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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Blasphemous desecration
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
COSMO....my BS indicator is going strong here.
That's up to you of course. Any experience? No? OK then, but nothing I say will make you think any differently so we'll leave it at that. I know the dangers and I've seen the aftermath. You haven't (I presume). However, your total ignorance of the subject still entitles you to call me a liar. You would be wrong but you can still call me that if you really want to.
In re the 'soggy pieces of Mother's Pride' then yes, I would be quite happy to say to the Methodist Ministeress that the species she uses for Holy Communion is soggy Mother's Pride, the reason being is that it is. Not too much hypocrisy there I think. But would I say that her belief concerning the Holy Communion is fucking stupid? Probably not. I leave that for others to do anonymously from the bravery of their office cube.
Cosmo
Cosmo
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
The problem is you're asking us to accept what are some pretty wild claims on trust. It's an internet version of, "Trust me I'm a..." What are you again? Your profile claims you as Archbishop. I have no idea if that's true because, frankly, I don't know you from Adam.
So you're expecting me to believe that the theft of consecrated hosts for use in bizarre sexual rituals is widespread simply because some guy on the internet told me so. That's farcical. It has nothing to do with calling you a liar: it is simply that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Searching the BBC news webpage for "satanism" turns up twelve results. Some of those are reports of churches being vandalised by self-proclaimed satanists. Most of those are graffiti, although there are cases of arson. Reprehensible, undoubtedly, but entirely unrelated to the theft of hosts.
Were that happening on the scale you claim, I would expect lots of reports describing it. Nubile young women arrested with a host in one hand and a tube of KY in the other, that sort of thing. The tabloids would lap it up. Yet I'm finding nothing.
Now maybe you do have some special expertise you're not letting on. Given you haven't told us about it, I wouldn't know. Maybe young women all over rural England really are shoving hosts up their fannies and drinking the blood of babies.
But on the evidence presented so far, I'm not buying it.
Peronel.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
I leave that for others to do anonymously from the bravery of their office cube.
And I bet you typed this in all sincerity. Tell me again which one of us is hiding behind a pseudonym on these boards?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Peronal, you said it so much better then I. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Cosmo, your posts sound like Mulder on the X-Files. I've seen more of this sort of stuff then many evangelical Christians but also enough to know to not take what was posted seriously.
I believe in the Devil and Satan and in evil working in this world.
This isn't it.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
In re the 'soggy pieces of Mother's Pride' then yes, I would be quite happy to say to the Methodist Ministeress that the species she uses for Holy Communion is soggy Mother's Pride, the reason being is that it is.
Cosmo
The Methodist Church doesn't have 'Ministeresses'. And I've never received a piece of soggy bread in any Methodist church I've worshipped at. 'sfunny, isn't it, how the people who imperiously demand absolute respect from other Christians who don't share their belief system discourteously (and predictably ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif) ) refuse to be respectful of the belief systems of those fellow Christians.
I take it the Anglican/Methodist covenant gets short shrift in Fr. Cosmo's neck of the woods.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, it's hard to pay attention to the Methodists when you're sucking Rome's dick. Priorities.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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ReginaShoe
Shipmate
# 4076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
The memorialist nature of more protestant celebrations of the Holy Communion doesn't seem to lend itself to desecration. ... the species they use for its administration are not thought to have any intrinsic otherness. Thus Satanists, desecrators and the like do not find them attractive for their purposes.
Cosmo
Ah, and here was me thinking that Satanists just hadn't had their Reformation yet. (What form would that take, I wonder? "No, I don't want to worship THAT Antichrist, I want to worship the one from the 'Left Behind' novels! And I'm standing up for my right to desecrate those stupid little mini-saltines and plastic cups that I always got at First Assembly of God in Pleasantville!")
Indeed, I do think the actions of the eBay seller were thoroughly reprehensible and disrespectful. But leave it to me to find something amusing to ponder out of it all...
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"If you have any poo, fling it now." - Mason the chimp
Posts: 598 | From: Colorado | Registered: Feb 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Peronal, you said it so much better then I.
Cosmo, your posts sound like Mulder on the X-Files. I've seen more of this sort of stuff then many evangelical Christians but also enough to know to not take what was posted seriously.
I believe in the Devil and Satan and in evil working in this world.
This isn't it.
Mulder made more sense and was less arrogant than Cosmo.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:
Originally posted by Sienna:
103, Jesus can take care of himself, and is more than capable of defending Himself against desecration, intentional or accidental. The reason for respect of the Precious Body is for our benefit, not His. So the sanctimonious drama about "choosing a person over Our Lord" is more than a little bit over the top.
Was it necessary to grab her and yell, publicly embarrassing her? Tell me, as a Eucharistic Minister, do you not see that you have some duty to those receiving the Eucharist, namely, treating them with respect? You said yourself she probably won't come back to your church. I wonder whether that's the result Christ would have wished for.
I didn't yell - I hissed. It was necessary because she was walking quite quickly and I panicked on my first time as Eucharistic Minister. I told my parish priest and he said that he saw and it was exactly what I should've done. I had remembered what he told me to do from the Eucharistic Minister Instruction Lessons! If you don't like it you can take it up with my parish priest. He said that he didn't want anybody taking the host away with them and it was OUR DUTY as Eucharistic Ministers to make sure that it doesn't happen and to watch them consume it!
It did exactly that - Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
[QB] It did exactly that - Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
Sorry, sonny, but no. You were right to inform her that she should consume the host - she probably had no idea what to do with it - but the manner in which you did so was inexcusable.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
The problem is you're asking us to accept what are some pretty wild claims on trust. It's an internet version of, "Trust me I'm a..." What are you again? Your profile claims you as Archbishop. I have no idea if that's true because, frankly, I don't know you from Adam.
So you're expecting me to believe that the theft of consecrated hosts for use in bizarre sexual rituals is widespread simply because some guy on the internet told me so. That's farcical. It has nothing to do with calling you a liar: it is simply that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Searching the BBC news webpage for "satanism" turns up twelve results. Some of those are reports of churches being vandalised by self-proclaimed satanists. Most of those are graffiti, although there are cases of arson. Reprehensible, undoubtedly, but entirely unrelated to the theft of hosts.
Were that happening on the scale you claim, I would expect lots of reports describing it. Nubile young women arrested with a host in one hand and a tube of KY in the other, that sort of thing. The tabloids would lap it up. Yet I'm finding nothing.
Now maybe you do have some special expertise you're not letting on. Given you haven't told us about it, I wouldn't know. Maybe young women all over rural England really are shoving hosts up their fannies and drinking the blood of babies.
But on the evidence presented so far, I'm not buying it.
Peronel.
At no point have I said that the theft of Hosts for Satanic Revels is widespread or that it is happenning on a large scale. I merely said that it happens and that Satanists, (real ones rather than silly spotty teenagers pretending to be nasty) when they do try to get hold of a consecrated host for their fun and games, will always try to obtain one consecrated at a Catholic (be it Anglo, Roman or Orthodox) Mass. You can make of that what you will. I don't expect you to have a conversion, merely admit the possibility that what I say might actually have some validity.
Yes, I do have some expertise in these matters and no I'm not going to give details of it here. As I said to Og, nothing I can say would convince you or anybody else anyway. You either recognise that this sort of thing happens or you dismiss it.
Cosmo
[ 13. April 2005, 21:18: Message edited by: Cosmo ]
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
At no point have I said that the theft of Hosts for Satanic Revels is widespread or that it is happenning on a large scale.
Um, actually, yes you have. More than once, too.
Back on page three is this:
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
As I said, the number of full Satanic Revels is small. However, the number of routine desecrations is large.
And on page 2:
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Satanists do not routinely go about killing babies and drinking their blood (although the killing of babies and adults does sometimes happen and is the culmination of a Satanic Rite). However, the desecration of the Blessed Sacrament (and all that pertains to it - the altar, tabernacle, ciboria etc) does happen often and on a routine basis.
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
If you look further up, you'll see I describe it as "Abhorrent. Repulsive. Reprehensible." It is also incredibly unlikely.
No it is not.
Cosmo
You've said desecration of the host within the context of satanism happens "often", "on a routine basis", that the number of incidents is "large". Given that desecration cannot happen without theft of the host then you have indeed argued that "the theft of Hosts for Satanic Revels is widespread or that it is happenning on a large scale".
If you didn't mean that, then I suggest you're more careful in what you post. Especially when you're relying on your nebulous and unstated authority to give your claims credence.
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
As I said to Og, nothing I can say would convince you or anybody else anyway. You either recognise that this sort of thing happens or you dismiss it.
Well, that depends. On one level you're right. Just saying over and over "This happens. I know it happens. I'm not going to tell you how I know it happens." is not going to convince me. If I knew and respected you in real life I'd be happier to take it on trust, I don't. And I'm generally suspicious about unsubstantiated stuff on the internet. I don't think that's unreasonable.
If those claims were substantiated of course I'd take them more seriously. So far, however, it's been all hot air. Which is a lousy foundation to use to justify grabbing someone and hissing at them, or acting in such a way as to make it unlikely they return to your church.
Peronel.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
There are only two reasons why, in my experience, people walk off with hosts in their pocket:
1. They don't know what it's for. They went up to the communion rail because that's what everyone else was doing, and someone put a round papery thing in their hand. For fear of embarrassment they pop it in their pocket.
2. They take it to crumble up and sprinkle on their allotment to help their lettuce and carrots grow.
Sorry Cosmo and young Henry, but they don't take them to shove up their fannies.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
...but they don't take them to shove up their fannies.
You just shattered a thousand of my more pornographic dreams.
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
But you may have helped my flower pots no end.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
i remember at some point on these boards, someone who is a priest, anglican, i think, but i don't remember who, reported that after he had been newly apointed to a church, he went to visit a sweet little old lady of the parish and was shocked to discover that she had a whole souvinier album of hosts that she'd collected at various services that she considered important in some way... she cheerfully explained, if i remember correctly, that she got them by putting the host on her tongue when given it, but not swallowing, and carefully removing it at the first opertunity.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
* because other people said "It's a DH" and so stopped discussing it, whilst you said "My position has probably been said down there, so I won't go to DH and discuss it. But here's what I think."
* because neither of the hellhosts were around in the time span when people said their opinions on the DH.
* because I am randomly cruel and vindictive, and my lotto machine picked your name out for the 'Shipmate I shall pick on today'.
You decide.
you want to post a poll on that? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
quote:
As far as I understand it, once the Blessed Sacrament, always the Blessed Sacrament. The reason that It should be change regularly (weekly at least) is, I imagine, simply because consuming a stale Host is not likely to be terribly edifying, nor will it prevent crumbs. (Or do they go soggy? - either way.)
curiosity demands me to ask...
what happens to the remaining wafers when they are relieved by a new set?
do they still get eaten, even if stale?
quote:
Just out of curiousity, has anybody been able to glean any information about the buyer? (It's listed on the auction page, but when I clicked on it, eBay wanted me to go through the whole registration process, which I couldn't be bothered with at the time.)
Member Profile: oz_loves_montana_coffee
Feedback Score: 93
Positive Feedback: 100%
Members who left a positive: 93
Members who left a negative: 0
All positive feedback received: 100
eBay Member User ID History
the User IDs that this member has used on eBay.
User ID Effective Date End Date
oz_loves_montana_coffee Dec-19-03 Present
oz-loves-coffee Apr-26-00 Dec-19-03
*******@webtv.net Apr-02-99 Apr-26-00
eBay hides parts of User IDs with "*" to protect member privacy.
no indications of what previous transactions have been over. All feedback (as buyer or as seller) fairly standard general stuff.
Items for Sale by oz_loves_montana_coffee
Includes Buy It Now items, current auctions, and auctions which ended in the last 30 days.
Item Start End Price Title High Bidder / Status
This seller is not currently offering any items for sale.
(*) indicates that auction has ended
quote:
In any case, there are features of 103's church that would be a giveaway of the church's tradition. The fact that the service is referred to as the Mass is perhaps the most obvious one, but the ceremony, candles, images of the Saints, incense, and importations from the Roman Missal, would all be very strong indications to anybody vaguely familiar with church, that this church is in the Catholic tradition.
...assuming someone was "churched" in the first place. Many, many people aren't at all familiar with anything to do with church. Some people think that all of them are exactly the same.
quote:
[R.C. church as]...the Church throughout the world from its earliest times to now
I think that might be something of a matter of opinion.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
I don't think I over reacted or was rude!
I asked her to consume the host immediatly and she looked at me as if I was crazy so I told her to "Eat it now"
I know that it isn't likely that the host would be stuffed up a women's fanny but I didn't know that the women in question wouldn't do that, she possibly could. I don't want to take that risk with the Body of Christ! In fact even if I wasn't a EM and I saw her holding it I would've reacted in the same way! I wouldn't just let it pass me by, I would expect everyone else in my church to do the same!
And Thirdly, It might upset her initially but prehaps it might make her think! When I was younger I used to go to a local RC Parish Church when I couldn't attend my own, I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to recieve communion, I spoke to the parish priest and there was a misunderstanding in his understanding of my normal parish church, He thought I was talking about an RC church and said it was fine to recieve communion. When we were having a conversation after the mass I told him some more stuff about my church and he said "Your church sounds very proper which church is it again?" and I told him and he then relized that I was an Anglican and he shouted at me and told me not to come back until I had become a Roman Catholic through an RCIA Course at my own local parish and not his! This upset me a lot and I went through an anti-Roman phase for a couple of weeks but now I have come to the decision that I will leave the Anglican Church when I come to the crossroad in my life where I'll have to leave my own parish community and I will join an RCIA course and I will become a Roman Catholic! I have already been told by another Local Roman Catholic priest that he will very happily accept me into an RCIA Course when I'm ready "No rush though" at his church! I will take him up on it! But I never would've thought about joining the RCC if that angry priest hadn't shouted at me. It upset me BUT it made me think very deeply about what I believe!
As the saying goes "You've gotta be cruel to by kind"
I helped this Lady and I am glad that I did.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Siena
Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574
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Posted
How did you help this lady? You yourself said she would probably never come back to the church, so that hardly squares with your newest contention that now you only treated her this way to help her deepen her faith.
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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson
Posts: 709 | From: San Diego, California, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Viola
Administrator
# 20
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Posted
They must breed them like that in Somerset.
I always knew they were odd down there!
K.
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"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010
Posts: 4345 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think I over reacted or was rude!
[snip snip]
As the saying goes "You've gotta be cruel to by kind"
I helped this Lady and I am glad that I did.
Christ.... With an attitude like that, even those of us who are trying to defend your actions are having a difficult time to find a reason not to flame your sanctimonious ass. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Amazing Grace*
Shipmate
# 4754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
[QB] It did exactly that - Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!
-103
Sorry, sonny, but no. You were right to inform her that she should consume the host - she probably had no idea what to do with it - but the manner in which you did so was inexcusable.
As it has been reported (and the story might change again) I must agree with Fr. Fiddleback here.
I find the auction to be quite ... crass and think that it should have been pulled by EBay. And I'm not even of the "Real Presence" camp (a very friendly and sympathetic next-door neighbor, but not there). I think the possibility of someone using it for a Black Mass rather slim (it would be much easier to waltz into your RC local and obtain one for free) and certain poster's emphasis on the possibility way out of proportion to its actual chances of happening (etc.), but the auctioneer should get the Ghoul of the Day award.
Charlotte
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.sig on vacation
Posts: 2594 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
P.S. 103, You should end a few more sentances with exclamation points just to let everybody know that you're being very sincere.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
So far as I can tell from what he's posted, 103 was right to request the woman to consume the host, if there was no custom of intinction at his parish, or if she was leaving his station to return to her seat, there being no chalice on offer. She might have genuinelly needed some direction with what to do at that point, particularly if a) she wasn't used to communion, or b) her own church had a completely different system of distribution.
I've occasionally given (quiet and I hope helpful) instruction to communicants who seem surprized by, or unsure of what to do with what they're given to eat or drink.
However, he wouldn't have been right in treating the woman - by the sound of it, sadly, - like some kind of reprobate in need of public rebuke, or bad person caught in the act of doing something bad. Frankly, Jesus dealt with the woman caught in adultery more gently than 103 dealt with, presumably, a fellow sister in Christ caught on the hop during Holy Communion. Certainly, Jesus told her to correct her behaviour - but only when they were able to have a private conversation, and he knew she wouldn't be humiliated or threatened.
It's understandable not to want to risk what we reverence, as in the Body of Christ. But occasionally we do more damage when we give the impression that it is Christ's own decision that he isn't risked. Through the people's prayer during Eucharist, Christ invited that woman to his supper. It may be that 103 avoided some travesty of desecration by what he did. But if not, more than likely he sent someone away from the Lord's table at least unpeaceful and uncomfortable, if not actually rebuked and feeling foolish. Cruel, but not kind.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
The seller is in Sloan, Indiana. The last feedback comment was from an irate Italian buyer of a DVD set who posted, "You will go to hell! DVD not original, you said me bad words". But other feedback, from sellers and buyers, is positive.
Joined eBay Apr 99, as did the buyer, whose profile only discloses "US'. No feedback for the item yet, from seller or buyer. The buyer's most recent listed purchase is a subscription to a large print edition of a religious magazine, but there are numerous other recent magazine subscription purchases. Hasn't sold anything since August last year.
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
Henry, others are extending a pastoral opportunity towards you - stop digging.
I've been thinking about how I would react to this if I weren't a Catholic or even a Christian. It is crass. Offering a consecrated host for sale is yet another tacky expression of celebrity culture, where dubious "souvenirs" such as a bottle of pills once prescribed to Elvis Presley are sold, where no symbol is truly meaningful because it's just another item with a price tag.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
I can't believe that I read this entire thread. What I think is chiefly amusing is that the e-bay seller went back for a second helping of Jesus.
Too bad 103rd wasn't there to tell him one was enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Sorry Cosmo and young Henry, but they don't take them to shove up their fannies.
What I want to know is, if a Satanist puts the Body of Our Lord into her delicate place, does He burn her satanist flesh, as the moving pictures show us when the Body of Our Lord is applied to the flesh of Vampires?
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
If nothing else, I'd imagine there'd at least be a burning sensation. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Glenn
Shipmate
# 6517
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) I haven't laughed so hard for a long time. It's about those black magicians. I'm trying to picture the show they might put on.
What's the problem with black magicians? Who cares if they're black? They should be given the same opportunities as the other magicians.
Well, I think it's hysterical. Sorry if I make your eyes roll. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
[Edited to add that yes, it is in extremely poor taste to sell that stuff on ebay]
[ 14. April 2005, 02:49: Message edited by: Glenn ]
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We are interested in evidence to support that which we already believe.
Posts: 288 | From: The Universe | Registered: May 2004
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
The real question, though, is: What sort of tat and vestments do they have? Inquiring minds want to know.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
The real question, though, is: What sort of tat and vestments do they have? Inquiring minds want to know.
Oooh, Oooh, I know: a Cassock-Nigra? It'd be just like a Cassock-Alb only black, of course.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Amazing Grace*
Shipmate
# 4754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
What I want to know is, if a Satanist puts the Body of Our Lord into her delicate place, does He burn her satanist flesh, as the moving pictures show us when the Body of Our Lord is applied to the flesh of Vampires?
I think it's probably more likely to be along the lines of yeast infection as Divine Retribution.
But, hey, anything can happen.
Charlotte
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.sig on vacation
Posts: 2594 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think I over reacted or was rude!
I think you over-reacted, and were rude. But in your defense, you are very young, and you were placed in an awkward position, having been told your responsibility, but not having been shown the best way to fulfill it. So you fulfilled your responsibility as the best you could, under the circumstances, and that's all we can ask of anyone. All things considered, I'd say you did well.
Except ... except ... I would hope that you would examine your actions and say, if this were to happen again, is there anything I could do differently, to fulfill my responsibility without causing offense? If there is no way to fulfill your responsibility without offending, of course you must offend. But if you can do what you must, without giving offense, that would be better.
It's possible, but unlikely, that the woman wanted to do something unseemly with the host -- paste it in a photo album, or feed it to the squirrels. It's also possible that she didn't know what she was supposed to do with the host. Or that she knew exactly what she was supposed to do, but was lost in thought. Perhaps her only child had just died, and she was going through the motions of worship, without really paying attention to what she was doing.
If that were the case (and I think it's no more unlikely to have been that than for her to have been a Satanist, and possibly less), then I'm sure she'd have been grateful if you had gently called her mind back to the liturgy, and to the Eucharist, and reminded her of where she was and of what she was doing. If she were there in great grief, she may not have responded to your first words because it takes time for sounds to penetrate grief. So you may, indeed, have been doing her a kindness to get her attention and bring her back to the present.
But, 103, you need to be gentle with other souls. If her heart were broken, your treating it roughly may have pushed her away from the only hope of healing and salvation that she had.
Of course, it's possible that she was taking the host away for frivolous reasons, and then perhaps your yelling at her and grabbing her was just what she needed to make her understand how serious the Eucharist is.
But unless you have been granted the gift of reading the hearts and minds of other people, I wouldn't presume so. I would err on the side of charity, and tread gently. You don't want to be found to have placed a millstone about her neck.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
What I want to know is, if a Satanist puts the Body of Our Lord into her delicate place, does He burn her satanist flesh, as the moving pictures show us when the Body of Our Lord is applied to the flesh of Vampires?
Great - The Sacrament of Spanish Fly.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
What I want to know is, if a Satanist puts the Body of Our Lord into her delicate place, does He burn her satanist flesh, as the moving pictures show us when the Body of Our Lord is applied to the flesh of Vampires?
I think it's probably more likely to be along the lines of yeast infection as Divine Retribution.
But, hey, anything can happen.
Charlotte
How can it give you a yeast infection if it's unleavened bread?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
If 103 has decided to make the leap to the RCC because a priest yelled at him and humiliated him, I guess he considered yelling at that lady an act of evangelism.
The insult comic Don Rickles would have made a great advocate for Catholism if yelling and ridicule are the approach of choice among priests and LEMs.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
Just out of curiousity, has anybody been able to glean any information about the buyer? (It's listed on the auction page, but when I clicked on it, eBay wanted me to go through the whole registration process, which I couldn't be bothered with at the time.)
Member Profile: oz_loves_montana_coffee
Feedback Score: 93
Positive Feedback: 100%
Members who left a positive: 93
Members who left a negative: 0
All positive feedback received: 100
eBay Member User ID History
the User IDs that this member has used on eBay.
User ID Effective Date End Date
oz_loves_montana_coffee Dec-19-03 Present
oz-loves-coffee Apr-26-00 Dec-19-03
*******@webtv.net Apr-02-99 Apr-26-00
eBay hides parts of User IDs with "*" to protect member privacy.[/qb]
Is there a way to contact "oz_loves_montana_coffee" to find out exactly what they plan on doing with their newfound purchase?
[UBB stuff]
[ 14. April 2005, 05:18: Message edited by: Living in Gin ]
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
If 103 has decided to make the leap to the RCC because a priest yelled at him and humiliated him, I guess he considered yelling at that lady an act of evangelism.
The insult comic Don Rickles would have made a great advocate for Catholism if yelling and ridicule are the approach of choice among priests and LEMs.
Funny... Most of us leave denominations whose clergy and members make us feel like shit. If I were interested in that treatment from a church, I'd still be a Calvinist.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Ronist
Shipmate
# 5343
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Posted
I spent way to much time in a pentecostal church. I met more religious fanatics than you can shake a stick at.
Cosmo and 103 would fit in perfectly. The fact that they are Catholic fanatics and not Pentecostal fanatics is an accident of circumstance. The common earmarks are that they are sure they are right and are rude and abusive to anyone who disagrees. It's a matter of putting there beliefs no matter how quaint ahead of people.
People are strange. Some more than others. I have no time for religious fantics whether they are high on the candle, low on the candle or sitting on the candle.
Posts: 827 | From: Vancouver Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Wm Duncan
Buoy tender
# 3021
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Posted
Wow, no doubt about it, the thread's a keeper. Goes so many directions, though, it's hard to know where to butt in.
About the crime of the seller on ebay: somebody suggested theft. With a sale price of $2000, it would be a felony. But from the tenor of the conversation, it sounds more like the charge should be kidnapping. Of course, it would have to be proven that the abductee was taken against His will. And selling the victim of kidnapping, that's a felony of another sort.
About the fact that the bidding did not shoot immediately into ebay-record territory: Josephine said that if only she'd known, she'd have sealed the deal immediately (was there a "buy it now" option?), but one would think that Opus Dei or Mel Gibson or somebody would've bid billions, to ransom the host. (A paradox, to ransom the one who is ransom for many ... )
And about the way you've all shot through five or six pages of Hellish rant in what's gotta be world-record time, and some of us just.don't.get.what's.the.big.deal. and others just.can't.chill.out : I remember from many, many years ago, someone (the Smothers Brothers?) received criticism for finding humor in so many things the society held sacred (flag, government, religion). Their reply: "That which you cannot laugh at, that is your god."
That's it, isn't it?
Wm Duncan
[ 14. April 2005, 06:06: Message edited by: Wm Duncan ]
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I have overcome a fiercely anti-Catholic upbringing in order to attend Mass simply and solely to escape Protestant guitars. Why am I here? Who gave these nice Catholics guitars?
-- Annie Dillard
Posts: 1193 | From: about 30 km above the Juan de Fuca plate | Registered: Jul 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I've been imagining the scene at Henry's church. The priest is administering the host; Henry is one of two people with chalices. Mrs. Robinson comes up to receive. Father gives her the host, which she receives in her hand. He passes along to the next person. Henry appears with the wine, and sees that Mrs. Robinson hasn't consumed the Body, isn't about to intinct or ask him to intinct, and is, in fact, turning away with the host in her hand. 'Eat it!' he says. She does not appear to notice.
With the chalice in one hand, he reaches out with the other for her shoulder and hisses, louder, 'EAT IT NOW!' Mrs. Robinson starts slightly, consumes the host and returns to her pew.
From her point of view: That odd-looking teenager in the oatmeal-coloured kaftan had been acting strangely throughout the service. Was he on something? Minor neurological handicap, maybe? One of those geeks her kid used to refer to? She'd been worried about him (especially when he was swinging that incense-burner), and had rather hoped he wouldn't come near her. The business with the communion was the confirmation of all her impressions. Of course she'd meant to put the host in her mouth. How could she have been so stupid? And to think that she'd only moved away to avoid the not-unlikely prospect of Sonny Boy slopping wine down her dress and wanting to ritually dispose of it. Ah well. It will all come out in the MW Report.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Ah well. It will all come out in the MW Report.
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Speaking respectfully from the sidelines, as an interested observer who is not RC:
--I think what the seller did was wrong. I personally think it's on the level of anyone who obtains sacred materials of another faith and misuses, sells, or displays them.
--It seems to me that if someone is going to do something nefarious with a stolen host and Jesus is present in the host, the host will either help the person towards God--or hurt them. Why not trust God to deal with whatever bits of Godself are taken out the door, and create a more welcoming environment where people aren't watched like a hawk?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
--103, it seems to me it might have been better to tug at her sleeve and say "Psssst...they want you to eat it right here".
--I'm disturbed by comments I've seen that indicate that the eucharist elements are more important than people. If Jesus does inhabit the elements, surely this is the same Jesus that loves everyone? And taught that the sabbath was made for people, and not the other way around?
--Josephine
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine to young Henry:
[QB]I think you over-reacted, and were rude. But in your defense, you are very young, and you were placed in an awkward position, having been told your responsibility, but not having been shown the best way to fulfill it.
This did occur to me, as well. In how many other English dioceses are minors licensed to administer Holy Communion? Or is this an archdiocese-to-be of Ebbsfleet thing?
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
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Posted
Josephine, well said.
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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by josephine to young Henry:
[QB]I think you over-reacted, and were rude. But in your defense, you are very young, and you were placed in an awkward position, having been told your responsibility, but not having been shown the best way to fulfill it.
This did occur to me, as well. In how many other English dioceses are minors licensed to administer Holy Communion? Or is this an archdiocese-to-be of Ebbsfleet thing?
I was licensed in the Diocese of Coventry when I was 17 - I think. It might have been 18, but I think it was 17.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
We have a twelve year old LEM at our church. Soft-spoken, intelligent, respectful, second only to our priest in knowing altar etiquette. An all-around delightful girl! ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
And I expect she'd respectfully whisper instructions to a communicant who went off track.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
I've been trying to work out the legal ramifications.
Theft, in England at least, is the "dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive".
This raises several issues, mainly the fact that, subject to disciplinary issues, a Church will normally voluntarily give the wafer to a person presenting themselves. I suppose one could argue that to appropriate it for any purpose other than consumption there and then is "dishonest".
But at the other end of the definition, there is the question of "intention to permanently deprive". This is problematic, because the giver of the wafer does actually intend to be permanently deprived of it - he (or she, these days) does not actually expect the wafer to be given back. Can you dishonestly intend to deprive someone of something they intended to give away anyway?
More importantly, there is the fundamental question of ownership. Whilst it is arguable that unconsecrated elements do belong, in law, to the body corporate that bought them (e.g. the PCC, the Incumbent, the Diocese, circuit, church council or whoever else in law acts in this capacity), could (would?) a person whi believed in the real, localised presence of Jesus Christ in the Host to assert any sort of legal right over the physical manifestation thereof. Can a creature own the Creator?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I don't think I over reacted or was rude!
I asked her to consume the host immediatly and she looked at me as if I was crazy so I told her to "Eat it now"
I have been to at least one church Independent Methodist (?) where it was normal to come to the front receive the bread intinct it and consume it in your seats quietly and reverently so the likely explanation is the person came from that tradition. 103 is from the brain dead, with no respect to anyone, irreverent, High Church tradition.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Surely, though, dyfig, it was a fraudulent reception (given that the eBay seller was not a Roman Catholic, knew he wasn't allowed to receive, and yet took It anyway)?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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