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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: The Catholic Apostolic Church
Bishops Finger
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Many thanks, PB - in the absence of a Catholic Apostolic church to MW (note the clever return to the OP!), I really shall try to investigate the Ancient Catholic Church soon......

It's a bit scary, so if I disappear from this board suddenly, you know where to look.......

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Pax Britannica
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The Ag's hymnal was "The Voice of the Bride". #16 goes:

Here is the land of pure delight;
Here dawns the day that knows no night;
Here where I walk with Him in white;
Here, here, here, rejoice!


Do you like that, Louise?

Church Studios, Crouch End, claims to be an Ag chapel.

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
Many thanks, PB - in the absence of a Catholic Apostolic church to MW (note the clever return to the OP!), I really shall try to investigate the Ancient Catholic Church soon......

It's a bit scary, so if I disappear from this board suddenly, you know where to look.......

Ian J.

Ancient Catholics are more orthodox in worship style than Romish aren't they? Or am I mistaken?

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Pax Britannica
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WE DON'T KNOW! If only someone will get up to Clapton and the pussy and doggie blessings and the clairvoyance medium meeting (Thursdays at 7:30) we'd all find out. Then we can all die content.

PB (Wishing Concorde were still around to whisk him off to see for himself).

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jlg

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I've lost track of who's what-who-which, but if this thread is now talking about Old Catholics, would you all please move the discussion to that thread?
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Pax Britannica
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No: Ancient Catholics are not Old Catholics. This is a sort of omnibus thread: the Ancient Catholic Church, the New Apostolic Church, and the Agapemonites, as well as the Catholic Apostolic Church. But not the Old Catholic Church.
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jlg

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Thanks, Pax. Just making sure.
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kevin579
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Here is a link to the website of the New Apostolic Church in the UK. From here you can find the locations of the churches. We have 29 in Elgland, one in Jersey and one on the Isle of man. One in Wales, two in Scotland and three in Ireland.


http://www.nacukie.org/

Kevin

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Bishops Finger
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Well, well.....there's a New Apostolic Church in Gillingham, not very far from me! I feel another MW report coming on......

Kevin579, I take it visitors are welcome to New Apostolic services?

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
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jlg is right - this is becoming something of an 'omnium gatherum' of a thread.

Catholic Apostolic Church - begun c.1835 and now almost vanished;

New Apostolic Church - split from the above in 1864, still very much alive and well and following much the same doctrines (but not liturgical practices);

Agapemonites/Ancient Catholic Church - nothing whatever to do with Old Catholics or the above, introduced onto this thread as something of a tangent. Investigation pending - I suggest whoever MWs it first starts a separate thread!

Apologies for any confusion.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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kevin579
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Hello Bishop

Yes, visitors are very welcome.

Kevin

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Louise
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quote:
The Ag's hymnal was "The Voice of the Bride". #16 goes:

Here is the land of pure delight;
Here dawns the day that knows no night;
Here where I walk with Him in white;
Here, here, here, rejoice!

Do you like that, Louise?

It would depend a lot on the music!

I've been rather busy of late and haven't had the leisure to go hunting in archives/second hand bookshops for things Catholic and Apostolic. Maybe when I get a bit of leave I'll remedy that.

L.

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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Bonaventura*
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Dear all

I read this thread with interest some time ago while still in Oxford. I had never heard of the catholic apostolics before. Then I came back and ate dinner with my vicar here in Oslo, he mentioned that near his childhood home there was an 'old catholic' congregation and that now their church was taken over by the Greek Orthodox. I was incredulous, I had read that the church was inhabited by some strange eschatological people who vanished as their predicitions did not come true, so these could not be the same same 'old catholics' of the utrecht union who broke away after Vatican I.

Then this evening I remembered this thread and it dawned on me: of course those were catholic apostolics in Oslo! And these were not of the German type who later elected new apostles, the were of the british kind who had built a gothic style church and did not elect new apostles.

You can see a picture and a brief description of the church here:

http://orbitz.wcities.com/en/record/162,112502/97/

--------------------
So lovers of wine drink up! The Beloved has lifted his red glass. And paradise cannot be, now, far away. -Hafëz

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Last Angel
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When I was a student in Birmingham in 1971, Douglas Hickman’s ‘Birmingham’ in the City buildings series (Studio Vista) led me to the former Catholic Apostolic (then Greek Orthodox) Church in Summer Hill Terrace. I was enthralled with this red-blooded High Victorian building by Birmingham architect J. A. Chatwin with its finely-shaped interior, and, even more, intrigued by its origins. Conversation led to Dr. Robert Hetherington, one of whose former patients had been Charles Whitehead Thonger, the last Angel (bishop) of this church. The Doctor, a fount of knowledge about Birmingham ecclesiology, expounded the history of the Catholic Apostolic Church and described services that he had attended in this great building.
He lent me a copy of Rowland Davenport’s ‘Albury Apostles’ (United Writers Press, 1970). I found Thonger’s gravestone (at St. Bartholomew’s Edgbaston) which described him simply as ‘a faithful minister of his flock’. I got to know some Cathaps who still used some rooms at the church; they declined, however, to let me attend one of their services of prayer.

Back at home in south London in the summer vacation of 1972, one weekday, church-crawling north of the Thames I tried my luck at the Maida Avenue church. A request to visit the interior met with a polite refusal and an invitation to attend their Sunday service. So back I went, having made excuses at J. L. Pearson’s kindred St. Michael’s Croydon where I was an altar boy. Arriving to find that the CA service was cancelled due to the Underdeacon’s illness, I pleaded the long distance travelled on the dregs of a student grant and was treated to a tour of the building by the caretaker. The memory of this experience is vivid after over thirty years: standing aghast at this high-minded, stony interior with its calm proportions, vaulted vistas and austere fittings. The plan and elevations of this 1894 church seemed similar to the type Pearson first used at St. Peter’s Vauxhall (1863) and developed at St. Michael’s Croydon, St. Alban’s Birmingham, St. Agnes Liverpool (not St. Augustine’s Kilburn which is very different), but with more complexity in the subsidiary spaces, including a fully aisled apsidal S. chapel. It is amazing that structural stability is achieved in these buildings without flying buttresses: the lateral thrust of the vaults seems constrained only by the thin skin of the clerestory walls which are taller than they would be in a medieval church: to what extent did 19th century advances in mathematics and physics allow architects to calculate structural stress and the properties of materials with greater exactitude?

The caretaker described how, after the death of the last CA priest, Wilfred Maynard Davson, the last deacon had consumed the Blessed Sacrament, extinguished the light before the tabernacle and roped off the sanctuary. I loved this silent church: with a total lack of 20th century interventions, it was profoundly satisfying. I have never returned to Maida Avenue, but it is good to read that the church is still looked after.

Upon leaving Birmingham and gaining a job in London University, I became involved with the University Chaplaincy which had as it place of worship the former central CA church in Gordon Square. I got to know some Cathaps who still lived in the Square: they seemed courteous, very orthodox in belief, and reserved, even secretive in talking about ‘the Lord’s work’. They said that I should not be in possession of a copy of Dr. Davson’s ‘Sermons for the third stage of the Lord’s work’ which I’d managed to acquire.

Much light is thrown upon the Catholic Apostolic Church’s theology and liturgy by Columba Flegg’s study ‘Gathered under Apostles’ (OUP, 1992). This reveals a very attractive 19th century intellectual group with highly developed ideas of ministry, sacraments and eschatology. There was a fourfold ‘vertical’ ministry of Apostles, Angels (bishops), Priests and Deacons, within which there was a fourfold ‘horizontal’ division into Apostles, Prophets, Pastors and Evangelists. Their view of the Real Presence was close to the Eastern Orthodox position and thus avoided western controversies about transubstantiation, consubstantiation and the ‘real absence’. The Eucharistic liturgy drew upon a range of sources, RC, Orthodox and Anglican. There were two entrances to the sanctuary, at the Gloria and the Introit (equivalent to the offertory in the western rite): this corresponds to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, from which the Anaphora (prayer of consecration) seems also to have been drawn. Other features, though, were unique to the Catholic Apostolic rite, for example the double epiclesis (recited after consecrating both bread and wine) and the use of incense only to symbolise intercession, during the incense anthem (another unique feature) and intercession which followed the consecration. People and objects were not censed. G. O Standring in ‘Albury and the Catholic Apostolic Church’ says that the censer was waved towards the altar, though some churches seem to have used a standing thurible (at Christ the King we used a swung thurible that survived from the CA period). Standring states that the use of incense was suspended after the death of the last Apostle (F. V. Woodhouse) in 1901 and other writers attest this, but Dr. Hetherington’s description of a ‘High Mass’ in the Birmingham church, and descriptions elsewhere of ‘full’ services at Gordon Square in the 1930s suggest that incense was still used.

The long, slow death of the Catholic Apostolic Church after 1901 is described in Seraphim Newman-Norton’s book ‘The time of silence’ (1974) and in D. Tierney’s article ‘The Catholic Apostolic Church: a study in Tory Millenarianism’ in ‘Historical Research’ LXIII, no. 152 1990, p. 289-315. The latter, as its title suggests, proposes some intriguing theories about the sociology of the Church: whatever the truth of these, an impressive body of liturgy, theology and architecture remains to evoke a colourful ‘alternative 19th century religious movement, that was home to much piety and learning.

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Bishops Finger
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Thanks, Bonaventura!

The Catholic Apostolics did try to reach all the Christian world with their message......c.f. a previous post referring to a C-A church in the USA. The picture shows a small and unassumimg building, probably typical of many C-A buildings which have long since disappeared.

As a literary aside to this thread, I recently came across a mention of the church in Maida Vale in Barbara Vine's novel 'Grasshopper'. The heroine, a young student called Clodagh, visits the church one Sunday morning in the late 1980s....

'The Irvingites at the Holy Catholic Apostolic in Maida Avenue were unwelcoming, didn't throw me out but made me cover my head with a rather nasty chiffon scarf they produced from a collection kept for that purpose.'

Sounds to me as if the author (aka Ruth Rendell) may have spoken from personal experience, even though she got the name slightly wrong!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bonaventura*
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Dear Bishop's finger and all other readers of this tread.

I just found a wonderful page which might interest you.

I found a danish page with pictures of the interior of a now demolished catholic-apostolic church in Denmark (not sure which city). The interior of the church would in all probability be much like the one in Oslo, Norway previously described.

The two churches at the bottom of the page are still in use (by the A-Cs), though sung litanies only.

http://www.meng-soerensen.dk/Nostalgi/Katolskap.htm

The other page details catholic-apostolic vestments!

Note that only picture 3,4,6,7 and 8 is of A-C vestments, the rest are lutheran and Roman-catholic wich the author uses to compare with the A-C vestments.

http://www.meng-soerensen.dk/Katap/katapkirke.htm

The author emphasises again that liturgical colours were not used to indicate season, but rank.

So for picture 6, the colours of the stoles indicate the ranks of:

elder = yellow stole
prophet = blue stole
evangelist = red stole
pastor = white stole

though at the eucharist everone wore purple or white stoles. At baptism everyone wore white, except for the evangelist who wore red.

Picture seven details how everyone below the rank of angel crossed their stoles when wearing an alb.

Sorry for the Danish folks, but I am willing to translate even more for anyone that is interested.

[ 04. August 2004, 23:09: Message edited by: Bonaventura ]

--------------------
So lovers of wine drink up! The Beloved has lifted his red glass. And paradise cannot be, now, far away. -Hafëz

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Pax Britannica
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Many thanks, Last Angel, for that long and fascinating posting that answers many questions!
Is "Gathered under Aps" you think worth acquiring?

And Seraphim Newman-Norton appears to be with us still under another ecclesiastical incarnation. 'Nuff said.

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Bishops Finger
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Once again, many thanks to Bonaventura for these fascinating links! What a shame that the little church illustrated has been demolished - a perfect gem, and probably typical of many in this country. I was also intrigued to hear that services are still being held elsewhere in Denmark, albeit the Litany only.

All we need now is an audio link to some Catholic Apostolic hymns and anthems......

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
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Oh, and my personal thanks too to Last Angel for his scholarly post - I've learnt a great deal about this sect from this thread, and Last Angel has expressed much better than I can the feelings of admiration and respect I have for them.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Last Angel
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If you go to http://www.apostolic.de you'll find a German Catholic Apostolic site with history, theological and liturgical documents and pictures of many churches.
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kevin579
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Hello

It has been some time since I have been here, a few months ago I said that I would print some of the history of the origions of the CAC, here it is:

A great number of honourable and godfearing men, especially in Scotland and England, had for a long time been absorbed in the study of the Bible. In earnest conversation concerning the fulfilment of the divine promises, accompanied by fervent prayers, they sought peace of the soul and revival of the faith. They were not so-called secretarians, and certainly not the worst members of the Anglican Church. Repeatedly they pleaded to the faithful God to grant them the necessary enlightenment and understanding of that which God really wanted to convey to them through the given promises. They also realized with increasing clarity that the return of the Lord was imminent. In this manner more and more friends and partisans, as well as those who were filled with the same desire for more light and knowledge than what they had received so far, came together. They met regularly for earnest prayer meetings. At that time however they were quite unaware of the great thoughts which the Lord had for these faithful souls who were yearning for redemption. In childlike faith they prayed for another abundant second outpouring of the Holy Ghost as at Pentecost. They were convinced that the Lord, according to His promises concerning the early and latter rain, would again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh prepared for this purpose. They also knew that God expected man to cry out for his needs. Besides, He had promised to grant the Holy Spirit to all those who brought this request before Him. These godfearing souls, who still belonged to their former Church, knew that God would hear them one day and answer them as well. They however did not anticipate in which manner this was going to take .place.
12

[material deleted due to copyright considerations]

These facts, which for some people were the cause for strife and annoyance, were accepted by others with ready cognizance and joyful hope. Many seriously minded ministers of various denominations heard the news and deeds of God with great joy. The testimony of their faith moved other hearts in turn, and in this manner the number of believers increased.

Kevin

[ 17. September 2004, 01:42: Message edited by: jlg ]

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jlg

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Hostly Mobcap ON

Since it is rather unusual for people to write posts which are the equivalent of over ten single-spaced typed pages, and which include numbered paragraph/page breaks in the middle of sentences and references to confirming something "...in the next chapter", I have to presume that this was cut and pasted from another source, which makes it a potential Commandment 7 violation. Therefore I have deleted the bulk of the material.

If you wish to provide access to large amounts of material, please provide a link to a source elsewhere.

Hostly Mobcap OFF

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Carilloneur
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A link would indeed be very useful for those of us who were not quick enough to read this material before deletion!
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kevin579
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Hello

The information was from a church publication printed in 1975, I do not know of any link or if the information is printed on the net or not, I will check though. The book was distributed free of charge to the members of the church and I did not see any copyright restrictions.

Kevin

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Father Gregory

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Be ye resurrected! An enquiry awaits in Purgatory!

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Manda
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hmm, well I started a thread in Purg about the CACs, but wanted I wanted to know about was their theology and teachings, particularly about family life, role of women etc, rather than liturgy and architecture, but that threads been closed and referred here.

I'mm guessing that's off topic here, so what's my best move now?

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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself

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jlg

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I'll flag it up with the Purg hosts and see if your thread can be re-opened with this clarification.

So the next step is to be patient. [Biased]

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jlg

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Belatedly dons Hostly Mobcap

The CAC thread in Purg is now re-opened for those wishing to discuss Manda's concerns.

This thread remains available for discussion of liturgy and worship spaces, etc.

Hostly Mobcap OFF

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Manda
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Thank ye kindly. This one was very interesting to read as well. I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great) probably from around the 1920's or maybe earlier, possibly until the 1970's - not exactly sure. My Danish ancestors were also part of the Danish bit of the CACs - which is how they met, when one of them came to UK as an au-pair, and started attending the London branch.

We have somewhere various pieces of CAC literature including a copy of 'Gathered under Apostles' - and possibly some litrgical books. I will try and remember at Christmas to have a look around at home and see what's there, there may possibly be hymnals and other things.

PS, I think my Mum has possible been inside the Gordon Sqaure church - I will ask, and see what she thought of it

[ 02. December 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: Manda ]

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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Manda:
I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great)

You're only 8 miles out [Snigger]

Gordon Square is in Bloomsbury, right next to UCL, about half way between the British Museum and Euston Station, just a stone's throw (literally) from the back of the building I'm sitting in right now.

Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Mark Wuntoo
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Bishops Finger and others

Did anyone MW a New Apostolic Church? If so, please let me know.

As I'm free this Sunday and there are a number within easy reach of me, I'd quite like to see how a number of their worship elements work together.

Blessings!

--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Manda
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Manda:
I think that the relevant part of my family attended possibly the Gordon Square church (if that's South London, around Herne Hill/Sydenham/Dulwich/Southwark type area - sorry for vagueness, my Lonodn geography's not great)

You're only 8 miles out [Snigger]

Gordon Square is in Bloomsbury, right next to UCL, about half way between the British Museum and Euston Station, just a stone's throw (literally) from the back of the building I'm sitting in right now.

Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.

lol, so which one is it likely to be? Only thought Gordon Sqaure cos the name sounded familiar, but that may be the one my Mum visited rather than where they used to go to

[ 02. December 2004, 19:13: Message edited by: Manda ]

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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself

Posts: 1137 | From: Back in little old Wiltshire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
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There's a New Apostolic Church near me, but, alas, I haven't yet found time to MW it.....

Manda, the Gordon Square church was the CAC's 'Cathedral', (it should have been even bigger but was never completed) and is at present used, I believe, by Forward in Faith for weekday services. It remains vested in the Catholic Apostolic Church, and is well worth visiting if anyone's there around lunchtime (so I gather).

Any books, especially liturgical ones/hymnals, you may happen to find will probably be most interesting.....and rare!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Chief of sinners
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# 8794

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quote:
Originally posted by Pax Britannica:
Well, let's make them an offer and we can recreate a service with BF

I'd like to attend that if it ever became possible

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If Jesus was half the revolutionary you claim, how come he is now represented by one of the most conservative, status-quo institutions on the planet?

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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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MW'ed a NAC this morning and will submit it soon.
Meanwhile some thoughts are in the Purgatory thread.
Blessings!

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Louise
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Whilst replying to Mark in Purg I came across the website of another offshoot of the Cath Aps - the Apostolic Church of Queensland which came directly off the German branch of the old CAs and which broke away from the New Apostolic Church when they tried to appoint a new chief apostle in the 1900s. It has a very interesting history page which includes the sufferings of the first Apostle to Australia who was afflicted amongst other things by Kookaburras, death adders and an infestation of wallabies. Strewth - it was a hard life as an Apostle then!

Apostolic Church of Queensland

L

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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Mark Wuntoo
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ALERT

I'm not sure if this is within the Ship's rules but a host/admin will correct it if not, please.

I'm posting it here for obvious reasons.

I am picking up the Dedler worm and can only think it is coming from the website for the New Apostolic Church - the one which includes nacukie within it's address - I go to the Romford church bit.

Hope this is helpful.

I've also posted in Purgatory.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Carilloneur
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quote:
Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.


The FinF chapel at the eastern end of Christ the King, Gordon Square is open daily and there is a daily said mass but the body of the church is kept locked.

The only opportunity to see the church is when it is opened for the very occasional FinF jamboree service and on the first Friday of every month for an organ recital between 1310 and 1400 hrs.

The interior is very fine and on a grand scale and is still fitted out with the 'paraphenalia' of the Catholic Apostolic Church.

If you attend an organ recital, you will find that the church is opened well before 1310 hrs. and there is an opportunity to wander around the building to admire the architecture and craftsmanship, before settling down to listen to the quite splendid organ.

Like the Maida Vale church, this cathedral-sized building is maintained in a moth-balled condition. It is still heated, lit, repaired, maintained and cleaned and the organ kept tuned.

It is quite an extraordinary place and well worth visiting! The next recital is on 7th January 2005.

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Divine Outlaw
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:


Its the nearest church building to where I work, though I have never seen it open.

That is truly bizarre then, because the English Chapel is open Monday to Friday 8 am to 4 pm, with the liturgy celebrated every day.

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insert amusing sig. here

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Manda
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
ALERT

I'm not sure if this is within the Ship's rules but a host/admin will correct it if not, please.

I'm posting it here for obvious reasons.

I am picking up the Dedler worm and can only think it is coming from the website for the New Apostolic Church - the one which includes nacukie within it's address - I go to the Romford church bit.

Hope this is helpful.

I've also posted in Purgatory.

I think I may be too - well I don't know what it is, but I've got several very strange, incoherant but religiousy sounding e-mails on the e-mail address I use for the ship - any advice anyone?

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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself

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Mark Wuntoo
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Further post - and this is one for admin / hosts I think, please.

I got it again after cleaning with McAfee (which actually cleans it when it arrives but I run it anyway).

This time I had not clicked on the NAC site - only on SofF

SO IS SofF SOMEHOW SENDING THIS OUT?

I'm not pointing the finger, just trying to be helpful.

On second thoughts, perhaps I'd better PM an admin / host directly - but I'll keep this here for the time being.

I do realise I'm being paranoid.

Blessings! Virus-free.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
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I'll mention it on the Hosts board and see what the residents techies have to say.
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levana
Apprentice
# 8860

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Only just picked up on this thread after a google search. I visited Maida Avenue yesterday and see that there seems to be building work going on, as there are several big containers in front of the church and various bits of construction paraphenalia around. I wondered if this was some sort of flat conversion , but in view of the comments earlier in the thread maybe this is unlikely. Nothing outside to explain what is happening. In Ware in Hertfordshire there is a former Catholic Apostolic Church (not large or architecturally distinguished ) which has been converted into flats.
I also notice the comments about Christ the King in Gordon Square, I visited there and saw that the English chapel was open but the rest of the church closed due to building work. I can recall in the 1970s visiting several times when the whole church was freely accessible to visitors. It was then and as far as I can tell still is the home of the University of London Anglican chaplaincy despite still being in CA ownership.
Certainly oneof the most impressive 19th century church interiors in London.

Are the two lots of building work connected?

I see that http://www.charitiesdirect.com/charity3/ch012743.htm suggest the church has an income of £550,000 pa, which seems quite high for an essentlally "sleeping" organisation.

Just a few random thoughts on a fascinating sect.

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Bishops Finger
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I suspect (and hope) that the building work being carried out on the Maida Avenue church is connected with maintenance of the fabric rather than conversion! I should have thought that if, God forbid, it was being turned into flats, there would be an enormous billboard outside advertising the fact.....

The building work at Gordon Square may well also be to do with maintenance.

The C-A's annual income may well be derived from interest on investments - in their heyday they were a wealthy sect, and practised tithing as a matter of course.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Colombus
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I was just passing when I came upon this website and this thread about the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I have been doing some family history research (aren't we all) and came across the following.

1845 Catholic and Apostolic Church opened at Snow Hill Wolverhampton.

My Great Great Great Aunt Mary Ann Oakley marries at Apostolic Church Wolverhampton in 1852

Her sister Caroline Louisa Oakley marries at Apostolic Church In Gordon Square in 1854.
The entry being No 1 in the Apostolic Registers

Her brother John Oakley marries at the Church in Wolverhampton in 1859

John was ordained a Deacon at the Apostolic Church in Wolverhampton in 1865 and ordained a Priest in 1868.

In 1881 he lived with his wife Elizabeth in Islington and was a Minister in the Catholic And Apostolic Church.

He died in 1908 a Clergyman of what faith I know not but presumeably Apostolic.

In 1893 the Church at Snow Hill Wolverhampton closed and a new Church opened in Bath Road Wolverhampton.This Church is still there owned by the Apostolic Church but leased to the "Christ the King " denomination.

I have been round the Church, a really beautiful building.

Early in 2004 I went to London to view the Gordon Square Church as I appear to have some family connection only to find it locked and off limits to people but an FinF service ongoing in a side chapel.
On explaining the reason for my visit to the Priest taking the service ,he kindley went upstairs and had a word with the Secretary to the Trustees Of The Apostolic Church.
He was very reluctant to allow me access to the Church until I provided proof by way of Marriage and Death Certificates that I was a direct descendant of one of their Priests at the Gordon Square Church upon which he gave my daughter and myself a wonderful guided tour of the Church but no photographs allowed.
A truly magnificent building kept in pristine condition rivalling the most elaborate Cathedrals in any city in England.
Except the rear wall of the building was finished with what appears to be ordinary house bricks,out of site unless pointed out but quite out of keeping with the ornate brickwork of the rest of the Church.
This was explained as the work to be completed upon His Second Coming.
The Secretary then took us to his office where he provided an original copy of Caroline's marriage certificate and really interested in the fact that this was the first record of a marriage at the Church in 1854.He also stated that many records and publications existed downstairs in the vaults but could not allows us access to those at that time.

Now the amazing bit !!

Upon return to Wolverhampton after a very constructive and fulfilling visit my daughter went round to see her grandfather (My ex-father in law)to tell him where we had been.He is aged 94 and revealed to the astonishment of all present, including my ex-wife ,that he ,at 94, was the oldest surviving member of the Apostolic Church in England and still receives publications from the Gordon Square Church Trustees .He was a regular attendee at the Bath Road Wolverhampton Church in his younger days,
And I never knew.

Hope this was of interest to someone and have found the above posts tremendously useful in my research about the Catholic and Apostolic Church

Thanks to all

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Bishops Finger
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Thanks, Columbus, and welcome aboard!

Sounds as though your (ex)father-in-law has some happy memories of the Catholic Apostolic Church - I hope so! Might he be persuaded to make some sort of record of them?

Like you, I found the C-A authorities distinctly cagey when I approached them many years ago regarding a possible visit to the Maida Vale church.

Once they realised that I was 'researching' purely for my own edification and had no intention of publishing anything (hmmm.... - does this thread count?), they could not have been more helpful. They still seem to eschew any kind of publicity, however sympathetic it may be towards them.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Colombus
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Thanks for the welcome Bishop's Finger,

I forgot to add that at the end of the visit to the Gordon Square Church I was given a paperback titled " Albury and The Catholic Apostolic Church " by G.L.Standring, a guide to the Personalities,Beliefs and Practices of the Community of Christians commonly called The Catholic Apostolic Church 1985
Published by G L Standring
42 Albury Park
Albury
Guildford
Surrey
GU5 9BB

A very complete and interesting volume covering most of the questions asked in previous posts.
Including description and history of the Seven Churches in London.

I would recommend a visit to the Gordon Square Church most highly and to enjoy an organ recital in those wonderful surroundings is top on my list of to do's this year
An idea of the importance of this Church can be found in the book as it was to be called The Bloomsbury Cathedral had it been finished with a most impressive 300 ft tower and spire

Hope this has been of interest

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Bishops Finger
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I also have a copy of Mr. Standring's book - I believe he wrote it as part of his study course to become a C of E Lay Reader, and it is indeed most informative.

By the way, I have been informed that there is to be a 20-minute programme called 'A Legacy of Angels' about the Catholic Apostolic Church (specifically, I understand, the church building in Edinburgh) on BBC Radio 3 at about 20.50 on Sunday 16th January. This will be broadcast during the interval in the James Macmillan concert, and participants include Fr. Columba Flegg (the historian), Colin Scott-Sutherland (a former member of the congregation) and Ann Ellis and Elizabeth Cummings (art historians - the church is famous for its murals depicting angels).

Kindly Hosts, I do hope this doesn't count as advertising - I am in no way connected with the programme, but just want to draw the attention of any interested shipmates to it!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
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Sorry - I forgot to mention that the programme will also include some Catholic Apostolic music (written especially for the Edinburgh church) which will be performed by the choir of St. Mary's Cathedral.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
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I've just listened to the programme mentioned above, and found it most interesting. The murals in the Edinburgh church sound absolutely breathtaking, and the full Sung Eucharist there must have been a most moving experience. The C-A music which accompanied the broadcast sounded beautiful as well, and served to emphasise, perhaps, what we have lost in terms of liturgy by the church's decline.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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