harder about what your planning on doing.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Ariel
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No, I don't want to talk about FiF stuff in Dead Horses, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, because it looks as if you're saying a variety of things, some of which appear to contradict each other.

Meanwhile, you might like to give some thought to answering Nicole, I think she'd appreciate a response.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Does anyone else read the introduction to prayer books / hymn books / pew Bibles during boring sermons? (The Bible is safest - you can pretend you are cheking a reference.)

Oh, absolutely. We had an absolutely dire interim priest a few years back--35-minute sermons that said nothing, except for the few times when they said something really, really wrong. I got very well acquainted with the historical documents printed in the back of the American BCP.
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Nicolemr
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thank you ariel.

in case you've lost track, 103, the relevant part was this:

quote:
firstly, although _you_ may believe that your communion is valid on the basis of not being done by a woman priest, the roman catholic church does not, because your church, no matter how flawlessly woman free, remains not roman catholic. so if you are planning on joining the roman catholic church because you agree with its teachings, either you will have to come to accept that the mass you enjoy so much now is, in fact, nothing at all, or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.



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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
103, i think you are missing two points that people are trying to make to you.

firstly, although _you_ may believe that your communion is valid on the basis of not being done by a woman priest, the roman catholic church does not, because your church, no matter how flawlessly woman free, remains not roman catholic. so if you are planning on joining the roman catholic church because you agree with its teachings, either you will have to come to accept that the mass you enjoy so much now is, in fact, nothing at all, or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.

and the other thing is, even though you will be 18 in a year, how will that lessen the family upset if you leave your church and become roman catholic? will people no longer be upset because as an adult you can do as you please?

oh and three, the marxist thing was a joke. groucho marx, not karl. joke, funny, ha ha... got it?

It won't lessen it, but it'll hopefully be easier to take.
And as for the mass at my old church not being valid in my new church, well I'll be sharing a common view with all the RCs who come to my church to hear the choir, the genuflect and they recieve communion. Shows enough respect I think.

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Nicolemr
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they may genuflect, they may be polite, 103, but the fact is, if they are in agreement with the doctrine of their church, they do not believe they have recived anything other than a wafer and wine. is that what you believe you are serving them?

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Does anyone else read the introduction to prayer books / hymn books / pew Bibles during boring sermons? (The Bible is safest - you can pretend you are cheking a reference.)

You see, if you were a good old-fashioned Catholic, you could have a really interesting pre-1960s missal with lots of fascinating snippets about (as it might be) the origins of the liturgy, anecdotes about saints, and a diagram of a priest.
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Max.
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# 5846

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
they may genuflect, they may be polite, 103, but the fact is, if they are in agreement with the doctrine of their church, they do not believe they have recived anything other than a wafer and wine. is that what you believe you are serving them?

No of course not, but when I've asked the RC Priest who I'm in dialogue with if he thought that the masses he celebrated in the Anglican Church were just Bread and Wine, he responded with "No, I believe that I was celebrating a true mass, just as much as I do now"

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Does anyone else read the introduction to prayer books / hymn books / pew Bibles during boring sermons? (The Bible is safest - you can pretend you are cheking a reference.)

You see, if you were a good old-fashioned Catholic, you could have a really interesting pre-1960s missal with lots of fascinating snippets about (as it might be) the origins of the liturgy, anecdotes about saints, and a diagram of a priest.
A diagram of a priest? Were there lift-up tabs?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Ariel
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# 58

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No, all the different bits were clearly labelled.
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Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
or else you will not be in agreement with the full doctrine of your new church.

And so what? Why does anyone need to be in agreement with the full doctrine of their church?

God supplied (most of) us with brains - we are expected to think for ourselves. Sometimes we get things wrong, sometimes we disagree, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that, it is the only way we make any progress. As I've said before, I think it is fundamentally wrong that because the church is divided we have to make a decision to be in communion with part of it (and thus out of communion with other parts) on the basis of our erring judgement on divisive issues. But that is the situation that we are stuck with and the best any of us can do is to judge, by the light we've been given, which part of the Church will bring us closest to Christ.

At the moment, 103 judges that to be a sub-set of the Anglican church, because he is not willing to disobey his parent's wish that he not convert until he is 18. Which is a damned good reason.

But he expects that after that condition ceases to apply, the Roman Catholic Church is where he will be called. I don't know why, and, as I am not a Catholic, I'm fairly sure it won't be something I consider a strong enough reason to convert, but that's not the point. The point is, it is the best judgement he is able to make for his own relationship with God. By judging the Roman Catholic Church to be the best part of a fractured Christianity he does not thereby (necessarily) accept all of its teachings. He may come to do so eventually, or he may not, and that's up to him.

The rest of you mockers - is any part of your hostility due to a dim awareness that someone who is obviously younger, less mature, and less articulate than you is actually dealing with a very difficult situation with more honesty, simple-heartedness, commitment and courage than you would show - even if you think he's getting some of it wrong? Aren't you a little bit ashamed? Because you should be.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Now wait a minute. You object to women priests in the C of E on what grounds? Scriptural?

Yet if the Pope decided it was all right you'd chuck away your interpretation of Scripture and the passionate anti-female-clergy stance you've embraced for some months now and suddenly start liking the idea, and telling your FiF friends that they'd got it all wrong over the past years?

No - it's only partly scriptual and I think a lot of FiF people would be in agreement with me (my parish priest for one actually)
The ordination of Women broke a lot of relations between us and Rome and if anybody should have the decision on the ordination of women then it should be the Pope. Every single pope has refused the ordination of women, most possibly because it would break the unbroken chain of apostolic sucessions.
Also because every Pope has taken the view that "If Jesus would've wanted women priests then he would've had female deciples"
Only groups like "REFORM" think that women priests are a bad idea and have a entirely scriptual reason and I'm not at all like REFORM on that belief, it's all for other reasons.
I think this is a dead horses topic though so prehaps you might want to talk about FiF stuff and reasons in Priestly Genitalia.

-103

You know, 103, a big reason why I tend to not take you very seriously is that so many of your arguments aren't spiritual, aren't theological, aren't even personal, they're instead...
"..and I know a bunch of people who would agree with me." Sometimes those people are FIF, sometimes they're the vicar in your church, sometinmes I strongly suspect they're a make believe group of people that you hope agree with you to give your soul a little solace (you wouldn't be the first in this regard, and will hardly be the last). Even your posts in this thread were very much "come on people, back me up!" to solicit public approval before getting to "I'm right, I know it and I know a lot of people agree with me."

People may, in fact, agree with you. The agreement, however, doesn't necessarily make you or them right, or everyone else wrong. What it does is make you look like you're not actually thinking things through, but rather grasping onto something, not really understanding it, and thinking it ok so long as someone agrees with you. Even now, you're asserting that if the Pope said it was ok, you'd think women priests were ok. Pick a side. Either you agree with the concept of women priests in theory or you don't. Understanding WHY the Pope has yet to allow women to be ordained is to be commended, but it doesn't say thing one about whether or not you think it is theologically/morally correct, just that you're fickle and not thinking for yourself, in which case it is very hard to take you seriously.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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shareman
Shipmate
# 2871

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quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
I don't get it, if your mother wouldn't be good enough to give you comunion or bless you, why does she get any way in which church you're a member of?

<tangent in support of 103>
Well, it's not about "good enough" unless you think that my inability to bear a child is not because I'm a man, but because I'm somehow not "good enough". And I support women priests, but if you're going to counter argue, then argue against what the other side is actually saying. They might be a bunch of neanderthals, but their arguments still need to be countered.
<end of tangent>

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Israel also came into Egypt, and Jacob was a stranger in the land of Ham.

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by shareman:
quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
I don't get it, if your mother wouldn't be good enough to give you comunion or bless you, why does she get any way in which church you're a member of?

<tangent in support of 103>
Well, it's not about "good enough" unless you think that my inability to bear a child is not because I'm a man, but because I'm somehow not "good enough". And I support women priests, but if you're going to counter argue, then argue against what the other side is actually saying. They might be a bunch of neanderthals, but their arguments still need to be countered.
<end of tangent>

I'm not quite seeing your point. The reason that women aren't ordained in the RCC is not becuase spiritually they're different, etc, but solely based on their gender. Not being able to bear children doesn't make you a man, you could be an infertile woman. That's biology. Biologically, women can give the eucharist, so long as they are able to use their arms, toes, nose, whatever it takes. The sole restriction is that they're women. Not that they can't physically do it, or that spiritually they are less then men, but that they just are women. But men can administer the eucharist. Were a woman to make all the same vows, etc as a man she'd still be prohibited. What other way is there to interpret it than "women aren't good enough?"

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Callan
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# 525

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I think you are missing the point Go Anne Go. ACs believe that the Anglican church, whilst being out of communion with Rome maintains Catholic order and is, therefore, in some sense Catholic. So to an extent, we look towards the practice of Rome and Orthodoxy as a kind of benchmark of our own practices. Now, ACs notoriously found the issue of the ordination of women difficult because it was a clear breach with the historic practice of the Catholic and Orthodox churches and that of the undivided church. In a sense, it reduced the ability of the C of E to call itself Catholic. Now clearly, if the Catholic Church had taken this step at the same time then a great deal of AC opposition to the move (not all of it) would have evaporated. By saying that if the Pope had agreed to OoW, one would also agree to it is just a short hand for a fairly common and reasonably defensible position.

I'm not inclined agree with it myself - it has never been made clear to me why the Pope gets a veto about women but not about the validity of Anglican orders - but I don't think that it's vacuous.

I think you are inclined to approach catholic views - which place a high importance on Tradition and in being in step with the wider Church and on those who have gone before - from a protestant perspective which views every opinion as something to be individually thought through from scratch. There are advantages and disadvantages to both perspectives but it seems rather pointless to blame a catholic for not approaching a subject from a protestant approach.

Cross post - I was responding to the earlier post of GAG when she accused 103 of not thinking for himself.

[ 21. April 2005, 18:58: Message edited by: Callan ]

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846

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*Finishes chewing a piece of celery and gulps*

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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Tradition can well be part of it. Not a part that's going to hold up for me personally, but I can well see that it could for some.

But if you're readily willing to throw out that tradition on the basis of what the Pope says, or on the basis of what anyone else says, then you're neither upholding tradition nor thinking for yourself. And indeed, you can even think for yourself, disagree with it, but still follow tradition. If you're going to agree or disagree with something, you ought to have better reasons for it than "lots of people agree with me." The RCC has better reasons for its actions (whether I agree with them or not) than "lots of people agree with us."

It is hard to think of a circumstance where "well, lots of people back me up" is a well thought through rationale for anything. It is a good practical exercise at determining consensus (ie, electing officials), but after that, it gets useless.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't prefer that church over my own at all, I wish they had colour and a big band and I wish the priest would wear a chasuble BUT I feel a lot more comfortable with the fact that it's in the RC Communion and it's not pretending to be something that it's not.

Forgive someone who is living on the Left Bank of the Great Pond, but "pretending to be something that it's not"? Is there something here that I am losing in translation?

When visiting Vancouver, BC, on a Sunday, I frequently (but not exclusively) attend services at St. James. (The chanting of the Passion Gospel was absolutely stunning this year.) While the service at 11:00 does come from the Canadian ASB, it would best be described as "Anglican Missal." These folks don't miss a beat—or a place to use incense. It is always High Mass, complete with deacon, servers, tower bell giving sac rings, etc. Even so, St. Jame's is not pretending to be anything but more Anglo-Catholic-than-thou. They are not pretending to be Roman anything. The service is pretty much strictly Canadian ASB (with every option imaginable under the sun taken).

(I don't know if I would like this every Sunday, but it is always wonderful when I visit.)

Are you saying your home parish is using Roman liturgy when you use the word "pretend"?

If so, you have every reason to complain. And to be confused. And to have a few things to try to work out.

Lex orandi. Lex credendi.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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quote:
No of course not, but when I've asked the RC Priest who I'm in dialogue with if he thought that the masses he celebrated in the Anglican Church were just Bread and Wine, he responded with "No, I believe that I was celebrating a true mass, just as much as I do now"


aw come on, 103, you know better than that. that may be what he wants to believe, but it ain't official church doctrine.

so what it comes down to is you want to leave the anglican church because you feel that communion served by a woman is invalid, to join a church that says all your communions to date have been invalid anyway, weather or not a woman had anything to do with them.

the irony staggers the imagination.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Max.
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# 5846

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Right, my bible has just fallen open onto a quote that I think is relevant to this thread.
1 Peter 2:11-12

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[qb]I'm not sure though about some other Anglican Churches (to which I wouldn't be allowed to be a Eucharistic Minister in anyway because I'm a member of Forward in Faith and most Anglican Churches in this area have Women priests

I assure you that we don't bar members of Forward in Faith from ministering in our churches. Whatever gave you the idea that we did?
'twasn't me that said that - just for the record.
y'might want to wade backward through the thread to find out who quoth the quote in question.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117

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What have any of the last ten pages on this thread got to do with the OP?

Cosmo

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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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cosmo, nothing at all, really. its called thread-drift. fun, isn't it?

103, uh?

quote:
11Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. 12Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
i have a rather unplesent thought about what you could be meaning by this, i hope i'm wrong, prehaps you could elucidate?

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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