|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Eccles: Papal funeral rites-what can we expect?
|
FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I think we can even overlook the dreadful concelebration vestments!
Dreadful? Man, you haven't seen dreadful.
I actually liked them better than Ratzinger's chasuble.
FCB
--------------------
Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ger
Shipmate
# 3113
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
The music was absolutely dreadful. (Not that the Sistine Choir shall ever be competition for, let us say, Westminster Cathedral.)
I watched the BBC feed of the requiem mass rebroadcast by TV1 here in New Zealand.
I can agree in part with Newman's Own.
* I have never heard the Sistine Choir live - only in broadcast or CD; I have heard the Westminister Cathedral choir live and in recording. I agree - no competition. A Papal Chaplain of my acquaintance has heard both live and concurs - no competition.
It would be interesting though to hear the Westminster Cathedral choir deal with an open-air situation. A fair comparison requires similar circumstances!
* Yes I consider the Deacon who proclaimed the Gospel did an excellent job. Clear, measured and punctuated using appropriate inflections. Even with my rudimentary latin I could follow.
* Additionally I felt the cantor for Psalm 23, while not as good as the Deacon, did a more than adequate job.
I cannot agree with Newman's Own assessment that the music was absolutely dreadful.
Certainly if a comparison is made with the music for state occasions within the Anglican Communion at for example Washington Cathedral (Reagan's funeral), Westminster Abbey (Queen Mother's funeral, POW funeral), St Paul's Cathedral London (Churchill's funeral, the Wales wedding) and Wellington NZ's St Paul's Cathedral there was not the same panache, accuracy of performance and so on.
I suspect that yesterday in Rome there was a desire for and expectation of "congregational" participation in the music, in the mass setting - something not expected at Anglican state occasions. And from the crowd shots on the TV there did seem to be clerical and lay congregational participation. As John Harper, Director-General of the Royals School of Church Music wrote in the latest (March 2005) issue of Church Music Quarterly (page 14) "You cannot have the angels, archangels and the company of heaven singing, and then either mutter the Sanctus or leave it to the choir or music group."
I think the music at Rome was appropriate in style for congregational participation (I am not familiar enough with the repertoire to comment on the actual setting used) and seemed to match what occurs in Roman churches I have observed in the US, Australia, New Zealand (I sang in a massed choir at a rugby ground for the 1985 or was it 1986 Papal visit) and the UK. In other words it would have been familiar to Anglo-Western followers of the Roman tradition. Contrast that with the Uniat ceremonies.
There was the additional musical performance problem that the mass was sung in the open air - a notorious problem performance problem for choirs - in a liturgical setting so Cwm Rhondda at Cardiff Arms Park is not a fair comparison.
No, if music is the hand-maid of the liturgy, I cannot agree with Newman's Own that the music was dreadful.
In passing: -
* While I am not a fan of His Eminence Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, I must say that as principal celebrant his celebration was a mass well sung with dignity, clarity and catching the mood of the congregation near and far.
* Can anybody put a name to the Sistine Choir director?
* Who was the organist and what instrument was he playing?
--------------------
Elohai, n'tzor l'shoni mayro, usfosai midabayr mirmo.
V'limkal'lai nafshi sidom, v'nafshi ke-ofor lakol tih-ye.
(Shemoneh Esrei)
Posts: 93 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I think we can even overlook the dreadful concelebration vestments!
Thank you, dj! I refrained from mentioning them only because I'd already been bad enough about the music. They were rather dreadful.
I think it was Angloid who mentioned that the simplicity was very appropriate to John Paul himself - and that is quite true. The plain coffin and gospel book captured the man, as it were. I'm just one who loves the more royal aspects... but, then, he refused a coronation as well... (yes, also appropriately - it would not have suited him.)
The litany was done well - I smiled at the commentary about how, during the litany at a papal funeral, there could be mention of everyone canonised or beatified by that pontiff. Had that provision been observed, it would have run to Tuesday.
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
Welcome, Ger. I have heard the Sistine Choir live, and they would never have won any awards.
When it comes to music, if I had my way everything would be rather like an Anglican state funeral... and would not be ruined by so much congregational participation. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) But bear with me (I know you're rather new here). I am a transplanted, Franciscan peasant (with a background in music), so I suppose that, deep down, I'd like a royal funeral (though not a royal life.)
I constantly whinge on the boards about RC music being ruined by 'everyone must sing everything.' Actually, in Italy as a rule, the music at services is not very good, but there is much enthusiastic joining in - and somehow it works even better outside. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarum-mental
Apprentice
# 9300
|
Posted
At least the Eastern rite lot looked properly kitted out--and the Greeks can sing. Part of the choir problems came from the wind which distorts sound terribly, fatigue (they've been singing all week after all) and placement--I could never tell where the choir actually was (presumably under an arch somewhere which can make the physical marvel of sound one's enemy as well as one's friend). I thank Elizabeth for her comments on the plural/singular debate. Lamburn is firm on the plural in Ritual Notes (but that is his Anglo-catholic perspective vis-a-vis the communion of saints).
Posts: 35 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
aig
Shipmate
# 429
|
Posted
I wondered if the choir were inside somewhere with the organ, rather than outside (They looked inside on the BBC coverage which I watched from beginning to end (and again in the evening as Mr aig had been at work). I'm glad other people thought their intonation was dreadful - I thought something was wrong with my hearing - everytime the organ kicked in it appeared to be in a different key.
I thought the choice of music was very traditional - the people did not appear to know the mass setting and were not joining in. They might have been better having a large (Polish?) youth choir to sing the popular items and got the Sistine Choir singing the rarified stuff in tune.
Did anyone else notice the lack of black priests (or laypeople) doing anything much. This appeared to be a lost opportunity. (I won't mention the lack of women..... I wouldn't know where to start).
--------------------
That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
Did anyone else notice the lack of black priests (or laypeople) doing anything much. This appeared to be a lost opportunity. (I won't mention the lack of women..... I wouldn't know where to start).
Anglican big occasions are not noted for their ethnic or gender inclusivity either. I suspect this is yet another example of what someone on a Radio 4 interview this morning called 'soft racism' (and sexism). But it's especially disappointing from an organisation that calls itself 'the Catholic church'. The gender issue one can understand, but the other?
But then 20 of the current cardinals are Italian... how many African? 4? 10?
I was intrigued by newspaper photos this morning which suggested that the coffin being lowered into the grave was not the same one as that carried into the basilica from the mass. Anyone know of an explanation for this?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I think we can even overlook the dreadful concelebration vestments!
Thank you, dj! I refrained from mentioning them only because I'd already been bad enough about the music. They were rather dreadful.
I think it was Angloid who mentioned that the simplicity was very appropriate to John Paul himself - and that is quite true. The plain coffin and gospel book captured the man, as it were. I'm just one who loves the more royal aspects... but, then, he refused a coronation as well... (yes, also appropriately - it would not have suited him.)
The litany was done well - I smiled at the commentary about how, during the litany at a papal funeral, there could be mention of everyone canonised or beatified by that pontiff. Had that provision been observed, it would have run to Tuesday.
Having whinged about the vestments (and yes, FCB, I know that they get much, much worse than that, but a little hyperbole never hurt... many people), I must say that I thought the colour worked very well. Had everybody been kitted out in black or violet I think it would have given a dourness out of keeping with the Holy Father's joie de vivre.
I was actually asked about the colour and was able to wield my Ship knowledge into play... "aha, [sez I], according to Pope Paul VI..." I felt quite a smartypants...
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Zar:
...but Brother Roger is/was a Lutheran.
I think "was".
From reading a different board: his status is "is".
The first person receiving communion from Cardinal Ratzinger at JPII's funeral was thus a Lutheran. Of course, a special Lutheran - Prior of Taize!
Apparently the "Schönborn rule" was applied, in German:
quote:
Wer das Amen zum Hochgebet ehrlichen Herzens sprechen kann, der kann auch die Frucht des Hochgebetes, die Kommunion, ehrlichen Herzens empfangen, der kann auf das Wort des Kommunionspenders - der Leib Christi - mit einem ehrlichen und gläubigen Amen antworten. (My quick & dirty translation: "Who can say Amen to the high prayer with a honest heart, can also receive the fruit of high prayer, the communion, with a honest heart, can respond to the word of the giver of communion - the body of Christ - with a honest and faithful Amen."
Further references are made to JPII's encyclica Ecclesia de Eucharistia, 45. and 46., which apparently allows communion for single persons who honestly so desire. Apparently Fr Roger Schutz has received communion at papal mass before.
Nevertheless, I do not think that this is just "business as usual". I think a statement was being made, publically. Interesting times ahead...
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
Did anyone else notice the lack of black priests (or laypeople) doing anything much. This appeared to be a lost opportunity. (I won't mention the lack of women..... I wouldn't know where to start).
Anglican big occasions are not noted for their ethnic or gender inclusivity either. I suspect this is yet another example of what someone on a Radio 4 interview this morning called 'soft racism' (and sexism). But it's especially disappointing from an organisation that calls itself 'the Catholic church'. The gender issue one can understand, but the other?
But then 20 of the current cardinals are Italian... how many African? 4? 10?
I was intrigued by newspaper photos this morning which suggested that the coffin being lowered into the grave was not the same one as that carried into the basilica from the mass. Anyone know of an explanation for this?
It was the same one.
It had just been placed within two others since the Requiem Mass: each one having been sealed first.
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
Sarum-mental, welcome to Ship of Fools!
Please enjoy browsing the other decks and their bulletin boards, and check out, if you haven't already, the posting guidelines. We hope you have a long and pleasant voyage!
Anselmina
Ecclesiantics Host
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
Someone asked me if the red vestments were to match the flag of Poland. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
I'll admit to agreeing with the commentator, during the time when the children and young people (in national costumes) were all approaching Cardinal Ratzinger - about how much the kids must have wished it were John Paul himself they were meeting. John Paul was marvellous with children before he became ill. I was deeply impressed by how many youth were at the funeral. (Though, knowing Rome and therefore able to picture more than what was shown onscreen, I shuddered at the thought of how many people were crowded into and sleeping on the streets.)
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
Did anyone else notice the lack of black priests (or laypeople) doing anything much. This appeared to be a lost opportunity. (I won't mention the lack of women..... I wouldn't know where to start).
As to women: a woman read the first reading and three of the petitions in prayers of the faithful (i.e. 50%) were done by women. As to black priests: remember, the Pope is the bishop of Rome. I presume most of the priests distributing communion were the clergy of the city of Rome, among whom there are not very many blacks. I suppose, in the spirit of tokenism, they could have gotten Cardianl Arinze to do something visible -- but who does what in a Papal funeral is pretty much set down in advance by what your job is in the curia (e.g. Ratzinger was the principle celebrant and homilist because he is dean of the College of Cardinals).
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
it's especially disappointing from an organisation that calls itself 'the Catholic church'
Excluding the Latin and Hebrew, the mass was celebrated in something like eight different languages. How much more catholic do you want?
Also, I'm still trying to figure out what people didn't like about the vestments. Is it simply that they were sort of modern looking?
FCB
--------------------
Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
I agree with FCB - I could hardly imagine a service which was more inclusive of languages, and women certainly were not left out (not to mention that no priests read the scripture selections.)
The vestments somehow had a cheap look to them - no richness. Well, at least they were not cassock-albs with wide stoles thrown over them...
It's such fun, now and then, to pretend to be a snob.
Sarum - I forgot to mention this earlier. (Please excuse me if I am telling you the grass is green - it's just general information.) In the 'old' requiem, it was 'grant them rest,' where 'grant him peace' is more recent.
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Leaving aside the question of vestments (I thought they looked rather good - the colour certainly seemed appropriate) and the music, was this the best-attended funeral ever?
Numbers vary according to which news report you read/listen to/watch, but I gather that the population of Rome was virtually doubled - and then there's the millions of others all round the world 'joining in'. More than for the funeral of HRH Diana in 1997?
Certainly it must have been the most public Mass ever celebrated......
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
stbruno
Shipmate
# 3505
|
Posted
re the concelebration vestments-the roman ones were not at all to my liking-though those worn by the Eastern Rite Catholics were fantastic.
Also Ratzingers chasuble was identical to one worn by JP2 on a picture postcard from the vatican I received 10 years ago. (Perhaps it was the same item)
Posts: 157 | From: sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
In the 'old' requiem, it was 'grant them rest,' where 'grant him peace' is more recent.
Elizabeth
Your usually faultless memory has, for once, let you down. I have checked the editiones typicae for 1903, 1910, 1922, 1953 and 1962 and it is "dona eis requiem in all of them.
Exits singing In paradisum deducant te angeli...
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
I wondered if the choir were inside somewhere with the organ, rather than outside (They looked inside on the BBC coverage which I watched from beginning to end (and again in the evening as Mr aig had been at work). I'm glad other people thought their intonation was dreadful - I thought something was wrong with my hearing - everytime the organ kicked in it appeared to be in a different key.
On the CNN coverage you could tell they were outside from how badly their music was being blown around by the wind. And since they were quite consistent in how far off they were in pitch from the organ, I think we must put at least part of this down to the vagaries of being miked and recorded outside in a stiff wind.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Archimandrite
Shipmate
# 3997
|
Posted
Could anyone who has heard the recordings of the Sistine Chapel choir in the time of Leo XIII say whether to-day's lot are better or worse?
--------------------
"Loyal Anglican" (Warning: General Synod may differ).
Posts: 1580 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarum-mental
Apprentice
# 9300
|
Posted
Thanks for clarifying the point about the "eis" question, Trisagion.
Posts: 35 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
Thank you, Trisagion!
The trouble with my working from memory is that I too often remember what actually was done (in certain settings) than what was authorised. I was thinking more of how 'granting him peace' became more common than 'granting him rest' - I suppose the local tendencies not to refer to rest came from not wishing to appear overly Augustinian.
I know nothing of the eastern rites - and was wondering if the chanted prayers at the end were adapted from general Eastern rite practises or in some way specifically to honour a patriarch.
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
|
Posted
Newman's own asked, quote:
I know nothing of the eastern rites - and was wondering if the chanted prayers at the end were adapted from general Eastern rite practises or in some way specifically to honour a patriarch.
I'm not surprised you were wondering.... I too was wondering when the US commentators translated the final hymm "Christos anesti ek nekron" into English as "Memory Eternal".
There was an English version of the Byzantine Uniate Rite available not many years ago, translated by Bishop Joseph Riya. If you can find that one, it should answer all your questions--alas, I don't know if it's still in print.
Leetle M.
[ 10. April 2005, 12:38: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I know nothing of the eastern rites - and was wondering if the chanted prayers at the end were adapted from general Eastern rite practises or in some way specifically to honour a patriarch.
According to the Vatican Website, the prayers were taken from the Office for the Dead in the Byzantine Rite.
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
boppysbud
Shipmate
# 4588
|
Posted
The Eastern Prayer chanted at the end is the Paschal Troparion.
Christos Anesti et nekron, meaning Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and on those in the tombs bestowing life.
--------------------
this space left intentionally blank
Posts: 255 | From: High Desert, West Texas, USA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
The music was absolutely dreadful. (Not that the Sistine Choir shall ever be competition for, let us say, Westminster Cathedral.) I'm going to blush and admit something that I probably could only admit on this board. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) (Bracing myself - some of you are going to hate this...) Splendid though some aspects of the ceremonies were, wonderful though it was to see all those representatives of every faith (and all those enemies seated next to each other), and despite this being a tribute to John Paul's papacy which was incredible, I was disappointed on one count. It has been many years since the last papal funeral, and somehow I was picturing splendour. (I recited the prayer along with the crowd, sometimes lapsing into the Tridentine versions.) But it still was the type of liturgy I grew to dislike in my later Roman days - crap music where (so it seemed) everyone had to sing everything.
The deacon from Birmingham who chanted the gospel was about the best musically for the day.
The choice of music was fine - plainchant eg Lux Aeterna or chant and faux bourdon ie polyphony based on the chant. The performance of it was simply incorrect.
Plainchant is not meant to be performed in that dull plodding monotone. Anyone who has studied chant notation, especially numes, will know that the chant should be flexible and melodic in performance. Chant notation contains many subtleties of rhythym, speed and intonation (even ellision of vowels) that were completely ignored by that choir. They were not assisted by the clod-hopperish chant harmonisations perpetrated by the organist. These bore little relationship to the modes the chants were written in.
But the cardinal musical sin was that they were flat most of the time and missed some entries. I agree that performing outdoors is hard - but pitch is not affected by that. The Credo was not the only thing that was flat. It would be honours even as to whether the men or the boys were the greater offenders.
Newman's Own - I don't understand your comment about "everyone having to sing everything". So far as I could see the only bits the congregation would have been expected to sing were the responses to the Mass and to the Litany of the Saints - in other words what is required by the General Instructions on the Roman Missal. There were no hymns.
The high musical points were that Cardinal Ratzinger sang everything required by the liturgy - in the correct pitch (even during the Sanctus while the choir went flat behind him). And yes, the deacon was pretty good.
--------------------
2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
Writing in haste...
There were no hymns, but, at least from what I could see (and admittedly most of the photography focussed on the cardinals), there was joining in with the Mass parts.
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
The high musical points were that Cardinal Ratzinger sang everything required by the liturgy - in the correct pitch (even during the Sanctus while the choir went flat behind him).
I noticed the same thing. Of course, German Catholics have one of the strongest musical traditions in the Catholic Church. I used to love going to Church in Bavaria because of the enthusiastic singing, even in otherwise staid congregations.
FCB
--------------------
Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dumbledore wannabe
Shipmate
# 9310
|
Posted
Ratzinger is a very gifted pianist - especially good at Bach. He sings a "good Mass" - if only the Sistine Choir did.
My college room-mate and I once bought a record of the SC Choir. We were so excited to hear the RC version of Kings. We ran back (sad gits that we were), put the record on... listened... and decided maybe it was supposed to be on 45 rather than 33. None of the settings made it sound any better. That record didn't even make a good frisbee.
Posts: 157 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
|
Posted
I had not high expectations of the music so was not let down by that, but the only rather unfortunate thing about the whole, very beautiful service, was the cardinals vestments., especially as they flapped up over their heads in the wind. If they'd all worn nice Roman chazzies, like that nice set they've got at Westminster Cathedral, that wouldn't have happened.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
tomb
Shipmate
# 174
|
Posted
A few comments from someone who has suffered through Vatican/Papal liturgies:
The director of the Capella Sistina is a Monsignor Liberto. He was tapped for the job while the choir director of the cathedral of Naples early in JPII's reign. He's an idiot.
The organ you heard is a portativ they wheel out into the vestibule of St. Peters, then stick a microphone at it. Of course, the instrument in St. Peter's is not much better. It's 4 divisions and there is not a stop on it that doesn't suck.
Remember, these people's first experience with an organ was having martyrs piped into the circus to a jolly tune. So it's not surprising that they have a historical ambivalence to having an instrument that doesn't sound like pig flatulence hooted through a tube.
The powers that be at the Vatican have a love-hate relationship with Gregorian Chant (mostly hate. God forbid they should read Sacrosanctum Concillium). Liberto programs these nasty choral things into the middle of the Ordinary texts and tries to establish a dialogic relationship for precisely the parts of the Mass that should be in directum. Like I said, he's an idiot.
He doesn't know how to direct a choir; he doesn't know how to teach a choir. He thinks he's God's gift to Catholic music.
Subsequent Masses have been equally dire. Msr. Kolino and his Capella Julia are bad enough to make you want to take an ice pick to your ear.
It is an international disgrace that the liturgy for the Holy Father's funeral was so nasty. Moreover, I thought the Greek stuff at the Commendation was peculiar and not particularly well-done, but then, how do you judge that sort of thing? With the wind blowing around their klobuks and whapping them in the face, itsn't not surprising they couldn't keep a pitch.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
|
Posted
Not sure I'd share your view of tone and faux bourdon, tomb, but otherwise ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) and spot on.
--------------------
2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anabaptist Catholic
Shipmate
# 9284
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
.....but the only rather unfortunate thing about the whole, very beautiful service, was the cardinals vestments., especially as they flapped up over their heads in the wind. If they'd all worn nice Roman chazzies, like that nice set they've got at Westminster Cathedral, that wouldn't have happened.
Where do all the vestments come from? 160 Cardinals wearing exactly the same thing - do they keep a couple of hundred chausibles in a cupboard just in case? I remember at Cardinal Hume's funeral the concelebrants all had the same gear as well. I presume that liturgical vestments all over the world aren't identical.
I guess all the bishes have a white mitre in their briefcases - but what about the rest?
--------------------
Catholic and Reformed
Posts: 152 | From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Now nobody could call me a tat-spotter. All right, lots of people could call me a tat-spotter. But the concelebration chasubles looked very like a design by Pietrobon Bruno, which I rather like. I'm not so sure about Ratzinger's chasuble, but it looked a bit like some designs by Solivari. (Both companies make their stuff available in the UK but if I told you where I'd be advertising.)
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
I had not high expectations of the music so was not let down by that, but the only rather unfortunate thing about the whole, very beautiful service, was the cardinals vestments., especially as they flapped up over their heads in the wind. If they'd all worn nice Roman chazzies, like that nice set they've got at Westminster Cathedral, that wouldn't have happened.
That is precisely why the whole nasty concelebration business should be done away with. The Cardinals should have been sitting there in red cassock and hat (or biretta if you prefer - I would rather see the Cardinal's Hat make a comeback) and we would not have needed the great long procession of cardinals at the beginning going kissy-kissy on the altar with the wind blowing up their skirts like ecclesiastical Marilyn Munroe's.
The music was, of course, dire but we should expect nothing else. It hasn't been the same since they got rid of the castrati.
Cosmo
Posts: 2375 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Peronel
The typo slayer
# 569
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
That is precisely why the whole nasty concelebration business should be done away with.
I dunno. I think services of this size are one of the few times when concelebration has a practical purpose. It does provide a way to bulk-concecrate. The alternative would have been for the altar to be covered with dozens of vessels and then have the distributing clergy queue up right at the heart of the service to get their pot for distribution. IMHO that would have been more untidy.
--------------------
Lord, I have sinned, and mine iniquity.
Deserves this hell; yet Lord deliver me.
Posts: 2367 | From: A self-inflicted exile | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
That is precisely why the whole nasty concelebration business should be done away with.
I dunno. I think services of this size are one of the few times when concelebration has a practical purpose. It does provide a way to bulk-concecrate. The alternative would have been for the altar to be covered with dozens of vessels and then have the distributing clergy queue up right at the heart of the service to get their pot for distribution. IMHO that would have been more untidy.
I'm sure Cosmo would have preferred non-communicating High Mass.
And I'm sorry to say that my experience of Vatican music is much like Tomb's: it's awful.
That said, I still loved the liturgy and was profoundly moved by it.
FCB
--------------------
Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dumbledore wannabe
Shipmate
# 9310
|
Posted
Could anyone tell where +++Rowan was placed for the funeral? Not having seen him, I can only assume he must have been afar off on the English Bridge (Anglican relations being what they are - "May you give glory to the God for whom you shall burn")
Posts: 157 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anabaptist Catholic:
Where do all the vestments come from? 160 Cardinals wearing exactly the same thing - do they keep a couple of hundred chausibles in a cupboard just in case?
I expect they have whole reserve armies of aged and respectable poor widows eager and willing to make them up in time for the big day.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Not sure I'd share your view of tone and faux bourdon, tomb, but otherwise and spot on.
Wonderful, tomb!
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
I have been aching to ask this - but know that, if the answer is yes, it probably would have to be kept quiet lest a monumental MW report be spoilt.
Were any Ship mates in Rome for the funeral?
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
I was thinking the same thing, Newman's Own, but dared not ask. If the funeral were MW'd, I'd expect it would have been rushed to posting -- or at least one of us would have been given the raw draft to edit by now.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
