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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
The Old and New Testaments are seen as equal with the Book of Mormon, provided it is translated correctly.

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That would be in the Joseph Smith rewrite?

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However, said one prophet: "The Book of Mormon is the most righteous book ever to be upon the Earth, and is the keystone of our religion."

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...The reason why we disagree is not because the Book of Mormon conflicts with traditional-Christianity, but because yours and my idea of God are abherrently different.

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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
It corrects it for us!

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Originally posted by Campbellite:
...Who knew the LDS was PoMo?

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Originally posted by Sean D:
That's simple, and it's why I believe that God is Trinity. Jesus is God - as John himself tells us. Yet he is somehow distinct from God. Therefore, there is more than one person involved in God. Jesus relates to God perfectly as a son. The one who relates to God the Father perfectly as a son cannot be less than divine himself.

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Originally posted by Belle:
So we can't talk about God in three persons unless we have the understanding that they are all 'part' of one God? Can we say 'part' or is that a misunderstanding?

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Originally posted by Sean D:
At the end of the day, I just can't accept the distinction between you draw between "divine" and "God" since surely this is the very distinction which the Bible works so hard to counteract (even though equally clearly it also contains traces [rather than teachings!] of a prior tradition where YHWH was one god among many). Surely one of the central thrusts of the OT is that God shares his divinity with nobody. To be divine is to be YHWH and he is utterly alone in his transcendence. To be other than YHWH is to be not-divine.

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John 10.33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35“If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36“do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38“but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. John 10

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God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.

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For openers, how does the Cross save us if Christ is not God, and what does it save us from?

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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
My interpretation of what He saves us from, is that Jesus saves us on the most part for the sins we cannot put right ourselves.

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'The bestowal peace and grace lies in the province of God, who alone can create these blessings... In attributing to Christ the divine power of creating and giving grace, peace, everlasting life, righteousness, and forgiveness of sins, the conclusion is inevitable that Christ is truly God... So viciuos is sin that only the sacrifice of Christ could atone for sin... Sin is an exacting despot who can be vanquished by no created power, but by the sovereign power Jesus Christ alone.'

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However, why did Christ leave commandments on the Earth? Did He leave them simply as a nice way of life, or did He leave them because following these commandments are essential for entrance into Heaven?

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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
It has nothing to do with the love we show for Christ (alone) - although of course we must show love for Christ (if ye love me, keep my commandments.) Christ left commandments, specifically that we might go to heaven.

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Originally posted by GreyFace:
Anyone else interested in exploring further the soteriological implications of Christology, which is I would suggest perhaps a more useful way of looking at Scripture than narrow proof-texting?

For openers, how does the Cross save us if Christ is not God, and what does it save us from?

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Originally posted by Freddy:
One of the big problems with the Trinity is that it leads to the idea that Christ's sacrifice frees us from the obligation to keep the commandments.

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:

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Originally posted by 12uthy:
This is the reasoning for the NWT rendering it as "a god" (lower case) in John 1:1.

This then led to the problem with:
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before, me.

Which of course I hold to mean that worship of Jesus would be idolatry (depending upon your definition of worship)

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I completely agree with you. If we give Jesus worship and he is not the Almighty God, then we are in serious trouble.

This becomes interesting if you look at how the word "worship" (pr?skun?? ?????????) is used in the New Testament. It is used to apply to God as much as it is used to apply to Jesus.

This chart is very interesting because it shows how the NWT translates the same word differently depending on who it applies to. About 35 times it applies to God, the Devil, demons, idols, "the beast" and "his image". All those times, the NWT translates the word as "worship". But the 15 times that it applies to Jesus, the word magically becomes "obeisance".

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
Yes, that does cause a huge problem - could you worship the flag, as long as you gave it less worship than you would give to Jehovah?

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That is a very good question, which I admit atm I cannot justify. (but watch this space )

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:

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There is no doubt that Jesus is divine and he is a god (theos)

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Again the JW argument runs into huge problems. The first commandment sctricly prohibits us having other Gods than the true one. If Jehovah is the "only true god" then where does that leave Jesus?

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
Ahh - you are getting so close here, Ruthy! The Holy Spirit is indeed the very essense of God - he is truly divine. There is nothing about him that is not God.

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
can I leave you with this page?

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By all means, but I don't think that it clarifies much. I haven't had time to look up each of the references in the tables yet but I do have a few comments about the introductory paragraph:

It states that the Holy Spirit must be a person rather than a force because:
1)a force "could not speak" (Acts 13:2)

This is a gross simplification of the word epo in this verse.
Do our consciences not "speak" to us?
Do not actions "speak" louder than words?
Does not a witness have to "speak" yet Job 16:8 speaks of wrath (or in some translations wrinkles ) being a witness.
And if he were a person who could speak why would he use other people to speak for him:
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

and 2) A force could not be grieved.
Can we not be grieved in our spirit?
Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
May the Holy Spirit intercede for you!

Pax,
ar

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Thank you likewise

[fixed code]

[ 06. May 2005, 18:27: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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Love 12uthy
(Romans 12:1) . . .present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason.. . .

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Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
Ephesians 2:8-10 Case closed.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
"Narrow" proof-texting is the point of this thread. The question is whether Scripture supports the Trinity. The answer is therefore expected to include Scripture.

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The soteriological implications of Christology are meaningless if the Scriptures do not support the Christology.

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Originally posted by 12uthy:
Yes I agree that the HS is God...

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...what I have issue with is the Trinitarian extrapolation that "he" is another person, in his own right, also.

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How about John 14:15-17?

And I [God the Son] will ask [God] the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the [God the Holy] Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you

Remember:
We're His temple!
He is 'another' like Jesus
He's a [wonderful] counsellor i.e. He has a ministry

So He is God; He is ontologically continuous with Jesus; and He has a ministry. Does that sound like an impersonal force to you?

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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
[The video is set in around Christ's time.] A man loans some money off a wealthy man to set up his own crop growing business. It ends up, the crops don't grow, and the man cannot pay the wealthy man back his money. The man is arrested, and brought to the loan broker for punishment. All of a sudden, another man (representing Jesus) comes in, and offers to pay off the loan, provided that the man who loaned the money works for Him in return. In a similar way, Christ compensates for the sins we commit by paying the price for His sacrifice on the cross (or in the garden of Gethsemane.) Salvation, therefore is solely dependant upon the mercy of Christ.

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1. Christ's Earthly sacrifice, and the sacrifice of His glory on the Earth pays the price for the sins people have commited while in the days of their probation.

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M.T Tomb - as aforementioned, I do not accept that we are a "sinful" people - I do believe that we all have the capability of being perfect - Enoch demonstrated this well. We are told Mat 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

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Originally posted by GreyFace:
I'm saying that, taking Scripture as a whole, more than one understanding of soteriology may be derived. This is not, in essence, narrow proof-texting although I think you could say it's broad proof-texting. I'm talking themes, concepts, and so on derived from Scripture rather than individual verses.

This is why we disagree on interpretations of John 1.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

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Originally posted by Freddy:
One of the big problems with the Trinity is that it leads to the idea that Christ's sacrifice frees us from the obligation to keep the commandments.

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Say WHAT? There are oodles of Trinitarians who believe that we are still beholden to live lives in accordance with God's commands. So I don't think you can lay this particular bogeyman at the foot of the Trinity. Whatever you yourself believe about the Trinity, you should try to be accurate and fair when ascribing beliefs and actions to Trinitarians.

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Originally posted by GreyFace:
Narrow proof-texting is not the point of the thread. There are ways of using Scripture as a whole, rather than looking at one, two or three passages and attempting to construct proofs based on those alone.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
Still, I do lay that bogeyman at the foot of the Trinity because I believe that the substitutionary atonement is implicit in the dividing of God into three persons.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
I agree that no Christian would deny that they are beholden to live lives in accordance with God's commands.

Still, I do lay that bogeyman at the foot of the Trinity because I believe that the substitutionary atonement is implicit in the dividing of God into three persons.

I realize that most Christians do not take it that far, or accept the idea that "we are saved while we are still sinners." Nevertheless, this is the direction that a trinity of persons leads. The Athanasian Trinity of "soul, body and operation", however, is completely different.

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Sorry Freddy, but I think you are completely mistaken.

First, the psychological analogy of the trinity is not from Athanasius himself nor from Eastern theology, but from the athanasian creed, which is latin and augustinian. It was the (augustinian) West which eventually formulated PSA. (Though St. Augustine did not formulate this himself).

The Cappadocians, who do not cling to PSA, have a somewhat different conception of the trinity in contrast to the psychological analogy that St. Augustine offered, yet they were not prone to PSA.

What do one of them say?

Gregory asks: to Whom was Christ sacrificed?

But if to the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed; and next, On what principle did the Blood of His Only begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being offered by his Father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in the place of the human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things? So much we have said of Christ; the greater part of what we might say shall be reverenced with silence St. Gregory the Theologian, The second oration on pascha

This bogeyman should not be put at the feet of the trinity, perhaps pseudo-arianism?

[ 06. May 2005, 15:19: Message edited by: Bonaventura ]

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So lovers of wine drink up! The Beloved has lifted his red glass. And paradise cannot be, now, far away. -Hafëz

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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:

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Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
Ephesians 2:8-10 Case closed.

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith does save us, first and foremost. But Jesus left commandments: "unless....ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Is this a contradiction? No. Because equally we know that faith without works are dead. (James 2:20). Faith and works are inseperable.

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So likewise ye, when ye have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

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Originally posted by Bonaventura:
Sorry Freddy, but I think you are completely mistaken.

First, the psychological analogy of the trinity is not from Athanasius himself nor from Eastern theology, but from the athanasian creed, which is latin and augustinian. It was the (augustinian) West which eventually formulated PSA. (Though St. Augustine did not formulate this himself).

The Cappadocians, who do not cling to PSA, have a somewhat different conception of the trinity in contrast to the psychological analogy that St. Augustine offered, yet they were not prone to PSA.

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Originally posted by Bonaventura:
I was about to demonstrate that the LDS believed in (P)SA without the Trinity and without believing that Jesus is God. Which makes things a fair bit worse, in my humble opinion.

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Right you are. The worst of both worlds.

What I like about LDS is the belief that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. At least, I think they believe that.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
No not at all... we believe that ALL are saved. But... this sounds so lame but it's our belief... all good endowed members of our church, and a few of whom Christ has mercy on will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. All will be saved (apart from those few who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost.)

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OK. Well, that should make the universalists happy.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
No not at all... we believe that ALL are saved. But... this sounds so lame but it's our belief... all good endowed members of our church, and a few of whom Christ has mercy on will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. All will be saved (apart from those few who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost.)

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Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Well although this sounds arrogant, when you die, you will have the chance again to accept the true gospel, and can be with your whole family if you accept it in the Celestial kingdom - that, of course, is provided that somebody baptizes you vicariously in the Temple, which - if you have LDS family - will almost certainly happen!

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m.t_tomb Christ's commandments are not a way to show our love for Him, although our love for Him is showed when we follow His commandments. His commandments, according to the orthodox tradition and experience, are the way for us to live in the kingdom of heavens right now and here. We enter the kingdom by following Christ's commandments, not by mere intellectual agreement that He is Lord.

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Salvation does not come because we love and respect Christ, but because we have trust (aka faith) in triune god. If one puts all one's trust in God and makes one's life a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God, then God will give him / her salvation and He will be his / her god and they will be His holy people.

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