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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Anglo-catholicism for beginners
Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by laudian:
A rood screen is necessary if the celebrant wants to comply properly with the "north side" rubric in the order for the administration of the Lord's Supper.

You're probably waiting for someone to ask, "Why?" So I shall oblige.

Why?

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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!


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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736

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Sorry to rescuitate such an old thread, but reading through it I have a couple of genuine questions.

1) Where can one find an A/C church in Liverpool.

2) Stupid question, but is the Book of Common Prayer or is there alternative Catholic liturgy? There are mentions to Prayer Books in the thread and I'm a little confused.

3) I prefer a traditional MOR Anglican service with the BCP, as one can take as much or little from it as one wants. Is sitting quietly (standing when required etc.) through a service acceptable?

Or is it like some low service in reverse, where people will do a high version of raising hands, dancing, and doing handclaps in Graham Kendrick choruses*. I dunno, that might mean crossing oneself etc. in this context. Is it bad form not to take Communion?

* Not that there is anything wrong with this, just makes me feel a little uncomfortable that's all.

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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!

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Pax Britannica
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# 1876

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St John's Tuebrook is one of the greatest A/C churches in England, and the magnificent Victorian building has recently been lavishly restored at public expense, for which DG!
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laudian
Shipmate
# 381

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eleighteen, if you are in Liverpool you should get on the train to Chester on the third sunday of every month and go to the Cathedral at 11.30. This is a Book of Common Prayer sung eucharist that should meet your requirements exactly. If I have given the wrong Sunday you will find yourself attending mattins.

Churches with any pretensions to true anglo-catholicism only use two versions of the liturgy. The first is that authorized by the Roman Catholic bishops of England and Wales, in a ghastly modern English which Cardinal Ratzinger has recently ordered be changed into something a bit more literate. The clergy who use this enjoy being told that it is illegal in the C of E, although the people who say so do not realize quite how much latitude is allowed by the rubricks of the "common" worship liturgy. You will probably find this at S Agatha's Toxteth Park, and Kendrick choruses etc fit into it quite well, although to see this you need to attend an actual Romish church.

The second exists with minor variations under names such as "interim rite", "series 1" and "order 2 alternative order". It is the 1662 Book of Common Prayer with the order in which a couple of the prayers are said changed. It ought to be in use at Tuebrook, where it will also be considered perfectly normal, indeed highly correct for you not to receive communion at the principal high mass on Sunday.

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Pax Britannica
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# 1876

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And if visting, either Liverpool or Chester, I hope you'll give us the benefit of filing a MW report! Lots of churches there yet to be visited.

Good trainspotting....

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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736

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Thankyou for your replies. I shall endevour to get up to Tuebrook some time before Christmas hopefully.. ..I am currently settling into a church I can stomach (choir, organ and things) in my locale after six months of trying places with indifferent praise bands and the like (all well and good but not my cup of tea). Chester is a bit far on Sunday although it's another cathedral to "scratch" I suppose(I take a railfan's approach to Christianity!)

A/C is something I would like to experience, the nearest I've come (I guess) is Durham Cathedral, where I occasionaly attended Matins in the days before I was saved, or rather before I knew I was saved. It all seemed pretty MOR to me, although the DICCU crowd who attended St Nick's thought it to be quite catholic, in theology if not in worship.

Why on earth would Anglicans want to use the modern RC liturgy? I've heard it is quite inferior to ASB/Common Worship, which is generally OK, though not always the style of worship that comes with it.

An MW report may follow, but I am fairly new to regular church-going so understanding everything that goes on might be a bit much...

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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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Pardon my broad church ignorance, but what is this "tapping three times at the elevation" thing that Thurible and A/D are talking about on the "Compulsion" thread?

(I'm so sorry there isn't a good Anglo-Catholic parish in my neck of the woods. You guys have far too much fun at church.)

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Thurible
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# 3206

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Sine Nomine,

At the elevation, one censes the Host/Chalice three times. In the absence of a censing at this point, I got a bit annoyed and so tapped three times on the pew to symbolise it.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Cosmo
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# 117

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'Cos at Thurible's term-time church the thurifer wanders out before the consecration of the elements (Don't ask me why, some piece of silly Sarum high-church nonsense) he doesn't get a chance to cense the Host and the Chalice at their elevations. So Thurible (slightly oddly but I appreciate the intent) is 'filling in' for the thurifer by doing it himself on the pew. I suspect that such a place as this doesn't have sanctus bells either so Thurifer is doing two things at once.

Cosmo

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Saint Osmund

Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343

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I'm glad to see this thread resurrected. One reply to Rachel_o on the first page always has me rolling.

Gosh, fancy Thurible tapping at the elevations without the aid of a thurifer. A true miracle of the Eucharist methinks. Beat that, Bob and Penny!

AD x

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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Thank-you, gentlemen.

I'm now a bit more edjicated. This sort of thing is good ammunition in my long term goal of annoying my rector. Indeed, we're having a meeting this Saturday to review "the shape of the liturgy" (doesn't that sound scary.) I will suggest that we destroy our copies of the "Wee Worship Book" and invest in a copy of "Ritual Notes".

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I will suggest that we destroy our copies of the "Wee Worship Book" and invest in a copy of "Ritual Notes".

Book burning [Yipee]

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Saint Osmund

Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Thank-you, gentlemen.

I'm now a bit more edjicated. This sort of thing is good ammunition in my long term goal of annoying my rector. Indeed, we're having a meeting this Saturday to review "the shape of the liturgy" (doesn't that sound scary.) I will suggest that we destroy our copies of the "Wee Worship Book" and invest in a copy of "Ritual Notes".

The title of Dom Gregory Dix's masterpiece, you call scary?!!! [Disappointed]

AD x

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Angelus Domini:
The title of Dom Gregory Dix's masterpiece, you call scary?!!!

No, Angelus, what's scary is that whenever we have meetings of this nature we edge closer to becoming a non-denominational Tabernacle. Can you say "Aimee Semple McPherson"?

Anyone want to buy a slightly used thurible. Only swung occasionally by a little old lady on feast days. (Sorry, Brits. That's an American "used-car" joke.)

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Saint Osmund

Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343

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Got the reference, but were you serious about the thurible. If so, PM me. xx
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Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
"the shape of the liturgy"

These sorts of conversations bode nothing but ill.

Bring Prayer Book and prepare to be extremely literalistic about the rubrics.

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Adrian1
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# 3994

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Rachel. There are many questions which can be rightly asked about Anglo-Catholocism and just as many answers which can be given! I wouldn't go down the route of trying to convince you though that is the only right way of doing things - although it is one right way amongst many. What I will say is this. It's worth learning about and gaining an appreciation of.

Although it may not seem obvious, the Church of England would not be what it is today with surpliced choirs, lighted candles and regular celebrations of the Eucharist had it not been for the Catholic Oxford Movement which began in the 19th Century.

Pertsonally I lean towards the Catholic end of the church and that's largely because I've found it to be more colourful, stimulating and interesting than the low-church/protestant end. There is truth to be found at both ends of the spectrum - and in the middle too - though.

[Wink] [Eek!] [Roll Eyes]

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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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Adrian1
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# 3994

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I'll have to use the review button more!

Rachel. There are many questions which can be rightly asked about Anglo-Catholocism and just as many answers which can be given! I wouldn't go down the route of trying to convince you though that is the only right way of doing things - although it is one right way amongst many. What I will say is this. It's worth learning about and gaining an appreciation of.

Although it may not seem obvious, the Church of England would not be what it is today with surpliced choirs, lighted candles and regular celebrations of the Eucharist had it not been for the Catholic Oxford Movement which began in the 19th Century.

Personally I lean towards the Catholic end of the church and that's largely because I've found it to be more colourful, stimulating and interesting than the low-church/protestant end. There is truth to be found at both ends of the spectrum - and in the middle too - though.

[Wink] [Eek!] [Roll Eyes]

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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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Ralegh

Bronxite
# 1436

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I myself recently attended a A-C service for the first time at S. Stephen's in Providence, Rhode Island. I was wondering if I should publish a MW report about it, but I only recently submitted one for another church so I was doubtful about submitting another before the previous is published.

Anyway, it was a fascinating experience, and although I enjoyed much of the service, I'm not sure if I'm "high church" enough to go every week. I too have many questions, but haven't had time to read through this entire thread so am afraid of being redundant.

I'll venture one, however, when the time came for the gospel to be read and the procession came out to the middle of the church, I noticed most of the congregants were crossing themselves in a very elaborate fashion, making little mini crosses on their foreheads, lips, etc. I did not see them do this on other occasions. What's the reasoning behind this?

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Mysterious Worshippers!
Are you indeed the things you seem to be,
Of earth--yet of its iron influence free
From all that stirs . . .?

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Saint Osmund

Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343

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"Lord be in my mind, and on my lips, and in my heart."

It is bodily prayer asking God to be in our minds so that we may hear and understand the Gospel we are about to hear; on our lips that we may proclaim the Gospel; and in our hearts, that we may inwardly digest, and live the Gospel.

Or as I was taught when I was a tot:

quote:
Upon my forehead, lips and breast,
thrice I make the Holy Sign;
Jesu Christ, my Saviour blest,
thoughts and words and heart be thine.

It stems from the idea that the Gospel is not text on a page, that is read from, but rather, is proclaimed, heard and lived as Christ himself through the Deacon, says these words. This is why the CE has recently changed the words of introduction from 'A reading from the Holy Gospel...' to 'Hear the Holy Gospel...'; and also why, before this change, a lot of Catholic clergy used the formula, 'A proclamation of the Holy Gospel...'.

Incidentally, the threefold crossing is something I have seen in very MOR churches as well, and certainly most Anglican chuirches I have been to, regardless of tradition, (bearing in mind I've never been to an Anglican Evangelical Eucharist). I don't think it's that much of a Catholic thing.

AD x

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Thurible
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# 3206

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You've never been to an Anglican Evangelical Eucharist, AD? You haven't lived!

I'd only been to one before I went to university, but I will admit that, at my college, I've learned a lot about charismatic worship. I'd always thought of charismatics as "arm-waving fruitcakes" but, since attending some reverent charismatic services, I've understood a lot more about one of the other wings of the C of E.

Also, a friend of mine recently went on retreat, led by a very Carthlick priest, and it turned out to be very charismatic (prostrating oneself in front of the exposed Blessed Sacrament, etc.). However, he found it very rewarding.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
You've never been to an Anglican Evangelical Eucharist, AD? You haven't lived!

Well, I'm sure he'll survive.

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Thurible
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# 3206

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So am I! But, is he saved?!?!?!? [Wink]

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Adrian1
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# 3994

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Ah, but the English Missal uses the formula "The continuation (or beginning) of the Holy Gospel according to St."

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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46

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My fairly regular experience of Evangelical Anglican Eucharists is that they are informal, normally cassock-alb and stole, but fundamentally Anglican.

I am sure that this is not the case at the extremities of conservative and charismatic, but generally I find open evangelicalism so appealing that I am considering a transfer.

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blog//twitter//
linkedin

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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At the extremes they have given up on vestments altogether. The Family services, you are lucky if you get so much as the Lord's Prayer; Eucharists have bits of the Common Worship but a lot gets left out and replaced by Words of Knowledge, extended prayer and worship times, testimonies, etc. OK if you believe in prophecies, spiritual warfare and such like, but want a little touch of Anglicanism to remind you of its origins - otherwise better to stick to Middle of the Road. There is a huge spectrum from A-C to extreme Evangelical/Charismatics: it is hard to believe they are the same denomination.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Saint Osmund

Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343

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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
You've never been to an Anglican Evangelical Eucharist, AD? You haven't lived!

I'd only been to one before I went to university, but I will admit that, at my college, I've learned a lot about charismatic worship. I'd always thought of charismatics as "arm-waving fruitcakes" but, since attending some reverent charismatic services, I've understood a lot more about one of the other wings of the C of E.

Also, a friend of mine recently went on retreat, led by a very Carthlick priest, and it turned out to be very charismatic (prostrating oneself in front of the exposed Blessed Sacrament, etc.). However, he found it very rewarding.

Thurible

I have been to a good few services in Evangelical settings, some of them Anglican; just never a Eucharist. I suppose it's because if you randomly go to a service at a Catholic parish, you're more likely to get a celebration of the Eucharist than if you randomly go to an Evangelical parish; acknowledging that this is a generalisation.

I go in for prostrating myself before the Blessed Sacrament. In addition to being my utmost expression giving myself, my all to Jesus (in worship, at least), it has the added benefit of shutting out distraction, which I am prone to.

AD x

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jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

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quote:
Originally posted by Ralegh:
I myself recently attended a A-C service for the first time at S. Stephen's in Providence, Rhode Island. I was wondering if I should publish a MW report about it, but I only recently submitted one for another church so I was doubtful about submitting another before the previous is published.

<snip>

[Dons lowly editor's green eye-shade]

Please do write something up and submit it. There's no need to wait until a previous report is published. (There are quite a number reports in the pipeline, so it takes a while before they actually get posted right now.)

[Removes green eye-shade]

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Ralegh

Bronxite
# 1436

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quote:
Originally posted by Angelus Domini.:
"Lord be in my mind, and on my lips, and in my heart."

Incidentally, the threefold crossing is something I have seen in very MOR churches as well, and certainly most Anglican chuirches I have been to, regardless of tradition, (bearing in mind I've never been to an Anglican Evangelical Eucharist). I don't think it's that much of a Catholic thing.
AD x

Thank you very much for the info, Angelus. Very helpful. The practice is not something, however, I have seen in the five or six Episcopalian churches (mostly MOR, I would think) I have attended here in the U.S. My thoughts are that it might not be as common here, or I might just need to get out more.

And Jennifer, I will submit the report. Thanks for the encouragment.

--------------------
Mysterious Worshippers!
Are you indeed the things you seem to be,
Of earth--yet of its iron influence free
From all that stirs . . .?

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Peronel

The typo slayer
# 569

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[Picks up editor's quill]

If you do decide after the fact to write a report (and please do!) then can you make sure that the church gets a MW card? Stick it through the letter box, or post it to them, or something?

[sticks quill behind ear]

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Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.

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Ralegh

Bronxite
# 1436

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My plan exactly, Peronel. It's in the mail.

--------------------
Mysterious Worshippers!
Are you indeed the things you seem to be,
Of earth--yet of its iron influence free
From all that stirs . . .?

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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quote:
My fairly regular experience of Evangelical Anglican Eucharists is that they are informal, normally cassock-alb and stole, but fundamentally Anglican.
Cassock-albs and evangelicals? Surplice and stole is what I've seen in evangelical churches.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40

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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Cassock-albs and evangelicals? Surplice and stole is what I've seen in evangelical churches.

Carys

Interesting,as at one time surplice and stole were quite common in MOTR churches.Low churches wore surplice and hood,even at the Eucharist.It's only during the last 7 years that we've had Eucharistic vestments.Before then it was alb and stole,and cope,usually

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Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Thurible
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# 3206

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At my college, which would probably term itself "open evangelical" - at least the Chaplain does -, it's surplice and scarf for the Chaplain; cassock-alb/cassock and alb and stole for the others, save for the Right Reverend Principal who's cassock-alb, stole and pectoral cross. The only person who's ever worn a chasuble in recent years was a woman, who presided when the Chaplain was on sabbatical!

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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anglicanrascal
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# 3412

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quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
If you do decide after the fact to write a report (and please do!)...

Is this allowed? Oh heck I am so disappointed.

Last year I went to a bobby-dazzler of a service here in Sydney so astounding that I wish that I had been an intrepid MWer to report on it. But I realised later that I had no idea of the exact sermon length and I couldn't remember the opening words of the service.

Oh well...

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
My fairly regular experience of Evangelical Anglican Eucharists is that they are informal, normally cassock-alb and stole, but fundamentally Anglican.
Cassock-albs and evangelicals? Surplice and stole is what I've seen in evangelical churches.

Carys

I've seen a few evangelicals wearing proper clothes recently! [Wink]

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Angloid
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# 159

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One evangelical bishop (who shall be nameless) possesses at least one chasuble of his own which he brings with him in case the tat in the parish he visits isn't up to standard.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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Since when are cassock-albs 'proper clothes'? Granted, they may be a step in the right direction...

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Cosmo
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# 117

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What is all this rubbish about proper evangelical clothes and such like? Surely the point of this thread is to guide those who have got through such questions at their conventicles and now wish to take part more fully in catholic worship.

So.

This Sunday is Passion Sunday. On this day all statues, images and crosses in church are to be veiled in purple veils. These veils are not to be removed until the Easter Vigil Mass. Thus, even if you, casual reader, still attend the Ebenezer Chapel or the Emmanuel Parish Church, you will still be able to go up to your pastor or 'worship leader' on Sunday and tell him to veil up his crucifix. It's been done for many hundreds of years so you can tell him it was a practice of the Early Church and so we must carry on doing it.

And please tell us his reaction.

Cosmo

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Fiddleback
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# 2809

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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:

This Sunday is Passion Sunday. On this day all statues, images and crosses in church are to be veiled in purple veils.

Bolloc*s are they. They are covered in veils of unbleached linen stencilled with crimson.
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Amos

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# 44

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Nonsense, boys. They are veiled in veils of black net appliqued with tiny black velvet dots.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Cosmo
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# 117

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quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:

This Sunday is Passion Sunday. On this day all statues, images and crosses in church are to be veiled in purple veils.

Bolloc*s are they. They are covered in veils of unbleached linen stencilled with crimson.
Oh yeah? I'd like to see you try.

Cosmo

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Stephen
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# 40

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So what do you do with ikons?

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Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Saint Osmund

Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343

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Glad to see someone spells it properly.
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Adrian1
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# 3994

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Cosmo, whatever statues, cricifixes etc are veiled with it should emphatically NOT be purple. Unbleached linen or any slightly off-white material is much to be preferred. [Wink]

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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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I'm with Amos on this one!!

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Sarum Sleuth
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# 162

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As they should have all been veiled a month ago on Shrove Tuesday, I can't see what all the fuss is about.

SS [Roll Eyes]

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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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Thinker
Apprentice
# 4328

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An excellent thread and would be a useful book for new ACs were the more sensible discussions to be published (and some of the funnier non sensible points too). I wonder whether Rachel has been convinced or whether all the detail of the robing procedures, et. have put her off for ever?
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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
I'm with Amos on this one!!

Me too. I want to go to Amos' church. Home of the peek-a-boo veiling. Penitential, yet smart looking.
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Chimakwa
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# 3413

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Ok, why not purple?

I ask because ours are all veiled in ancient purple crepe, apparently handed down from the days of olde; a group of us is constantly expecting them to catch fire at any moment and go up like flash paper. I could use ANY excuse to encourage them to replace the veils..

We had thought about surreptitiously using them to set the new fire at Easter vigil.. [Devil]

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athanasia (n): to induce death by means of Quicunque Vult
(Shipmate Formerly Known as Anglicub)

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