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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: The Catholic Apostolic Church
Fifi
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The murals in the Edinburgh church sound absolutely breathtaking

You can see them here.
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Margaret

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Oh, stupid woman. I meant to listen to last night's broadcast, and then completely forgot about it until I saw the thread this morning. It doesn't seem to be available on the BBC website, either.

Does anyone know if there are any recordings of the music available, or were there just excerpts specially recorded for the broadcast?

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dj_ordinaire
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Oh drat and fiddlesticks, I only just saw this, one day too late.

What was the C-A music like? Just settings of the Ordinary written for their use, or was there hymnody as well?

--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...

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Bishops Finger
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I understand that the music recorded for this programme is on a CD produced by the Mansfield Traquair Trust (who are responsible for conservation of the murals), so I'm writing to them to see if I can obtain one. I believe it's only 15 minutes' worth.

The choral music was used as 'background' to some of the broadcast, so it was a little difficult to work out exactly what it was! Sounded good, though - it was neither plainsong nor Anglican chant, and was a bit hard to place......

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Margaret

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Thank you, Ian - that information, and looking at the murals on the website, has made me a bit less cross with myself!
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Peripatekos
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Hi all,

I recently googled this thread about the Cath Apostolic Church and as this has been the subject of my interest for the past 20 years, I hope I may join you & give some answers to questions that have been posed, maybe also ask some fresh questions…

=====

Pax Britannica wrote (long ago):
"And what does Anson in “Bishops at Large” say of them?"

Nothing. The CAC is not mentioned in this book, because its entirely different origins. It has no connection to the Wild Bishops (episcopi vagantes).

I also saw some remarks concerning the New Apostolic Church. This church is the result of a split-off from the Hamburg CAC congregation from the mother body. A from the English CAC Apostles excommunicated Prophet (Heinrich Geyer) called a new (German) Apostle (oct 1862). The Hamburg CAC congregation accepted this new Apostle, the English Apostles did not. The English Apostles declared what happened in Hamburg as "the Devil's work" and excommunicated all those who followed the new German Apostle. This break-away group eventually called itself "New Apostolic Church".

Major differences between the two groups:
CAC: high church liturgy. NAC: protestant liturgy.
CAC: oecumenical doctrine. NAC: sectarian, exclusivist doctrine.

The CAC Liturgy book and the Hymn book are hard to find. I managed to buy a copy of "Hymns for the use of the Churches" some time ago, but it was the first copy I have seen for sale on the internet in 10 years!!!

=====

Several persons have mentioned the CAC church at Maida Avenue. As far as I know it is the only CAC church building in the UK that is still owned by the CAC and in use as such. Why that is the case, I don't know. All other churches have been closed after the death of the last Priest or Deacon, but Paddington seems to be the exception. The last surviving CAC Priest (worldwide, I think) resided in Paddington. I think I have seen his name mentioned, Wilfred Maynard Davson. Maybe he has given instructions to the Subdeacons or Layhelps to keep the church open?

Bishops Finger listed the CAC churches in London:
Gordon Square; Maida Vale; Mare Street, Hackney (became Greek Orthodox many years ago); New Road, Camberwell (now Greek Orthodox); Elyston Street, Chelsea (bombed in WW2); Abbey Orchard Street, Westminster (became Roman Catholic - I remember it from about 30 years ago, but I believe it has been demolished); Duncan Street, Islington (present status not known!).

The Westminster Church has been closed and demolished long ago (1960s, I think). The Islington church is gone as well. The Southwark church (Camberwell New Road) was bombed and damaged in WW II. After the war it was repaired and partially rebuilt. The building as it stands now has only 2/3 of the length it had before the war.

Beside these 7 congregations, there were also so-called "Horn churches" (not wholly independent congregations, were "under" another congregation). I know of one in Wood Green (I think the building has been demolished) and there was at least one other Horn church. These two are probably the "Gordon House Highgate" and the "Gloucester Road Islington" churches aumbry mentioned in one of his posts.

An incredibly rich collection of pictures of CAC church buildings (exterior and interior) and ministers can be found in the following (bi-lingual: German/English) book:
http://home.t-online.de/home/03641442918-0001/schroeter.htm

The author is Mr. J.A. Schroeter, who several years earlier wrote a book (in German) on the Hamburg schism and the role of the Prophet Geyer (NAC split-off from CAC, see above):
http://www.tectum-verlag.de/8724text.htm

(This is no advertising, I am neither connected to Mr. Schroeter nor get a percentage of every sold book)

=====

Pax Britannica wrote:
"My 1905 Harmsworth Encyclopaedia reports "50,000 communicants, mostly in Britain".

The number of members in Germany far outnumbered those in Britain. Around 1900 there were over 250 congregations in the "tribe" (CAC Apostles divided Christianity in twelve "tribes") of Northern Germany alone. The Berlin CAC Central Church (Wilmsstrasse) was the only CAC church worldwide that was "fully developed", i.e. had sufficient servants to be able to completely perform the Liturgy in its ideal form. See the post of leo:
"Re- the idea of having a service, I doubt whether you could muster enough personnel. According to Peter Anson's Fashions in Church Furnishings (Faith press 1960) pp. 107-114, you need 64 ministers. The celebrant is known as an angel His vestments are always white (except for black on Good Friday). he is assisted by 6 elders, 6 prophets, 6 evangelists, 6 pastors and 7 deacons, each with their own acolytes. Also under-deacons, deaconnesses and lay assistants in various coloured cassocks and buskins (slippers)".

I can provide some numbers of congregations from a 1900 CAC church address book, if that's of interest to you.

=====

Bonaventure wrote about the Catholic Apostolics in Oslo. In its heydays (late 19th/beginning 20th century) the CAC had 10 congregations in Norway, of which Oslo, Drammen and Bergen had Angels. The other congregations (e.g. Stavanger, Larvik) were smaller, had Priests or Deacons only.

Denmark has been a much more "fruitful" country, with at least 50 CAC congregations around the turn of the century (19th/20th).

=====

Columbus, in case you read this: could you PLEASE send me a private message?

=====

Aumbrey wrote:
"There was a Bath church at the east end of the Paragon in the Vineyards built in the norman style in 1840 designed by Manners of Bath. He was a fashionable local architect who also designed St Michaels Parish Church which is at the meeting of Walcot and Broad Streets. This must have been one of their earliest. I cannot quite place the C-A church from memory - does the building still exist?"

I was in Bath in 2000 and checked out the address 20, Vineyards. Yes, the church still stands. Taking a picture of the front is hardly possible, but you can photograph the back easier. It was a Kingdom Hall of the Jehovah's Witnesses: not exactly the kind of Christianity the Apostles would have approved of…

=====

For those who want to Mystery Worship a CAC service (rather, a Litany): in Germany and Holland are still CAC congregations that hold services regularly.

=====

Thanks for your patience :-)

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Bishops Finger
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Thanks, Peripatekos, for the links (and welcome aboard the Ship!).

I was interested to learn that C-A congregations still meet for the Litany in Holland and Germany - a congregation was meeting each week for such a service at the Maida Vale Church in 1987, but does so no longer, it appears.

I think others have mentioned on this thread that the Gordon Square Church is also still owned by the C-A authorities (their administrative offices are there), but the church itself (or at least the English Chapel) is used regularly by the Forward-in-Faith movement of the C of E.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bonaventura*
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Thank Peripatekos, and welcome to the ship.

An angel would have looked like this in full vestments. Are any of you familiar with what the tat of an apostle would have been?

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So lovers of wine drink up! The Beloved has lifted his red glass. And paradise cannot be, now, far away. -Hafëz

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stranding
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Hallo all

As a brand new sailor (as of today, still finding my way around, hoping I won't get seasick) I have been fascinated by this long thread. I was born (1942) & brought up as a CAC member, and together with my family, regularly attended Camberwell Church in SE London. (NB Manda: this is the one you meant... [Smile] )

I would like to try and respond to a just a (random) few of the points that have jumped out from the many detailed posts – too many to digest in one quick read.

I can confirm that when Camberwell Church closed, members were directed to attend their local CoE. We as a family were communally confirmed into our local CoE, though we had all taken Holy Communion regularly since babyhood within the CAC.

We all had our own copies of the liturgy and my own very battered one is on my shelves here. Slipped between the pages is the special little bookmark we made for it, which consists of four coloured ribbons, each being one of the four liturgical colours, sewn together at one end with a small hanging gold cross. These strong colours with their various symbolic meanings have been important for me ever since.

My memories of the church and services are very strong. On Sundays we attended Morning Service, which was followed immediately by Holy Eucharist – everyone attended both as a matter of course. We all paid our tithe – put into the correct box as we entered the church. In the children's case, this was the carefully worked out 10% of our meagre pocket money. Once a month in the afternoon there was Sunday School, held in the bare and dusty upstairs room at the street end of the church – the centre part had been bombed in WW2, as has been mentioned, and at that time, was open and untidy, though I think it's now a pleasant garden area. We S/S children were given "tea" before Evening Service, which came straight afterwards.

Sorry, this next bit's OT: ... oh, the memory of those post Sunday School teas in that room ... sandwiches with the Enormous Treat of "real" shop-bought jam – unheard of in our home-cooked-food family, and at the time when Britain was just emerging from wartime rationing. Just that thin red scrape allocated to each sandwich was absolutely enough to make me look forward to S/S!)

On Wednesdays, my father went to the evening Litany, though I can't remember ever going to that. On Saturdays we often went to clean the church brass – the beautiful lectern eagle, the communion rail, and lots of bits and pieces around the altar and in the pulpit. I found that very enjoyable, being able to get close up to and handle the objects we were very familiar with from a distance.

All the women wore a hat in church as a matter of course, and I still feel uncomfortable now entering a church without one. We were taught that a woman's hair was her “crowning glory” and as such would be a distraction to others and must be covered when in God's house.

We heard words of prophecy often, but though these were fairly common, they were always treated as very special occasions, and those in the congregation who knew shorthand would carefully try and record what was said.

Though we didn't appreciate it then, the standard of the choir and hymn singing was very good. We sang with great and enjoyable gusto – when we moved to the CoE, the apologetic whisperings of the hymns came as rather a shock. I still miss the CAC singing.

We were taught very carefully and diligently, by my father and by our appointed family deacon who visited regularly to make sure this was going on in proper fashion. What we were taught is for another time

Just one other point for now: the recent Radio 3 Edinburgh programme seemed excellent, though I was washing my hair at the time ... and definitely need to listen again properly to the recording we made. Columba gave a very fair and balanced brief introduction. I have a copy of his "Gathered Under Apostles" which is CERTAINLY well worth reading for those interested.

Stranding

--------------------
Split plies, not hairs

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Friar
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I've enjoyed this thread enough to join SoF and contribute my own halfpennyworth or three...

1. My reminiscences of a Cath. Ap. friend.
2. (One of?) their church(es?) in Melbourne.
3. Their Liturgy (1848 edition).

1. A deceased friend of mine, one Derek Stone, grew up in Melbourne (Australia) in the Cath. Ap. Church and was quite a character in his own right - after the dying out of his local CA clergy, he became Anglican (as did many Cath. Ap. Churchmen), but then Orthodox, was excommunicated by the Gk Bp of Australia for 'attempting to introduce the Charismatic Renewal into Orthodoxy' (!), and undeterred got permission from the Catholic Abp of Hobart (Tasmania - where he lived latterly) to receive H. Communion (he was still technically Orthodox but deprived of their sacraments, while his wife was Catholic and so too the 10 or so offspring), and had done so even daily for 20 or 30 years before unexpectedly dropping dead of a heart attack a few years ago. Requiescat in pace, Derek!

Woe betide anyone who got him onto a favourite topic, such as tithing (big CAC influence here), the desirability of hordes of "deacons, subdeacons, acolytes, lectors and exorcists" (ditto - imagine the scene at St Joseph's, Hobart, when he prayed for this extempore during Mass one weekday!), Christian unity (ditto), Eastern Rites (ditto), Charismatic gifts (ditto), Exorcism and the activity of demons(ditto), Marian apparitions (NOT CAC! - perhaps from his devout wife Bridget?), etc. ad infinitum. That man could out-talk nearly anyone. From what I've read in the thread, many of his concerns are not uncharacteristic of those formerly members of the CAC.

He grew up in a pretty tough part of Melbourne during the Depression, in Fitzroy, within walking distance of the CAC church. He loved the liturgy (of whichever Church he attended; I recall him holding forth about a Coptic Liturgy he joined in - "Take off your shoes!" the deacon had shouted as he approached for Communion) and had clearly been brought up according to a very exacting moral and doctrinal standard, which came I guess from the CAC he knew as a boy.

(With his own large family he kept a similarly high standard according to his lights, inculcating swathes of doctrine and with patriarchal gravitas summoning the wife and children to family prayers at 7 am daily with a bell, by which the neighbour set his watch. Without batting an eye he told me how at one time Bridget stayed away from family prayers, upon which his comment was "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft," quoting 1 Sam 15:23 verbatim and clearly meaning it!)

2. Derek told me to take a look at his old church, just north of the Melbourne CBD in Queensbury St, Carlton - it's now used by the Romanian Orthodox, but it's still owned by the local trustees of the CAC, all very old I'm told, unsurprisingly. Alas, I haven't seen inside, nor, until finding this thread, did I know how much I have for ever missed out on by not asking Derek a few years ago to describe the church services of his youth.

Derek told me that on a return visit to Melbourne he found that the unsuspecting trustees of the Carlton CAC church had let a group called the Metropolitan Church use the premises - he explained to the trustees that they might not perhaps agree with certain tenets of that body, to which he drew their attention, and thereupon they decided to lease the church building to the Romanians instead. From the outside, which is all I've ever seen of it, it seems the Romanians have redecorated, with two outdoor icons of SS Peter and Paul affixed to the streetfront of the building, which is a small unpretentious structure.

3. Just a few days ago, for AUS$3 (!) I bought a very fine copy of "The Liturgy and Other Divine Offices of The Church." Montreal: Lovell and Gibson. No date, but from a rubric on p. xxvii explaining that the psalms for Sat 1 Jan 1848 are Pss 22ff, it must have been published about that time. I think that the bookshop didn't realize how rare this item must be, but then again 19th C. Canadian imprints of defunct liturgies probably aren't major sources of income for them. Supply would be low, but so too demand.

I must say from the text - alas, the rubrics are so sparse little can be told of the ceremonial - it seems a very well arranged liturgy, and startlingly so for 1842 for men coming out of contemporary Anglicanism and Presbyterianism. The only bizarre aspect of it is the position of the Pater noster - after the Sanctus, and before the Consecration! Perhaps (cf. Lutheran agendae) in reference to the petition for "our daily bread?" The theology expressed seems Puseyite to me, if he had dared to write his own rite, or rather, like the efforts of the Non-Jurors, or better, of those other 18th C. writers who composed their own rites a la the Apostolic Constitutions, although they had Arian not Pentecostalist leanings! All very much "Primitive Church" High Church nostalgia and reconstruction, in Cranmerian style.

The book seems to be in transition toward a more liturgically-knowledgeable position from a less liturgically-minded one. (For instance, the Collects vary seasonally, not daily.) The Kalendar is, I think, perhaps based on Wesley's adaptation of the BCP: there are Advent Sundays, and Xmas Eve and Day, and the Circumcision, but no Epiphany (?), and 7 Sundays 'after Xmas'. Next come Septua-, Sexa- and Quinquagesima, but no Lent, instead "Quadragesima Sunday" and Sundays after Quad. until that next before Easter, then Good Fri. - with a very fulsome Missa Praesanctificata and communion from the reserved species - and Easter Eve and Day, Sundays after Easter, Ascension Day, Pentecost Eve and Day - the former very interesting, with long penitential devotions expressing the Cath. Ap. view of the quenching of the Spirit in the early centuries by sinful Christians and his revivifying the Church only in the 19th C. - and the usual Sundays after Pent. Only two other feasts: Candlemas (sans candelis) and All Saints (with heavy emphasis on the multifarious ranks of the Cath. Ap. ministry). The volume is very winning and adaptable for private devotions...

All in all I must thank previous contributors for this engrossing thread, and would welcome questions if only I can help answer them.

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Bishops Finger
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Thanks to stranding and Friar for your fascinating contributions to this thread (which has been far longer and fuller than I anticipated when I started it!).

Friar, your edition of the Liturgy is about forty years older than mine, and does indeed represent an evolving scheme of things. Interestingly, though, the seasonal rather than weekly variation of the Collects became the norm.

I do hope that our Sainted Hosts will retain this thread when the pending changes to the boards take place....... [Overused]

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Blueflash
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I thought I had better pinch myself to see if I still exist - being "CAC" is something that only runs in families, and families do not so often "die out". My family can trace back its CAC ancestry 5 generations so far, and the same is true for other families that are familiar from my childhood (we were also based at Camberwell!)
I confirm that the Maida Vale church still holds weekly prayer meetings each Sunday, and members come from quite a wide area to attend.
For most of its history, the hierachical priestly structure has had a very strong control on the members. Incidently my feeling is that it is this control structure that enabled the charismatic element to be maintained in such an astonishing way also. When the priests were no longer around the instruction was for each to "go it alone", it was up to each to "follow their own path."
As far as I am concerned, it is up to me to interpret CAC teaching for myself (just like biblical teaching really), including those concerning "the time of silence"
I would like to think that my beliefs and spiritual needs could be respected as much as any other CAC - consequently I would like to see open access to the beautiful Albury church and Gordon Square and to the records currently held under trust by a very small minority.
They are too good to be lost.
Sorry about this rant.
Do the rules allow this kind of post or not? [Frown]

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jlg

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The rules are applied with a certain amount of discretion. If you cross the line, you'll get a warning.

As long as you're contributing to the thread topic, a certain amount of ranting/critiquing is OK. Just don't completely de-rail the discussion. A full-blown hissy-fit rant would belong in Hell. A debate about whether a particular group is doing their job properly would go to Purgatory.

jlg, MW Host

[ 30. January 2005, 14:23: Message edited by: jlg ]

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Peripatekos:

Aumbrey wrote:
"There was a Bath church at the east end of the Paragon in the Vineyards built in the norman style in 1840 designed by Manners of Bath. He was a fashionable local architect who also designed St Michaels Parish Church which is at the meeting of Walcot and Broad Streets. This must have been one of their earliest. I cannot quite place the C-A church from memory - does the building still exist?"

Oooohh - we passed that place on the Bath Shipmeet and we had a discussion about it! We thought it may have been Seventh Day Adventist before becoming a JW Hall and now it is some kind of storage place for UVPC windows me thinks!

-103

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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

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Manda
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Blueflash, the families may not die out, but if they do not have any contact with it, how will it be a continuing tradition once the last of those who had any contact are no longer around??? Or what if they choose not to?


Just wondering

I'll try and read the Columba Fleck book at some point.

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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself

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Blueflash
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quote:
Blueflash, the families may not die out, but if they do not have any contact with it, how will it be a continuing tradition once the last of those who had any contact are no longer around??? Or what if they choose not to?
If they choose not to, that's fine, no problem. I hope we live in a more enlightened age where its easier for kids to choose their own way. [Big Grin]
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Manda
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And if they haven't had any contact with it and don't know anything about it?? I'm just wondering how that squares with it not dying out?


[tangent]
though of course some of the 'kids' value their own nice Anglican tradition [/tangent]

--------------------
'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself

Posts: 1137 | From: Back in little old Wiltshire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peripatekos
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Thanks Stranding, Friar, Blueflash, for the VERY interesting flash-backs you've been providing! I have been fascinated by the CAC ever since I came to know about her history (20 years ago) and started collecting books by CA authors.

Much of what you told about the CA services is still exactly so maintained in Germany and the Netherlands. I have visited a couple of CA prayer meetings, and the first thing that struck me as odd were the hats and scarfs the women/girls wore...

Stranding: "We heard words of prophecy often, but though these were fairly common, they were always treated as very special occasions, and those in the congregation who knew shorthand would carefully try and record what was said."

What years are you talking about? And were there specially reserved "spots" in the meetings where these words were allowed to be uttered?
Wasn't this recording in shorthand discouraged? Since there were no offices anymore that had the capacity of checking these utterances?

Blueflash: "I confirm that the Maida Vale church still holds weekly prayer meetings each Sunday, and members come from quite a wide area to attend"

Do you know why the Maida Vale church is still open, holding meetings and has not followed the example of all other congregations, e.g. selling/donating the church to another denomination?

My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies. I do have a first edition of 1843 (well, not really the first, because I think there was a preliminary edition in 1842, which was only used in Albury - does someone know for sure?). The most recent English Liturgy I have is from the 1920's.
German CA Liturgies are still (!) being reprinted. I have a German Liturgy from 1967 and another one which is even more recent, the 1980s I think.

(small off-topic) I don't have a Canadian Liturgy, though, so if you are thinking of selling your copy, Friar, I assure you that I can give you a nice profit [Smile]
And if one of you has other books related to the CAC and don't know what to do with them... You can always contact me via PM (/small off-topic)

Peripatekos

[ 02. February 2005, 11:14: Message edited by: Peripatekos ]

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stranding
Ship's humble ropemaker
# 9019

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Manda wrote:
quote:
the families may not die out, but if they do not have any contact with it, how will it be a continuing tradition once the last of those who had any contact are no longer around???
That's a difficult one to answer briefly. For faithful CAC members, the fact that the last of the ordained clergy have now died and most of the churches closed does not mean that the Church has "failed". The primary hopes and prayers of the faithful members are (still are, now) that Christ's return will take place soon, but at the time of His own choice – the exact time is not for us to know or try and predict exactly. Reading Columba Flegg's book will help your understanding of this "time of silence".

Bishop’s Finger wrote earlier:
quote:
(CAC members) think of the period since the death of the last Apostle as a 'Time of Silence', during which they are waiting and watching for Our Lord's return in His own time and way, reticence having been enjoined on them …
Yes, this is exactly the case.

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Split plies, not hairs

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stranding
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Peripatekos wrote:
quote:
... words of prophecy ...
What years are you talking about?

As far as I know, from when services started, long before I was born and baptised in 1942, until the church services ceased at Camberwell. There is a bit of uncertainty about when that was – I was away at college during that time, perhaps in 1961 or 1963.

quote:
And were there specially reserved "spots" in the meetings where these words were allowed to be uttered?
Yes. I am not completely sure about "rules" (if there were any about this) but I think it was usually sometime between the consecration before communion and the administration. I think I can remember it once during communion itself, but not at all certain on that.

quote:
Wasn't this recording in shorthand discouraged?
I don't really know. I can remember the rather electric atmosphere during prophecy and watching the shorthand being taken by the usual familiar member of the choir. There would be no comments about it during the service but afterwards there would be a quiet buzz of exchanges between members about the translation and meaning. My mathematical father was scholarly and knew a fair bit of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic and there were several more who would compare notes together by talking or in correspondence.

Prophecy was accepted very seriously, but I think I'm right in saying it was considered as an "added extra" to the important point of the gathering which was of course worship. I was most impressed by what we were told – that prophecy was the Word of the Holy Spirit, spoken through a member of the congregation. But I was also equally interested in the mysterious shorthand squiggles in the notebook, when we could get a look at it.

quote:
Do you know why the Maida Vale church is still open, holding meetings and has not followed the example of all other congregations, e.g. selling/donating the church to another denomination?

Blueflash may know more but my understanding is that it came about because of a difference of interpretation of the directives.

quote:
My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies...
That's very interesting. I have searched through my own Liturgy and can find no dates at all except "1879" added at the end of the preface to the Book of Psalms. It was printed at the Chiswick Press in London, and all (ie the offices and various tables, the psalms and the hymns) bound into one volume.

Incidentally, under the main psalms title, there is the subtitle "Pointed in accordance with the twelve ancient tones". The writer of the preface makes it clear that the pointing in this edition has been decided after "many valuable suggestions" were submitted on "specimen sheets". It ends with:
"... the work is not issued by authority, but is to be regarded as a private endeavour to meet a widely-felt want"
And: "...that ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God" (original italics).

I presume "pointing" may be very familiar to liturgical and musical scholars, but as an ordinary young church member, I found it odd and fascinating to use, and it certainly made singing psalms communally easier. In other words, the congregation (and Camberwell's harmonium player) all knew when to go up and down together confidently – no need for anyone to mumble though uncertainly.

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Split plies, not hairs

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stranding
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I would like to pick up several quotes from earlier:

Bishop’s Finger wrote:

quote:
I'm not surprised to hear Father Gregory's remarks about C-As being gently directed towards the C of E etc. as their own clergy departed. It chimes in with their view of themselves as not being in 'opposition', so to speak, to other churches.
And:
quote:
…learnt a great deal about this sect.
And Pax Britannica wrote:
quote:
While perhaps not being heretical they were (are?) nonetheless regarded as schismatic by the Established Church.
From the outside, the CAC may have appeared, and appear still (to some) to be a “sect” and be referred to as such. But those within the Church were taught emphatically that that it was not a "breaking away". Rather the opposite – that the Church was a coming together, or restoration of the full Apostolic Church, whose members were gathered from a very wide variety of Christian branches. Hence the carefully chosen name: Catholic (as in universal) and Apostolic (of Apostles). In the same way, sections of the CAC Liturgy were chosen to be included from a wide variety of forms of Christian worship.

Bishop’s Finger also wrote earlier:
quote:
The C-A Liturgy seems to leave very little room for 'extemporare' prayer.
I don’t remember any occasion when an 'extemporare' prayer was used. There are prayers for a great many occasions within my own Liturgy.

A few more general memories:

As well as our weekly tithe, we also gave an offering, which went into another box marked "Offerings" at the entrance. We were not allowed to put anything but silver into this one (and I presume gold would have been OK too). Bronze or nickel was not considered good enough for God, so no (old) pennies or threepenny bits though I don't have any memories about paper money, since I never had any of that then. I don't know if this was a generally accepted thing within the church or if just our family rule. There was also (if I remember right) another box marked "For the poor". We didn't ever have any sort of offering plate or bag that was passed round the congregation during a hymn, or left to be filled at the end of the service.

Near the offertory boxes there was also the small stone stoup with blessed water for signing a forehead cross on entering. We never genuflected but were taught always to face the altar and bow our heads when passing in front of it.

NB: To repeat what has already been mentioned earlier in this thread: for those interested, Gordon Square Church has monthly lunchtime concerts on the last Friday in the month at 1.10pm. There is one tomorrow 4th February and the next on 4th March. Open to all comers. There are notices requesting no applause and no photography allowed.

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Split plies, not hairs

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Friar
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quote:
Originally posted by Peripatekos:

My CA book collection, by-the-way, contains 16 English Liturgies. I do have a first edition of 1843 (well, not really the first, because I think there was a preliminary edition in 1842, which was only used in Albury - does someone know for sure?). The most recent English Liturgy I have is from the 1920's.

(small off-topic) I don't have a Canadian Liturgy, though, so if you are thinking of selling your copy, Friar, I assure you that I can give you a nice profit [Smile]

Peripatekos:

Alas, I won't be offering my Canadian imprint for sale, as it's unlikely I would ever find another one, but would be most happy to answer any queries about it and its contents... I would very much like to know in what respect it differs from the later versions of the Liturgy of the CAC.

A few days ago, I made a trip across Melbourne by tram to visit the Joint Theology Library at Ormond College, where I was able to find Columba Flegg's book. I don't have borrowing rights there, so I read as much as I could in an hour or so, and mean to go back there to read more and do some photocopying. From what I could tell from his book, the main changes made to the Liturgy since my edition was printed were the addition of:

(1) "Proposition" [sic] of the sacramental species upon the altar at Morning & Evening Prayer, i.e. the consecrated elements, veiled, were taken out of the tabernacle - the CAC's reserved both species, which is I think otherwise unparalleled (the Orthodox reserve the intincted host, but not the two species separately), tho' I did once see it done at a very odd Mass - and this act was accompanied by a prayer sotto voce (dictated via prophecy, as was the act itself, apparently!), which expressed the belief that the prayers next offered were thereby made in and through Christ glorified in heaven and yet present sub speciebus Eucharisticis. This united the long prayers at MP & EP to the post-consecration intercessions for the living and dead at the Eucharistic Liturgy. (Something similar had already been done each Good Friday at the Missa praesanctificatorum prior to this act being introduiced, according to my copy of the CAC liturgy.) Apparently the Eucharistic Liturgy was only offered on Sundays and the few feasts kept by the CAC, and the daily offices of MP & EP were thus united to the sacrificial oblation of the Eucharist by this expedient.

(2) Thereupon the "Incense Anthem" was sung, and incense offered. (The elements were not incensed, rather incense was burnt in standing 'braziers' - I don't suppose you would call such items thuribles.)

(3) After the Consecration at the Eucharistic Liturgy, incense was offered in the same manner.

However... according to Flegg's book, once the last CAC Apostle died in 1901, the splendour of the liturgy was curtailed, and in particular the offices of MP and EP were no longer celebrated (the shorter and simpler offices of the Forenoon and Afternoon Services remained in use, and on Sundays these approximated in form to MP and EP, without "Proposition" etc.) and incense was no longer used at all. If my interpretation of Flegg is correct, no one now alive would ever have seen the above rituals carried out, as they haven't occurred since 1901.

Friar.

[edited to fix quote code]

[ 04. February 2005, 15:19: Message edited by: jlg ]

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Carilloneur
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Just to clarify Stranding's fascinating post - the organ recitals at the Gordon Square church are actually on the first Friday of each month.
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stranding
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quote:
Just to clarify Stranding's fascinating post - the organ recitals at the Gordon Square church are actually on the first Friday of each month.
Many thanks Carrilloneur for picking up that error – I obviously don't know my alphas from my omegas. Sorry for confusion.

--------------------
Split plies, not hairs

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daronmedway
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An amazingly interesting thread! But did you know that Irving and the CAC are also the proto-Zionist fore-runners of the Plymouth Brethren and other Dispensational Christian movements? Here is a link to an article about Edward Irving's famous treatise called Babylon and Infidelity Foredoomed.

The CAC apparenetly emerged from the Albury Prophetic Conference hosted by Henry Drummond a woman called Lady Powerscourt at Albury House.

Irving, apparently, was convined that the Gentile Church was totally apostate and Drummond was convinced that the CAC would effect a return to the true Jewish origins of the Christian Church (hence the tabernacle/temple symbolism in their liturgical worship). The CAC was formed in the belief that the Catholic Church was apostate and anti-semitic.

According to author Stephen Sizer, 'On the first day of Advent in 1826, Henry Drummond (1786-1860), a city banker, politician, and High Sheriff of Surrey (and the first Apostle in the CAC!!), opened his home at Albury Park to a select group of some twenty invited guests to form a Prophetic Parliament and discuss matters concerning the immediate fulfilment of prophecy. The CAC was formed at this meeting along with a group called, 'The School of the Prophets'.

The plot thickens...

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daronmedway
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Whoops! That should read '...Drummond and a woman...'. [Hot and Hormonal]
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Blueflash
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To try and give my understanding of some of the points raise, although I have only been researching it properly for five years:

The religious environment that Irving, Drummond, Derby and Powerscourt were all a part of around 1830ish was getting into "signs of the times", prophesy, and the second coming. At an early stage people like Irving were mixing with Derby. In time the views of individuals separated out. Irving and Drummond held the Albury Conferences very year for 3 years in Surrey.
Derby was involved with the Powerscourt Conferences in Ireland which eventually led to the Brethren, quite separate from the Irvingites, as they were then called.
The Albury Conferences were quite large, hardworking affairs, there are lists of the people who attended.

Re Maida Vale. I think the last priest at Maida Vale (Paddington) decided to carry on when others had been told to close down. For me its an interesting example of the tensions existing in the "body" between authority and schism, that characterise its history, right from the beginning. Once the final apostle died, who was to decide who has the authority?
It needs to be understood that to them God was inseparable from authority, and the principle of democracy was seen as a smokescreen behind which "Satan" can work.

Maida Vale is also set up now under a separate charity to Gordon Square.

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Blueflash
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Another point, each of the 12 apostles was given a "tribe" for their jurisdiction, a geographical area over which they ruled (mostly in Europe). It was considered that each country or area has its own spiritual characteristics and these were to be celebrated. Most of the history I have seen has been about the English Church, under the Apostle Cardale the lawyer.
The danish CAC seems to have quite different characteristics and they dont believe in secrecy.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueflash:

Darby was involved with the Powerscourt Conferences in Ireland which eventually led to the Brethren, quite separate from the Irvingites, as they were then called.

Yes, but I am aware, however, that the Brethren subsequently distanced themselves from associations with the CAC as it developed its liturgy and ecclesiology. This article by Brethren minister William Kelly, (which you've no doubt read during your extensive research), desribes the ordination of CAC Apostles in detail and by implication suggests that Brethrenism and the CAC were aware of each other, shared similar eschatological views, but differed greatly in terms of their ecclesiology.
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daronmedway
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I'm sorry. This article by William Kelly.
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Blueflash
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Thank you M.T. Succinctly put, and a very comprehensive reference.
I don't pretend to any proper theological research, I'm just a magpie searching for what I need.

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Siegfried
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Geneva Gown ON
This thread is veering off into deeper theological and historical discussions that would be better taken up in Purgatory. Please take them there.
Geneva Gown OFF

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

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Blueflash
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I was taken round inside Albury Church about 2-3 years ago, and found it all most beautiful. More of the size of a "parish church" than the cavernous interior of Gordon Square, and more friendly. Everything is of the highest quality construction and well cared for and kept exactly as original. There are beautiful colourful windows and intricate painted patterns on the wall.
At the rear of the church there is a confessional, symbolising that they considered Roman Catholics as part of the one Church. However the penitent has space to sit (or whatever) inside, and the confessor sits outside.
To one side of the Church and ajoining is the Chapter House where the Apostles had their deliberations and a "scribe" recorded them.
On the other side are modest but elegant rooms with desks and chairs, where the visitor's book is kept.
The only thing lacking is a guide to the history, furniture and rich symbolism.

[Angel]

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Bishops Finger
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A while ago now, I mentioned on this thread that a short programme on Radio 3 (on 16 January) would look at some of the history of the former Catholic Apostolic Church in Edinburgh, famous for its Arts and Crafts murals.

A short CD featuring music written for the Church is now available from the Friends of the Mansfield Traquair Centre, as the Church is now known. Details are on their website:

http://www.mansfieldtraquair.org.uk/index.htm

Click on the links to 'A Legacy of Angels'. A link is also provided to the BBC website if you want to listen to the broadcast itself - the music is used only as a background to this.

The CD consists of 5 choral pieces (Communion Anthem, Agnus Dei, Incense Anthem, Great Introit and Sanctus - these latter two are absolutely beautiful) and a short organ piece (Allegretto - perhaps a postlude?). It gives a brief and tantalising taste of what, to me, sounds like a rather different type of liturgical music, and perhaps shows how much the Christian world may have lost with the decline of this body.......

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Margaret

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I ordered a copy of the CD a little while ago and it arrived yesterday. I agree with Ian, it's beautiful stuff and well worth listening to, quite apart from its historical interest.

It's started me wondering if it's possible to track down any of the music in published form - it seems a terrible shame to leave most of it in complete obscurity.

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Bishops Finger
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Indeed yes - the CD, as I said, provides a tantalising glimpse into the Catholic Apostolic liturgy, and I for one would love to hear a setting of the Gloria in Excelsis, the Anthem between Epistle and Gospel, and also the Te Deum (which concluded the full order for the Holy Eucharist on the Lord's Day). I shall make inquiries.......

For those interested, the choral items on the CD were located within the Eucharist as follows:

Communion Anthem - after the reception of communion and before the post-Communion prayers

Agnus Dei and Sanctus (sung in English) - in the usual places!

Incense Anthem - 'at the time of offering the incense' (following the Prayer of Oblation after Consecration and before the intercessions and communion)

Great Introit - after the Offertory 'when the holy vessels with the bread and wine are being placed upon the altar, and the incense lighted....'

The rousing 'Gloria Patri' sung at the end of the Great Introit was also sung at the end of the service, after the Te Deum and before the Benediction. Whilst listening to it (and singing along), I found myself involuntarily raising my hands to heaven........well, this was one of the first 'charismatic' churches!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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stranding
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Bishop's Finger wrote:
quote:
... CD featuring music written for the Church is now available from the Friends of the Mansfield Traquair Centre...
Thank you for that tip – I'll pass it around to those who will be interested. The taster music on the programme was very good. I'll certainly buy at least one for myself.

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Split plies, not hairs

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Bishops Finger
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Just one word of warning - the CD is only 16 minutes long......but still worth having and listening to!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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stranding
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Thanks for the warning, but no matter - quality of content and precious rarity value will win over length. It's a reasonably priced CD, after all, and I do have a rather strong interest!

[ 27. February 2005, 14:07: Message edited by: stranding ]

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Split plies, not hairs

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Last Angel
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I've just revisited this thread after a long absence. There's a lot more interesting material here which I'll read later at more leisure.
I remember the Gordon Square church (Christ the King) well: I was sacristan 1973-6 whilst working in London Uni. I visited the Edinburgh church last summer and was thrilled with the murals, and bought the CD: I've tried unsuccessfully to trace other music by these composers (Paul della Torre, Peter Dickson)
Was also interested to read that the Wolverhampton church survives: I've explored that town's Victorian churches and thought it had gone: will go and have a look.

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Foaming Draught
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The Apostolic Church of Queensland derives from the CAC. Read its History.

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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free


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Peripatekos
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To those who are interested:

I saw that Sarum Bookshop, Salisbury, UK has a Cath Ap Liturgy for sale: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=434157896

And there's also a German Cath Ap Liturgy currently on auction on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32689&item=6949184831&rd=1

I'm afraid that for both items you need to have a fat and healthy purse...

Peripatekos

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Bishops Finger
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Over 5.5 million Romanian leu!

£100.00 sterling or $196.40 US dollars!

That's for the Liturgy in English - when I looked, the German version (of 1890) stood at 40.50 Euros, which isn't quite so horrendous.

These prices probably reflect the rarity of the books concerned......

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Peripatekos
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Blueflash wrote about his/her (?) recollection of getting taken around in the Cath Ap Church in Albury.

quote:
Originally posted by Blueflash:
I was taken round inside Albury Church about 2-3 years ago, and found it all most beautiful. More of the size of a "parish church" than the cavernous interior of Gordon Square, and more friendly. Everything is of the highest quality construction and well cared for and kept exactly as original. There are beautiful colourful windows and intricate painted patterns on the wall.
(...) To one side of the Church and ajoining is the Chapter House where the Apostles had their deliberations and a "scribe" recorded them.
On the other side are modest but elegant rooms with desks and chairs, where the visitor's book is kept.
The only thing lacking is a guide to the history, furniture and rich symbolism.

I am amazed: is it actually possible to visit the church? I always thought that getting inside Fort Knox would be much easier...
Did you make any pictures from the inside of the church? (If so: Please don't miss the hidden question... [Roll Eyes] )

Who is caretaker of the church? Did you see the library? Any idea whether the original liturgical dresses are still kept?

Yes, a book about the Albury church's history, furniture and symbolism is loooong overdue!

Mr. J.M. Lickfold has written a book "Notes on the architectural features and furniture" (contains many photos) about the Cath Ap Church in Gordon Sq, in 1935. Should someone reading this have a spare copy... (another hidden question [Smile] )

Peripatekos

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Blueflash
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Referring to Peripatekos' questions:

There will always be someone who can get into any Fort Knox if they wear the right badges, carry the right key and know the password. Otherwise what is it there for? [Ultra confused] [Ultra confused] [Ultra confused]

The caretaker is Mrs Ford, next door. [Overused]

I was requested not to photograph inside (ladies are obviously requested to wear headcoverings also) so I only have photos of outside. [Overused]

There was probably a library in the study, but I would think that most of the books and vestments would be at Gordon Square.

But would you hide your pearl of great price inside or outside a stronghold? [Paranoid]

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