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Source: (consider it) Thread: Heaven: The Flirting Thread Redux
Craigmaddie
c/o The Pickwick Club
# 8367

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quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
But I think my fate as a single woman was sealed when I was (and this is the absolute truth) chatted up by a tone-deaf, drunken midget.

Oh, my gosh - why did nobody tell me that the women of today are looking for men with perfect pitch! I have visions of my next date pulling out a Stylophone and testing me on my major and minor scales. Gulp!

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Via Veritas Vita

Posts: 1093 | From: Scotchland, Europeshire | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
quote:
The mention of Googling people makes me suspect that in the near future someone will come along and create a wesbite in the style of Amazon or eBay where you can check out the ratings for a potential partner...
There's always this site. I seem to remember Off Centre View put his pic on there recently and some of us rated him... [Killing me]
My daughter put my pic on one of those rating sites. She never would share the results with me, though; either it was too horrible for words, or I beat her, one or the other!

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Captain Caveman
Shipmate
# 3980

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Originally posted by Scots lass:
quote:
What I need is advice on how to read subtle signals! From guys who I know already, rather than guys I meet in a pub, where generally it's pretty obvious.
See now, we guys are very well practised at masking our feelings. We also don't do subtlety very well. If a guy likes you, either he will be extremely obvious about it, or he will hide it so well it will be impossible to tell. The other problem is that what might be a "sign" from one guy, from another guy will just be "being friendly". So unless you get your friend to pass notes to his friend at play time, there's no way to tell. And even that might not work.

--------------------
"Take this shirt
Polyester white trash made in nowhere
Take this shirt and make it clean" - U2

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Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
# 3571

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guys huh! [Roll Eyes] How do they think women are going to find out if they like them then?!
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Captain Caveman
Shipmate
# 3980

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telepathy

--------------------
"Take this shirt
Polyester white trash made in nowhere
Take this shirt and make it clean" - U2

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Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
# 3571

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darn it seems I missed that one

(I always wanted to be like counsellor troy (thats the right one isnt it?) that knew peoples emotions and all that )

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Codepoet

Best Bear On Board
# 5964

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It is easy to tell which guys fancy you - it is the ones that pull your hair on the playground.

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It's more important to be kind than to be right.

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Clint Boggis
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# 633

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quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
guys huh! [Roll Eyes] How do they think women are going to find out if they like them then?!

What does it matter? We're all going to die dateless and alone anyway. The human race will die out.

Doomed! We're doomed, I tell you.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
It is easy to tell which guys fancy you - it is the ones that pull your hair on the playground.

Ok since I am a big flop at picking up boy signals I got one for you--

I am having a pleasant,somewhat intimate conversation with a man, in a rather businesslike setting. The convesation lulls. Eye contact is made. Gentleman gives me long, hard stare, gulps, then goes on a brief stroppy tirade about the choice of soda I made.

Is that kind of like the hair-pulling thing?

[ 13. March 2005, 23:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
It is easy to tell which guys fancy you - it is the ones that pull your hair on the playground.

Ok since I am a big flop at picking up boy signals I got one for you--

I am having a pleasant,somewhat intimate conversation with a man, in a rather businesslike setting. The convesation lulls. Eye contact is made. Gentleman gives me long, hard stare, gulps, then goes on a brief stroppy tirade about the choice of soda I made.

Is that kind of like the hair-pulling thing?

Exactly the same! Make your move and quickly!
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Ah, this was a couple years ago. Beginning to learn, though.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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Flirting? Hmmm... 1) Enjoy what you are doing, be comfortable in your surroundings, and then focus on the interesting person as a bonus. I find I'm most successful when I'm clearly in full swing with whatever may be going on, and then direct much (but not all) of my attention to the special person. And you must mean it, i.e., if the person doesn't react when attention is turned to them, switch back and enjoy the party (or whatever).

2) Hook, line, and sinker - bait helps. [Biased] First goal must be a "hook", find something that will lead to a second meeting. A shared interest is good, but prosaic stuff like asking for help on something works well too. Then feed them "line": find opportunities for more time together, drop them an email, ask if they want to check out this weekend market together, etc. Finally, you need a "sinker" - do not let it stay on the merely "friendly" level for long. At some stage you need to risk a bit more. I find non-verbal signals way better than talking to get more serious. Finally, "bait" does help. My personal "bait" is (a) very "sensitive" hands (inherited from my mum). If I can get hold of her hands, I can work some magic. And if I can give a proper massage, well, ... [Big Grin] (b) I've read a lot of (classic) Japanes love poetry and I'm decent (so I'm told) at writing my own in that style. Works well. Another killer skill, which I do not have but which my brother uses with amazing results, is cooking. Find and hone your own "bait" skill.

3) Are you ready? Are you realistic? My success at flirting and dating improved dramatically once I actually meant it. Before that, I tended to lust a lot after girls/women which - upon reasonable reflection - simply were bad "targets". Like those who had a boyfriend/partner. Or women who were clearly aiming at a different sort of guy (as evidenced by whom they were running after!). If you find yourself "unlucky" most of the time, consider whether that's because you subconsciously are choosing "low percentage" chances. Further, reflect all your "expectations" back onto yourself. If you are looking for an intelligent woman, with good sense of humor and a fantastic body - well, are you intelligent, good humored and have a fantastic body? Really? There's no particular reason why your partner should be less choosy than you. So - cut them at least as much slack as you need yourself.

4) Don't go for the princess, go for the maid. If you are aiming for everybody's darling, you will be competing with - everybody. Which presumably is great fun and perhaps satisfying if you "win", but you wouldn't be reading this if you were Casanova, would you? [Razz] There's lots and lots of great people out there who are not in the top ten of the universal popularity contest. Finding someone special is not equivalent to finding someone who appears special to everybody. There's a tendency at parties for most people to cluster around a few "chosen ones". That tunnel vision is detrimental. Not all that glitters is gold.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:[...]
There's a tendency at parties for most people to cluster around a few "chosen ones"...

I know huh! It drives me to distraction. Sometimes, I'll just find a quiet place in the garden, so they'll quit bugging me.
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
Dammit, I want to be loved for ME, not for my ability to 'do the flirting right'.

This is the whole problem in a nutshell, and illustrates the misconsception about flirting.

For you to be loved as "YOU," *you* have to signal your emotionally availability to potentially interested parties. Who would want to spend five seconds talking with a woman or a man who sat rigidly, made little or no eye contact, answered questions in monosyllables, and generally acted like they had a stick up their butts? Not me, and, I bet, not you.

Every single facet of flirting has this as its foundation: "You are interesting to me."

Flirting is not about you. Flirting is about the other person. "I don't want to flirt, I want to be loved for me" tells me you have the concept reversed. Flirting is *you* making the other person feel charmed, interesting, valuable, important in some way.

Flirting has some techniques, yes, but you can learn them in five minutes, the same amount of time it would take me to teach you basic table manners. The techniques are of minor importance, nowhere near as vital as the intent and your heart. You flirt to make the other person feel good and, in so doing, you will find suddenly you have made yourself charming and intersting to that other person, because as human beings, we're automatically drawn to some extent to people who're drawn to us.

Now, a caveat; the draw the other feels for you may not be enough for them to consider pursuing you romantically or even liking you, but if you never try, you'll never know, and no one bats .1000.*

-------
*Baseball expression, means no one is perfect.

--------------------
"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Well, I am with Vikki. I think I am pretty good at letting people they are interesting and entertaining to me (if they indeed are) and if that isn't enough, I don't want to downshift to less authentic techniques.
In fact, once I start wondering what it is I am "supposed" to do, that is when I choke and act like I have a stick up my ass-- so maybe the "f*** it, here I am" approach has some merit.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Having said that, I think you were a bit mean about the tone deaf midget. Kick him my way, I love short men. Long as he doesn't sing at me.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:
quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
Dammit, I want to be loved for ME, not for my ability to 'do the flirting right'.

This is the whole problem in a nutshell, and illustrates the misconsception about flirting... Every single facet of flirting has this as its foundation: "You are interesting to me."

Flirting is not about you. Flirting is about the other person...

Except for this one facet, for me, anyway -- I get an immense charge out of a conversation or a relationship or working on a project with someone -- if I feel, when I come away from it, that I have made them feel valuable/liked/wanted, whatever.

Does it skew the whole thing if I enjoy -- love -- chase -- crave, even -- the rush that I get out of providing someone else a rush?

--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

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Oh, to hell with it. I think you should just go for a good old aussie attempt:

"G'day, Sheila. How about a root?"

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aj

firewire technophobe
# 1383

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quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Oh, to hell with it. I think you should just go for a good old aussie attempt:

"G'day, Sheila. How about a root?"

I've had mixed success with with that one. Make sure you iron your VB (or Fosters if you've no taste whatsoever) t-shirt before trying it though.
[Smile]
Needless to say I'm not keen on sarsaparilla anymore.
[Razz]

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if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?

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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548

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Nothing wrong with being tone-deaf as long as your opening gambit isn't, "I DID DAMN GOOD, DINNIIII? <grab for table and miss>

However flirty a Yorkshirewoman is, there's no way she's going to say you sang well if she's musical and you didn't.

I think there may be a certain misconsception here akin to the thread where people spent two pages trying to cheer my up about my non-existent depression about the past. [Biased]

FACTS.
1) I know HOW to flirt. Just for me personally the 'harder stuff' comes under my personal category of game-playing. This is because
2) I have been led on (yes, seen AND responded) so many times by men who later casually mentioned their Significant Others (one a LOT later, after a couple of dates) that yes, maybe I am slightly damaged, I'll grant you. however it has left me with
3) a horror of flirting and being taken up on it by an attached guy. Of COURSE this leads to
4) ambiguous signals BUT IMHO this is better than
5) encouraging some guy to cheat on someone, or
6) inadvertenly leading on some guy 'to make him feel good' and then buggering off and leaving someone wondering what the hell went wrong.

OK I'll admit to a certain jaded slant to that - but heck, I have seen affairs at work, been offered affairs on several occasions, know hardly any single guys, seen a lot of people REALLY SERIOUSLY HURT and moreover, now know through experience that even someone who tells you he's single might not be.

Do you know what? I'm going to stick my neck out here to pump a little adrenalin into this thread and ask you how you draw the line between flirting and prick-teasing when you have no idea whether you are with someone emotionally vulnerable or not.

Perhaps it's being in my forties - Im sure it wasnt like this at 20. Possibly I know an inordinate number of guys I care too much about to lead them on. I know I had this discussion with one on here and he agreed with what I've just said but, interestingly, wasn't certain he wanted to post on here.

So let's up the ante.

Convince me this is loving Christian behaviour. ` [Razz]

--------------------
"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

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Esmeralda

Ship's token UK Mennonite
# 582

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I can't do that, because I'm not sure it is. There's flirting and flirting... I think there's a kind of mild flirting that is entirely harmless, where you both know it's just a heightened, lighthearted form of conversation. Maybe that's the kind of flirting every girl needs to do with her Dad in her teens (and every boy with his Mum?).

Then there's 'over the line' flirting, which gives the message that there's a real possibility of a romantic relationship. That's the dangerous sort, if one partner is not serious or not available. And it's so easy for one sort to slide over into the other...

Since honesty is a Christian virtue, maybe it's best either to be very sure where you draw the line, or not to flirt at all. I know my story of the 'accidental email romance' above was put in a humorous manner, but actually it caused me a lot of pain (though apparently it caused the man concerned, who had just separated from his second wife, to feel wanted and valuable).

My problem has always been that deep down, I don't believe anyone I like would like me. So I've always flirted in the hope of getting even a tiny response. And sometimes got more than I bargained for.

--------------------
I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.

http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/

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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548

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Aw, Esmerelda. I bet loads of people can empathise with that one. I certainly can.

Just as men get confused by the difference between what women SAy they want in a man (New Man, Sensitive) and the ones they assume all women end up with (Neanderthal Serial Cheats), I find it very difficult when guys say they don't go for 'Game Players'. But I suspect there's a fair mix of fear, lack of self-esteem and extreme generalisation going on here!

--------------------
"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548

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Er, that's ON THE THREAD, not (just) in my head!!lol

--------------------
"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

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Craigmaddie
c/o The Pickwick Club
# 8367

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quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
Just as men get confused by the difference between what women SAy they want in a man (New Man, Sensitive) and the ones they assume all women end up with (Neanderthal Serial Cheats), I find it very difficult when guys say they don't go for 'Game Players'. But I suspect there's a fair mix of fear, lack of self-esteem and extreme generalisation going on here!

I think, like Esmerelda mentions, that, because so many people do feel deep down that they're not good enough, any kind of interest from the opposite sex is welcome as it provides a cheap substitute for genuinely feeling good about yourself. Certainly that's the case with me.

RE: Women being attracted to Neanderthals. Last November a female friend of mine met a guy via the internet whom she quite liked. The guy was what you would call "rough and ready". About two months into their - now sexual - relationship she and I were speaking about relationships in general and she said that I should try to be less "nice" and a bit more of a "bastard" when it comes to women. As an example of this she told me that when she had teased her new boyfriend about why he still had his profile on the dating website he had told her to "fuck off" (albeit in an apparently "playful" way). This bit of behaviour she commended to me as a desirable feature in a man.

4 months on she became frustrated when she felt that she was beginning to fall in love him and he still refused to remove his profile from the website. She was also frustrated by his "emotional unavailablity". After ignoring her for two - for her very painful - weeks he finally dumped her last week with the implication that she had been "suffocating" him.

Whilst trying not to comment on him negatively as there might be the chance that they could still get back together again, I did make the comment that the quality that she liked at the beginning of the relationship was precisely the quality that she didn't like 4 months into the relationship.

Looking back at the string of - sometimes abusive - relationships that she has had I think part of her difficulty is that she doesn't seem to be able to distinguish between strength in a man and his lack of respect for her.

I hope it doesn't take her too many more of such relationships before she starts seeking out men who are actually good for her and before she becomes completely cynical about men and relationships...

--------------------
Via Veritas Vita

Posts: 1093 | From: Scotchland, Europeshire | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gracious rebel

Rainbow warrior
# 3523

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quote:
Originally posted by Esmeralda:
I can't do that, because I'm not sure it is. There's flirting and flirting... I think there's a kind of mild flirting that is entirely harmless, where you both know it's just a heightened, lighthearted form of conversation. Maybe that's the kind of flirting every girl needs to do with her Dad in her teens (and every boy with his Mum?).

Then there's 'over the line' flirting, which gives the message that there's a real possibility of a romantic relationship. That's the dangerous sort, if one partner is not serious or not available. And it's so easy for one sort to slide over into the other...


The trouble is, that I'm not sure that everyone can tell the difference, or would have the same definitions of what is just mild fun and what is 'real' flirting.

I think the 'mild fun' stuff is OK with people you already know well, but even that could be potentially dangerous with people you've only recently met.

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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website

Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675

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The purpose of flirting is not to "pull", it's merely to give the other person a "heads up" that you're interested.

Once you've done that, you're on your own. No technique can help you. Either you're personality will be attractive to the person you are persuing or it won't.

The aim of flirting is to provide a quick "filter" to find out who may be receptive and respond positively if you make a move on them and ask them on a date.


Either they will respond positively..in which case just stop with the flirting and ask them out..or they will respond negatively, in which case, try a nother couple of gentle probes, and then give up. If they reject more than 3 subtle advances, they are either inept at reading social signals or else they are just not interested in you.

So, how to give them the "heads up"? Well, subtlety is the key. Invading their personal space in a gentle way is the classic indicator. If they are happy to let you do so, they are interested, if not, you're out of luck, move on.

A gentle touch on the elbow with eye contact and smile as you say "hello" is probably enough to get a reliable positive or negative response.

However, in the 21st century, there is a new even more reliable way to flirt and get that all important red or green light to ask the person out.

FLIRT TEXTING.

Here is a proven method to determine, with minimum embarrassment, whether or not someone is interested in you. It's all in how you "sign off" your texts, and in how they respond.

You start by signing texts just with your name. Then, try putting a "x" after your name, if they respond likewise when they text back..add an extra kiss on the next text. If their reply has either two or three kisses on it, then sign your text "Love <name> xx " And see if they respond in kind.

other step ups include signing off with "Love ya", and finally "Love you," (plus the obligatory x x x)

It's important to note that the key to whether you are onto a winner here is whether your target responds with a higher level of intensity of affection or the same, or lower.

Some people, women in particular, always put "xx" on their texts...so, when you "step up" the intensity, you have to look for any "value added" over and above what you demonstrated in your texts in the replies.

Consider these two examples:

EMMA AND PAUL.

Paul sends an SMS to Emma..adding "xx" to his name, as a first flirting step:
"Hi, gr8 2 c u the other day. hopefully next week c ya again? Paul xx"

Emma replies:
"Yeah, woz gud. Might be busy next week, we'll c! love ya Em x x x x"

Paul, encouraged by the intensity of response, increases his own intensity. (were he an expert in "reading" text flirts, he would immediately spot that Emma's response is TOO positive to indicate genuine flirtation. She's just naturally very "Friendly" in her text writing style)

"Oh well, txt bk & let me know if you're free k? Love you 2! Paul x x x x x [Biased] "

(This is an extremely aggressive gambit...the "wink" is the highest possible level of text flirtation, especially when combined with the extra kiss...it's the biggest possible head's up.)

Emma, spots this, and, as she is not interested in Paul replies with the following:

"Yeah, I will do, anywayz better get on with my Essay for uni! Em x"

Ouch. Stinging. Here, Emma clearly declines the gambit, giving Paul nothing back but a sympathy "x". Paul mis-read her inital "positive" signs as being flirtacious, when in fact that was just Emma's normal texting manner.

Let us consider a second scenario:

JACK AND JILL

Jill's first text is purely functional:

"Hi Jack, was gr8 2 c everyone last night. Just wondered, did u find a scarf? Think I left it in the pub. Jill."

Jack decideds to flirt a little by adding some affection to his sign off, a couple of kisses and a "love" make the point:

"Hey, Jill. yeah, woz gud, and gr8 2 c u after so long!! No, sorry, but I think Alice may have done? I'll ask her 4 u. Love Jack. xx"

Jill's response, although less intense than Jack's intial gambit, is in fact a step in the right direction from her previous texts...she adds two kisses:

"aww...would you? Thanks! Maybe c u tomorrow then. Jill xx"

Jack is probably onto a winner here, provided he doesn't push to far too fast.

And that's it, all there is to flirting in the 21st century in a nutshell. Comments?

[ 14. March 2005, 12:04: Message edited by: 3M Matt ]

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3M Matt.

Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
EnglishRose
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# 4808

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quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:

And that's it, all there is to flirting in the 21st century in a nutshell. Comments?

[Help]

Flirt texting hadn't even occurred to me until I read Matt's post. Now there's something else for me to worry about. [Roll Eyes]

Going back to proper flirting, what do Shipmates think about flirting with someone when the flirter hasn't quite made up their mind whether they're interested in the flirtee? From time to time I've met really lovely guys at parties etc and have been tempted to flirt with them whilst I'm getting to know them. However, I always end up avoiding flirting just in case I decide that I'm not interested as I'd hate to lead anyone on. Am I being silly? (OK, more silly than usual......)

Posts: 544 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vikki Pollard
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# 5548

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Oh, flirt texting is ancient! The current trend seems to be that guys wind up the girls with more and more signals, then take it back down again (at least this is the complaint of daughters and friends!).

quote:
The purpose of flirting is not to "pull", it's merely to give the other person a "heads up" that you're interested.
Ah - but not according to the earlier posts on this thread. See, this is where I part company with those. If I assume it's all harmless fun, but end up playing with someone who thinks the above (and I agree with it, BTW) then you're in trouble.

I don't think there's anything wrong with flirting as you check someone out - in principle. What's wrong with it from MY point of view is that lots of guys indulge in that to check me out whilst forgetting the important things. Like their wives and children. [Biased] Otherwise, though, I'd say flirting at a party and having a light, fun chat with someone where you know you're both checking each other out - nothing wrong at all with that. IMHO

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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Lady of the Lake
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Ken Writez, your post is a gem. [Big Grin]
It's confusing all this stuff about flirting being about oneself and therefore inherently manipulative. It reminds me of the view that we shouldn't make an effort re: presentation and appearance as this would mean someone was not attracted to the 'inner me'. I'm afraid I find that view a little frumpish and unhelpful, even though I can see where it's coming from.

Re: text flirting strikes me as a bit creepy - internet sites are enough of a handful. I recently had a rather dodgy (Christian) man send me a row of 'x's telling me how he wanted us to be lovers, etc. Maybe the row was just to dispel ANY feminine apprehension that 'x' is just an innocent signature for greeting, but I don't use it with people I've never met. [Biased]

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If I had a coat, I would get it.

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Vikki Pollard
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# 5548

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Frumpish, MOI?! [Eek!]

lol

Well I'm DEFINITELY helpful anyway...

[Disappointed]

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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by KenWritez:

Now, a caveat; the draw the other feels for you may not be enough for them to consider pursuing you romantically or even liking you, but if you never try, you'll never know, and no one bats .1000.*

-------
*Baseball expression, means no one is perfect.

KenWritez, that is probably as clear and concise exposition as is needed but....

Pardon my ignorance but shouldn't "perfect" batting be 1.000, not .1000? Heck, some pitchers can hit one-in-ten!

Mind you, I'd be grateful to have a flirting average of .1000. Others too, by the look of things.

--

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Lady of the Lake
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Vikki, I am not saying you are frumpish. Sorry.
But I do think that the view that flirting is inherently self-centred and manipulative is. Of course it can be so depending on the intentions of the flirt.

Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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quote:
Craigmaddie:
she said that I should try to be less "nice" and a bit more of a "bastard" when it comes to women.

This is the equivalent of an alcoholic telling you how wonderfully interesting you'd be if you drank more. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Pardon my ignorance but shouldn't "perfect" batting be 1.000, not .1000? Heck, some pitchers can hit one-in-ten!

Erk. [Hot and Hormonal] Yes, it should be 1.000. My bad. Chalk it up to posting after driving all day.

Vikki, I hope I didn't come across as jumping up and down on you, I was responding to the "I've gotta be me" thing.

Something else about flirting I've learned from a related field, from when I was a salesman. When someone is talking about something they love, something they enjoy, they have a much larger emotional investment in the conversation. If you find someone you want to flirt with, ask them about their hobbies or about what is important to them, and then allow them time and discussion for those things. When a pause comes up, here's the magic phrase: "Tell me more."

(If it helps, pretend you're an actor on stage and your role is that of a flirt who's trying to find out about the objay du flirt.)

I'll copy 3M's format here:

You: "1drful! Y R u here @ party?"
Objay du flirt: "Why are you talking like a text message?"
You: "Sorry, wrong post. I meant to ask, 'How do you spend your time when you're not counting fish brains?'"
OduF: "Ohh, I like occasionally messing about with my cyclotron and creating new elements, but most of the time I dance the polka."
You: "How long have you been dancing the polka?"
OduF: "Since I was wee."
You: "I'm not familiar with the polka, but it sounds interesting. Would you please tell me more about it and why you like it?"

When in conversation, most people listen to what the other person is saying primarily to wait for a cue to break in with their own observations, opinions, anecdotes, whathaveyou. When you make the other person's conversation more important than your own, that goes a long, loooooong way toward making you interesting to the other person, because hardly anyone is willing to relinquish getting their own words into the majority of the conversation.

quote:
The always excellent VikkiP:
how you draw the line between flirting and prick-teasing when you have no idea whether you are with someone emotionally vulnerable or not.

Do you mean emotionally "available"?

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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To follow what Kenwritez said:

Miss Manners once recommended in a column that to be really thought charming, one merely needed to be a really good listener. There's nothing more charming than someone really interested in what you're talking about. I'd go farther and say, try to be that good listener, because you'll learn so much more about a potential friend/date that way, anyway.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Vikki Pollard
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quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:

But I do think that the view that flirting is inherently self-centred and manipulative is. Of course it can be so depending on the intentions of the flirt.

Not that anyone's said that. Somebody said one should focus on the other person. As indeed one should in any conversation.

No, KenW,

I mean emotionally VULNERABLE. If I go up to some guy who I think can deal with full-on flirting and in fact I'm wrong and he has secretly longed for me for years or indeed has longed for ANY woman to take an interest - and then he learns I was just having fun 'putting him first'... well. I just think that isn't good.

Seems to me the kind of flirting being described on here is largely self-centred anyway. It's all about enjoying it, isn't it? Or are all these hardened flirts purely altruistic and take no pleasure in the interaction?

Really I think we're talking semantics and I think there are several ways to flirt. If you haven't met me you will just have to take my word that I'm very good at it but I actually take a lot of care about when I indulge because of various experiences (mine and others').

Could we have reached yet another of those live and let live moments??

[ 14. March 2005, 17:33: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]

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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
Really I think we're talking semantics and I think there are several ways to flirt.

I agree entirely. And would add that there are enormous individual variations in flirting, and that context is extremely important.

One thing that hasn't been discussed on this thread is the variations in people's personal charisma. I've known several people who had so much personal charisma that even when they weren't trying to make you feel like you were the only person in the world when they talked to you, that's how you felt.

Another thing that I think should qualify some of the advice is that the same gesture does not always mean the same thing. Some people habitually touch others when they talk to them and don't mean a thing by it, not even casual flirtation. Others almost never touch people when in conversation, and of course lots of people fall somewhere in between those two extremes. If you don't know the person, it can be hard to interpret what touching might mean.

Same thing goes the other way around for the person being touched. If I strike up a conversation with a man I don't know, it is quite enough that he shows interest in talking with me--I don't want him to touch me. I dislike being touched by strangers, even if they're attractive men with whom I might share interests. So someone following some of the advice about touching given on this thread would be going wrong with me.

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Vikki Pollard
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[Overused]

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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
aj

firewire technophobe
# 1383

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RuthW, I'd be interested (curiously and not sarcastically) to see how you tackle the discussion on personal charisma.

Is it something that we can gauge in ourselves? Not sure about that. Do we see, say, female friends, taken in by a guy's `charisma', when we ourselves can see straight through it as being shallow (and maybe it is sincere but in our own cynicism/jealousy/protective nature/etc....)

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if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?

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Vikki Pollard
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# 5548

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Absolutely. This is at the core of the 'Nobody wants a Nice Guy' myth. (Sure I do!)

Women also suffer daily as they see their man-eating friends and colleagues snap up men who gaze at them like puppies, knowing all too well that those poor guys will be minced by the end of the week.

[Disappointed]

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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)

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sewanee_angel
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# 2908

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Ok, flirting experts, please advise me on the situation below.

I've had a series of conversations (over the course of several months) with a guy in my building. Topics of conversation are usually but not exclusively our dogs, the incompetent leasing office, work, and the local uni sports. Both of us have initiated conversations and some have lasted 15-20 minutes (we're not talking smile and wave as you pass in the stairwell). I know he lives alone and he knows I live alone. He has never mentioned a girlfriend (there have been clear times to mention her, if she existed) but I've never picked up on any potential romantic interest in me. However, I'd have to be hit by the clue train before I'd pick up the clue.

Have we been flirting with each other or not?

Posts: 598 | From: a van down by the river | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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This was a related story to an online news item about the Mystery Worshipper product that will no doubt be very useful here ...

Online flirting will send you straight to Hell.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by sewanee_angel:
Ok, flirting experts, please advise me on the situation below.

I've had a series of conversations (over the course of several months) with a guy in my building. Topics of conversation are usually but not exclusively our dogs, the incompetent leasing office, work, and the local uni sports. Both of us have initiated conversations and some have lasted 15-20 minutes (we're not talking smile and wave as you pass in the stairwell). I know he lives alone and he knows I live alone. He has never mentioned a girlfriend (there have been clear times to mention her, if she existed) but I've never picked up on any potential romantic interest in me. However, I'd have to be hit by the clue train before I'd pick up the clue.

Have we been flirting with each other or not?

Like they say about jazz music, if you gotta ask the question would you understand the answer? Course you have.

If the question is "have we been standing on a ledge waiting to jump?" that is different.

Suggest you take in a uni sports fixture. Provided you don't support bitter rivals (if they do, go to a neutral fixture) you should find out enough to decide on whether to continue to a restaurant or whatever.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
I'm going to stick my neck out here to pump a little adrenalin into this thread and ask you how you draw the line between flirting and prick-teasing when you have no idea whether you are with someone emotionally vulnerable or not.

That's easy, everybody is emotionally vulnerable.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
Absolutely. This is at the core of the 'Nobody wants a Nice Guy' myth.

What is?

Its not clear what thats a coooment on.

Also it may be a myth but that doesn't stop it being largely true.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by aj:
RuthW, I'd be interested (curiously and not sarcastically) to see how you tackle the discussion on personal charisma.

Is it something that we can gauge in ourselves? Not sure about that. Do we see, say, female friends, taken in by a guy's `charisma', when we ourselves can see straight through it as being shallow (and maybe it is sincere but in our own cynicism/jealousy/protective nature/etc....)

Charisma isn't always shallow. Some people are extremely attractive to lots of other people because they really do think you're the only person in the world when they're talking to you. There is a false charisma, though, the sleazy used-car sales sort of thing, which does fool some people, or else sleazy sales types wouldn't use it, and if that's what you're seeing through as "shallow," more power to you.

And sorry, ken, but I really must take issue with your claim that the "nobody wants a nice guy" myth is true. I'm sure it seems that way to a lot of nice guys. And there are certainly plenty of women with serious issues who are falling for the bad boys again and again. It's just as disheartening to see men fall for shallow users and goldbrickers and women with more care for their hair than the men they're with. But I know far more women who truly want a nice guy than otherwise. I have never been interested in bad boys. I briefly dated one just out of morbid curiosity, but every man I have been really interested in has been a board-certified Nice Guy™. Hands up, all women on this thread who prefer nice guys.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Glimmer

Ship's Lantern
# 4540

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Here's another Agony Aunt letter to the Flirting Experts.
I'm not a kissy huggy person with people I only know as 'acquaintances', so a handshake is fine by me for Passing The Peace and similar. However, there are two women I know (one a fairly close colleague in church and one a client's secretary) who always kiss me directly on the lips. Both are married. I don't know what passes for normal currency amongst kissy huggy people so should I not pay any attention or should I be careful not to unwittingly encourage intimacy of the wrong sort. I get on with them well and always make my best efforts to be happy and well behaved.
Is the outer thicko Glimmer not reading neon signs or is inner lusty Glimmer imagining things? [Help]

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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork

Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Not a Flirting Expert, but ...

ick.

[Edit: I hasten to add, "ick" refers to kisses on the lips from married people, not to you, Glimmer.]

[ 15. March 2005, 17:05: Message edited by: RuthW ]

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Our church is huggy but not kissy. Some newcomers misunderstand but their peers ask them to watch what others do and when in Rome as it were...

As far as these ladies are concerned I recommend you take the initiative. Move towards them but on final approach move sharp left and give the luvvy "mwah" non-kiss to cheek instead, very quietly.

Good luck.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
share a ferret
Shipmate
# 8975

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Well i'm a very kissy/huggy person, but i generally don't kiss friends on the lips. I do on the cheek sometimes, but not usually on the lips. There is however, one exception. A girl i know is even more kissy/huggy than me, and we kiss on the lips when we meet/part, but there is nothing in it, we are not at all interested in each other in anyway.

To be honest, i think you have to decide for yourself what they mean by it, because for some people it is normal, for others it is not. I would just check to see if they kiss other people or whether it's just you, i think that could give away their intentions.

Posts: 92 | From: The Family Room (UK) | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Glimmer

Ship's Lantern
# 4540

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Thanks, everyone!
Just going out to a Cursillo reunion so I shall practice my swerving. Better safe than sorry.

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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork

Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged



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