Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Can I get this quite clear, 12uthy? Are you saying that because I don't have a warm, fuzzy, friendly, personal relationship with Jesus it is because I haven't sacrificed enough/prayed enough/done enough soul searching/am not willing???

Because if you are, then I am calling you to Hell.

I thought this thread had at least established that we are all different and experience God in different, equally valid, ways?

(Even though at one time it looked like deteriorating into another Prof Kirke v Evo1 show! }

Perhaps, 12uthy, you would care to revise what you wrote?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
Look. I've spoken to my mailman. She is a person. I am a person. I have a relationship with her because we relate in that she brings my mail, and I say hello sometimes if I happen to see her. Relationship that is personal. Here, personal means "involving a person or persons". I do NOT, however, have a "personal relationship" with her. If someone asked me "Do you have a personal relationship with your mail carrier?" they would not be asking if my mail carrier is a person, and if I relate to her occasionally. They would be asking if I have a close, well-known relationship with her or not. Personal means close and intimate on some level.

---

It so happens I have exactly this relationship with my postman, I would say I did have a peronal relationship with him. If someone asked me if I had a personal relationship with him, I'd give them the courtesy of not assuming they meant a close personal relationship, I'd probably suspect they were asking if I dealt directly with them or had one of my staff collect the mail.

You seem to be trying to tell me that I do not have a personal relationship with my postman here - something you had recently promised to defend me against?

I think what we have here is the "boyfriend" dilemma. I say to my daughter, "didn't one of your boy friends give you that birthday card?" to which she replies, "he's not my boyfriend". "But he's a boy and he's your friend?" "Yes".

By now, although I'd say not off the point, but going around in circles so I'll leave you to it.

--------------------
Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus

Posted                         

quote:

---

If we really want a personal relationship with God, he is right there for us, but we all (including me) have to shed our own demands of what we want out of him in order to see through the PR image. That takes time and effort on our part. It requires incessant prayer in faith.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

He's the one who initiated the relationship, Azzy, and He doesn't

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by 12uthy:
The fact is that religion often gets between man and his creator. This is because religion sees itself as a kind of PR firm representing God, and the image that they put forward for God is not always a very accurate one. Often they try to lop off the bits that they see as unattractive, because it's not good for the image they want portray.
But God is still God.
The question is do we really want to see him for what he really is or do we want to buy into the image, because that's what we want God to be like.
If we really want a personal relationship with God, he is right there for us, but we all (including me) have to shed our own demands of what we want out of him in order to see through the PR image. That takes time and effort on our part. It requires incessant prayer in faith.

Some people don't have a relationship with God because they haven't yet seen behind their preconceived concepts of who he is, some prefer to have a relationship with the "religion" they can see and feel while others don't want to get to know him personally, because they only want a God when things are going wrong for them.
If all they want is for him to be there for them when they need to feel loved, then they'd better get a dog!

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicodemia:
12uthy posted

quote:

---

If we really want a personal relationship with God, he is right there for us, but we all (including me) have to shed our own demands of what we want out of him in order to see through the PR image. That takes time and effort on our part. It requires incessant prayer in faith.

---

I still think you are saying its MY fault I don't have this "personal relationship" thing; that I haven't taken enough time or effort or prayed enough. But I can't be bothered to call you to Hell about it.

I've had all this said to me time and again by my Charismatic/fundie friends, but nothing I do, or don't do helps. Maybe its an inherent fault in my psychological make-up. Maybe its something to do with the fact I just cannot believe God loves me, as an individual. As a member of humanity, yes, as me, no.

So I'll leave it at that. I'll worship him, pray to him, sing, dance and whatever in his honour, thank him constantly, and one day, perhaps, just maybe, I'll get what you are all on about!!

---

quote:

---

29 Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Father’s [knowledge].

---

quote:

---

. . .Therefore, that I might not feel overly exalted, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, an angel of Satan, to keep slapping me, that I might not be overly exalted. 8 In this behalf I three times entreated the Lord that it might depart from me; 9 and yet he really said to me: “My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness. . .

---

quote:

---

3 If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand? 4 For there is the [true] forgiveness with you, In order that you may be feared.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
It so happens I have exactly this relationship with my postman, I would say I did have a peronal relationship with him. If someone asked me if I had a personal relationship with him, I'd give them the courtesy of not assuming they meant a close personal relationship, I'd probably suspect they were asking if I dealt directly with them or had one of my staff collect the mail.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Just coming back to this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
Is there a difference between a 'personal relationship with God' and a 'personal relationship with Christ'?

---

This is one thing that always worried me slightly, looking back, at my life B.P. [before the Plot ™ ]. Perhaps it's projection, perhaps it was just me, but God equalled Jesus alone in my mind, and perhaps this is what gets my back up when I hear the term 'personal relationship with Christ'. Whenever I thought of God, Jesus was it -- the Father and the Holy Spirit were very much in the background.

For those who have and rejoice in a personal relationship with Christ as is being described by Evo, LutheranChik and others..., is this relationship different to your relationship with the other members of the Trinity? Can one have a personal relationship with the Father? with the Holy Spirit? Or does the incarnation of the the Son of God allow a different form of relationship?

[I hope you can understand what I'm asking!]

Thanks,
Ian.

---

quote:

---

Quote by Teufelchen
{Jesus} although he be God and man: yet he is not two, but is one Christ: One, however, not by conversion of Godhead into flesh: but by taking manhood into God

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

These are people who sound a little surprised that their good works to the least of Jesus' brethren were accounted as done unto Jesus; that sense of surprise gives me a hint of people who have been faithfully doing the right thing, whether they "felt" it or not. Nothing wrong with feeling it - but that can't be the basis on which we do it. These people were definitely SAVED.

---

quote:

---

...religion often gets between man and his creator. This is because religion sees itself as a kind of PR firm representing God, and the image that they put forward for God is not always a very accurate one. Often they try to lop off the bits that they see as unattractive, because it's not good for the image they want portray.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by (gracia):
...I believe some who do have a PRWJ, see themselves as doubting Thomases, not taking much on faith, needing to touch, see, experience before they believe. And Jesus said to Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed". (A bit of chastisement to the doubters and experience-learners, to be sure).

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:

I think the point of this thread, or at least where the point has been driven, is that PRWJ in this sense is somewhat meaningless. I do believe that many who are living in God's will may not have any generally associated feelings to go along with it.

---

quote:

---

Someone asked how many friends you have that you don't consider to be "personal relationships." I think we would all answer, "none." But how many friends do you have that never talk to you or respond to you? What if I told you that some guy named Jim Bubkins has been talking to you for years, and trying to respond to all of your questions, but you've just never noticed him--would you consider him to be a personal friend then, after I told you and assured you that he was? I'd think probably not.

That, in my estimation, is the problem with the concept of personal relationship. It's, well, personal.

-Digory [/QB]

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by adamant azzy:
If this so called PWRG was so real there would no thread arguing at length the reality or otherwise of its existance. No thread to be seen any where re: " ...if you touch a pan of boiling water it burns your fingers.. or it doesn't.."

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
I think what we have here is the "boyfriend" dilemma. I say to my daughter, "didn't one of your boy friends give you that birthday card?" to which she replies, "he's not my boyfriend". "But he's a boy and he's your friend?" "Yes".

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Assume that the majority of people were colour blind, but enough people could see colours for us to have the words for the different colours. Now, the colour blind people could argue with good reason that colours weren't 'real' - for starters, they can't see them; more tellingly, specific words are used for each colour despite there being no boundaries in the light waves. Would you argue in those circumstances that colours weren't 'real'? If so, you're being consistent in your use of language, so fair enough in saying PRWG isn't real. If you would say that colours were real, what do you see as being the difference?

---

It's a good analogy. What is 'real' is that although there are no boundaries in light waves, there are wavelength differences! To see a difference in color between two things is to have a subjective experience that does correspond to some objective feature of the external world.

I think to use 'unreal' to discribe any subjective experience regardless of what external reality has caused it is not a practical use of 'real'. If I trip over something I think the pain in my toe is very real, thank you very much.

If by 'unreal' you mean generated by ones own nervous system rather than an external reality then of course there are many who 'rationally' think all religious experience falls into this category as a matter of course, and I dissagree with them.

CS Lewis said that Christianity was a bit like sex - and I think that's a much better analogy than colours. People do have quite a wide individual experience of sensations, and the sensations have no bearing on the fertility. As CSL said:

quote:

---

And of course the presence of God is not the same as the sense of the presence of God. The latter may be due to imagination... ...It is the actual presence, not the sensation of the presence of the Holy Ghost which begets Christ in us. The sense of the presence is a super-added gift for which we give thanks when it comes and that's about it.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
It looks obvious to me that you are trying to heavy handedly tell me what I should and should not understand of something which to me seems like plain English.

Sorry, I'm bored of this.

Love,

Evo1

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Unless I've missed something, nobody has yet made the point that to speak of a "personal relationship with God/Jesus" is a uniquely modern thing to say. Modern, that is, in the sense (roughly speaking) of the period after Descartes and before Wittgenstein. Now, I'm not saying that the phrase would have been greeted with utter incomprehension before Descartes, but it would certainly have meant something very different from what I think is being put forward here.

I think to the Western medieval mind, the relationship with God was analogous to the relationship between a serf and his lord: God was to the world what the lord of the manor was to the village. The individual owed God loyalty and obedience (the Middle English meanings of "belief") and God, in return, gave protection. And I think it's important to note that this was not a one-to-one or "personal" relationship - it was the village community that owed allegiance to its lord, so it was the Church that had a relationship with God. This should be clear from the "rights" that lords had to punish whole communities for the transgressions of individuals.

Similarly, after Wittgenstein, the first question that has to arise is, what language game (in the technical sense) are you playing when you claim friendship (or some other personal relationship) with a "person" who has no physical existence? How is it, for instance, that I can use the same language to describe my "relationships" with someone who is my tennis partner; Mr Spanners, my imaginary friend; and God?

The point is that talk of personal relationships is far from unproblematic either theologically, philosophically, or semantically. And simply to dismiss these problems with the answer that Jesus makes me feel all warm inside, just won't do.

---

Adeodatus, you speak a lot of sense here, and its understandable too!!

I must have a medieval mindset, because the idea of an analogy between the Lord of the manor and God explains what I feel - I am a member of a church, God loves me as a member of the church and humanity, and my relationship with him is one of awe, worship, gratitude, loyalty, and fear. No 'personal' relationship - I am a mere serf; no warm 'buddy' feelings, I wouldn't dare to presume; no warm love fuzzies - who do I think I am??

I'll get a clean wimple out.

Posted                       

quote:

---

OP'd by White laughter........ Assume that the majority of people were colour blind, but enough people could see colours for us to have the words for the different colours. Now, the colour blind people could argue with good reason that colours weren't 'real' - for starters, they can't see them; more tellingly, specific words are used for each colour despite there being no boundaries in the light waves. Would you argue in those circumstances that colours weren't 'real'? If so, you're being consistent in your use of language, so fair enough in saying PRWG isn't real. If you would say that colours were real, what do you see as being the difference

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by me:
The fact that most people would consider "personal relationship" to mean "close" already, especially when referring to God, is a side argument.

-Digory

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Adeodatus wrote:

I think to the Western medieval mind, the relationship with God was analogous to the relationship between a serf and his lord: God was to the world what the lord of the manor was to the village.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Unless I've missed something, nobody has yet made the point that to speak of a "personal relationship with God/Jesus" is a uniquely modern thing to say.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by adamant azzy:

It always surprises me that religious people have this naive desire to show that they can "prove" the existance of .... any number of things whatever... If one day I revert from atheism to some religion, I would simply say "thanks but no thanks" to any attempt at getting me to argue the veracity of my beleif.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
To be honest, though, I think the terminology is better off junked, not least because the model of 'personal relationships' which seems to be operative most of the time in its use strikes me as pretty unhealthy.

---

Yes, but you make this remark without having the experience all the lovey-dovey feelings of those believe that they a "personal relationship" with God.

So, unless you know what they are feeling and how they are communing with God - your observations remain incomplete from a lack of personal experience.

I'm just posing as the devil's <hem> I mean God's advocate.

I personally cannot call what is between me and God a "personal relationship" - it would feel too (to be honest) daft and a bit stiffling. God is God. I kind of like Him/Her. I don't know what to call that yet.

--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I personally cannot call what is between me and God a "personal relationship" - it would feel too (to be honest) daft and a bit stiffling. God is God. I kind of like Him/Her. I don't know what to call that yet.

---

"Unknowingness" is of great value; don't be too quick to shed it.

It's this kind of honesty and personal identity that should be uplifted in this thread, in my opinion. What you say about your relationship with God is the most true thing that can be said about it, and no one else can tell you otherwise.

-Digory

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:


So, unless you know what they are feeling and how they are communing with God - your observations remain incomplete from a lack of personal experience.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
One of the key things about human interpersonal relationships is that they involve bodies.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I can sit and talk to a wall for a whole month, but that doesn't mean I have a Personal Relationship with it...

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by adamant azzy:
If only a few people could see (a/any) color they could very easily demonstrate by simple, understandable and repeatable experiments that they had this facility.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
I retain my right to disbelieve people who say they have had an experience they cannot in any way make intelligible to me...

I'm also a little uncomfortable about the 'experience fundamentalism' in some parts of the Church. In the same way that a proof text trumps all argument for a 'real' fundamentalist, for these people an appeal to 'my experience' means my favoured assertions are immune from scrutiny. Almost as if Marx, Freud and a large number of 20th century philosophers had never put pen to paper, it is assumed that our experience cannot deceive us, that we don't come to 'our experience' with prejudices and that we are transparent to ourselves.

---

quote:

---

Also could we clarify what we're talking about on this thread. Are we talking about a personal relationship with 'God'? Or with Jesus qua human being? I have even more problems with the idea of having a personal relationship with God, as such, than I do with having one with Jesus. God is not a person, in the everyday sense of the word.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
Perhaps the wall is trying to talk to you, Marvin, and you just simply cannot hear it. After all, a person made that wall, and you're a person, and you are sitting in relation to the wall, so you have a relationship with it.

I think you have a personal relationship with the wall, and you just don't realize it.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I can sit and talk to a wall for a whole month, but that doesn't mean I have a Personal Relationship with it...

---

Perhaps the wall is trying to talk to you, Marvin, and you just simply cannot hear it. After all, a person made that wall, and you're a person, and you are sitting in relation to the wall, so you have a relationship with it.

I think you have a personal relationship with the wall, and you just don't realize it.

-Digory

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Are you really likening prayer to talking to a wall - thats to PK and Martin?

If so, I assume neither of you do engage in prayer.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
However I seem to remember a whole stream of Psalms which complain that God isn't listening, so maybe it's not just me.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evo1:
I find this line of thought fairly disrespetful actually.

Are you really likening prayer to talking to a wall - thats to PK and Martin?

If so, I assume neither of you do engage in prayer.

If not, what on earth is this about?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
I suspect Martin is not talking about *prayer* so much as the lack of feedback which makes him reluctant to call it a PRWG

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by professorkirke:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I can sit and talk to a wall for a whole month, but that doesn't mean I have a Personal Relationship with it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps the wall is trying to talk to you, Marvin, and you just simply cannot hear it. After all, a person made that wall, and you're a person, and you are sitting in relation to the wall, so you have a relationship with it.

I think you have a personal relationship with the wall, and you just don't realize it.

-Digory
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find this line of thought fairly disrespetful actually.

Are you really likening prayer to talking to a wall - thats to PK and Martin?

If so, I assume neither of you do engage in prayer.

If not, what on earth is this about?

---

Professor Kirke -

Evo1 - talking to a wall is exactly what prayer feels like for me most of the time. Doesn't mean to say I don't do it, though. I'm hoping one day the wall will fall down and All Will Be Revealed.

Could you just try to understand that we are not all the same, and those of us that are different are not necessarily deficient?

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You can hear it from me. Prayer is exactly like talking to a wall, except that I [i]know[/]i the wall doesn't hear me. I can hope that God can. But there's no more feedback than there is from a wall, not really.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Could you just try to understand that we are not all the same, and those of us that are different are not necessarily deficient?

---