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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Blasphemous desecration
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
you need to shut the fuck up and start respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, try to be more like Erin in that regard, wouldja?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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I might suggest, as a "Class Song" for everyone brave or foolish enough to post on this topic, the following: The Parish of Dunkeld
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
shareman
Shipmate
# 2871

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quote:

Originally posted by Anselmina:
I missed the bit about the woman trying to put the host in her purse. Could you point me to where that is please?

Hyperbole, dear, born out of frustration that no-one seemed to have thought that she was anything other than a poor lost soul. Or a nasty Satanist.


quote:
In fact, the problem probably arose because the situation was many-layered, and the people involved were complex human beings.

JFTR, sometimes there's nothing wrong with being made to feel welcome and comfortable during worship. Just as there's nothing necessarily bad about being challenged from time to time.

Agree on all points.


quote:

So the choices are that anyone who acts as she did is either gauche or disrespectful?

No, there are others, all far better considered on this thread than these two. I didn't feel the need to rehash the arguments of the preceding 6 pages.


quote:

I suggest that what you mean is 'if people aren't familiar with the way we do things, they should leave well alone', which is a different debate altogether.

Well, no, not leave well alone. Regardless of the theology of the sacrament, the Eucharist is at base a meal. It is beastly to be rude (a la 103)to the other guests at a dinner to which one has been invited. It is also not particularly polite not to pay attention to the ettiquette and table manners expected of the other dinner guests and to act accordingly, no matter how welcome the Host has made you feel. If another guest reaches in front of you at dinner and drags his sleeve in your soup, you have a right to correct him, I think, but in such a way as not to embarrass him, the host, or yourself. Of course that's not what 103 did in this instance, my issue is not with what he did, but how he did it.


quote:

People go into Anglican churches 'not understanding a thing about what's going on but presuming to take part anyway' all the time. Yes, admittedly mostly in baptisms, weddings, funerals, high days and holy days. But even in our little rural outpost we get a steady stream of visitors who drop in, often on spec, quite a few of whom are totally unfamiliar with either church or our way of doing church.

And I suspect they have some sense that while all are guests at the meal, the locals have been there more than once and are familiar with the local etiquette. I would imagine most of them behave with the decorum they see around them. Or do all the people who visit your church do what they like? If so, how do you handle the disruptions?


quote:

You seem to be saying that unfamiliarity is somehow equal to disrespect, that people 'dare' to join in with Christian worship, despite not having first served whatever apprenticeship it is you imagine they need to complete. There are plenty of churches that do indeed operate in this way. For me one of the attractions of most Anglican worship is that it generally doesn't operate like this.

No, unfamiliarity isn't the same thing as disrespect. I would suggest though, that when you go to a church with which you are unfamiliar, then perhaps it behooves you to at least try to notice what others are doing, how they behave, what level of reverence they have, and try to act accordingly. If you were to wander into a mosque in the middle of Friday prayers and strayed into the area meant for the other gender, how would you feel if some young intense thing hissed at you to go to the other area? For my part, I'd probably think s/he had been a bit rude, but I had been ruder to think I could just walk in without paying attention.

As to apprenticeship, the Church used to require a long period of apprenticeship, about 40 days in Spring, I believe, before one could even find out what the "mysteries" were, much less receive them, so I suggest that expecting people to learn a little bit before they take part is not such a bizarre concept.

I don't think people should have to do a course before they darken a church door. I think that any baptised Christian, even if their baptism at 1 month old was the last time they had been in church should be welcomed at the altar. I just reacted strongly to the idea that seemed to be suggesting that someone entering a place of worship has no responsibility for their behaviour.

I find your use of the word 'dare' interesting. I wouldn't for a minute suggest that people shouldn't 'dare' to do what I thought was unseemly or disruptive as if going against me was some eggregious sin. I do think quite strongly about 'daring' to come into the presence of God, however. I think that's what I was reacting against, actually, what I saw as the idea that Holy things are somehow less important than how someone feels, that we somehow don't have a right to insist that God be shown a bit of respect, and that if we do, we are somehow bad people for alienating someone. Better to disrespect God than alienate someone. [Roll Eyes] Now I know God can look after Himself, but I still think we have a right to expect visitors to show some respect. Maybe this lady was confused and uncomfortable and did what she thought best at the time. I think 103 was harsh, but are you suggesting no-one had a right or a responsibility to explain to her in some fashion that what she did wasn't appropriate?

quote:
quote:



It is more important than the feelings of someone who couldn't be arsed to show a bit of respect for someone else's religious traditions.

Once again, please direct me to where 103 said this was the woman's known attitude. If this is indeed the case I'll happily agree with this point.
Of course he didn't, but then again he gave no indication that she appeared to be the poor ickle lost soul so many seem to have taken her for either.


quote:
quote:



QLooked at another way, why are the feelings of someone who doesn't have enough respect for people's religious beliefs to try to understand what she is doing before she takes part in their rituals more important than the people whose beliefs she shows such disrespect for?

Shareman, you don't know what her attitude was. You don't know if she was being disrespectful, so you can't state categorically she was.
Due respect, neither do you. I am merely suggesting that she has some responsibility to at least observe the behaviour of those around her before taking part in a ritual she doesn't understand, and to take her cue from their behaviour. If you go to a church that is not part of your tradition, what do you do? I'd venture to bet that you show some sensitivity to the fact that you are on unfamiliar ground and act accordingly so as not to upset those for whom this is familiar. Why then should she not have been expected to behave the same way. I repeat, it could have been handled in a manner that would not have embarrassed her or made her feel unwelcome, but I still think that she has some responsibility to behave in a way that shows respect for the religious beliefs of those around her.


quote:

You know, if ever an attitude such as yours became widespread I'd be astonished if anyone, ever, at anytime, including the faithful, dared to go anywhere near a church.

Oh, please, that's a tad extreme. All I am suggesting is that there are a couple of other possible explanations for this lady's behaviour than 1) she is a poor lost seeker who meekly attempted to feast at the Banquet of the Lord and was cruelly rebuffed or 2) she was a Satanist attempting to turn the Host into a sex toy. One of these is that she went to a church where she didn't understand the tradition and attempted to take part. She made an error of practice and was dealt with harshly. One reason for this might be that she didn't care enough about the religious sensibilities of those around her to try to find out what she was doing before she did it. No-one seemed to have considered this. That and the remarks of some who seem to feel that respect for the Sacrament as expressed in some churches is a bit silly and can't be expected to take precedence over how people actually feel drove me to be a bit flowery in my expression. Ooooops!

I think:
1) 103 was harsh in how he dealt with this situation, but he's an intense yoof who, I hope, will mellow with age
2) this lady could be expected to bear some responsibility for her actions, but it could have been explained to her in a far better manner.
3) not every stranger who darkens a church door is some poor lost waif who needs mollycoddling. We have a responsibility to be hospitable and welcoming to the visitor, but we also have a right to expect them to behave with reverence towards the things we count holy, and the responsibility to correct them, gently, when they appear not to. If we are wrong in our judgement of their lack of reverence, then hopefully our way of approaching the issue will be so tactful as not to require our apology. Not what 103 did, but his heart was in the right place.

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Israel also came into Egypt, and Jacob was a stranger in the land of Ham.

Posts: 516 | From: on a rock AND a hard place | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
you need to shut the fuck up and start respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, try to be more like Erin in that regard, wouldja?
Bite me, asshole. I already said that I don't think people should have to respect beliefs that they don't sign up to. But if I were the one who was harping on and on about how awful it was that my beliefs were disrespected I certainly would be practicing what I preached.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

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Not wishing to engage in any 103-baiting, but humiliating some poor woman like that at God's Board! It's not on.

Okay, maybe she was a Satanist. Maybe. Did she look like one? If she was one of those ferocious little old ladies that Anglo-Papalist outfits seem to attract I'd posit it would be fair to assume otherwise.

And whatever happened to "if you do this to the least..." or the idea of Holy Mother Church as the Body of Christ? To avert the risk of ill-treating the Body of Christ, you, erm, ill-treated one of Its components. Okay, not in the genitally-inserted, baby-killing way, if we believe all of that screed.

At the very least, it would have been couteous to have approached her afterwards, apologised for being brusque and explained local custom to her.

Yes, Satanists do acquire Consecrated Hosts for use - in some places it is quite a problem. But the slight risk is not so great as to excuse certain rudeness.

--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...

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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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Emma has blurted out:

quote:
Normally the ship doesnt put me off any particular denomination (well sometimes maybe the orthodox with The Orthodox Plot, but I think I might just be comfortable with that now
Pssst.... Mousethief, Josephine, Fr. Gregory....

I suggest, however, Emma, that you see how you feel after reading some of our other posts (see Thurible's new thread on Orthodox Hymnody), re-think that, and let the Plotters know if you still feel the same in the morning.

Leetle M.
"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

--------------------
eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Emma has blurted out:

quote:
Normally the ship doesnt put me off any particular denomination (well sometimes maybe the orthodox with The Orthodox Plot, but I think I might just be comfortable with that now
Pssst.... Mousethief, Josephine, Fr. Gregory....

I suggest, however, Emma, that you see how you feel after reading some of our other posts (see Thurible's new thread on Orthodox Hymnody), re-think that, and let the Plotters know if you still feel the same in the morning.

Leetle M.
"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

Leetle...you are so nice. Are you Dolphy's sock puppet?


It's not all about you guys, ya know. Can we not have a bit of sniping, even in a thread about old biddies taking home Jesus to spread on their flower garden, without a bit of the "Shine Orthodox Shine" stuff?

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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Og accuses,
quote:
Are you Dolphy's sock puppet
I was just going to ask you, Og, if you were Erin's sockpuppet.

Snipe on, O Christian soldier,
From back behind your screen.
Stick to your guns and splatter
Our guts across the scene.
For all day long you scatter
The army of the Lord:
And hack, and chop and batter
The Truth of God's own Word.

by Leetle M., dated this afternoon, 14 April '05

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
Aren't you supposed to let it melt in your mouth,like butter or maltesers, you know instead of all that biting ?

Yes. You're also supposed to fast before you take it. Or so I was brought up to believe.

I don't suppose anybody bothers these days, I've seen people walk away from the altar chewing vigorously like it's a toffee, and they probably had the Full English Breakfast just before they went.

[ 14. April 2005, 17:48: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809

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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Yes, Satanists do acquire Consecrated Hosts for use - in some places it is quite a problem. But the slight risk is not so great as to excuse certain rudeness.

Oh for feck's sake. Don't ruin an otherwise sensible post. Satanists, such as there are, are schoolkids having a laugh. Most wouldn't know what a consecrated host is anyway.

On the same subject, one gets the impression that few posters here have had much involvement with a typical Church of England or RC compehensive. When I was involved as a priest with a church comprehensive, at which there were two compulsory 'whole school' Eucharists a term, we always had to go around all the seats collecting the unconsumed hosts (usually about a dozen or so) that had been left inside hymn books or in flower arrangements (not sure how efficacious they are with cut flowers). Undoubtedly some left the building in pupils' pockets or bodily orifices, but there was not much we could do about it except leave God to sort it out. An RC friend reported much the same thing happening in the RC comp. in his parish.

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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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quote:
they probably had the Full English Breakfast just before they went.
And they parked their wad of chewing gum on the underside of the pew.
[edited to attribute quote to Ariel]

Getting grumpy now,

Leetle M.

[ 14. April 2005, 18:03: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

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quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
One of my most faithful parishioners every Sunday morning breaks the host in half, consuming one half and putting the other in her handbag.

The Fiddlebackerie is clearly just a Jesus Take Away.

Just think, if Fiddleback were ever martyred this lady could sell all these half-hosts on ebay and make a fortune.

Back to the Original Post. Do you suppose the purchaser of the papal host ate it when it arrived? Did he genuflect as the postman came up the walk?

Does Ritual Notes have a section for dealing with a Host in the post?

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ONUnicorn
Shipmate
# 7331

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quote:
Aren't you supposed to let it melt in your mouth,like butter or maltesers, you know instead of all that biting ?
What do God and M&Ms have in common?

They melt in your mouth, not in your hand!

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

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"A pig's snout is NOT an electrical outlet."

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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846

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quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Yes, Satanists do acquire Consecrated Hosts for use - in some places it is quite a problem. But the slight risk is not so great as to excuse certain rudeness.

Oh for feck's sake. Don't ruin an otherwise sensible post. Satanists, such as there are, are schoolkids having a laugh. Most wouldn't know what a consecrated host is anyway.

On the same subject, one gets the impression that few posters here have had much involvement with a typical Church of England or RC compehensive. When I was involved as a priest with a church comprehensive, at which there were two compulsory 'whole school' Eucharists a term, we always had to go around all the seats collecting the unconsumed hosts (usually about a dozen or so) that had been left inside hymn books or in flower arrangements (not sure how efficacious they are with cut flowers). Undoubtedly some left the building in pupils' pockets or bodily orifices, but there was not much we could do about it except leave God to sort it out. An RC friend reported much the same thing happening in the RC comp. in his parish.

Obviously the schools in question were not teaching the kids on the importance of the Eucharist and therefore a 'whole school' Mass was not appropriate. Morning Worship is quite sufficient in a school envioroment with Mass as a separate service later for those who wish to recieve the sacrament or those who would wish to recieve a blessing.

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
I said to her "EAT IT NOW!!!" and she quickly ate it!

quote:
I didn't yell - I hissed.
If nothing else comes of this, at least 103's ability to grab people and hiss "Eat it now" will come in handy when he begins hanging out in less-than-reputable cinemas [Big Grin]

Which may come sooner than we all suspected given later revelations in this thread [Biased]

Sarkycow

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
# 3571

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((aside to Orthodox Plot peeps... I wasnt talking about *this* thread, if you read my post I was talking about the effect of the ship in general [Big Grin] ))
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Siena

Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574

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From 103:

quote:
Obviously the schools in question were not teaching the kids on the importance of the Eucharist and therefore a 'whole school' Mass was not appropriate. Morning Worship is quite sufficient in a school envioroment with Mass as a separate service later for those who wish to recieve the sacrament or those who would wish to recieve a blessing.

So, just to recap, 103, in addition to being

1. Super Eucharistic Minister, valiantly defending the Body of Christ from Satanists and the vaguely confused; and

2. Mind-reading spiritual director, who knew that yelling at someone would bring her closer to God;

is also an

3. Expert on religious education who knows far more than priests about what should be done, and precisely what liturgies a school full of children are or are not qualified to attend.

Just want to make sure I'm keeping up.

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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson

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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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quote:
Orthodox Plot peeps... I wasnt talking about *this* thread
Fair enough, Emma! I just couldn't bear to pass up the opportunity--your posts are so good and they further the discussion extremely well. [Smile]

--------------------
eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Can we not have a bit of sniping, even in a thread about old biddies taking home Jesus to spread on their flower garden, without a bit of the "Shine Orthodox Shine" stuff?

The Orthodox require regular shining and polishing? How very high maintenance! [Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
The Orthodox require regular shining and polishing? How very high maintenance! [Smile]

It's all the tat -- the fans, and the censers, and the candlestands, and all the altarware, and everything else that needs all the shining.

In fact, we're having a work party at Church this Saturday to shine everything up for Pascha. Feel free to join us, if you like!

--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846

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quote:
Originally posted by Sienna:
3. Expert on religious education who knows far more than priests about what should be done, and precisely what liturgies a school full of children are or are not qualified to attend.

Just want to make sure I'm keeping up.

Well I have spent most of my life in a school envioroment! I think I am qualified to say!
And what the fuck is this about cinemas?

-103

[GET IT RIGHT!!! GET IT RIGHT, NOW!!!!]

[ 14. April 2005, 21:19: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
chive

Ship's nude
# 208

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103, it's the fact that you've spent all your life in the school environment which makes you qualified to say about, oh, fuck all. It's life experience that gives folk added value. That'll happen when you grow up a wee bit.

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ONUnicorn
Shipmate
# 7331

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quote:
103, it's the fact that you've spent all your life in the school environment which makes you qualified to say about, oh, fuck all. It's life experience that gives folk added value. That'll happen when you grow up a wee bit.

Oh really? I'm a bit older than 103, I'm 24, almost 25. I have spent virtually all my life in a school environment also, and intend to spend more of it when I get enough money saved up to go to law school. I am also of the opinion that it would be nice to one day get my masters and doctoral degrees in political science. In other words, I intend to spend a great deal more of my life in a school environment.

If spending most of your life in a school environment entitles you to say, "oh, fuck all," then I guess all those teachers and professors are entitled to say, "oh, fuck all." I guess the doctors and dentists who make sure you are healthy are entitled to say, "oh, fuck all."

If on the other hand, you meant to say that the fact that he is young entitles him to say, "oh, fuck all," then you have more of a point there. Nevertheless, some young people are incredibly intelligent and well-read, and many have tons of "life experiences" far beyond their years. Meanwhile, lots of older people are damn stupid, couldn't be arsed to read a book if their life depended on it, and haven't any "life experience" to speak of either.

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"A pig's snout is NOT an electrical outlet."

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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Lessee.

103 is Anglican.
I'm Anglican comunion. (ECUSA).

103 thinks he gets to be right since he's spent "most of his life in a school environment."
If that's the criterion, you ignorant moron, first off you need better GCSEs. Otherwise, everyone else outranks you. Then, you need to take into account all those here and abroad who have spent far more years of their lives in school environments. Unlike you, I've graduated high school, and then spent 10 years in higher education. Now *that's* spending your life in a school environment. And since I'm now applying to teach, I guess I'm gonna stay there. So I win! And that's just me. There's plenty of people on here with loads more education than me, and more imporatntly almost every one on here has both more education and life experience than you. You're not just rude any more, you're ignorant and stupid as well.

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
quote:
Originally posted by Sienna:
3. Expert on religious education who knows far more than priests about what should be done, and precisely what liturgies a school full of children are or are not qualified to attend.

Just want to make sure I'm keeping up.

Well I have spent most of my life in a school envioroment! I think I am qualified to say!
And what the fuck is this about cinemas?

-103

[GET IT RIGHT!!! GET IT RIGHT, NOW!!!!]

103, first off, get your code right.
Secondly, attending services that other people decided for you which to attend doesn't qualify you to make that decision for other people. And judging by the lack of maturity you repeatedly show on these boards, the time you should get to decide such things is a long way off.
Thirdly, if you don't know about the cinemas, that's further proof you know fuck all about the real world and what happens there.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

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I have happily left this debate, but just to clarify something in the last post, 103 has graduated high school.

As you were. [Smile]

[ETA - cross-posted with Go Anne Go. My reference to the 'last post' refers to the post before the 'last post' - (sigh))

[ 14. April 2005, 21:46: Message edited by: Back-to-Front ]

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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ONUnicorn
Shipmate
# 7331

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Just because he is young and does not have as much formal education as someone else doesn't mean he isn't entitled to have an idea or opinion every once in a while.

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"A pig's snout is NOT an electrical outlet."

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I have happily left this debate, but just to clarify something in the last post, 103 has graduated high school.

As you were. [Smile]

[ETA - cross-posted with Go Anne Go. My reference to the 'last post' refers to the post before the 'last post' - (sigh))

BTF - Don't be confused by the fact he goes to "college." That's a sixth form college, which is part of what we in the USA would call High School. It is not post-high school education.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by ONUnicorn:
Just because he is young and does not have as much formal education as someone else doesn't mean he isn't entitled to have an idea or opinion every once in a while.

True.

But just because he's entitled to have one doesn't make him right. Particularly when it involves driving people from church, grabbing them and hissing at them.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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ONUnicorn
Shipmate
# 7331

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I thought the comments about his education were directed at post #313, which was talking about something else entierly.

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"A pig's snout is NOT an electrical outlet."

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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
BTF - Don't be confused by the fact he goes to "college." That's a sixth form college, which is part of what we in the USA would call High School. It is not post-high school education.

Thanks Go Anne Go.

I am aware that college and sixth form are the same thing. I understand that on your side of the pond, college is also used to mean university, which is something I have learnt through the Ship, but I had thought that you used college to refer to university as well as sixth form rather than instead of. It seems I was wrong.

Here in the UK where 103 and I are, college or sixth form is post-high school education. Therefore, he has graduated high school.

[ 14. April 2005, 21:53: Message edited by: Back-to-Front ]

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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Just as a final point of information, I would like to suggest that anyone interested in the appointment and function of Eucharistic Ministers in the Roman Catholic Church read the decree of Pope John Paul II entitled Redemptionis Sacramentum. see here

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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chive

Ship's nude
# 208

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I'm in the UK and I regard sixth form as school. I would regard a child to still be at school up and until they're A-Levels or Highers were completed.

103 is still very much a schoolboy.

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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shareman wrote:

quote:
One of these is that she went to a church where she didn't understand the tradition and attempted to take part. She made an error of practice and was dealt with harshly. One reason for this might be that she didn't care enough about the religious sensibilities of those around her to try to find out what she was doing before she did it. No-one seemed to have considered this. That and the remarks of some who seem to feel that respect for the Sacrament as expressed in some churches is a bit silly and can't be expected to take precedence over how people actually feel drove me to be a bit flowery in my expression. Ooooops!
For goodness sake! When I visit other Christian churches outside my particular tradition, I usually go with a toddler. Much of my time during the service is spent keeping an eye on said toddler. I usually do this when my husband is duty deacon at our church and the alternative is not going to church at all.

The presence of the toddler means I don't always have the opportunity to examine the ways things are done as carefully as I would like - and then copy them. So sometimes I get things wrong. That doesn't make me disrepectful or uncaring - just limited by circumstances.

In addition, people don't always point things out that a new visitor with a small child might find helpful - like if there is play area in a seperate room or where the creche is. [Big Grin] Particuarly if we've gone to a church where the tradition is that the children stay in for most or all of the service.

I have now been enlightened and realise that I have been doing things wrong. As I cannot guarantee to behave properly in a different church to my own I shouldn't go at all. Well, gosh ... As for the toddler [Eek!] Thanks for making us feel welcome and all. [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed] And people wonder why the church is in decline [brick wall]

Tubbs

[ 14. April 2005, 21:59: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
BTF - Don't be confused by the fact he goes to "college." That's a sixth form college, which is part of what we in the USA would call High School. It is not post-high school education.

Thanks Go Anne Go.

I am aware that college and sixth form are the same thing. I understand that on your side of the pond, college is also used to mean university, which is something I have learnt through the Ship, but I had thought that you used college to refer to university as well as sixth form rather than instead of. It seems I was wrong.

Here in the UK where 103 and I are, college or sixth form is post-high school education. Therefore, he has graduated high school.

In the USA, once you graduate high school, you go to college, which is where you get your undergraduate degree. If you attend a university, that is a place which also awards post-graduate degrees. We do not have sixth forms. By US standards, 103 has not graduated high school.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Peronel

The typo slayer
# 569

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quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:

Here in the UK where 103 and I are, college or sixth form is post-high school education. Therefore, he has graduated high school.

Bollocks. Absolute bollocks. The sixth form is part of High School. Its an optional part, sure. But its still definately school rather than higher education.

The fact that in some areas sixth forms are consolidated into sixth form colleges is irrelevant.

Peronel.

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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.

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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
Bollocks. Absolute bollocks.

No, those are something quite different. Been a little sheltered?

quote:
The sixth form is part of High School. Its an optional part, sure. But its still definately school rather than higher education.
Who said it was part of higher education? It's further education - neither high school nor higher education.

quote:
The fact that in some areas sixth forms are consolidated into sixth form colleges is irrelevant.
The fact that some high schools have sixth forms attached is irrelevant.

[ 14. April 2005, 22:11: Message edited by: Back-to-Front ]

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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Shareman, hell is certainly the place to be hyperbolic! There's the teeniest, inciest, winciest possibility I've indluged in it myself from time to time! Just a 'tad' as you noticed [Biased] !

'Dare' was inspired (unconsciously, I think) from your phrase 'to have the temerity to'. And you're quite right it can be daring to come into God's presence. I think 'temerity' with its overtones that she had done something rash and foolish in coming to church was what made me baulk a little. Or the idea that she was being deliberately reckless in coming to the service, just seemed a bit strange.

It seemed to say that unless people had done their homework on us, they shouldn't risk coming to church! 'Temerity' in terms of church going, in my mind, fits in more with people who get drunk and stagger in at the back of church of an evening and start singing 'The Sash' or 'Nellie Dean'. In which case, I'm quite prepared to allow the churchwardens full reign with their wands of office!

I'm more inclined to view someone's unorthodox behaviour, in a peer-group situation where comforming is the norm, as either lack of knowledge of how to behave in that place, confusion or some other non-sinister reason; than to assume they are being disrespectful or malicious. You seemed to assume, very strongly, that she couldn't possibly just have been an ordinary person who got something wrong.

And I would include in 'ordinary' someone who may well have been inattentive and neglectful. At least I hope it's 'ordinary' to be sometimes inattentive and neglectful, even at the most crucial moments when we should be at our 'holiest'. God help me, and all of us, if there's no margin for ordinary human error.

And the fact that she had got it wrong seemed to you to be either her deliberate fault, or the result of some desperately bad attitude. Of course, she is responsible for her behaviour. I don't see that anywhere it's been suggested she isn't. I think you may be reading some posts hyperbolically as well as writing them!

The process of catechumenizing you mention is still done, I believe in some Churches/denominations. But so long as Anglican services are open to anyone who does wander in off the street, inevitably some people will get it wrong. If, sincerely, we'd rather not have to deal with that, then it might be better for our peace of mind to find a place where such incidents are less likely to occur.

I don't always like the irregularities that face us from time to time during worship, but it goes with the territory. And funnily enough often provides suprizingly useful opportunities for interesting conversation afterwards with the person in question.

As for disruption. I said in an earlier post that where people have been unsure about what to do with the bread and wine, they've quietly been guided. No disruption at all. The people who visit and 'do what they like', in my church, tend to be under five and under the jurisdiction of their parents! If I ever did perceive a disrespectful attitude to the reception of the host (which has happened on one occasion), I would be just as polite and quiet as with the others, but more serious.

I agree with what you say about people behaving with decorum and so on. Of course life would be easier if everyone did the same thing, acted intelligently, and never stepped out of line. But I don't think - from what we've been told - that she behaved in a disrespectful, rude or indecorous way. She may well have been feeling all those things, who knows. But her behaviour as recorded indicates she merely goofed, or at worst was not being the sharpest tool in the box.

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Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
# 3571

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i think 6th form college depends on the area personally. In hampshire all the schools stop at 16, and the 6th form colleges and fe colleges really are very very different atmosphere - far more like uni.

anyway - thats not to say I think 103 is at all right in his behaviour....

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!

-103

I don’t think I qualify as Catholic-minded, but I’ll try.

103 was acting as a Eucharistic minister for the first time. It is clearly a responsibility which he takes very seriously. Part of that responsibility (in his church, according to the priest in charge) is to ensure that the consecrated bread is properly consumed. As this is the first time he’s done the job, I’m sure he is thinking more about remembering the proper words to say, and hoping he won’t spill the consecrated wine to have a script prepared for ‘what to say if someone walks off with the host’. I doubt he had given it any advance thought at all.

I think he did very well to say anything at all, rather than stand there dumbfounded. Given his belief about the eucharist, and the proper respect to be shown, he had to say something, and what he said was not excessive as an instantaneous reaction (though doubtless it could have been more tactful if he had time to reflect).


It might be said of his approach that:

quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
It's a fucking stupid belief.

But one shared by much of the Christian world, and (more importantly) the particular church service in which 103 was participating. If the belief is ‘fucking stupid’, you can criticise the whole Catholic and Catholic-minded church for turning up to Mass at all, but not for acting appropriately once they are there.

I don’t happen to think that consecrated bread is to be treated with exactly the same respect as we might treat Jesus visibly incarnate as man. 103 apparently does. While he holds that view, it must surely, on any possible alternative view, be better for him to follow his conscience and show God proper reverence than deny the Creator what 103 thinks is His due.

My only misgiving about 103’s conduct was expressed by:

quote:
Originally posted by The Alchemist:
I imagine that I'd do something similar to 103 in the circumstances - I'd try to be as polite as I could, but in the heat of the moment I probably wouldn't do very well. However, I'd try to find the woman after the service and explain why I said what I said, and apologise for saying it rudely.

I agree. By that time he’d had time to reflect and consider the possible injury to her feelings – even if he still thought that injury was necessary earlier, that’s no reason not to repair the damage afterwards. I would understand, though, if he was worrying about whether he’d been right, and just didn’t think to do this.


I fail to see what difference 103's age or schooling makes to anyone who isn't a patronising wanker too lazy to consider an issue on its merits.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846

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This thread is getting stupid now from "eeeuuuughhh - Blasphemous Desecration on Ebay" to "Is 103 an absolute bastard and will he go to hell when he dies?" to "Let's call 103 a schoolboy and debate whether he is in high school or not"
Just fuck off the lot of you, you are really annoying me you stupid little moaning fucks. I think I was right and none of you have the right to tell me that I wasn't. You weren't there, you aren't me!
Go back to your little churches where you are allowed to take your communion home as a sovienier or to feed to your flowers and shut up now.
This thread has gone onto a meg@ tangent which is just stupid now.

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Peronel

The typo slayer
# 569

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

I fail to see what difference 103's age or schooling makes to anyone who isn't a patronising wanker too lazy to consider an issue on its merits.

I'd agree with this. But the first person to use 103's schooling to justify his opinions was 103 himself. Once he'd added to the thread, it's not unreasonable that people can comment.

Emma, you may well be right. Where I am 6th form education is part and parcel of the high schools. They wear the same uniform, the works. But we have middle schools, so high school doesn't start til later. If the sixth form years were lost as well, then kids would be out of highschool in an eyeblink. But I'm willing to buy that it varies county by county.

Blimey, how this thread has tangented!

Peronel.

--------------------
Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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I suppose that really, what has bothered me almost more than ANYTHING ELSE about 103s conduct is this key bit:
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Please can I have some backup from some Catholic Minded people here? I did right and I know it!

-103

First off, if he's so sure he's right, why does he need backup?

Secondly, in the face of getting very very little backup, and getting a lot of condemnation, his response was to:
1) change his story from the graphic to the less graphic and then back again.
and
2) ask for more backup.

It is the arrogance of the initial act, the arrogance in refusing to accept that most people think that while his defense of his faith may be noble, his actions were rude and immature, the arrogance of "I did right and I know it!" (twice), the desperate begging for backup (which to me shows that he knows he was over the line, whatever he's begging for) and so on which just says he's lacking in many redeeming qualities, maturity quite possibly being the least of them!

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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chive

Ship's nude
# 208

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
This thread is getting stupid now from "eeeuuuughhh - Blasphemous Desecration on Ebay" to "Is 103 an absolute bastard and will he go to hell when he dies?" to "Let's call 103 a schoolboy and debate whether he is in high school or not"
Just fuck off the lot of you, you are really annoying me you stupid little moaning fucks. I think I was right and none of you have the right to tell me that I wasn't. You weren't there, you aren't me!
Go back to your little churches where you are allowed to take your communion home as a sovienier or to feed to your flowers and shut up now.
This thread has gone onto a meg@ tangent which is just stupid now.

Awwwwww bless [Killing me]

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
This thread is getting stupid now from "eeeuuuughhh - Blasphemous Desecration on Ebay" to "Is 103 an absolute bastard and will he go to hell when he dies?" to "Let's call 103 a schoolboy and debate whether he is in high school or not"
Just fuck off the lot of you, you are really annoying me you stupid little moaning fucks. I think I was right and none of you have the right to tell me that I wasn't. You weren't there, you aren't me!
Go back to your little churches where you are allowed to take your communion home as a sovienier or to feed to your flowers and shut up now.
This thread has gone onto a meg@ tangent which is just stupid now.

-103

And in a delightful cross post, we now have "I was right and I know it!" number three by 103.

Since I know which church he goes to, I'm a-getting sorely tempted to go down and walk off with a comunion wafer. Just to see what he does this time. Let the little weasel try to bring ME down in a rugby tackle, because I sure wouldn't be listening to his hiss or that grabbing on the shoulder.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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Hmmmmmmm, in trying to find a website for 103s church (which I'm not going to name here as that seems too much), I found an MW report on it from here on SOF! It contained this interesting bit:
quote:
It was lovely to see children serving, and I apologise wholeheartedly for my remarks if the servers have special needs, but if not, they do need to be drilled. The smaller acolyte spent the duration of his Gospel duty sliding down the end of the pew until he reached a sitting posture. He then took one leg off the ground, and rocked backwards and forwards and grinned at all and sundry. The other acolyte acquitted himself well enough during the Gospel, but once the altar party had moved to the east end, could be seen hanging almost upside down from the altar rail and pulling on the decorative metalwork. The boat girl flounced and posed. Children much younger than these can be seen serving unobtrusively, with with great gravitas and polish all over the land.
Starts to tell you something about the training (or lack thereof????) 103 received, or even the care with with children are chosen for their lack of training down at this church.

But wait, it gets better....(and even more amusing under the circumstances)...
quote:
The distribution of communion was anarchical. There was a standing-only distribution point under the pulpit, and a kneeling one at the altar rail. There was an unseemly and thoroughly aggressive stampede as people left their pews and careered forwards, swapping from north to south and vice versa depending upon their preferred mode of reception. One feared for small children and fragile geriatrics.
Throw in a little grabbing and hissing, and indeed I do fear for them!

It all starts to come into focus now. Run for your lives! It's the Eucharist!

[ 14. April 2005, 22:56: Message edited by: Go Anne Go ]

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

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quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Just as a final point of information, I would like to suggest that anyone interested in the appointment and function of Eucharistic Ministers in the Roman Catholic Church read the decree of Pope John Paul II entitled Redemptionis Sacramentum. see here

That would be relevant if 103 was an EM at an RC church. He isn't. It's an Anglican church. Although, from my understanding from various past discussions in MW/Eccles, it is far from representative of even most AC churches.

Sieg

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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846

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Things have changed a lot since then. (It's now even more hectic now actually :S) but that's not the point!

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

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quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Things have changed a lot since then. (It's now even more hectic now actually :S) but that's not the point!

-103

What is the point, then?

Sieg

Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Max.
Shipmate
# 5846

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Oh! Go away!

[Paranoid]

-103

--------------------
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged



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