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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Blasphemous desecration
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
More likely, though, is that he's upset someone who committed the unforgivable sin of being unfamiliar with the ways of his church. What a hero.
Even more likely, you are abrogating the authority of his priest, who commended his actions, and acting like you consider yourself the priest's superior. What a hero.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
Well said, Sienna.
Cosmo, unless you can produce any figures (and I admit that I can't, either) I guess we're going to have to just agree to disagree on the incidence of blood-drinking host-desecrating black masses.
Peronel
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sienna:
103, all caps and multiple exclamation points generally means "yelling." "Grabbing" her by the shoulder doesn't mean "a polite tap." Note I didn't say you should let her do whatever she wanted or leave with the Eucharist. What I said was she should be treated respectfully, which, from your retelling of the incident, I don't think you did.
OK, let me rephrase "Grabbing" with "Firmly Gripped"
In my experience tapping doesn't often get people's attention when you're vertically challenged. I had a chalice in my other hand so I had to be very careful that I didn't spill that (I think that would mean that the carpet would have to be burnt)
As B2F and Cosmo both said I did the right thing!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Enthia
Apprentice
# 9316
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Posted
Mousethief, I know 103 and I realise that his heart was in the right place but i was just saying that he could have handled it a bit better.
I have a lot of respect for his faith, I can only imagine what it’s like having such a strong faith in a very secular college.
Posts: 7 | From: Somerset | Registered: Apr 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
How does that answer my point. Your observation was that Catholics were bad for regarding 'a bit of bread' as 'an object of worship'. My point was that what you believe to be a 'bit of bread' was, for some of us, the MBS of our Lord's body and blood.
I don't, myself, believe that it is wrong to eat pork, drink alcohol, export statues of the Buddha from Thailand or wear shoes in a place of worship. Yet I would abstain from all these things in order to respect someone else's religion.
Whether or not 103 is the most sensitive Eucharistic minister in the world (no comment), or whether SRA happens (it doesn't) or whether hosts get desecrated (like, hello, what are we discussing) is a tangent from this central point that our protestant brethren seem unwilling to grapple with.
I have been known to stick up for protestants, on occasions, on these boards. What a bloody fool I was.
[Callan I have no idea what you were hoping to quote above. Please clarify. Also, I'm going to kick your ass if you ever mess up quotes in Hell again.]
[ 13. April 2005, 00:32: Message edited by: RooK ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
Well said, Sienna.
Cosmo, unless you can produce any figures (and I admit that I can't, either) I guess we're going to have to just agree to disagree on the incidence of blood-drinking host-desecrating black masses.
Peronel
As I said, the number of full Satanic Revels is small. However, the number of routine desecrations is large. You will forgive if I don't go into the details but, in my line of work, one has personal experience of this.
Cosmo
[ 12. April 2005, 22:23: Message edited by: Cosmo ]
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
How does that answer my point. Your observation was that Catholics were bad for regarding 'a bit of bread' as 'an object of worship'. My point was that what you believe to be a 'bit of bread' was, for some of us, the MBS of our Lord's body and blood.
Sorry--it was the first part of my post I meant. I am not defending the person who took the host with the intent of selling it. It is not something I would do, any more than I would attempt to communicate at an RC church, knowing that I don't view it as they do, and knowing that under their doctrines I am not allowed to communicate. However--it happened. He took it. What would people have happen to him, or his auctioning it?
The other part of my comment there (and in other posts on the thread) is in reaction to statements by others here that I am having a hard time seeing as not crossing into mistaking the object for the actuality. Maybe that's why I'm not understanding it, and probably would be better for a Purgatory thread about where that line lies, and why.
Sieg
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
More likely, though, is that he's upset someone who committed the unforgivable sin of being unfamiliar with the ways of his church. What a hero.
Even more likely, you are abrogating the authority of his priest, who commended his actions, and acting like you consider yourself the priest's superior. What a hero.
What is rather more likely is that the incident as his priest saw it is rather different from how 103 initially described it.
ETA: Cosmo, as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
After all, grabbing and YELLING!!! have already been downgraded to firmly gripped and hissed.
It may be that 103 handled this far more sensitively than his initial post would suggest. In that case, his priest may be right to commend him. But, after all, all we have to go on is his own description, in which he said he treated someone in such a manner that she would be unlikely to return.
103, you still haven't said if you think that last is regrettable.
[ 12. April 2005, 22:30: Message edited by: Peronel ]
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
That's what happens when you edit in haste. *sigh* The "ETA" should be at the end.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
103, you still haven't said if you think that last is regrettable.
It's regrettable that the lady thought that she could take the host and it had to come to that.
But I do not regret grabbing her and telling her to eat it!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Peronel: Given the fact that his priest was actually there in the room with him, and presumably not terribly far from him, when it happened, I'd say your thinking you can judge it better than the priest from a few words in a post on a discussion site is pretty ... what's a good word for it? dumb-as-dirt? outrageously presumptuous? absurd? ridiculous? Anyway it doesn't make you look very good, especially as you keep clinging to this inane presupposition that you are better placed to judge 103 than his own priest.
{ETA who it was to)
[ 12. April 2005, 22:33: Message edited by: Mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I dunno 103 despite your justifications I think I might well have told you where to stick it. But then I think I'm not a real Christian.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
I'm a Roman Catholic Eucharistic Minister. I assist in providing the Body and Blood of Christ to those who attend mass.
What offended me was the method described in 103's post: quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
...I quickly grabbed her shoulder and told her that she had to eat it immediatly. She looked at me as if I was crazy and I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!....
If I gave someone the Host and they put in their pocket rather than their mouth, I would intervene. If they just wandered off with it, I would keep an eye on him/her and take some sort of action (most likely delegating an off-duty EM -- there's usually one or two in the front pews) to investigate, thus allowing me to continue offering the Body.
Your use of ALL CAPS, 103, indicates that you actually shouted at her. While I understand that the nerves associated with being a first-time server can lead to bad decisions, I am mostly bothered by the fact that you feel no remorse, in fact you feel downright self-righteous about having publically embarrassed this woman to the point where you don't expect her to ever return to your church.
quote:
She probably will never come to my church again because of that but to Catholics it is INCREDIBLY important that somebody doesn't desecrate that Body of Christ. It is something so serious we just can't risk it!
Well, this Catholic, a struggling, sinful, heretical, trusting in God and not pretending to fully understand Him, has thrown her faith and soul into the Roman Catholic Church, because She (the Church) has been calling me for far longer than either you or Cosmo has been alive. And if salvation and grace are only actually given to those who intellectually agree with every word, paragraph, heading, and footnote of the Cathecism, then I suspect Hell is going to be very crowded indeed, and I apologize for polluting your (a-hem, cough) "Cathlolic" Church. Which one was that, by the way?
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
and all because the lady loves...
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Given the fact that his priest was actually there in the room with him, and presumably not terribly far from him, when it happened, I'd say your thinking you can judge it better than the priest from a few words in a post on a discussion site is pretty ... what's a good word for it? dumb-as-dirt? outrageously presumptuous? absurd? ridiculous? Anyway it doesn't make you look very good, especially as you keep clinging to this inane presupposition that you are better placed to judge 103 than his own priest.
Saint Matthew 7:1
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
103 - Has no one ever told you that girls don't like sanctimonious little shits?
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Given the fact that his priest was actually there in the room with him, and presumably not terribly far from him, when it happened, I'd say your thinking you can judge it better than the priest from a few words in a post on a discussion site is pretty ... what's a good word for it? dumb-as-dirt? outrageously presumptuous? absurd? ridiculous? Anyway it doesn't make you look very good, especially as you keep clinging to this inane presupposition that you are better placed to judge 103 than his own priest.
Saint Matthew 7:1
Ouch.
I have never heard a use of that that hasn't backfired. Sorry, 103. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Given the fact that his priest was actually there in the room with him, and presumably not terribly far from him, when it happened, I'd say your thinking you can judge it better than the priest from a few words in a post on a discussion site is pretty ... what's a good word for it? dumb-as-dirt? outrageously presumptuous? absurd? ridiculous? Anyway it doesn't make you look very good, especially as you keep clinging to this inane presupposition that you are better placed to judge 103 than his own priest.
Actually, I was saying the opposite. I guess my cocked up edit didn't help my comprehensibility.
To repeat, 103 gave an initially very dramatic description of what happened. That description has since become less dramatic - that is a good thing. It is entirely possible that the incident was very different from how the initial post portrayed it. If that is so, his priest may well have been right - I don't know, I wasn't there.
I can only judge on what he said. And what he initially said was he "grabbed"; he used capitals which suggested he YELLED; and that he doesn't think the person on the receiving end is likely to return.
If that is the case then it strikes me as being far from commendable. I guess you disagree.
Peronel.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
103 - Has no one ever told you that girls don't like sanctimonious little shits?
I'll use that as my signature!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm saying it's his priest's problem, not yours or mine, Peronel.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
, I quickly grabbed her shoulder and told her that she had to eat it immediatly. She looked at me as if I was crazy and I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!
I can so see Jesus doing the same as you 103. Can I suggest you don't parade your follies across the net.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
quote:
Callan:
Why do protestants have such a difficulty with this? If the religious ceremonies of any other religious group were desecrated for profit, I imagine the response would be outrage.
Nice to see Luther being vindicated ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I'm saying it's his priest's problem, not yours or mine, Peronel.
Peachy. Then he shouldn't have raised it on a discussion board.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Quite true as far as the bottom line, Mousethief, but he posted it and this is Hell.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
I don't see the problem either, it is neither sick, nor funny - just enterprising.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyone can buy unconsecrated wafers. I can get them in a shop round the corner.
I ate half a box of the buggers once, horrible dry things. yuck.
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Quite true as far as the bottom line, Mousethief, but he posted it and this is Hell.
Also true. Peronel is allowed to make an ass of herself over this all she wants. And what do you know! She has!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by starbelly:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyone can buy unconsecrated wafers. I can get them in a shop round the corner.
I ate half a box of the buggers once, horrible dry things. yuck.
Couldn't find the parish custard creams?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Quite true as far as the bottom line, Mousethief, but he posted it and this is Hell.
Also true. Peronel is allowed to make an ass of herself over this all she wants. And what do you know! She has!
And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
Which is ironic, really.
Peronel.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
WTF are you talking about?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
quote:
Peronel, responding to the faithful: And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
It's part of their sacramental theology, Peronel, known as the Real Absence.
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Foaming Draught:
quote:
Peronel, responding to the faithful: And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
It's part of their sacramental theology, Peronel, known as the Real Absence.
Well done!
I'll bet you've been thinking of that throughout the thread, just waiting for the opportune moment.
Awwww. It's sort of sweet, I suppose.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
And you're quite at liberty to demonstrate that you're quite happy to hurt people to protect God.
WTF are you talking about?
In arguing that 103 was correct to grab and hiss at someone, embarrassing them to the extent that he thinks they are unlikely to return, in order to prevent the possible theft of the host, that is, in effect what you are saying. That the risk to the host outweighs the probable distress.
My position is that - reprehensible though this ebayer's actions are - it would be better to take the risk of that being repeated than to treat someone in a way that is likely to stop them from returning to church. You, I take it, disagree.
With that, as it's past midnight here, I'm going to sleep. This thread will have to do without me til the morning.
Peronel.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I was arguing that it's his priest's job to tell him how to act as an EM, not yours. I suppose it's your right to twist that around however you like, and of course you have. Hope it makes you feel better, I guess.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
If through lack of understanding or consideration I have posted something on this thread which has caused anyone offence to deeply held beliefs then I apologise for it.
Thank you, Captain Caveman.
I'm not RC, but if I'd seen the auction on eBay, I'd have hit the buy-it-now button, whatever the price, and taken the host to the local RC church. Even if there's a half a chance that it's a real consecrated host, and not a hoax, I'd feel duty-bound do to that.
I think what you, and some others, don't understand is that, for those of us who believe in the Real Presence, that host is not just a piece of bread. It is in truth the Body of Jesus, whom we love beyond life itself.
There was a story in the newspapers out here not too long ago, about a couple of boys who killed a stray dog by tieing it up and shooting arrows at it, then pulling the arrows out, and shooting it some more, until it was dead. The abuse of that dog provoked outrage, as it rightfully should.
And there was the story about the crematorium down in Georgia, I think, where the owners hadn't actually bothered cremating any bodies for several years. The ashes they returned to families were just cement. And the bodies were buried or dumped in a nearby field, or maybe in a pond on the grounds. Again, people were outraged over the abuse of the bodies of people who were dear to them.
And if a child's body is abused, or the body of a hospital patient who is in a comatose state, you know how repellant and disgusted people are.
All those feelings have parallels to our feelings when we hear of someone desecrating a consecrated host. It may just be a piece of bread to someone, but to us it is the Body of our Lord and Savior, it is something dear and precious, because He is dear and precious. To see it mistreated genuinely hurts.
It's clear that it doesn't bother you. And maybe it's hard to understand how we feel about it. But our feelings about it, as you can see from this thread, are very strong. I appreciate your apology.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Picture of blood stained hallway, followed by black mass ritual/stuff
A warning that this may not be for the faint of heart. Some will find it repulsive, some, hilarious and others indifferent.
[Link is visually disturbing - bloodstains and all that. Might not be work safe.]
[ 13. April 2005, 11:06: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ronist
Shipmate
# 5343
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Posted
quote:
Any real Christian would agree! No matter what the feelings of the person involved might be.
Tough shit buddy!
-103
God save me from all real Christians and Eucharistic Ministers.
Posts: 827 | From: Vancouver Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
103, you still haven't said if you think that last is regrettable.
It's regrettable that the lady thought that she could take the host and it had to come to that.
But I do not regret grabbing her and telling her to eat it!
-103
And I notice we're back to the description of "grabbing."
I have to say, if any punk ass kid like 103 ever did this to me while at the altar, a) I'd let him have a good verbal toungelashing right then and there, b) I'd be in to see his priest ASAP to try to get him out of his job as Eucharistic minister, and c) I'd pray he never tried to take up pastoral counselling. I mean, good heavens.
Next he'll be shoving little old ladies on the sidewalks for buying biscuits, in fear they'll be using them in Satanic ritual. Because you know that stealing wafers from Catholic mass is high on the list of priorities for Satanists. There's loads of references to this. Not.
She's not coming back to his church, and I daresay others aren't either. I, for one, am not going to turn up. How horrid! What an awful way to treat anyone in God's house!
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
I have to say, if any punk ass kid like 103 ever did this to me while at the altar, a) I'd let him have a good verbal toungelashing right then and there, b) I'd be in to see his priest ASAP to try to get him out of his job as Eucharistic minister, and c) I'd pray he never tried to take up pastoral counselling. I mean, good heavens.
From what I've known of you in your posts here and elsewhere, you have the good sense not to be making off with a Host at the Mass, so I don't see how this situation would arise.
Bear in mind that 103 was put on the spot, in a situation that Eucharistic ministers are told about in training, but that isn't really expected to actually happen the first time round. Any embarrassment that she suffered was brought on herself, whether deliberately, or through being in another world (as I was on Sunday). If she was daydreaming, nobody is condemning her to eternal damnation, but the responsibility to ensure that she wasn't daydreaming was her own and nobody else's. 103 wasn't to know what her intentions were and was justified in his actions, punk ass kid or not.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
Indeed, 103 was not to know what her intentions were.
Thus his inappropriate behaviour is made even more unjustifiable. Were she a known satanist, or had made some sort of declaration that she was taking it away for nefarious purpose, then he would have reacted possibly in a justifiable manner. As it was he was:
rude
loud
irreverantial
physically grabbing an older woman (by his own description)
hissing at her and commanding her to do things.
He escalated it out of all proportion. He didn't even start with a tap, or a polite if quiet reminder that she's supposed to eat it there. No, no, just grabbing and spinning her round and hissing at her.
Good lord, if he catches someone chewing the host, I dread to think what he's going to do then. Broken jaws could result!
And even worse, the priest condones it!
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Hey GAG, since you are the perfect judge of all things that any human does, I have some other things you can advise me about ... let me get my list, okay? Meet you back here in an hour.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
So, MT, how do you think the little turbo eclisiastical minister should have responded? I'm hardly alone on thinking the kid shouldn't have grabbed, shoulding have ordered, etc.
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You.Just.Don't.Get.It.
It's.Not.My.Call.and.It's.Not.Yours.
I don't know how to make this any plainer. Hello? Anybody home?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
Indeed, 103 was not to know what her intentions were.
Thus his inappropriate behaviour is made even more unjustifiable. Were she a known satanist, or had made some sort of declaration that she was taking it away for nefarious purpose, then he would have reacted possibly in a justifiable manner.
No. This is wrong.
It isn't the default action for someone to walk off with the Host. It is the default action to consume it and then leave. I can think of no reason why anybody would need to walk off with the Host except for some unseemly purpose. In all Anglican churches I have been two on this and the other side of the Atlantic, it has been the practice that, if there are people in the pews who are unable to approach the altar, the Sacrament is taken to them by the priest and/or ministers.
Therefore it is the woman's action of walking off with the Host that aroused suspicion.
As for her not having openly declared her intention to run off with the Host for some satanic ritual being seen as some reason not to have been suspicious, that is nonsense. Nobody with that intention would make it known in such a fashion.
Therefore, if avoiding a/ desecration of the Body of Christ, b/ scandal to the congregation and c/ possible sinful behaviour on the part of the woman, meant being:
quote:
rude
loud
irreverantial
physically grabbing an older woman (by his own description)
hissing at her and commanding her to do things.
then it was perfectly justified.
I'm all for courtesy, respect and politeness, but there are more important things. The three points I mentioned above are among them.
What was he supposed to do? Say "Excuse me, please don't steal the Body of Christ. It isn't nice."?
It reminds me of an episode of Paddington Bear, when the bathtub was overflowing and Paddington was drowing and so made a plea for help, but did it quietly so as not to disturb anybody.
[ 13. April 2005, 00:12: Message edited by: Back-to-Front ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
For 'two' in my previous post, please read 'to'. It's a quarter past one and my alarm goes off at a half past five, so I'm off to bed.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
He could have started with "Excuse me." Most people would. But no, he's got to go grabbing people and hissing at them. Even he admits she's not coming back. And he seems pretty proud of the fact she's not coming back, either. If the priest saw it, why didn't HE do something about it. Or why didn't 103 start off with something a little less intrusive or just get the priest's attention?
I'm hoping (but not much, given the priest's endorsement) that eucharistic training didn't include grabbing people and hissing at them. But apparently you think (and 103 thinks) this is ok. So maybe it IS part of the training down there in Bath.
Shudder.
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
You.Just.Don't.Get.It.
It's.Not.My.Call.and.It's.Not.Yours.
I don't know how to make this any plainer. Hello? Anybody home?
Then why are you bothering to post here if you don't think it is your call either?
He's a rude little boy, and until he learns some basic manners, he shouldnt' be involved with such spiritual practices as administering the eucharist.
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
[attempt at summing up current arguement] I've got a bit kerfuffled by this thread's to-ings & fro-ings - can I attempt to clarify things for thick people like me?
1) eBay seller diversifiedsolutions offered for sale on auction / buy it now a set of memorabilia from a visit he and some friends made to the Vatican
2) part of the lot, along with said memorabilia, was a wafer from Communion - served by the late Pope.
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*****pause for reflection*****
I come from about as low down the candle as they come (i.e. my church background is not high, loosely anglican, definately not RC in any way), but I do know that the RC church (and the OC?) hold it to be the case that during Communion the bread / wafer and the wine ACTUALLY BECOME the ACTUAL BODY and ACTUAL BLOOD of Jesus Christ, by a miracle.
In my own church, this isn't seen as the case - we see Communion's "body & blood" as being symbols of Jesus's body and blood - not the actual articles. In fact, we're low church enough not to finish up the remaining elements after the sacrament is over. Being a large church, COmmunion is served in people's seats, and is chopped up ordinary white bread.
This is, obviously, different to those in the RC (& OC?) church.
_________________________________________
3) if a member of the RC / OC church truly believe that the bread and wine are ACTUALLY PHYSICAL bits of Jesus Himself - they are going to be angry, no, incensed, furious beyond your average daily furiousness to see the bread/wafer (or wine, I guess) turning up, on sale, for profit. It is repulsive to them... like if your granny's body had been exhumed and then bits of it were offered for sale as a novelty that people could do what they liked with - rather repulsive, doncha think?
4) 103, trying to maintain the sanctity and sheer weight of importance that the RC church places on the holiness of Communion apprehended a member of the congregation - probably frightening the living daylights out of her - and told her to eat her Communion wafer immediately.
Perhaps he could have phrased it better, perhaps the church should have included an explanation of the weight and import of taking Communion in the RC church before the serving, so that those not accustomed to the service and the moves in it could know what was expected of them. He acted in all good faith whatever - and he did it for the Lord, from his own faith in Him, believing that what he was doing was God's work. Some of us may not see it like that, but hey... a selection of edited highlights from Romans 14 puts it better than I can;
quote:
4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
quote:
7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ”[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
quote:
righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
quote:
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
(apologies for verse numbers - used Bible Gateway - NIV, UK version 'coz it's on my toolbar & handy!)
so... acting in love for brother & sister Christians, those of us who do not perceive transubsantiation in the elements of Communion have no right to stomp over those who do (and, I guess, vice-versa).
5) People all have a right to be treated with respect - whoever they are.
quote:
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
(from Genesis 1, NIV,UK)
respect extends to not desecrating what others believe to be holy - like not driving a herd of pigs through a Mosque, not running through a Synagogue shouting the Name of the Lord at the top of your voice, then blowing out the perpetually lit light, not tearing up your church's pew-Bibles and using the pages to stock up the privvy instead of buying Andrex for a couple of weeks, not setting fire to flapping buddhist prayer-flags, not creeping up behind a sikh and shaving their hair off, and not drawing moustaches over the idols in Hindu temples.
In the same way, the RC church's faithful members shouldn't have to see what is, in their strongly, sincerely, and firmly held opinion, Jesus Christ - their Lord & God being sold on eBay.
Even someone as dim as me can see how upset & angry people are about this from the posts on this thread.
Those of us from different areas in the Church shouldn't be merrily pouring salt & vinegar in the wounds, IMHO.
have I got the general gist of what's going on so far?
(of course, in the time it's taken me to write this, the thread's been closed because everyone's started talking about fluffy bunnykins and sweet little spring lambs... maybe)
[Edited your rambling bullshit. Use Preview post in future.]
[ 13. April 2005, 11:35: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
A question: Do Catholics ever intincture the host? And if they do, how do the LEMs know if someone is not hanging on to the host for that purpose? Presumably the lady in question bypassed the chalice with the host in hand- of did she sip from the chalice still clutching the host? In either case I can understand a new LEM reacting in a slightly panicky way.
A comment on the Black Mass cult: I consider it a pretty poor, derivative cult to depend so slavishly on another religion (Catholism) without an original thought in its little pea-brain. Sounds like religion with the emotional age of a nastily neurotic fourteen year old. It's truly disgusting, but expressing a lot of outrage just feeds into the adolescent glee of its idiot adherents.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) sorry - my code is utterly reprehensible in the previous , and my computer's in a strop so I missed the edit window.
could some lovely person maybe close my italics tag for me after the sentence;
quote:
chopped up ordinary white bread.
This is, obviously, different to those in the RC (& OC?) church.
?
and if you're feeling extra nice, could you maybe turn my "bugghists" into the "buddhists" they were intended to be?
sorry.
[ 13. April 2005, 00:33: Message edited by: luvanddaisies ]
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Siena
Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574
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Posted
While the level of dramatic intensity of the incident has varied throughout 103's retelling of the incident (sometimes "yelled" sometimes "hissed", then "grabbed" to "firmly gripped" and then back to "grabbed" again), what hasn't varied is 103's pride in his actions, and lack of concern for the effect his actions had on the lady.
I'm not criticizing 103 for requiring the lady to consume or return the host, and I understand his nervousness (I'm a Eucharistic Minister myself, and I've also had to ask people to please consume or return the host). What I am criticizing is the manner in which he did so (It would have killed him to say "please"?).
What I'm having a larger problem with is that he has expressed absolutely no regret for any hurt his actions (justifiable or not) might have caused this lady, and doesn't seem to give a rip whether she comes back to church or not. He's turned down invitations to express regret for any hurt caused the lady throughout the thread - his only regret is that the woman didn't seem to know how to behave up to his standards - sort of an "I'm sorry you're being stupid" regret. Nor does he appear to think there's a need to contemplate a better way to handle such situations in the future.
All in all, he seems pretty pleased with himself about it - enough so that he posted it on a public discussion board. And I think it's that attitude many of us are taking issue with.
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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson
Posts: 709 | From: San Diego, California, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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