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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Personal Relationship with Christ? Huh?
LutheranChik
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quote:
Don't be put off. The Lutheran God isn't the only one on the market.
That hardness of heart thing again?

That statement was rude, condescending, hurtful to a Christian with the same Lord, who stands under the same cross, and altogether not becoming for this particular forum. Not to mention nonresponsive to the topic thread.

If anyone wants to do Lutheran theology with me I'd be most happy to do it via e-mail. Not on this topic thread. And I think the Moderator here would agree with me.

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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I like the way you divided the ideas, Callan.

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
... One lot are saying: I am a person, God is a person, I have faith in God, ergo I have a personal relationship with God...

Not me. More to it than that. The way you said that there, it sounded almost like, "I am a mammal, the third wildebeest on the left in the National Geographic special is a mammal, therefore me an' ol' Beestie are having lunch next Tuesday."

quote:
... Another lot are saying personal relationship implies a degree of affective closeness that cannot really exist in this situation...
Maybe they've never had or wanted or witnessed a healthy, actual example of one of these relationships.

quote:
I think personal commitment might be a better expression because it signals something relational...
"Commitment" is OK but "relationship" isn't... I can be committed to God but have no actual relationship, no interaction with Him?

Can He be committed to me? If He can, why would not the personal committment of God to the individual Me not imply some sort of interaction, some sort of relational state?

When I run across a Scripture that seems to imply to me a personal, individual interest in me on God's part, is it only metaphorical?

quote:
... inasmuch as it implies that this stuff matters but doesn't have the affective baggage of PRWG.
One man's baggage is another man's light burden and easy yoke.

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Jahlove
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IME, I’ve found phrases (usually from people who would as soon exorcise you as say “hello”) such as “are you saved”, “have you accepted Jesus as your personal saviour” &c. to be shibboleths meaning “do you believe exactly the same things, the same way and carry out the same practices that I/we do?” . And when my response to the latter part of the “equation” is “no” (and because of my varied life-experiences I shy from these because to me it has connotations of abuse, manipulation and thought-control), it is taken that I therefore reject the notion of “salvation” and Jesus’ role in this and I am deemed to be in the camp of Satan (or at least checking out the sleeping bags in the Malebolge branch of Millett’s).

It’s the subjective assumptive fallacy here that I find irritating:

being saved (X) MUST = (Y) chorus singing, waving arms, slaying in spirit etc.

As a child, brought up in what was then termed “low” CofE, I saw people kneel & rest their heads in their palms and imagined they were feeling something really out of the ordinary (altered state of consciousness or really, truly, communing with, talking to/being spoken to by, God.) And I didn’t “feel” this ergo something wrong with me. Changes of incumbents brought what would now be called an AffCath style which was much more appealing to me, combining reason & ritual - too late for me by then - afflicted with the pissed-offedness of the post-pubertal teenager!

I have two friends who are of the evo persuasion. One believes that any Biblical criticism is the work of the Devil and does not accept even the idea that her pastor’s exposition is AN interpretation of some sort and her conversation is often just a repetition of jargon phrases; the other respects the way I think and feel and sometimes says she learns from me and therefore I respect the way she is and I KNOW I learn from her though neither of us would feel comfortable in each other’s worship traditions. It’s quite interesting that I am very fond of both of them and they of me.

I think I’m in good philosophical company if I do not put all my trust in “feelings” but as for religious faith, I will get nowhere if I cannot relax the boundaries of provable rationalism.

I guess what I’m saying is that anyone who tries to “unchurch”, “dechristianize” or “demonize” me because I don’t go along with their “True Way” ain’t no way to win a convert!

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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whitelaughter
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by adamant azzy:
quote:
OP'd by Lutheranchick..... Want to send other people to The Bad Place......
But if your daughter was raped and killed by a fiend you would not want the same? Right?
Yes but that is because of the hardness of my heart and my own inability to forgive. God supposedly has no such inability.
Were that the case, Hell would be empty.
The people who hate child molestors the most aren't the victims, nor their relatives, but the poor counsellors who love enough to devote themselves to healing the victims. "God loves you" gets screamed at us from every quarter, but somehow people like to forget the idea that God loves our victims, loves more than we can imagine. You'll regularly hear people saying "I don't believe in a God who sends people to Hell", but only from those who've never got their finger out to help others; a few years trying to help a rape victim, or being there for some poor sap going through heroin withdrawalm, will grind that belief out of anyone.
Of course, the complainers will never do so, they're having to much fun being smug to care about the broken ones around them.
Tangent over, back to the original topic:
Do you really think Jesus wants to listen to a "yes it is/no it isn't" diatribe? Well, we're gathered in His name, so He's online. Whether you sense His presence or not, He's here, so make sure that you're happy with the idea of his having to wade through your posts.
And then you may find His presence far more real than you ever imagined.

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LutheranChik
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Whitelaughter: Thank you for the reality check.

I think the Lord might be comparing this topic thread with that little dust-up, many years ago, about who gets to sit next to him in his reign -- some of the disciples vying for the preferential seating, other disciples yelling at those disciples, etc. "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Have mercy.

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Simul iustus et peccator
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Josephine

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quote:
Originally posted by whitelaughter:
The people who hate child molestors the most aren't the victims, nor their relatives, but the poor counsellors who love enough to devote themselves to healing the victims. "God loves you" gets screamed at us from every quarter, but somehow people like to forget the idea that God loves our victims, loves more than we can imagine. You'll regularly hear people saying "I don't believe in a God who sends people to Hell", but only from those who've never got their finger out to help others; a few years trying to help a rape victim, or being there for some poor sap going through heroin withdrawalm, will grind that belief out of anyone.
Of course, the complainers will never do so, they're having to much fun being smug to care about the broken ones around them.

Whitelaughter, I know that you are still an apprentice. Nevertheless, responding to this, even in a Purgatorial style, would derail this thread, and I'm not sure I can respond and remain Purgatorial. But I am not willing to let this go unchallenged, so I am starting a Hell thread. Please do me the favor of joining me there.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Jahlove
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posted by whitelaughter:

quote:
You'll regularly hear people saying "I don't believe in a God who sends people to Hell", but only from those who've never got their finger out to help others; a few years trying to help a rape victim, or being there for some poor sap going through heroin withdrawalm, will grind that belief out of anyone.
Well, I’m not at all sure about the ontological status of Hell but I have “got my finger out” to help those who have experienced your examples and have myself been a “victim” of them and it has not ground out belief, oddly, but has led me to seek God more. So what’s that about I wonder?

Also from whitelaughter

Well, we're gathered in His name, so He's online. Whether you sense His presence or not, He's here, so make sure that you're happy with the idea of his having to wade through your posts.


What a very excellent point. I’ve had leanings towards a particular denomination/expression of faith for many years yet it’s only since my active participation on these boards that I’ve made a move to do what is necessary to fulfil this. Thanks. There’s a thread somewhere asking “which poster is the Queen of England?” Maybe we should ask “which poster is Jesus?” And maybe, in a body-of-Christ, Spartacus sort of way, we would all have to reply “I am” and totally flood the boards and crash the server [Smile]

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Dobbo
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
REAL two-way conversation.

A personal experience of mine

I was living in a foreign land (England) , my overdraft was overdrawn , and I went to the midweek prayer meeting , the person leading talked about God caring for us (1 Peter 5 v 7).

I went home to my digs and turned the verse back to God in prayer. I had a peace that night that I had not had for some time. The next day I received a tax rebate from the Inland Revenue.

Now to a Scot that truly is a real two way conversation. That I will always attribute the intervention of God and not down to a mere set of coincidences.

Does the definition we are "friends of Christ" rather than having a PRWG make it any easier . I think in essence, to me, it is similar and certainly has a much more biblical construct - John 15 v 15.

If that is so - Christ being perfect - what does that mean in respect to His friendship towards us. It says He is closer than a brother in one text.

Does God care for us only corporately or is there a possibility He looks down at this individual and knows every hair on my head (admittedly He does not have to count as many now as He used to).

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I'm holding out for Grace......, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity
Bono

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Jason™

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quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Professor Kirke,

I think this is a great tangent. Should we start another thread about it?

I'd love to, but I'd be worried that it may be DH stuff. Callan (or other hosts), what do you think?

-Digory

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Duo Seraphim
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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Professor Kirke,

I think this is a great tangent. Should we start another thread about it?

I'd love to, but I'd be worried that it may be DH stuff. Callan (or other hosts), what do you think?

-Digory

This is the tangent you mean?

Good topic. I've been down to the corral and called its name - it's not a Dead Horse at all.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Custard
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The key is the fact that the Holy Spirit inhabits God's people.

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blog
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Stamp thine image in its place.


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Niënna

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LutheranChik,

I'm very sorry that I poorly worded my opinion so offensely on your sharing of your understanding of God's mercy and love in relation to salvation and heaven. I have the utmost respect for you and really do appreciate what you have to say. I do not think that we worship a different God. I do have a different opinion on salvation and choice and I'll try to not be so sloppy and offensive.

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
It's ironic to think that people are trying to force their personal understandings of a phrase onto others, explaining to them that their relationships are indeed very personal even if they don't admit it.

The Eucharist is not a personal relationship. I don't even know what that would mean.
One and only criteria for having a personal relationship with Christ: saying so.

If someone says they don't, they don't. And neither statement ("I do" or "I don't") should carry any implications from others. (Hahahahaha yeah right I know.)

-Digory

I can't see any irony here at all.

To straighten out your misunderstandings of my exchanges with Karl, it was him that called the Eucharist personal and a relationship - I'm not sure I agree (though you seem to assume I did). I was simply trying to get him to explain how given he said this, he didn't feel it was a personal relationship. With his own example he seemed to agree that repeated "letters from the king" may constitute a personal relationship but let's not get back into that.

I never made any assertion of whether he had a PRWG - you will see he seemed to think I did but when I asked him to explain why, he couldn't.

I find your idea that if someone says they don't have a personal relationship then tht's it they don't pretty thin. Bill Clinton and David Blunkett would just love to live by your rules I'm sure. If I'm playing chess with someone and casually ask, "How long have you been playing chess" and they say, "Oh, I never play chess, I've never heard of it" I've a right to be a little bemused.

As for your dig about a personal relationship with Christ, I have never made any such assertion. All I have done is say once and repeat it - and now repeat it a sceond time - that I don't think a personal relationship with Christ is necessary for salvation - perhaps you never read that.

Love,

Evo1

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
[qb]explaining to them that their relationships are indeed very personal even if they don't admit it.

One last thing, where you referring to someone other than me when you said this or was it just your exagerative style? I say this since I don't remember accusing anyone of having a "very personal relationship".

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
[qb]explaining to them that their relationships are indeed very personal even if they don't admit it.

One last thing, where you referring to someone other than me when you said this or was it just your exagerative style? I say this since I don't remember accusing anyone of having a "very personal relationship".
Getting close to fighting here - take it to Hell if that is the case.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

--------------------
Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Ian Climacus

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Just coming back to this:

quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Is there a difference between a 'personal relationship with God' and a 'personal relationship with Christ'?

This is one thing that always worried me slightly, looking back, at my life B.P. [before the Plot ™ [Big Grin] ]. Perhaps it's projection, perhaps it was just me, but God equalled Jesus alone in my mind, and perhaps this is what gets my back up when I hear the term 'personal relationship with Christ'. Whenever I thought of God, Jesus was it -- the Father and the Holy Spirit were very much in the background.

For those who have and rejoice in a personal relationship with Christ as is being described by Evo, LutheranChik and others..., is this relationship different to your relationship with the other members of the Trinity? Can one have a personal relationship with the Father? with the Holy Spirit? Or does the incarnation of the the Son of God allow a different form of relationship?

[I hope you can understand what I'm asking!]

Thanks,
Ian.

[ 11. November 2005, 10:41: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
For those who have and rejoice in a personal relationship with Christ as is being described by Evo, LutheranChik and others..., is this relationship different to your relationship with the other members of the Trinity? Can one have a personal relationship with the Father? with the Holy Spirit? Or does the incarnation of the the Son of God allow a different form of relationship?

[I hope you can understand what I'm asking!]

Thanks,
Ian.

[I hope so too Ian.] Well, can I do the evo thing and answer this in Jesus' words when one of his disciples said something like, "OK, we know you, you are one of us, but can you introduce us to the father so that we can know Him in the same way?" Here's what he said:

"Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves." Jn 14:9-11

So all though I'd not really thought about it, I'd say that my personal relationship is with God in this way.

In fact, I'd probably say something like: my relationship is with God the Father, through Jesus the Son, in the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
Well, can I do the evo thing and answer this in Jesus' words when one of his disciples said something like, "OK, we know you, you are one of us, but can you introduce us to the father so that we can know Him in the same way?" Here's what he said: [ Jn 14:9-11]

Evo1, do you pray to Jesus, or to the father as Jesus instructed the disciples to?

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Evo1, do you pray to Jesus, or to the father as Jesus instructed the disciples to?

I sense a trap here (but not in a supernatural way [Biased] )

I pray really as I feel led to. Sometimes to the Father, sometimes to Jesus, very very rarely to the Holy Spirit alone though sometimes to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I presume you refer to the Lord's prayer though I stand to be corrected. A good prayer I'd say, but this was again before Pentecost. We read in the epistles that Jesus is our mediator before God and that he will be with us, I don't really see any problem with taking him at his word.

Who do you pray to Demas?

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Demas
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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Evo1, do you pray to Jesus, or to the father as Jesus instructed the disciples to?

I sense a trap here (but not in a supernatural way [Biased]
No trap - I'm just assuming that one aspect of a personal relationship with God would be who you prayed to. Since you say that you pray to all the persons of the trinity: would you say you have a personal relationship with each of them? Are they different personal relationships?

Though I am sorely tempted to start a Purg thread on your comment that the Lord's prayer became less relevant or important at Pentecost!

(I would tend to pray to God as God rather than to any particular person of the trinity.)

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
No trap - I'm just assuming that one aspect of a personal relationship with God would be who you prayed to. Since you say that you pray to all the persons of the trinity: would you say you have a personal relationship with each of them? Are they different personal relationships?

No, the same one, as Jesus said, if you see Him, you are seeing the Father. Presumably if you speak to Him, you are speaking to the Father. As an example, I just had to talk to a friend of mine - a surgeon - in a professional capacity. The personal relationship was no different though I normally speak to him as a friend, I was now speaking to him as my doctor.

quote:
Though I am sorely tempted to start a Purg thread on your comment that the Lord's prayer became less relevant or important at Pentecost!
Sorely tempted you may be, but it would not be based on truth would it? I never said what you suggest. I included my "but" since you seemed to be suggesting that as Jesus said we should pray to the Father before Pentecost that somehow it might not be valid to pray to the Son. Perhaps I am wrong. I did not say it became less relevant or important.

quote:
(I would tend to pray to God as God rather than to any particular person of the trinity.)
No doubt just as effective, I can't say I lay any importance on this.

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Jason™

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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
To straighten out your misunderstandings of my exchanges with Karl, it was him that called the Eucharist personal and a relationship - I'm not sure I agree (though you seem to assume I did). I was simply trying to get him to explain how given he said this, he didn't feel it was a personal relationship. With his own example he seemed to agree that repeated "letters from the king" may constitute a personal relationship but let's not get back into that.

I never made any assertion of whether he had a PRWG - you will see he seemed to think I did but when I asked him to explain why, he couldn't.

I find your idea that if someone says they don't have a personal relationship then tht's it they don't pretty thin. Bill Clinton and David Blunkett would just love to live by your rules I'm sure. If I'm playing chess with someone and casually ask, "How long have you been playing chess" and they say, "Oh, I never play chess, I've never heard of it" I've a right to be a little bemused.

As for your dig about a personal relationship with Christ, I have never made any such assertion. All I have done is say once and repeat it - and now repeat it a sceond time - that I don't think a personal relationship with Christ is necessary for salvation - perhaps you never read that.

To ease Duo's mind, I never intended for this to be any kind of fight with you, Evo. We've been over things before, and I think we both know that we argue differently, and you know that I'd like you to take it a little easy because your style can be a bit abrasive.

My point wasn't specifically for you. It was a general one, though inspired by some of your comments. But I hardly think that you were the only one who agreed with what you said--so my comments were for anyone who silently assented to your position along the way, as well.

The point boils down to this: if you and I were playing chess, and I said I never play chess, you could be "bemused" if you like, but even in that case, there'd be no reason to try to prove to me that I do in fact play chess. If I say I don't, then that's only affecting me, right?

But a BETTER analogy, as we like to find, wouldn't be about the playing of chess. If, while we played, a man came up to me several times and whispered something into my ear, and each time I whispered something back, and then he left. Afterwards, you'd ask me "Is that a close friend of yours?" I might reply, "No, he's not a close friend of mine at all. He's close, because he whispers in my ear, and he's a friend, because I've known him for a little while, but I wouldn't consider him to be a close friend of mine."

The conversation could and probably should end there. But what I see is that people want to go further, and suggest to me, "Well he's come up to you several times now, and he's whispering in your ear. Usually only close friends do that, so I'd say he's probably your close friend. How can you say he's 'close,' and he's a 'friend,' and yet not be a close friend? It doesn't make sense. You should refer to him as your close friend. That's what you're really saying, I think."

It's just not necessary. I don't really know if I consider myself to have a personal relationship with God/Christ. I certainly don't need anyone telling me that I do or that I don't, though.

-Digory

PS Trust me, I'd be making the same argument if someone came into this thread and started trying to tell you all (that believe this way) that you don't really have a personal relationship with Christ because it's not possible for anyone to do so. It's PERSONAL. That's the point.

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
To ease Duo's mind, I never intended for this to be any kind of fight with you, Evo. We've been over things before, and I think we both know that we argue differently, and you know that I'd like you to take it a little easy because your style can be a bit abrasive.

Nor me Digory.

quote:
My point wasn't specifically for you. It was a general one, though inspired by some of your comments. But I hardly think that you were the only one who agreed with what you said--so my comments were for anyone who silently assented to your position along the way, as well.
That's kind of the problem, what did I say? When did I assert that anyone must have a PRWG? A quick reference would be very helpful cos I just don't think it's the case.

quote:
The point boils down to this: if you and I were playing chess, and I said I never play chess, you could be "bemused" if you like, but even in that case, there'd be no reason to try to prove to me that I do in fact play chess. If I say I don't, then that's only affecting me, right?
But you see from your choice of words, you seem to be accusing me of trying to prove something when I was really only trying to exercise a couple of examples/scenarios/analogies to a conclusion. Next time we are playing chess, I promise not even to mention it [Biased] .

quote:
But a BETTER analogy, as we like to find, wouldn't be about the playing of chess. If, while we played, a man came up to me several times and whispered something into my ear, and each time I whispered something back, and then he left. Afterwards, you'd ask me "Is that a close friend of yours?" I might reply, "No, he's not a close friend of mine at all. He's close, because he whispers in my ear, and he's a friend, because I've known him for a little while, but I wouldn't consider him to be a close friend of mine."
There's a couple of things going on here. Firstly, you firstly seem to be using the twin meaning of the word close (in proximity, in emotional terms) I would say we can't really do this for this analogy on the basis that it is not consistent with what we are talking about.
Secondly, I'm not sure that only my close friends whisper in my ear - in fact, it is normally my enemies that do this.

quote:
The conversation could and probably should end there. But what I see is that people want to go further, and suggest to me, "Well he's come up to you several times now, and he's whispering in your ear. Usually only close friends do that, so I'd say he's probably your close friend. How can you say he's 'close,' and he's a 'friend,' and yet not be a close friend? It doesn't make sense. You should refer to him as your close friend. That's what you're really saying, I think."
I think if you were telling me that you and this person were actually really close (in an emotional way) and that he was a friend, it would be a fairly safe bet - in the normal run of things - to conclude that he was a close friend. If not, I should assume there is some good reason why not.

quote:
It's just not necessary. I don't really know if I consider myself to have a personal relationship with God/Christ. I certainly don't need anyone telling me that I do or that I don't, though.
You know how defensive I can be. Just to be sure, that's not what you are saying I am doing is it?

Love,

Evo1

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Jason™

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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
That's kind of the problem, what did I say? When did I assert that anyone must have a PRWG? A quick reference would be very helpful cos I just don't think it's the case.


You didn't, Evo1. Nobody is suggesting you did, so don't worry about it.

quote:

...you seem to be accusing me of trying to prove something when I was really only trying to exercise a couple of examples/scenarios/analogies to a conclusion.

But the scenarios you lay out, you do so in ways that you are implying that the other person should come to a conclusion that you think flows from your scenario. Which is a lot like presenting evidence to someone in hopes that they will come to a conclusion, which is a lot like trying to prove something. I know that may not be your intent, but it's how it is coming across, not just to me, but to all of the people who seem to keep "misunderstanding" you and your posts.

quote:

Firstly, you firstly seem to be using the twin meaning of the word close (in proximity, in emotional terms) I would say we can't really do this for this analogy on the basis that it is not consistent with what we are talking about.

Which I am pretty sure is what Karl LBS was trying to say: there is a difference between a personal relationship and a relationship that happens to be personal, just like there is a difference between a close friend and a friend who happens to be close.

quote:

quote:
I don't really know if I consider myself to have a personal relationship with God/Christ. I certainly don't need anyone telling me that I do or that I don't, though.
You know how defensive I can be. Just to be sure, that's not what you are saying I am doing is it?

Not specifically. I think it's what many people are implying when they try to explain to people like Karl, Josephine and others that some of us may have a personal relationship with God/Christ, as they understand it, already, when some of these people simply don't feel as though they do. That's all.

Not that people are saying you MUST have one to be saved, but just in implying that you DO have one, when you don't feel as though you do, is overstepping boundaries in some ways. Please just tell us why you feel like you* do, if in fact you* do. That will be perfectly interesting and a wonderful addition to a good, healthy discussion about the phrase and its origins re: the OP.

-Digory

*to clarify, "you" here is general and not specific.

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Evo1
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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
But the scenarios you lay out, you do so in ways that you are implying that the other person should come to a conclusion that you think flows from your scenario. Which is a lot like presenting evidence to someone in hopes that they will come to a conclusion, which is a lot like trying to prove something. I know that may not be your intent, but it's how it is coming across, not just to me, but to all of the people who seem to keep "misunderstanding" you and your posts.

You may almost have a point, if of course it was me coming up with the analogies - in the main, I'm just taking those of others (though the chess one was originally mine I accept)

Evo1 wrote:
Firstly, you firstly seem to be using the twin meaning of the word close (in proximity, in emotional terms) I would say we can't really do this for this analogy on the basis that it is not consistent with what we are talking about.
PK wrote: Which I am pretty sure is what Karl LBS was trying to say: there is a difference between a personal relationship and a relationship that happens to be personal, just like there is a difference between a close friend and a friend who happens to be close.



Now you are doing it, you say a relationship that happens to be personal is not a personal relationship? Please, give me one example of this.

That of course isn't what I said in my quote though is it, I was saying that the word close has two different meanings: close in proxmity, close in intimate terms. Perhaps to answer fully you could give me two different meanings of the word "Personal".

How long do you reckon we can keep this going?

Love,

Evo1

[ 11. November 2005, 19:20: Message edited by: Evo1 ]

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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

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Basket Case
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from Tom Clune:
quote:
I guess it's awfully hard to rise above one's own limitations on these things, and realize that other people may have a deep and abiding faith life that simply manifests itself differently from mine...
Amen and amen [Smile] I think a corollary is that the ones doing the scoffing and judging would be better served by wondering about those fingers pointing back at oneself.

from josephine:
quote:
For people to insist that this is the only, or the best, or the right way to have a relationship with God are excluding autistic people from having a relationship with God by defining it in a way that they may never experience. You're placing a heavy burden on them by expecting them to be just like you.
I don't see what you see, Josephine. I don't see those who assert they do have a personal relationship with Christ, saying that's the best or only. (I'm talking about here on the Ship, not about in the Loony Tune versions of religion that people love to use as a straw man). Maybe I missed it, and you can point it out to me if you wish.

Quite the opposite, in fact. One here expressed his opinion that PRWG people may possibly have their doubting natures to thank for it. Many parables to that effect, like Prodigal Son, lost sheep, etc.

OTOH, I do see those who say they do NOT have a personal relationship with Christ, scoffing at the possibility that anyone might - and I am talking about here, on the Ship, in this thread.

EXAMPLE from MT:
quote:
Evo1, I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I don't dislike the term primarily because of the way Aspies feel about it; I dislike the term because it is inaccurate.

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mousethief

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You have mistaken my intent, I fear. My point was not that a personal relationship with Christ is not possible. It is that the term was being misused. Some people have spoken of their own relationships in terms that fulfill the reciprocity requirement (and clearly I have to take their word for it, as I can't get inside their heads and experience what they experience).

But others have described relationships (for want of a better term) that do not meet the reciprocity requirement, and yet insist they are "personal relationships". These are the ones who are misusing the language (in my ever-so-humble opinion).

I do not deny the possibility, or the actuality, of people having what I would call a "personal relationship" with God/Christ. What I do resent from (some of) these people is their insistence that I must, or do, have the same when I know that I do not.

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by St. Sebastian:
What are people talking about when they say you have to have a personal relationship with Christ? What are they talking about when they say they have one and how much strength and comfort they get from it? I honestly don't understand (thereby betraying that I don't have one, I suppose). I'm not comfortable with the "me and my 'ol pal, Jeeze" attitude. I can't really see God as a "pal" or even a friend. I'm in a very disconnected place right now, but even when I'm "connected" (meaning attending church regularly, praying regularly)I'm not sure I could say I have a personal relationship with Christ. Does that just mean feeling His Presence sometimes? I invariably feel joy when I receive the Holy Mysteries (sometimes for a second, sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes longer, but, so far, I never receive without feeling something). Does that count? I don't know if I have a personal relationship or not, because I don't know what people mean by the phrase. I gather that many or most consider it essential to salvation, which is a bit worrisome. Do you have one? How do you know? What do YOU mean by that?

Without having read the four pages of discussion, I am simply going to answer the initial question (above, in case you forgot!) - speaking *for myself* the "personal relationship" with Jesus has built slowly over literally decades and it is very dependent upon how much time I give Him, so for most of that time it grew gradually, then I had a major life crisis 11 years ago and knew the only way through it was if Jesus carried me (almost literally).

I was completely broken as a human being. I think this is something of what David spoke of when he said, "A broken and a contrite heart You will not despise--" (Ps 51:17; see also Ps 34:18 and Isaiah 57:15). I suspect most people never get broken that completely, and the downside of being only *partially* broken (which, believe me, I would have chosen, given the choice!) is that we can mend our hearts too quickly. I believe a broken heart gives God access to our deep places. So during that crisis time (and it was a couple of years of very heavy stuff), I spent at least an hour reading the Bible and praying on a daily basis, often considerably more. So in my broken state, I was filling myself with God's word - asking Him every time, "please open Your word to me and open me to Your word."

I think that's a request God loves to honor. I didn't have an agenda, I didn't have a particular point of view, I just knew I was devastated and needed His help. And God started doing three things: first, speaking to me in scripture - bringing to mind a particular passage and applying it to a situation; second, bringing scripture to life in a profound way, including the sense of "underlining" it in front of me and applying those passages to myself or my situation; third, giving me images, mental pictures with spiritual interpretations. Some people get dreams from the Lord but I don't seem to be one of them - I'm talking about waking images.

In regard to reading scripture and having it become "bold" type, as it were (the best way I can explain it), I was not jumping around the Bible and I was not looking for such passages; I was not playing "Bible roulette" - I was following a regimen of scripture reading (and for about 7 years that included reading all of Psalms and all of Proverbs every month, which is a GREAT feeding discipline - takes some time, but less than you'd think, and it's very rich. You read the chapter of Proverbs that corresponds to the day of the month - so Proverbs 31 gets short shrift, but that's probably a good thing for Christian women who feel their shortcomings when confronted by the Proverbs 31 Woman! - and likewise for the Psalms, but you also add 30, 60, 90 and 120 to the day of the month - and you save Psalm 119 for the 31st. I recommend it highly and I'm longing to get back into it, myself). I also like reading the Bible cover-to-cover, like almlost any other book - it reads very differently when you read the whole thing instead of focusing on one book at a time and jumping around (you want to read it in fairly short order - it can easily be done in a month).

And then I'd pause and meditate upon the word - when something was confusing, I'd pray about it: "Lord, what's this about? what's going on here?" and sometimes I'd get immediate clarification and sometimes it would be days or weeks later, apropos of nothing in particular, when knowledge got 'dropped' into my head, so to speak. And I'd pray. I spent a lot of time wrestling with forgiveness and I know full well that I don't get into heaven on my own account (it's a pretty messed up account) and Jesus links our forgiveness by God with our forgiveness of those who've sinned against us - so, for MY sake, I really want to forgive the people who sin against me.

And in those prayer times, I started getting this picture of myself as a tiny baby, maybe 2-3 months, and Jesus was holding me in His arms and washing me clean - it was very specific and gentle and it took time. You know how little babies have folds of fat on their arms and thighs and they get funky in those folds? He would so carefully and lovingly wash my "folds" - it was very profound and very healing.

I'd never before seen myself as an infant in relationship to Jesus but hey, if that's how HE sees me, that's how it is. So coming to Him that *very* dependent child mode has been important. Now I'm usually a bit older - 3-4 years of age, I'd guess - sometimes I'm an adult, but lots of my interactions with Him are in child-mode.

I wish this meant that He told me, every day and every moment, what to do and how to decide things - I have great ambivalence about free will! And it's easy for me to get caught in my own stuff, to lose perspective and have a hard time making decisions, so having godly counsel on the outisde helps (a priest with the gift of wisdom is a real boon). But I definitely have a personal relationship with Jesus and it's very rewarding to me. I don't feel any of that "my buddy" stuff - no, He's my God, my Savior, my Father, my Teacher - not in stuffy way (I can run up and throw my arms around His legs! remember, I'm a *little* kid) - but there's no delusion that we're remotely on the same level.

Does this help or make any sense?

As to feeling His Presence in the sacraments, I think that's a part of it, that's a beginning place - it's God saying, "I'm here, I'm real - press in." It's an invitation to something more, I think.

--------------------
Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Mudfrog posted:

quote:
Personal relationship with Jesus means exactly 'what it says on the tin'.

It means that you have a communion with him, a conversation in prayer, that you have the promise of his presence and his love within your heart.
It means that in a profound way, he knows your name and you walk with him in faith.

As far as the personal bit goes, it means that it's something that is real to you, experienced at first hand rather than because you joined in with the crowd...

And then Karl LB said

quote:
Mudfrog; in my evangelical charismatic days I tried to have, and desperately wanted, what you describe.

It never happened, and I have to conclude it's not for everyone.

I'm with you all the way there, Karl! I tried, in my fundie days, oh! how I tried, to imagine Jesus beside me, holding my hand, whispering in my ear, whatever, and just couldn't! If I expressed this to anyone they accused me of not being "baptised in the Spirit", or even of not being a "proper Christian" because I couldn't have "made a proper committment to Jesus".

I don't think the "warm fuzzies" are for everyone. Not that it's wrong if that's your thing - just that some of us are different.

So now I do what Jesus told us to do - pray to God the Father, thank him for his Son, do my best to follow the teaching of Jesus (which best is not good enough), and hope there really is a life after death.

If that isn't enough - tough!

I suspect one of the reasons why the church has split into so many pieces is because we have a hard time *allowing* that God works with us differently and as individuals. There is the temptation to say, "if *I* can have this, then ANYBODY and EVERYONE can have it, too" and it's not too big a step from there to saying, "and if they DON'T have it, there's something wrong with them--" So we cluster with like-minded and like-experienced people, which is a bit of a problem when the illustration is "the body of Christ" and a body requires different parts, a wide variety of parts - I fear we tend to have churches which are a collection of ears, or hands, or intestines and that we don't do enough interaction on a kingdom level, being too fragmented by denominations.

I've seen people do the, "you're just not trying hard enough!" reaction to the person who hasn't received a prayer language (which somehow makes it that person's failing instead of the sovereign Holy Spirit giving gifts as HE wills) - and I've also seen the other side of that equation go all defensively intellectual and dismiss the personal feeling side as self-manufactured and semi-delusional. The challenge is to stand in the tension and know God is God, we are not, and His gifts are His to do with as He pleases - not everybody gets "the warm fuzzies" and we can't track it to lack of diligence on the individual's part.

If you're doing what Jesus has told you to do, then there is no more to be done - no one can do more without running ahead and getting into another form of trouble!

--------------------
Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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Jason™

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quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
Now you are doing it, you say a relationship that happens to be personal is not a personal relationship? Please, give me one example of this.

Look. I've spoken to my mailman. She is a person. I am a person. I have a relationship with her because we relate in that she brings my mail, and I say hello sometimes if I happen to see her. Relationship that is personal. Here, personal means "involving a person or persons". I do NOT, however, have a "personal relationship" with her. If someone asked me "Do you have a personal relationship with your mail carrier?" they would not be asking if my mail carrier is a person, and if I relate to her occasionally. They would be asking if I have a close, well-known relationship with her or not. Personal means close and intimate on some level.

quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
How long do you reckon we can keep this going?

Not much longer, I hope. It's not going anywhere and is completely off the point by this time.

-Digory

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by o00o:
I grew up in a conservative evangelical church and have never really felt whatever it is everyone else seemed to feel that caused them to shut their eyes, raise their arms in the air and look ernest. In my blackest moments I have thought that the whole lot was a fraud and just psychological manipulation of guilable people in an emotional environment.

I think it is dangerous to insist that a 'personal relationship with God' is essential for salvation. As a result of hearing this week in week out all the good Christian disciplines I built in to my life (quiet times, church twice on a Sunday and once in the middle of the week, etc etc) were driven by guilt, and desperate attempts to get whatever this elusive personal telephone to Jesus was, rather than anything positive.

I am reminded of Jesus' explanation of His return in glory in Mt.25:31 and verse 37 specifically says, "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?'" These are people who sound a little surprised that their good works to the least of Jesus' brethren were accounted as done unto Jesus; that sense of surprise gives me a hint of people who have been faithfully doing the right thing, whether they "felt" it or not. Nothing wrong with feeling it - but that can't be the basis on which we do it. These people were definitely SAVED.

And yeah, sadly I think that *sometimes* (only occasionally, I hope) there are a bunch of gullible people being emotionally manipulated.

--------------------
Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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Jesus prayed 'Abba' (Dad) in the Lord's Prayer and in Gethsemane. He had a personal relationship with the Father by his very nature.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of sonship (adoption) enables us also to cry 'Abba' (Dad) when we address God. We are given a personal relationship with the Father.

Jesus said (following the Jewish truth) that we should "love the Lord our God with all our...heart..."

Jesus said, "I no longer call you servants, I have called you friends."


So.

We love God from the heart.
We call the Father 'Dad' (even if we call him Father)
We call Jesus our friend.

We pray individually, in secret, coming boldly to the throne of grace where we see our Father and our friend.

We might not seek an emotional relationship, but it sure is individual and personal.

And the wonderful thing is that we can experience this in the company of other children of God - that's what the church is for.

When we meet together for worship we come as a congregation - still with personal faith. But we can also meet with God 'privately', individually and with a depth of relationship that is heartfelt.

--------------------
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G.K. Chesterton

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12uthy
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quote:
Originally posted by St. Sebastian:
What are people talking about when they say you have to have a personal relationship with Christ? What are they talking about when they say they have one and how much strength and comfort they get from it? I honestly don't understand (thereby betraying that I don't have one, I suppose). I'm not comfortable with the "me and my 'ol pal, Jeeze" attitude. I can't really see God as a "pal" or even a friend. I'm in a very disconnected place right now, but even when I'm "connected" (meaning attending church regularly, praying regularly)I'm not sure I could say I have a personal relationship with Christ. Does that just mean feeling His Presence sometimes? I invariably feel joy when I receive the Holy Mysteries (sometimes for a second, sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes longer, but, so far, I never receive without feeling something). Does that count? I don't know if I have a personal relationship or not, because I don't know what people mean by the phrase. I gather that many or most consider it essential to salvation, which is a bit worrisome. Do you have one? How do you know? What do YOU mean by that?

IMHO I think it has much to do with what you take to the table rather than what you take from it.
You can look at it rather like a marriage, if you want to get married because you want that person to always be with you, then there is a question as to whether you truly love that person. On the other hand if you want to get married in order to make that person happy then you will be willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary to do so.
Of course there's nothing wrong in wanting both of these things but it generally takes time for one's true priorities to show through. If you want to make the marriage work long term you have to be willing to compromise your own will, for their sake.
If you want to have a relationship with God, you have to be willing to do some serious soul-searching. Ask yourself, what of my own attitudes and comforts am I willing to sacrifice in order to do what I percieve His will to be?

--------------------
Love 12uthy
(Romans 12:1) . . .present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason.. . .

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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There are some really interesting things being posted here and some of it, from my perspective, looks like differences we bring to the definitions (language is, at best, an approximation, and we work to make it as precise as possible - but English especially is a living breathing thing and adapts to changing conditions!). Fr'instance, hashing it out over the doorman, I guess I wouldn't call that a "personal relationship" so much as an "acquaintance" - unless it genuinely grew into something more: knowing his wife & kids' names, visiting if he's in the hospital, that kind of thing.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
I think you can know that a relationship is there, by faith, for example by knowing intellectually that God cares for you, without necessarily having an emotional experience of that relationship.
That's simply not what I call a personal relationship. It's a faith position, an axiom, even. Not a personal relationship. It's intellectual, as you say. Relationship is emotional.
As you say, I think there are different linguistic lexicons at work here (as well as loaded expectations), but I'm seeing both sides of this coin semi-simultaneously (kind of trippy, like a halibut with both eyes on the same side of its head). So, risking a flower-pot thrown at my head, I'd say "personal relationship" may simply be an unemotional description: I have a second cousin I've never met and while we have a family relationship there is no emotional content to it, "relationship" simply describes that the connection exists. So yes, one can argue that, by definition, God being a person and said Christian being a person and the transaction of the atonement having taken place and been received, they have a "personal relationship." That said, I don't believe that's the kind of relationship we're discussing here - this isn't really about the use of language.

I do wonder, Karl, how is it possible to be so sure that God doesn't talk back to you? (I think that was you) - Isn't it possible that the Aspergers impacts that, too...? just wondering.

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Nicodemia
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12uthy said

quote:
IMHO I think it has much to do with what you take to the table rather than what you take from it.
You can look at it rather like a marriage, if you want to get married because you want that person to always be with you, then there is a question as to whether you truly love that person. On the other hand if you want to get married in order to make that person happy then you will be willing to make the personal sacrifices necessary to do so.
Of course there's nothing wrong in wanting both of these things but it generally takes time for one's true priorities to show through. If you want to make the marriage work long term you have to be willing to compromise your own will, for their sake.
If you want to have a relationship with God, you have to be willing to do some serious soul-searching. Ask yourself, what of my own attitudes and comforts am I willing to sacrifice in order to do what I percieve His will to be?

Can I get this quite clear, 12uthy? Are you saying that because I don't have a warm, fuzzy, friendly, personal relationship with Jesus it is because I haven't sacrificed enough/prayed enough/done enough soul searching/am not willing???

Because if you are, then I am calling you to Hell. [Mad]

I thought this thread had at least established that we are all different and experience God in different, equally valid, ways?

(Even though at one time it looked like deteriorating into another Prof Kirke v Evo1 show! [Biased] }

Perhaps, 12uthy, you would care to revise what you wrote?

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The reason I'm wound up about this is that for feckin' years I believed my Christianity was desperately lacking, sub-standard, and possibly completely spurious because I didn't have this PRWG that everyone else raved about. Now I finally understand that the easiest thing to do is simply reject the concept for myself, because what it is possible to have with a non-tangible deity can never have anything to do with "personal relationship", with all the connotations that "personal relationship" has.

You know, I'd actually argue the opposite - not that your Christianity was substandard or lacking, but rather that your Christianity requires that you walk it out in a very pure form of faith, without the encouragement and consolation that some of us get from the "emotional experience" type of PRWG being discussed here. It's one thing for me to walk an obstacle course in the daylight and quite another for me to do it in the dark.

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St. Sebastian

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Just want to thank everyone for the discussion. It's been very helpful to me. I was equating "personal relationship" with "emotionally charged" or "emotionally fulfulling" relationship. I'm reassured that it doesn't have to be either (not that there's anything wrong with that)and whatever characterizes it for any individual won't necessarily be a consistent characteristic, though it may be predominant.

Thanks for your post, 12Ruthy. I didn't read it the way Nicomedia did, and it gives me something to think about (unless you meant it the way she read it [Biased] )

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adamant azzy
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Well.
No body has asked if the party of the second part wants to have this PRWHim. In any personal relationship something has to come from both sides. Mayhaps, is it possibls that one believes he has a PRWG but it is only his imagination as TPOTOP is not really a willing party?? Imagine a sinner like me claiming his personal attention. He will surely attend to me on the day of judgement. And it will only take a moment ( Thus a one moment long PRWG) for Him to send me to where I belong.
[Devil]

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....and I came back empty handed

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
I do wonder, Karl, how is it possible to be so sure that God doesn't talk back to you? (I think that was you) - Isn't it possible that the Aspergers impacts that, too...? just wondering.

How can I be sure that when I close my eyes I don't see Mickey Mouse? Because when I close my eyes I don't see Mickey Mouse, that's why. Maybe God does talk to Karl, but if Karl doesn't hear it, then it's just the same as God not talking to Karl, isn't it? Are you blaming Karl for not hearing God? That's kinda harsh, isn't it?

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Maybe God does talk to Karl, but if Karl doesn't hear it, then it's just the same as God not talking to Karl, isn't it? Are you blaming Karl for not hearing God? That's kinda harsh, isn't it?

That is certainly one way of looking at it. But my experience is that God has often spoken plainly to me and I have just not heard Him. Is reporting that experience a slam on Karl, or an observation on what it's like to be human?

--Tom Clune

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Psyduck

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TClune:
quote:
But my experience is that God has often spoken plainly to me and I have just not heard Him.
Isn't that rather like saying you've experienced not having an experience of God talking to you? Not nit-picking here, but this seems to fall in an area that gives me big problems with this kind of language.

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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Sometimes you find out later that you missed what was His voice.

Maybe you finally settle a problem after a long, hard struggle, only to find that you could have gotten through it much less tattered and torn --

If only you'd listened to that little nudging voice inside, telling you to do XYZ about it.

But nooooo, XYZ seemed too simplistic or embarrassing to do, you dismissed XYZ and went with your more logical-seeming option.

Sometimes, down the line, looking back with 20/20 hindsight, that XYZ option has a God-golden aura about it.

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Psyduck

Ship's vacant look
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I'm really surprised that nobody's mentioned Martin Buber here yet...

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Martin60
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I am going to HAVE to print this thread off.

And PRAY over it. Terribly sorry. A bit 'religious' I know!

I love you lot, I really do. I've been all of you so far I reckon. But it's getting better! It couldn't have got any worse!! Not with me managing to put one foot in front of another or ... breathe. I KNOW it will get bleak again, soon, it certainly has been a handful of days ago (uh OH! Loony alert.).

I've gotten VERY personal with God recently. Let the light expose every thing and acknowledge it. Every rotten, sick, squalid, evil thing. And now I'm perfect. HA! No, but now I DO have God the Psychoanalyst! A type of counsellor, no? I am AMAZED what temptation one can confront. Amazed.

And Karl, you are most poignant I gotta say it. Most. (And the Lady of the balcony - AWESOME, thank you, my dear unknown sister). INVOKE Him, Them Karl. It doesn't matter how you FEEL. Invoke Him. TELL Him. Them. The Persons of God. Jesus. Your BROTHER. TELL HIM.

You CAN'T do that in Church.

Yeah, yeah, I'm going thru a rebirth AGAIN, but I have NEVER been here before. This is a new, different, BETTER Heraclitean loop. The BEST yet. The best ever so far. I'm old and my marriage is in ruins and my mind is a plastic duck in a cess pit on the Somme during the Big Push so this is all probably a bi-polar episode BUT ... it's not Karl [Smile]

Is this cringingly personal enough?

(It certainly feels better than my grim Mr. Hyde persona on the Islamic threads.)

Start again Karl - get thee to an Alpha course or Taiz'e. Get down to a Christian bookshop and get an ABC book like 'What Do I Do Now?' by Harris & Pollard. PM me.

I'll take my medication now.

[ 12. November 2005, 18:48: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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Banner Lady
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Do I have a personal relationship with each member of the Trinity? Who do I pray to? It really helped me to discover that the Hebrew word of address "Ädonai" translates into "My Lords" plural, rather than "My Lord" singular. And no, I don't have a 'buddy' relationship with God. He is my teacher, my redeemer and my hope - I just enjoy spending every day in His university. But I DO know (totally without doubt) that He loves me. And I do my best, in a half-arsed human way, to reciprocate that love.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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Martin60
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BannerLady ... you don't KNOW how spooky that is.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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Bin a bit 'previous', me, Karl, my apologies. You're obviously NOT (after reading ALL the pages) as remote from God as I feared. Here comes the bi-polar downswing ... sigh. [Smile] 'sorlright, I'm not bipolar ... much (I can be a tad enthusiastic and a tad grim) but I too have had AS recently ascribed to me. With some justification ...

[ 12. November 2005, 19:07: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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Love wins

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Fauja

Lesser known misfit
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I've come in late on this discussion and I can't really be bothered to read all of this thread so far, though I'm sure some of it is kosher. Anyway, some thoughts entered my mind as I was scanning through. The first was a verse of scripture, "We know that we have come to know him (Jesus Christ) if we obey his commands." (1 John 2:3). The second was a memory of a preacher saying something along the lines of... "as with all relationships, communication is important to maintaining a healthy relationship. If you were married but didn't talk to your husband/wife for over a week and when you did, it was a pre-prepared script, it wouldn't take a marriage counsellor to figure out that you had a relationship problem".

I think there is some truth in both thoughts but I do think that the term 'Personal Relationship' can seem a bit strong or could imply something deeper and more intimate than is actually going on in the life of the person who claims to have one.

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Maybe God does talk to Karl, but if Karl doesn't hear it, then it's just the same as God not talking to Karl, isn't it? Are you blaming Karl for not hearing God? That's kinda harsh, isn't it?

First, please slow down! there is no blaming of Karl for not hearing God's voice - the question was even asked in the context of Aspergers (which I don't have, although a number of friends do), wondering if that may impact it. Second, while it may be functionally the same at the moment (Karl doesn't hear God's voice = God not talking to Karl), it isn't the same in reality. Of course, God being God, if He's speaking and Karl isn't hearing, God knows this. Perhaps what I'm pondering is the possibility that God is speaking to Karl in a way that Karl *will* hear but he hasn't yet associated with "the voice of God" - we are very much individuals and God works with us that way.

As Tom and Janine (and others?) have said, often in retrospect I look back and see that God was speaking to me in a certain situation and I didn't "get it", I just didn't hear it or recognize it. Biggest difference in my life and faith walk over these 30+ years is there's now a higher percentage of catching those things in the appropriate time frame (any of you remember the long-distance lag during phone calls in the pre-satellite connection days?) - it's like the delay has gone from days or weeks (even months, sometimes) down to minutes and hours - and often it's immediate.

The challenge here for me is that God *doesn't* always talk to me the same way (I suppose I'd try to put Him in a box, if He did - and He's way too big for that) - and I don't want to miss His voice, whether it's that subtle sense of pressure inside my head or an image or words or a sudden conviction - but, because I'm fallen and human and self-serving in my very nature, I have to test those things and make sure I'm not listening to "the wrong voice."

So maybe it's better to encourage Karl to consider his expectations (what would God talking back look like, or sound like) and then look outside those expectations - he may be getting feedback he has yet to recognize as feedback. God is very subtle (He has to be, for us to have any freewill in the matter); I think of 1 Kings 19:12.

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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651

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quote:
Originally posted by adamant azzy:
Well. No body has asked if the party of the second part wants to have this PRWHim.

He's the one who initiated the relationship, Azzy, and He doesn't start things He doesn't finish (unlike me... *sigh*).

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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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