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Source: (consider it) Thread: Heaven: SoF Idol
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Actually, I suspect the real reason the judges are taking so long is that this time Belisarius posted such an erudite challenge that they need time to brush up on their Ancient History and Theology before they can judge just how deep and relevant (or not) we were all being. How long does it take to do a PhD in the Christianisation of the Late Roman Empire these days? [Snore]

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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THIS judge submitted her evaluations on January 4, to be precise. Methinks the holdup lies across the pond.

(But you're right -- the posting was a little more involved this time. I finally just gave up trying to figure out what everyone was saying, and just started throwing out random scores, based on how much I actually like you.)

--------------------
Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Chorister gets in her time machine and travels back in time to just before Christmas. Tiptoeing up to Grits's stocking, she stuffs it full of yummy Creamtealand goodies. There, that should do it! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I finally just gave up trying to figure out what everyone was saying, and just started throwing out random scores, based on how much I actually like you.

Oh dear. [Frown] [Help]

--------------------
.

Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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Well, I guess I'll be missing both the judging and the elimination, because I am heading off to the wilds of New Zealand for three weeks, and don't know if I'll see many internet cafes. [Frown]

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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.

Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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All the judgments have come in.

However, I forgot to e-mail what I had already to my home addy. [brick wall]

I promise to have everything up tomorrow morning.

--------------------
Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548

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quote:
Originally posted by Belisarius:


I promise to have everything up tomorrow morning.

[Eek!] No man's ever said that to me before...

[ 09. January 2005, 21:25: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]

--------------------
"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512

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quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Well, I guess I'll be missing both the judging and the elimination, because I am heading off to the wilds of New Zealand for three weeks, and don't know if I'll see many internet cafes. [Frown]

You may see more than you want to, as you're not going to be spending much time outside the way summer is going.

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.

Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
How long does it take to do a PhD in the Christianisation of the Late Roman Empire these days? [Snore]

About, oh, six years?

[Paranoid]

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I finally just gave up trying to figure out what everyone was saying, and just started throwing out random scores, based on how much I actually like you.)

Did I mention I was in Dudley Richter's little emporium Saturday and after picking up a little ring for moi saw something I just had to get for you?

It was more than I meant to pay but that Van Cleef and Arpel diamond spray broach just screamed your name somehow. That's not what I got you, but it did scream your name.

Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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It's obvious that the entire contest has been compromised by this revelation. I say replace Grits with someone impartial and objective and start the whole thing over! [Devil]

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--Formerly: Gort--

Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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Goodies from Chorister may be quite continental,
But diamonds are a girl's best friend.
Kiwi kiss may be grand, but he won’t pay the rental
On my humble flat. Will MadGeo give up being Democrat?
Duchess seems cold, and Rossweisse grows old.
LatA's and Vikki’s boobs lose their charms in the end.
But square-cut or pear-shape,
My votes aren't for their shape --
Diamonds are a girl's best friend!


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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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quote:
Originally posted by Grits:

LatA's and Vikki’s boobs lose their charms in the end.

Clearly, madam, you have not seen either of mine.

[ 10. January 2005, 04:41: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]

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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.

Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548

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I'd like to second that.

This entire competition was compromised when someone pointed out I was the only one not sucking up to Belisaurus. [Disappointed]

I'll try harder next time.

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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
Purgatory thread "Was the Late Roman Empire Really Christian

You reckon going to Duran Duran concerts is not Christian?

KISS MY SWEETBREAD! [Mad]

Look, I have gone to various Duran Duran concerts over the years, Missy. The very first one I missed since I forged a note from my mother and my school dean caught me. I was cleaning lockers when a math teacher walked by with his lady friend. To impress her, he made fun of me. "HA HA, you have to clean the lockers!" His lady friend told him to knock it off...felt sorry for me...so there he did not impress her. [Razz] HA HA.

Later on, I made up for this horrible experience of missing the Simon LeBon dance moves....the Reflex...the Reflex...I started attending every cotton-picking Duran Duran concert that came to the Bay Area. As in Roman Times, momma likes her entertainment. Here they are in SF Xmas Eve
this year. They perform in the Bay Area in March btw. Gotta get me another tee-shirt...yet I disgress...

Anyway, In fact the Romans had their Duran Duran people. One though was John the Baptist. His head was chopped off Matthew 14:10. I am sure girlfriend was Roman Beetch.

This brings me to my point...Was the Late Roman Empire Really Christian? Nope...cuz they chopped good Christian guys' heads off...like poor ol' John. Good thing John Taylor doesn't preach the gospel at dinner tables like John the Baptist. I would be upset to see his metrosexual head sliced off. Hopefully he won't go to Iraq either and get butchered.

Yes, I am sick...but my point is the Romans killed Christians. Like me! I would have been used for lion food...shudder.

True Christians are ones that take the bible literally but bible inerrancy is a Dead Horse, so I'll drop the subject..so I WON'T GO THERE.

[eta: I itch to open this dead horse since I am always RIGHT]

SARKYCOW:
quote:
Well, there was certainly a maximum of effort put into that. It’s just a shame that you simply leapt in to your area of interest, without first linking it to the Roman Empire. A late, clumsy linking is no good dear, not in Purgatory, where DS would eat you for breakfast if she spotted a gratuitous tangent. But well done for finding such a naturally fitting dead horse, and whipping it so fervently. I also liked the edit at the end, adding another comment about the DH; it made a wonderful finishing touch.
Points: 2

GRITS:
quote:
As usual, your post is clear as mud. You have a style all your own, girl. Don't ever change.
Points: 2

STOO:
quote:
Can't say I understood that at all. Our contestant was obviously pepped up on goof balls when she penned that post.

Not gonna get many points from me for this one, especially when there is a postscript to the phrase with which you were supposed to end.

Points: 0

Total Score: 4

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I have to take issue with your last post about Christianity being firmly established in the Byzantine Empire, Father Gregory. I took an introductory course in college on Byzantine history and culture and did a fair amount of research on the subject, so although certainly not an expert I do know a little bit about it.

One of the more interesting characters in this context is Michael Psellus the younger, on whom I wrote a term paper. I think he is typical of the late Roman/Byzantine mind. You have to realize that by his time (the 11th century) the Western Empire and Rome were lost. Only the Eastern Empire and Constantinople remained, and it was under enormous pressure. Although it was officially still the "Roman" empire, its thought and its culture were essentially Greek. I mention Psellus in particular since although he was actually a monk, his devotion to Neo-Platonism made his orthodoxy suspect to the church fathers. As I found during my research, he was largely responsible for a resurgence of Neo-Platonism. Indeed his advocacy of Platonic philosophy as ideally integrable with Christian doctrine initiated a renewal of Byzantine classical learning that later influenced the Italian Renaissance.

Essentially Neo-Platonism can be defined as:

· 1. Hierarchy of spheres of being, ending with ordinary reality (being in space-time).
· 2. The series is a causal chain.
· 3. Series begins with a principle which is the source of all being.
· 4. The supreme principle, the One, is beyond being, is unique, and utterly simple.
· 5. Each successive sphere is more complex, and more deterministic.
· 6. The knowledge of the One is above predicative knowledge.


I think one can easily see how a devotion to Neo-Platonism is difficult to reconcile with true orthodoxy. So was Psellus "really Christian"? Perhaps not in the strictest sense. But I admire him as something of a rebel against the strict and unyielding hierarchy of the Orthodox Church of his time. Although since he pre-dated the Council of Florence, "Orthodoxy" as such didn’t yet exist. Unfortunately the seeds were already being planted for the somewhat closed-minded and exclusive attitude we see today in the Orthodox denomination, as exemplified in their almost hysterical claims to be the "one, true church" and their closed table fellowship, determined to put themselves "inside" and nearly everybody else "outside". But that’s certainly a dead horse, and I’m not going to go there.

SARKYCOW:
quote:
Off to a fine start, with the obligatory disclaiming of credentials. And how clever to mimic those PITAs who have taken one intro college course and so know everything about a subject [Smile] You then followed this with a well-thought-out, and structured main argument, ostensibly answering the question, when in reality, all you were doing is bringing us to the edge of a DH topic. However, your ending felt a little hasty, pet, almost as if you were bored with the DH. I suggest you work hard on polishing this aspect of your posting style.
Points: 3

GRITS:
quote:
I'm feeling a little "outside" myself after reading that post. You have lots of free time, don't ya, bro? By the way, is the "P" silent in Psellus?
Points: 3

STOO:
quote:
An example of a perfect Purgatory post here. It is pompous, waffling and the tangent is sufficiently pseudo-intelligent to produce no more than a few posts on its subject.

Unfortunately, the final phrase was mangled with an illegal improvisation, and so full marks cannot be awarded.

Points: 2

Total Score: 8--Two Extra Votes

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The Christian influence of the Emperor Constantine has lived on in the story of his namesake in Cornwall (a part of the world with which I am very familiar): St. Petroc gave shelter to a fawn which was being pursued by Prince Constantine and cast a spell on him so he could not move. The spell was only broken when the Prince agreed to become a Christian. The prince was sent to Constantine Bay and became a hermit - the ruins of the little church of St. Constantine and the holy well can still be visited at Constantine Bay - I'd recommend it as a holiday destination.

Of course, forcing someone to become a Christian by means of a spell involves witchcraft and sorcery, which, as the bible expressly states in Revelation 21:8 will condemn the perpetrators to death in the lake that burns with sulphurous flames. [Mad] [Eek!] Poor St. Petroc and (by consequent invalidation of his conversion) poor St. Constantine! That is assuming, of course, that you believe every word in the bible is to be taken literally – but Biblical Inerrancy is a Dead Horse, so I'll drop the subject.

SARKYCOW:
quote:
A lovely, little post, flawlessly bringing it into an area of expertise for you. The touching emotional-porn-type story, followed by a proof-text were a perfect one-two with which to hit your readers, before delivering the coup d’etre of the DH.
Points: 3

GRITS:
quote:
Wow! Spells and wells and hell... oh, my! You've given us quite a visual with this post. I just didn't get the last part. You mean there are people who don't believe every word is true?
Points: 2

STOO:
quote:
A decent enough post fulfilling all the necessary criteria. Obviously, it wouldn't get any replies though, due to it being far too boring.

Not really much to say other than that.

Points: 1

Total Score: 6--Two Extra Votes

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Saying that Rome under Constantine was Christian is kind of like saying the Australian Labor Party is "The New Right". 5 - 10% of it might be, but the rest hangs on to the old commie ways.

You know, the 1950s for the Labor Party was pretty drastic. Ended with the Catholics packing their bags and forming their own party and Labor spending years in the wilderness.

And then along comes a man with vision. Gough Whitlam. He's the Constantine of the Labor Party. He's seen the light and he wants it to be spread far and wide. It's Time.

He wants to change the order in the Labor Party and society and make principles of equality and fairness standard for all. He's got his men to bring the good word and make that change. Lionel Murphy, Jim Cairns and their ilk. These are the True Believers and they've seen the light and there's changes in the law and society, all overseen by Gough.

But it doesn't happen straight away. After the initial surge to adopt the great leader's "religion", it all goes pear-shaped.

The internal bickering within the party leads to schisms and factions that are truly comparable with the early church. You end up with this group calling itself "Labor" but so much at war with each other that its hard to tell that they all share a common vision. The rift that developed in 325 reminds me of a Labor Caucus meeting. All bickering away and threatening to take their bats and balls and go home.

Basically, they are all Lefties, trying to reinvent themselves to win popularity.

Most recently, there's this gay marriage debate.
But even in the Labor Party, the issue of Gay Marriage is a dead Horse, and I'm definitely not going there.

SARKYCOW:
quote:
Lovely. A wonderful comparison between the OP topic, and your expertise topic, allowing you to really take off in discussion of a topic about which you actually know something. The final nod that gay marriage is a DH within the Labour Party, and so you wouldn’t discuss that is fantastic. I’d give you 4 if Bel would let me.
Points: 3

GRITS:
quote:
You Aussies just luv your politics, don't ya? Left/Right, Labor/Gay, potayto/potahto - who really cares?
Points: 2

STOO:
quote:
For me, the tangent was far too losely linked to the initial subject. Again, the post fulfilled most of the criteria, but the final phrase was improvised and obscured.

Plus, you colonialists spell 'labour'incorrectly.

Points: 1

Total Score: 6--Two Extra Votes

--------------------
Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
That's an interesting thought, GutAche. Welcome to the Ship!

However I think if you're going to compare evangelising Ancient Rome to bringing the message of Christ to 21st century Britain, you are on potentially dodgy ground.

For a start, I disagree with your theory that people were encouraged to vomit as a sign of their spiritual insight in the midst of an evening's carousing. In fact, I'm not too sure people were encouraged to vomit at all... Popular Fallacy )

I also think it is stretching too many points to look to the Romans for signs of spiritual awakening in a Christian context (though others may disagree). It is generally held that the Empire went through a period of extreme societal degeneration before coming to its end. I think that far from being a pointer to the power of the Gospel to change our lives, it is perhaps more an indication of the danger we are currently in of total cultural breakdown.

It is easy to look back and jeer at Emperors holding elaborate funerals for dead horses, the stereotype of people binge-eating and vomiting all evening and gratuitous sex on every street corner. I wonder if there isn't an element of projection here, of us desperately seeking our image in the past, to reassure us that we are not alone in our pursuit of hedonism?

I can't think of any period in history where the world was so divided into rich and poor, fat and thin. We wring our hands helplessly as we see our children exerting less and less physical energy, and becoming fatter and fatter. People smile indulgently as 'celebrities' fat enough to be slaughtered and feed a small African village try desperately to lose five pounds for the cameras in some awful reality TV show. We allow multi-national companies to poison us, stuffing us with additives ("NOW WITH SALAD!!") which in all probability are pre-disposing children to hyperactivity, as well as making them all clones of that disgusting child in the Double-Deckers... Aaaaaaaaaargh!!

So I think to say that present-day Britain echoes the Late Roman Empire is to over-simplify the truth about what the LRE was like, and to under-estimate the scale of our dependency on America. As far as I know, there were no fast food chains from the Unknown West in late Rome.

But 'soon we'll all be as fat as Americans' is a Dead Horse, so I'll drop the subject.

SARKYCOW:
quote:
Sweetheart, this post feels as if you hastily threw it together, not entirely sure of either the challenge of the round, or, in fact, what a DH actually is. You didn’t particularly name your field of expertise, or establish your credentials within it either. All this meant that, although your post was a good, strong Purgatorial contender, it didn’t wholly fit within the guidelines laid out by Bel for this round. I’d advise you to set aside a little more time to both read the challenge, and respond, next round.
Points: 2

GRITS:
quote:
What a downer! Vomiting, sex, starving Africans, clones... who hid your Prozac? Besides, there are no fat Americans, only anorexic Europeans.
Points: 2

STOO:
quote:
Well, I have to say that I am stunned.

This was, by far,of any of your posts in this competition, the absolute... best.

It was an excellent post for the topic, with just the one error - the scream. Screams really aren't Purgatorial in any way, but because of the nature of the rest of your post, I shall overlook this small error.

I can't see you winning, but I have to be honest and say that I'm now putting you as an outside chance.

Points: 3

Total Score: 7--Two Extra Votes

--------------------
Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
"Was the Late Roman Empire Really Christian?"

In his brilliant, ground-breaking book The Rise of Christianity: How the Obscure, Marginal Jesus Movement Became the Dominant Religious Force in the Western World in a Few Centuries, sociologist Rodney Stark makes a strong case that it was -- or was getting there, in numeric terms.

Stark demonstrates that Christianity grew at a rate of 40 percent per decade: from about 1,000 Christians in the year 40, to nearly 34 million in the year 350 -- or from 0.0017% of the population to 56.5%. While this rate of growth seems incredible, he points out that Mormonism has been doing the same thing in recent decades, growing exponentially by tapping networks of relatives and friends.

Of course, we don't know the extent to which the late Roman Empire really became culturally Christian. Although most of the early converts appear (according to Stark) to have come from the ranks of the Hellenized Jews of the Diaspora, once Christianity became official, it changed significantly in some ways. That's what brought about the monastic movement, and the waves of hermits moving into the desert. They wanted to escape the grandious New! Approved! Christianity.

Post-Constantine Christianity also seems to have downgraded the role of women in the Church, which was clearly much more prominent early on, to judge by both the Bible (paging Phoebe and Junia!) and secular sources.

But the ordination of women is a Dead Horse, so I'll drop it.

SARKYCOW:
quote:
A fabulous explosion of statistics to support your contentions about the Christianity (or not!) of the LRE. Yet, you didn’t really tell us why you are so expert within the field of sociology, which let your post down a little. As you segued so smoothly into a complete DH, however, I can but award you 3/3.
Points: 3

GRITS:
quote:
What can I say? Nice segue.
Points: 2

STOO:
quote:
This really is for me the best round of the game so far. The entries are, on the whole, very good.

This one is no exception. Its brevity is a great strength - all criteria are fulfilled without too much waffle. Believe me, at this stage in the game, that's an excellent thing.

Points: 3

Total Score: 8--Two Extra Votes

--------------------
Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Honorable Chihuahua,

Whether the late Roman Empire really was Christian is certainly up for debate. However, your allusion to America being “equivalent to the Roman Empire” is, at minimum, a logical fallacy.

I am a believer that history repeats itself too, but to assume that because we have some “hedonism”, some “wars that appear to be empire-building”, and a president with an “overdeveloped hard-on ( [Eek!] ) for Christianizing America”, that doesn’t necessarily follow that we are going to “collapse like the Roman Empire”. Slippery slope arguments are fine, if you’re Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore (pick a butthead), but you’re not. So please show me how A plus B plus C equals “collapses like the Roman Empire”.

I don’t like what the president has done much more than you apparently do, but America (and Europe for that matter) has been through a lot of this before. And we probably will not descend into city-states any time soon.

As for your references to America and Iraq War II causing Mexico to invade America, well that’s just preposterous and I would love to dismantle that argument.

But “Let’s Invade America” is a Dead Horse, so I'll drop the subject

SARKYCOW:
quote:
You do seem to enjoy arguing in defence of America, don’t you, poppet? However, your witticisms in this post, together with your meeting of both objectives of the round, combine to produce a good entry. As this is backed with sound, Purgatorial arguments, your entry hovers near the line demarking brilliance.

Points: 3

GRITS:
quote:
You almost crossed the lines of Purgatory. I did like you calling Michael Moore a butthead, though, 'cos he really is.
Points: 2

STOO:
quote:
Not bad at all.

"Let's invade America", however, is not a Dead Horse. It's just an incredibly stupid statement. Because of that, I'll have to deduct points.

Points: 1

Total Score: 6--Two Extra Votes

--------------------
Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by kiwigoldfish:

quote:
Originally posted by Christmas Pumpkin:
quote:
Originally posted by Yuletide Log:
Perhaps we could get Dr Who to go back and see how christian the Roman Empire was.

He already went there. It wasn't exactly Christian, just full of bad actors in poor costumes.
I'm afraid not, old bean. Certainly he went to Rome in 64 AD, but that's scarcely the time frame that we're talking about on this thread.

Of course, you may be talking about one of the novels written after the series was cancelled (the New Adventures series.) But they are not canonical and should not be accepted as literal truth. That status is reserved for the TV series (and perhaps the official BBC series of books.) However, the question of accepting the canon as literally true is a dead horse, and I'm not going to go there. [Biased]

SARKYCOW:
quote:
Well, you certainly made me laugh, hon. A casual and laid-back, yet snappy and sharp answer to two daft posts. You wonderfully fulfilled the criteria for the round, and your final twist on the DH gave that finishing touch to an already fabulous entry.
Points: 3

GRITS:
quote:
I liked it, 'cos who doesn't like Dr. Who?
Points: 3

STOO:
quote:
Again, the brevity is a bonus, and all criteria are fulfilled.

There was, however, a smilie sneaked in there. My opinions on them are well known.

Points: 2

Total Score: 8--Two Extra Votes

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

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Sinistærial
Ship's Lefty
# 5834

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quote:
STOO:
Plus, you colonialists spell 'labour'incorrectly.

Well, actually, we do know how to spell labour. It is the Labor party that does not know how to spell labour

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People laugh at me because I am different.
I laugh at other people because they are all the same.
æ = æ

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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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The Poll's results have been archived.

We regret to announce that Mad Geo lost this round.

ROUND 5: KERYGMANIA

This is the last round where the Judges will directly affect the Contestants' chances; each Contestant who scores 7 or higher will receive two extra votes.

Each Contestant will create an OP ostensibly to discuss a verse but that is also a backhanded swipe at a shipmate or a designated category of shipmates. The 10 Commandments and Kerygmania guidelines must be followed and Dead Horses must be avoided.

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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Doh!

Since I voted democrat this last time around, I demand a recount!!!!!

[Biased]

I woulda been sacked on Kerygmania anyway [Big Grin] .

Congratulations and good luck to all my opponents, especially Kiwigoldcarp.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512

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Judas, the "Kiss of Death" and vengeance

I'm looking for a "christian response" to a situation that I face. And as I read Luke's gospel this morning I got to thinking.

Luke 22:39-40
Jesus asked Judas, "Are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"

Obviously this is a pretty famous scene. And action ostensibly made in the name of friendship which ultimately betrays and brings about the demise of the one to whom it is made. We know that side of it pretty well, but what do we make of the attitude shown to Judas afterwards?

In later passages (and in the way the gospel writers handle Judas) there is almost a hint of gloating at his death, at the spilling of his guts. Is this a fair surmise of the attitude of the early church? It this a "christian response" to being shafted by a mate?

Recently I was given the "Kiss of Death" by another shipmate - on the surface of it an endorsement and a public show of support as he left the competition as a loser, but I can't help feeling like this will backfire spectacularly and leave me shafted in the next vote.

In Luke 22:51 Jesus stops the disciples from fighting back. Is this the norm? To wait until the betrayal and it's consequences are complete? Or is there a place for disemboweling someone here and now before it's too late?

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Jesus said, "Do not call any man on earth 'father'; for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." (Matt. 23:9, New English Bible).

I would like to know what this verse means in context of Christ's teachings, and also the practical outworking of the Christian Faith in the 21st Century. It has direct relevance and importance for those of us on board the ship as we are being forced to call one of our very own, 'Father Gregory'. I notice that some shipmates have taken to calling him 'Fregory' or 'Freggers' - is this because they believe Christ is commanding them to do so, or simply because his views are more acceptable if we treat him like a cuddly pet?
And what shall I call my vicar when I greet him on Sunday morning? [Confused]

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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…so I says to myself, "Self, you are screwed this round, ‘cause you don’t know a thing about the Bible, being an Episcopalian and all. And where the heck did Bel come up with this topic anyway?" Nor do I have a clue as to what goes on in Kerygmania.

So logically the first order of business seemed to be to scoot down to Kerygmania and familiarize myself with the milieu. Upon arrival I almost immediately stumble upon this gem, which as best I can tell more than fulfills the requirements. Indeed, one might think inspired the topic. So not being able to improve upon perfection, I present, courtesy of JimmyT:

Genesis 3:22 ("[Man] Must Not Be Allowed to Live Forever")

quote:
This thread was spawned from Sharkshooter's interest in a discussion as to why I would say that a "literal" reading of Genesis 3 (the kind of reading that assumes Adam and Eve did not have a bellybutton and Genesis is a factual news story rather than myth) leads to several points grounded in this one: Man's natural created state was mortality and not immortality. This is revealed in this verse (NIV):

Gen 3:22. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

If the Lord God actually said that Man must not be allowed to eat of the tree of life and live forever, Man's natural state at the time of his creation was mortality and not immortality. Only eating of the Tree of Life would grant immortality; therefore Man was created mortal, like animals.

I am fully aware that most Christians say that Man's natural state was immortality and that he was punished with mortality for disobedience, imparting a "fallen" state to all of humankind. But certainly a literal interpretation of Gen 3:22 makes it impossible to argue that Man's natural state was immortality. Man's natural state was mortality and immortality could only be gained by eating of the Tree of Life. Further, God clearly did not want this to happen for eternity, and eternally guards the source of immortality from Man.

Many very challenging issues arise from this, but I will not go into them yet. First, I am posting this as an invitation to all those, Fundamentalist or not, who believe that Man's natural state at the time of his creation was immortality. Gen 3:22 clearly says that Man was created mortal and intended by God never to obtain immortality.


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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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This looks like a really hard round guys. Still, you've all done really well up to now, and I'm sure we'll see some more superlative entries.

I don't know how anyone manages to vote on the polls. I've tried before, and I can't pick two people I like best out of all of you. You're all so good at this [Smile]

So, keep going. I know you can fly through this round.

Sarkycow, judge

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Wow, a pep-talk from a judge! I feel so...... empowered [Cool] (looks for muscle-flexing smilie)

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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Lawn Chairs and Mint Juleps are Skubalon to knowing Christ


I realise that the purpose of this board is for everyone to explore and learn together so don't think I am directing this at anyone in particular.

It is just that it seems to me that St. Paul was saying here in this verse, Philippians 3:8 KJV, in a round about way, that all material things are s--ty and hence bad, to knowing Christ. Let me explain.

You see, that extra lawn chair for sitting out on the porch, it is s--t, as is the mint julep that a certain nameless, dapper gentleman might gulp greedily on a hot summer's day*, it is gleaming, frothy
s--t , folks, not the true living water that Christ gives you. I mean that. Don't ever forget that.

My main point is that we Americans are used to excess, especially like in the South where I used to live and don't anymore, we make our lawn chairs and mint julep drinks idols, and idols are baaad. Jesus is what we want to win, not backyard excess crap, even if the lawn chair fits my fat butt comfortably. Please forgive me if I offended anybody but whenever I ponticate with my steel-plated bible, I get emotional. I guess it hits a little too close to home for me, well, even though I live in the big city far away from the South in NoCal. [Tear]

On a positive note, I feel I am finally on my way to knowing Christ better than many, I hope you can too. [Yipee]

*No certain shipmate cited here, it is just hypothetically speaking of course


[eta: I really mean that. For reals. [Angel] ]

[ 15. January 2005, 19:23: Message edited by: duchess ]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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Yikes! You make things tough for a heathen travelling sans Bible. What's the cut-off date for this challenge??

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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Wow, a pep-talk from a judge! I feel so...... empowered...

....or frightened....
[Help]

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512

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quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Yikes! You make things tough for a heathen travelling sans Bible. What's the cut-off date for this challenge??

In an act of Christian kindness and selfless compassion that other shipmates have come to expect of me, I found this passage to help LatA out in her hour of distress. Here you are, there are plenty of angles for you to work with on this one.

quote:
Eze 23:20
(20) She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose semen was like that of horses.


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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

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Eh, that one's gonna cost ye, Kiwi.

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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512

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I should add that LatA is only allowed to use that verse on the condition that she does not compare me unfavourably with the donkeys (or compare me with the horse semen - favourably or otherwise.)

[ETA: not that I'm insecure or anything.]

[ 16. January 2005, 05:27: Message edited by: kiwigoldfish ]

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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548

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Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. (Romans 14:15, NIV)

I'd like some help unpacking this one. Firstly, does this actually imply that we ought not to have moral absolutes? - that each of us should decided for ourselves what 'goes' and what doesn't?

It seems to me in context to be a bit of a turn-around, since the basic argument in the passage is surely that we shouldn't cause people to stumble by our choices. However, this verse slips in almost as a reminder that nor should we go on a guilt trip if they don't agree with our 'freedom' - if I read it right.

OR... should I be more narrow-minded about this? Should I be crusading in Hell, disagreeing vehemently in the Lord's Name with every rant which goes against my beliefs and principles?

Further, could I use this verse to justify personal attacks on here, for example, calling to Hell those who villified my breasts in verse, saying they would 'lose their charms' if I recall correctly, and passed it off as a joke (without having seen them, I may add), or the fellow-competitor who expressed amazement at my having made it through to this round? Should I, as a matter of good theology, take up with them the issue of their speaking evil of what I considered to be a perfectly good entry?

I would like to ask how people think we should balance this verse with the injunction to turn the other cheek - or even if we should try to do so.

It seems to me that this verse in Romans calls for a level of tolerance which, if it were adhered to, might close one or two threads on here, if not entire boards.

What think ye?

[ 16. January 2005, 13:50: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]

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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Wow, a pep-talk from a judge! I feel so...... empowered...

....or frightened....
[Help]

Ah, but I'd already posted my entry. Your turn..... [Big Grin]

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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LatA--

We're not in a particular rush; if you think you'll be able to post sometime this coming week, we'll be happy to wait.

Possibly Helpful Reference

Come of up with a swipe, then find a verse that fits. [Biased]

[ 17. January 2005, 01:14: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512

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Bel, since your here: What's the official position on lip-synching? A certain shipmate, who shall remain without name seems to have lipsynched his last performance.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Perhaps we should re-christen him Milli Vanilli? Question is, does he have the hair for it?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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[Sorry--am back now...]

The "he" sort of gave it away; not very familiar with Kerygmania myself, I only glanced at the post during the short time I was on yesterday. This post does present a problem:

quote:
Posts will be judged on any or all of the following: originality, effectiveness, humor, visual appeal, and correct spelling/punctuation/grammar [Emphasis mine].
The "lip-synching" (to be fair, openly acknowledged) wasn't specfically forbidden, but if the post isn't resubmitted, I'm sure the judging will be strongly affected by this action.

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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I thought plagiarizing someone else's post was very original. Nobody else had done it.

Actually, my extremely fragile ego can't stand losing, so I thought it better to get thrown off for cheating.

If you think I'm joking I'm not. I'm one sick puppy.

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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Romans 1:16-18 (New International Version):
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith."
(Here's a link from Bible.gospelcom.net)

Not for nothing is the Letter to the Romans (arguably, at least) Paul's Greatest Hit. I find this particular passage interesting for several reasons, especially the questions it raises in my mind about the nature of the Church and its authority.

As an Anglican, I do believe that the Historic Episcopacy (aka the "Apostolic Succession") is important. One must have authority, after all, and why not the original issue? But I also have problems with the notion that there is, or can be, Just One True Church, the sole gateway to God's grace and favor.

Our Roman Catholic and Orthodox Shipmates will no doubt disagree with me on this issue, since, as they regularly point out, they are each members of The One True Church. Of course, the Two True Churches seem to be mutually exclusive in many ways. (And I don't mean to leave out the members of any of the other One True Churches; space issues prevent me from listing them all.)

This passage seems to me to indicate that faith is the most important element for salvation. Where do specific church bodies fit into this equation? I would be interested in exploring your ideas of what this passage really means. (No Greek, please!)

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Some interesting overnight developments - now if I'd not already submitted my entry, I would be frantically looking up bible verses to come up with one speaking against cheating - or copying - so I could have a side swipe at Sine. Or I could have even more fun finding a verse, in one of the letters of Paul for example, where he applauds someone sincerely trying to imitate a good example. Then I could have a side swipe at those who were having a side swipe at Sine. What fun! [Two face]
Unfortunately, my entry is already in the can....... Ah, well.......

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
...Unfortunately, my entry is already in the can....... Ah, well.......

At least it's DONE. And you and I can now relax -- aside from sneaking glances at this topic to see if the judges' rulings have been posted yet -- for a couple of days, at least.

Rossweisse // join me in some mulled wine, Chorister?

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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Sitting in the Hermitage at Mt Cook. View is fantastic, drinks are expensive and internet connection is crap.

Will post entry on Saturday. I have my verse ready.

Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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Recently, I've been troubled by what seems to me to be uncontolled sexual urges (for want of a better phrase - "lewdness" is, perhaps, more accurate) among some male shipmates.

Some have made constant reference to their own genitalia, and others to (even worse) animal genitalia, in Heaven. While I love these men as my brothers, it bothers me and I don't know how best to help them. I worry about them, and those who should be caring for them.

Paul says:

quote:
But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1 Cor 9


Now, to my mind, this is saying, that if men cannot control themselves, then they should marry. As we know, evil is as much in thought and word, as it is in deed. Therefore, the references of these men to matters lewd, is indeed as bad as if they were to actually do what they say, even if in jest.

Does Paul say that, once married, these men should be able to control themselves? Does marriage, of itself, bring control to the uncontrolable? Are these men beyond control? Are the so base, so vile, in their very spirit that even marriage has not been able to control them?

Or could their wives be the ones failing to heed the wisdom of Paul? Is it role of the wife to control the husband? Could it be that the wives, in this instance, are failing to provide the guidance required to stop these men thinking constantly of their genitals, and those of animals?

I'd like to hear the views of other shipmates, with more experience than me. Are the vile and lewd utterings of the shipmates for whom I worry so much, caused by their own weaknesses, or the weaknesses of their wives? Or is Paul not at all concerned with married men, who speak and think of animals and fornication constantly, provided they are married? That is, once wed, can one be completely without morals and control?

I'd appreciate your views and guidance.

[ 19. January 2005, 03:05: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]

Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512

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Hmph, so much for being helpful.

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Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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Be quiet, Donkey Dong.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged



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