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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Personal Relationship with Christ? Huh?
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You can hear it from me. Prayer is exactly like talking to a wall, except that I know the wall doesn't hear me. I can hope that God can. But there's no more feedback than there is from a wall, not really.
I know we seem to struggle with common English definitions but jst to point out that in my world, if something is exactly like something else, there are no exceptions. Though I do accept we are all different.
Let me say it then. Prayer is exactly like talking to a wall in every way except one. The one way that it is not like talking to a wall is that I can hope that perhaps somebody is listening when I pray.
Then again, I suppose I can hope that someone is listening when talking to the wall...
Maybe I do have a PRWW...hmm...
-Digory
[ 16. November 2005, 12:48: Message edited by: professorkirke ]
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Superslug
Shipmate
# 7024
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Posted
Digory,
Here you go, some liturgy for you all the other wall worshippers out there.
Our Wall which art out back
Hallowed be thy brick
Thy back yard come
Thy repointing done
In cement as it is next door
Give us today our daily shade
Forgive us our climbing over
As we forgive those who trespass in our yard
Lead us not to kick footballs against you
But deliver us from fences
Yours be the flower box and the boundary line
For ever and ever Amen
SS
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I was 'educated' in the UK in the 70s and early 80s. Therefore, please feel free to correct my grammar and punctuation. I need to know!
Posts: 464 | From: Hessle, East Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
Very droll
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Superslug:
Digory,
Here you go, some liturgy for you all the other wall worshippers out there.
Our Wall which art out back
Hallowed be thy brick
Thy back yard come
Thy repointing done
In cement as it is next door
Give us today our daily shade
Forgive us our climbing over
As we forgive those who trespass in our yard
Lead us not to kick footballs against you
But deliver us from fences
Yours be the flower box and the boundary line
For ever and ever Amen
SS
That's going straight into my personal catechism. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Could you just try to understand that we are not all the same, and those of us that are different are not necessarily deficient?
I get tired of saying this, I have only ever said the opposite of what you are accusing me of. My posts are all here, perhaps you'd like top point me out saying what you are unfairly acusing me of.
Thanks,
Evo1
Well, when you post stuff like: quote:
Are you really likening prayer to talking to a wall - thats to PK and Martin?
If so, I assume neither of you do engage in prayer.
it does suggest to me that Nicodemia is right. The leap from: "Prayer for me is like talking to a wall" to: "Aha! It's clear you don't pray" is not an obvious one to me. The fact that you can say stuff like that does suggest to me that you don't really appreciate that people have different experiences, let alone value those whose experiences are different from your own. But that's only my perception of what you have written; I may well be wrong.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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cocktailgirl
mixer of the drinks
# 8684
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Posted
The hardest times to keep praying are those when it feels like there's no one there. That, to me, is the true test of faith. I take my biretta off to those whose experience is always that. Telling people that isn't prayer shows a parlously shallow understanding of what prayer is. All IMHO, of course.
Posts: 841 | From: in hac lacrimarum valle, propping up the bar | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Evo1 - talking to a wall is exactly what prayer feels like for me most of the time. Doesn't mean to say I don't do it, though. I'm hoping one day the wall will fall down and All Will Be Revealed. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Could you just try to understand that we are not all the same, and those of us that are different are not necessarily deficient?
A good friend at church feels this way and is greatly discouraged by the lack of *a sense* of PRWG - and yet, at the same time, this man has prayed for me and I have seen the Holy Spirit working through him, giving him insights that are not simply his, as a fellow human, but clearly (to me, at least) Divine - but he FEELS nothing. I encourage him, to the degree that saying, "I hear God speaking to me through you when you pray for me," may encourage him - but I fear this is a place where the general sense of our parish ("everybody can hear God, everybody can have a PRWG") ends up discouraging him.
I wish I could make it be different but clearly I cannot; I assume if God wanted it to be different, it WOULD be different - therefore God is working through this man in such a way that this man cannot feel it. I believe it takes huge faith to continue to serve, to pray, to love with so little feedback, and I have great admiration for those of you who do just that - I trust that great will be your riches in heaven, because you're operating in that "blessed are they who believe without seeing" arena - "blessed are they who pray and serve without warm fuzzies."
And, SS, I love the prayer to the wall!
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
The leap from: "Prayer for me is like talking to a wall" to: "Aha! It's clear you don't pray" is not an obvious one to me.
Same here. Like you, I found this to be not a little condescending and in the "you must have experiences like mine to be a genuine Christian" vein.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Same here. Like you, I found this to be not a little condescending and in the "you must have experiences like mine to be a genuine Christian" vein.
Then you must be fairly proficient at the words in mouths thingy that goes on so often here.
Saying that prayer can be like talking to a wall - yes, I've experienced this too - is a far cry from saying that it is actually talking to a wall. That's what I found insulting. (Since most have actually agreed that it is not exactly like talking to a wall, I think I can validly assume that this is not what people posting believe).
Whether it be due to a PWRG or just a belief that someone/thing may be listening.
I was insulted by the tone of the post (Digory's especially which was just poking fun at the idea that anyone might actually be listening.
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
So why then leap to the assumption that PK and Martin don't pray? That leap is the bit I think many of us found insulting; saying to someone, "I don't like the image you used," isn't.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
Saying that prayer can be like talking to a wall - yes, I've experienced this too - is a far cry from saying that it is actually talking to a wall. That's what I found insulting. (Since most have actually agreed that it is not exactly like talking to a wall, I think I can validly assume that this is not what people posting believe).
Except nobody said that, and you indeed were getting nasty about people saying it was LIKE talking to the wall, as your own words prove:
quote:
Are you really likening prayer to talking to a wall - thats to PK and Martin?
If so, I assume neither of you do engage in prayer.
They were, on your own witness, LIKENING prayer to talking to a wall, i.e. saying it was LIKE that. That was indeed what got your dander up and made you insult them. Don't go changing your story now; anybody capable of scrolling up can see what actually took place.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
(Digory's especially which was just poking fun at the idea that anyone might actually be listening.
I thought Digory was poking fun at the semantic discussion about "personal," "relationship," and "personal relationship." And not making any comment about whether in prayer to God anyone is listening or not.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
(Digory's especially which was just poking fun at the idea that anyone might actually be listening.
I thought Digory was poking fun at the semantic discussion about "personal," "relationship," and "personal relationship." And not making any comment about whether in prayer to God anyone is listening or not.
That is how I read that post, also. As Digory says in another post that he hopes there is someone hearing his prayers, I assume he doesn't find it jibeworthy when others have the same hope (let alone some kind of assurance).
Badly misread, Evo1.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
I suspect Martin is not talking about *prayer* so much as the lack of feedback which makes him reluctant to call it a PRWG
I'd rather hear it from them all the same.
That's exactly what I meant. Without any response, there is no Personal Relationship. However many times someone assures me that there's someone on the other side of the wall who's listening and who cares, for all I can tell there is only me and the wall.
I kept speaking to the wall for a long time, hoping to hear a sign of life on the other side. I'm still hoping that someone's there. Maybe they've walked away to do something else. Maybe they're just listening without answer. But I came to the realisation that all I was achieving by staying with the wall was to get more and more frustrated, and more and more angry with whoever was (hopefully!) on the other side.
So for the sake of my sanity - and any potential relationship with the unknown person who might be on the other side - I walked away. I made sure to tell the wall that I was walking away (and why), just in case someone else was there. I didn't want them to wonder what had happened to me.
I still pop back to the wall occasionally, just to shout a greeting over it. My visits are getting more and more sporadic every year, because I've stopped expecting to hear a reply, but the hope remains. The hope that one day I'll stroll up, say "Hi, anyone there?", and hear "Hi there Marv, how are you?" come floating back.
I have no idea what I'll do if and when that day comes. Die of shock in all likelihood. But it'll probably be one of the happiest days of my goddamn life.
And until it happens I don't have a Personal Relationship. All I have is myself, the wall, and a tiny bit of hope that just won't go away.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Oh, and would it kill ya to stop calling me Martin? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
[ 17. November 2005, 12:05: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Same here. Like you, I found this to be not a little condescending and in the "you must have experiences like mine to be a genuine Christian" vein.
Then you must be fairly proficient at the words in mouths thingy that goes on so often here.
Saying that prayer can be like talking to a wall - yes, I've experienced this too - is a far cry from saying that it is actually talking to a wall. That's what I found insulting. (Since most have actually agreed that it is not exactly like talking to a wall, I think I can validly assume that this is not what people posting believe).
Whether it be due to a PWRG or just a belief that someone/thing may be listening.
I was insulted by the tone of the post (Digory's especially which was just poking fun at the idea that anyone might actually be listening.
I think enough has been said about this post in general. I'm not even exactly sure which post the last line is referring to, but rest assured that I do not poke fun at people for any type of spiritual discipline. Humor, it's my hope, is a way for us to release some of our mutual frustrations with these disciplines. I think enough people appreciated that aspect of my line of posts to show that the offense you took, Evo, may have been misplaced.
Still, apologies if I've insulted you unintentionally.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
So Evi-l, having got all of that cleared up, maybe you could tell us why you assumed that "PK and Martin" don't pray? Enquiring minds, and all that.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
Can we get back to the discussion? This page simply reads like sniping and border line personal attack.
And everyone - the guidelines here in Purgatory talk about courtesy in debate. Part of that involves getting screen names right and not mangling them to make a point. The latter borders on personal attack.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Aplogies DS - I had got confused, and thought this thread was in Hell.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
An apology to me would not go amiss either Wanderer.
Though at least it does clear up one thing, I think someone claimed I had misread the tone of these posts by taking offence, I don't think I did.
Marvin - I'm sorry for getting your name wrong, I was actually getting you confused with Martin who had posted earlier.
To those who have suggested that I accused Marvin and Digory of not praying and such like, I'm sure it's obvious that I never did that. I was reacting to the direct (no exceptions) comparison of prayer to talking to a wall. I think just about everyone here has qualified this with exceptions, I think it's pretty obvious that any such accusation is invalid.
To clarify, I would not suggest that by definition you cannot have a personal relationship with a wall - hence why I took exception to the suggestion.
[Nevertheless, I still liked the wall prayer]
Now, I think I've said enough on this thread - it all seems to have got pretty cold. If my forceful debating style has upset anyone, I'm sorry about that but I would hope I should never resort to name calling.
Love,
Evo1
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Me:
To clarify, I would not suggest that by definition you cannot have a personal relationship with a wall - hence why I took exception to the suggestion.
D'oh,
What I meant was "I would not suggest that by definition you can have a personal relationship with a wall"
Love,
Evo1
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Evo1, I should not have made fun of your name in Purgatory. I had got confused as to the location of this thread, and therefore I have apologised to the Hosts. I'm not sure what I need to apologise to you for; your recent statement: quote:
To those who have suggested that I accused Marvin and Digory of not praying and such like, I'm sure it's obvious that I never did that.
seems to me to be in clear contradiction to: quote:
Are you really likening prayer to talking to a wall - thats to PK and Martin?
If so, I assume neither of you do engage in prayer.
I am finding it hard to follow your chain of thought when you refuse to stand by your own words. However, I do not want to descend to petty sniping in Purgatory, and I fear I have said too much already.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
Well it was my name you made fun of, but suit yourself.
I don't have anything further to add here, just to say there is a difference between:
"If so, I assume neither of you do engage in prayer."
And
"I assume neither of you do engage in prayer."
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
I apologize for my contributions to the derailing of this thread.
I have started one in Hell to (hopefully) avoid future issues of this kind.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I have read all 6 pages of this thread and have lost and then regained the will to live numerous times throughout the experience.
At the end of it all, I have gained a bit of insight into what people are actually talking about when they speak of a "personal relationship with God".
To my knowledge, I have neither Asperger Syndrome nor autism. However, like many here, the language and concept of a personal relationship with God has always been a foreign one, not just in the sense that the concept doesn't fit into my experience of God but that I just could never imagine what people could possibly mean by it. For me, God is eternal, magnificent, omnipotent and transcendent. However, he condescedns and comes to us in worship, in the Sacraments and in our sacramental life in the Church. I wouldn't describe that as a personal relationship, but that doesn't diminish its value.
During my Anglican days, I visited other parishes that used songs much like the one that Nicodemia quoted earlier, and which to me, sounded as though they were describing a sort of "Jesus is My Little Pony" approach to the Faith, which I could never surmount.
Much of what has been said here has made me realise that this is not what everyone means when they talk about a PRWG, and I'm grateful for their patient explanations and for the insight.
However, there are things that others have said which, if I'm honest, have merely served to convince me that this approach is alive and kicking, and that what some people describe as a PRWG is very much along the lines of my perceptions in visiting those other parishes mentioned above. That isn't intended to cause offence but merely as an honest expression of what I perceive is being said and done. I am open to the idea that not everybody experiences God in the same way and I have seen evidence of this. Most of the time, even if I don't share the experience, I can understand it. It is this last step that I find myself unable to make with respect to this particular understanding of a PRWG.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Back-to-front, whatever misunderstandings there have been along the way I think we can agree that no two people are identical, we all experience God in different ways, and it is dangerous to insist on any type of experience as being essential for all. At its best this thread has been a useful reminder of diversity.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
I am open to the idea that not everybody experiences God in the same way and I have seen evidence of this. Most of the time, even if I don't share the experience, I can understand it. It is this last step that I find myself unable to make with respect to this particular understanding of a PRWG.
Yup - God is very big and He really seems to like variety. Flowers, insects, birds, humans, how to interact with humans...
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
I wonder, do we pursue an understanding of Christ in order to become more Christ-like or do we become Christ-like in order to understand Christ more? What is the main purpose of a relationship with God anyway?
Much of this thread so far as been a discussion about what is often meant by the term PRWC/G but I'm sure that most posters are agreed that prayer and an understanding of the person(s) of God are essential whatever terminolgy we prefer to use with regard to how we have some connection with God.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Back-to-front, whatever misunderstandings there have been along the way I think we can agree that no two people are identical, we all experience God in different ways, and it is dangerous to insist on any type of experience as being essential for all. At its best this thread has been a useful reminder of diversity.
Precisely, which is why it's really irritating when people do what soemone did in response to me some time ago. I posted that I don't consider myself to have a "personal relationship with God", and someone quoted me and posted, simply using the ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) smiley.
The arrogance of this was unbelievable.
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I posted that I don't consider myself to have a "personal relationship with God", and someone quoted me and posted, simply using the smiley.
The arrogance of this was unbelievable.
Excellent, I shall store that up in my arsenal!
[Oh, I'm only kidding ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ]
[ 19. November 2005, 15:03: Message edited by: Evo1 ]
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Weed
Shipmate
# 4402
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Posted
I am fascinated by the current work on neuroscience and religion. Through the work of people such as Andrew Newberg we now know something of what is happening during the brain during religious experiences and it appears that several different parts of the brain are implicated.
There's a quick introduction to his work on the Questions and Answers page on his website. Even more useful if you have time to listen is a lecture he gave on this area. To see/hear it, go to the Meta-Library, click on Psychology and Neuroscience and then on A Neuropsychological Analysis of Relgious Experience where the audio-visual lecture will load and begin to play.
The significance of such work is that we are talking about people having different experiences not because of wilfulness or personal preference but because their brains work differently. Asperger's Syndrome has already mentioned but it's tempting for those of us who don't have it to think that that's very much an exception. What we see from Dr Newberg's work is that whilst some people may have subjective personal experiences of God, to others liturgy is the way that they make the connection and that that is determined by the way their brain is wired.
This, it seems to me, has enormous implications for the way different groups of Christians regard each other that they haven't even begun to grasp yet, as this thread has shown. It's all very well making statements as to the superiority of one form of experience, whether it is corporate ritual or a PRWG, but if being born with an inclination to one or the other is what determines our experience then the objective superiority that some claim for their own subjective experience may need to be questioned.
I would raise a further issue. Perhaps the reason that church attendance is so low in western Europe at the moment stems from the same neurological roots. Maybe there is only ever going to be a small percentage of the population whose brains are capable of experiencing a PRWG, or who will meet him through ritual, or through meditation or prayer. I have a sneaking suspicion that St Paul's illustrations of the different parts of the body making up a whole, or many gifts but one spirit, need looking at in a new light. Maybe there are some people who will never have a direct experience of the divine because their brains don't work that way and who will only ever connect with God through doing things for other people, and maybe, sheep and goats, that is just as pleasing to God.
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Weed
Posts: 519 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Is this the idea that religious experience is caused by frontal lobe epilepsy? I don't know much about it, but it's very popular in these parts.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Weed
Shipmate
# 4402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Is this the idea that religious experience is caused by frontal lobe epilepsy? I don't know much about it, but it's very popular in these parts.
Could I refer you the Q&A page where he addresses this? I'm only a layperson and if I try to put it into my own words I may well distort what he is saying. If you are concerned that he may be dismissive of religion as some neuroscientists are, he isn't.
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Weed
Posts: 519 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
A thought: is there maybe an underlying assumption in all of this about an essential symmetry on both sides of a "personal relationship"? I get the impression that one of the things that seems to be assumed by both those who accept such a thing and those who reject it is that a "PRWG" is something with a person on both ends - albeit that one of them is the person who happens to be God.
Does a "personal relationship with God" necessarily presuppose a personal relationship with a person who happens to be God? Is it possible to understand a PRWG as being a complete personal engagement on my side of it with the reality (or otherwise) of God as this confronts me - even if it confronts me as a brick wall? Is it possible to have a personal relationship with a brick wall?
I remember going to Center Parks at Sherwood Forest with my family some years ago. We'd expected a quiet country break - which was daft because we lived in the deep countryside, and what we got was hundreds of people enjoying an urban-friendly version of the countryside. But it was good. On the Sunday I went to the small chapel on the site for the service, and went back to sketch it - because something had struck me about it.
It was very plain, with a breeze-block wall behind the communion table and the lectionary. On the wall, there were two sets of symbols - a big crucifix, and lettering: "Trust in my mercy and my love". But as I sat in the almost-silence, and listened to people passing by outside, lots of them presumably there to get away from real worries or difficulties, it occurred to me that actually there were three sets of symbols facing me. There was also the brick wall. And I would guess that that was maybe the most potent symbol of what many people there that weekend, whether they came to worship or not, were actually facing in their lives.
And the point was that that brck wall was interpreted by the lettering - which people in extremis might or might not be able to believe and trust - but there was also the crucifix. And possibly that symbol-set contained enough to engage somebody with the conviction that "Somehow, there's (a) God in all this..."
It seems to me that for someone to encounter this set of symbols and engage with it as potential truth is certainly what I'd call a "personal relationship." And it doesn't involve the potentially stultifying sense of a "person" on the other side. God is much more than that. But it does, perhaps need to evoke a personal response in us, addressed out even into the void, which addresses this different reality at the heart of our reality, as - in Martin Buber's way of putting it - "Thou".
For me, the touchstone of a personal relationship is when it switches from "I-it" to "I-Thou". It doesn't seem to me to necessitate "a person" on the other side of the relationship for this to be able to happen. What is necessary is a sense of being confronted, and of my personal response, couched in the second person.
There are good grounds - Ian Ramsey, sometime Bishop of Durham and but-kickingly fine philosopher arged it in a paper in H H Farmer's Festschrift - for holding that talk of a "perosnal God" grew up in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries as part of an attack on Trinitarian thought. Something got us thinking about God as a super-bloke, a super-person; and I never cease to wonder at how starting to talk Trinitarian-ly with a confirmation class shifts them instantly light-years from God-the-bearded-bloke-in-the-sky. Maybe we coud drop the "personal", and concentrate on relationships that don't depend on me on one side talking to somebody like me, but whose job is being God, on the other.
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[ 19. November 2005, 20:56: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
God knows why, but I said quote:
breeze-block wall behind the communion table and the lectionary
I meant lectern... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fauja:
I wonder, do we pursue an understanding of Christ in order to become more Christ-like or do we become Christ-like in order to understand Christ more? What is the main purpose of a relationship with God anyway?
I think, since we're spending the rest of existence with Him, in His presence, it's good to start the process of knowing Him now. There are some chicken-or-the-egg qualities to much of this discussion, that's for sure!
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
Weed, thank you for posting the Newberg Q&A page - fascinating stuff! There is also work by Daniel Amen (who happens to be a Christian) and specializes in brain research and applications - he's written a lot of books (one I really enjoy has a dreadful name: "Change Your Brain, Change Your Life" - !!! - fascinating book, however).
quote:
Newberg said:
Our research indicates that our only way of comprehending God, asking questions about God, and experiencing God is through the brain. But whether or not God exists "out there" is something that neuroscience cannot answer. For example, if we take a brain image of a person when she is looking at a picture, we will see various parts of the brain being activated, such as the visual cortex. But the brain image cannot tell us whether or not there actually is a picture “out there” or whether the person is creating the picture in her own mind. To a certain degree, we all create our own sense of reality. Getting at what is really real is the tricky part.
Dr. Paul Brand (who co-wrote "Fearfully and Wonderfully Made") is another profound Christian and research physician - much of what we now know about leprosy comes from his many years of work and observation as a medical missionary in India - and in his fabulous book, "Pain - the Gift Nobody Wants" he talks about this curious phenomenon that we "live" in a dark little box at the top of spinal columns... interesting stuff. I think perhaps we need an "Is It All In Your Head?" thread to explore the brain/spirit interface... if I can figure out how to do that, I will!
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fauja:
I wonder, do we pursue an understanding of Christ in order to become more Christ-like or do we become Christ-like in order to understand Christ more? What is the main purpose of a relationship with God anyway?
Well. I don't claim to have a PRWG. But as a follower of Christ, because I've been mesmerized by the beauty and love of Jesus/God - I both seek to be like Him/Her and to get to discover more of what and who God is. I'm totally curious, when I look at the stars at night, when I think about the processes and phenomenal forces of the universe or even the beauty of entropy and variation in creation - man, I'm like freaking out. It so amazing. From dinosaurs to fluffy bunnies. So, yeah I'm kind of curious as to what kind of Being thought of it and made weird laws like gravity and spun the universe into existence. Also, i find Jesus's teachings to be really profound. Sure I love Zen teachings, too. I also love a lot Chinese philosophy thought. But truly, there's something unique about Christ. I would love to more forgiving like him. I don't think I'll ever "get" God. He's just way too big. I'm not worried by this though. I have my whole life to discover God and learn more about Him and apply his wisdom and love to my life. So, yeah, to answer your question - its both.
[ 20. November 2005, 03:03: Message edited by: Joyfulsoul ]
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I don't claim to have a PRWG. But as a follower of Christ, because I've been mesmerized by the beauty and love of Jesus/God - I both seek to be like Him/Her and to get to discover more of what and who God is. I'm totally curious, when I look at the stars at night, when I think about the processes and phenomenal forces of the universe or even the beauty of entropy and variation in creation - man, I'm like freaking out. It so amazing. From dinosaurs to fluffy bunnies. So, yeah I'm kind of curious as to what kind of Being thought of it and made weird laws like gravity and spun the universe into existence.
I known a Christian brother who is truly brilliant (I think he holds three doctorates in assorted hard sciences) and, for him, research is worship - you're resonating with some of what I hear from him when he talks about learning more about God by observing the universe - very cool! And my Dad (went home to heaven this past January) was a physicist and a deeply committed Christian and he used to theorize that gravity is love... (science can describe the laws of gravity, but nobody really understands what it IS, or so I'm told). He also used to see evidence of creation in the fact that ice floats... technically, water shouldn't do that and ice ought to be down there at the bottom of the pond, not up on top making a nice skating surface - but this what water does! And if it didn't, life as we know it wouldn't exist on this planet. Hmmm. Lots of personal relationship with God for him in science.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
[tangent]
quote:
He also used to see evidence of creation in the fact that ice floats... technically, water shouldn't do that and ice ought to be down there at the bottom of the pond
Technically, ice should float, and it does. It's intrinsic in the shape and polarity of the water molecule that ice will be less dense than cold water.
[/tangent]
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[tangent]
quote:
He also used to see evidence of creation in the fact that ice floats... technically, water shouldn't do that and ice ought to be down there at the bottom of the pond
Technically, ice should float, and it does. It's intrinsic in the shape and polarity of the water molecule that ice will be less dense than cold water.
[/tangent]
Water is densest at 4 degrees C. (As I'm sure you know, Karl.) This 'ice shouldn't float' thing sounds a bit like 'science says bumblebees can't fly'. Science teaches us to make observations. So we observe ice floating, and bumblebees flying, and we say 'Hm. Bit of a problem with any theory that contradicts this, really.'
I observe Christians (including myself) saying they don't experience a personal relationship with Jesus in the usual sense, and other saying they do. So I'd have a problem with any theory that says such a thing is necessary to Christianity, or that belief in it is somehow wrong for Christians.
T.
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Little devil
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corvette
Shipmate
# 9436
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Posted
Of course ice floats! it's a concession to polar bears, who can swim, but need a rest now and then. It also ensures your lemonade goes to the bottom of the glass where the straw can reach it.
Apparently if ice sank, the sea would go on freezing as more and more water met the cold polar air. Keeping the warm stuff deeper down and putting the insulation layer (ice) at the top, helps the fish to stay alive in winter. And that's good for the polar bears too.
Ain't creation wonderful?? God obviously has a heart for polar bears
{..after a sermon we had recently about creation, where Tim explained the difference between science which answers why /through what cause/ [the world was created], as against religion which answers why /for what purpose/. }
Posts: 494 | From: ecclesia sans frontiers | Registered: May 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I observe Christians (including myself) saying they don't experience a personal relationship with Jesus in the usual sense, and other saying they do. So I'd have a problem with any theory that says such a thing is necessary to Christianity, or that belief in it is somehow wrong for Christians.
Excellently put, T. That about sums it up for me, too.
-Digory
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
There are Anglicans who describe a personal relationship not only with Jesus but with some of the saints. I wouldn't doubt it for them, but it's apparently not the way my mind works, any more than I can make myself speak in tongues.
A few days ago for amusement, I took another personality test. Sure enough, it reported that I was an INT (on the Myers-Briggs scale). They usually identify me as INTP, sometimes INTJ. Some tests have their own categories, but whatever is closest to INTP, that's where they put me. We're a fairly skeptical lot with respect for ideas, language, and reasoning. We're also inner-directed and regard suggestibility as a weakness. So if someone starts "sharing" what Jesus told her, I'm tempted to ask, "Did He speak to you in English?" People who describe hearing voices that others around them can't hear are probably mentally ill. But if Jesus doesn't speak in English, how can the person be so certain of the message?
How many adult INTPs remain in ecclesial groups for whom "a personal relationship with Jesus" etc. is a sine qua non? Aren't these groups, in effect, consigning certain personality types to hell?
[ 21. November 2005, 21:20: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
I'm an INTP - and very I and very P. I find this interesting: quote:
How many adult INTPs remain in ecclesial groups for whom "a personal relationship with Jesus" etc. is a sine qua non? Aren't these groups, in effect, consigning certain personality types to hell?
I'm also very much one of John A T Robinson's "once-born" Christians. I can't remember a time when I wasn't consciously a Christian - not even those six searing weeks in my fourteenth year when I desperately wanted faith, and didn't have it. In the course of my life, I've never come to a relationship with God I didn't have before - other than in a gentle, evolutionary sense. I've never not had a relationship with God that's not engaged a big part of what I am. But I can't describe it as personal in the sense that people on this thread seem to mean, because it isn't a person on the other side of it. It's God.
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
Sorry to double-post; I notice that "priests" and "religious leaders" are supposed to be very poorly represented among INTPs. Hmmm.
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[tangent]
Technically, ice should float, and it does. It's intrinsic in the shape and polarity of the water molecule that ice will be less dense than cold water.
[/tangent]
YES, but why? Why does *water* behave that way, have an adiabatic reaction and expand its molecules at a certain temperature? I think the "why does it do that?" question (and lack of an adequate *purely scientific* answer) was what delighted him, in that situation.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
...We're also inner-directed and regard suggestibility as a weakness. So if someone starts "sharing" what Jesus told her, I'm tempted to ask, "Did He speak to you in English?" People who describe hearing voices that others around them can't hear are probably mentally ill. But if Jesus doesn't speak in English, how can the person be so certain of the message?
I think this is a really good question - I have known people who have heard an external voice, outside their head. I have known people who hear a specific voice *inside* their head. For myself, it's often a "sense" of something, where I can apply my own words to describe that sense - and then sometimes there will be "corrections" if I'm using the "wrong" word. I don't know if this will make any sense or not(especially to the wall folks-- *sorry!*), but in those situations when I've been "pressed" to use a different word (given a specific word *in Englsh*), that word has proved to be really important in the prayer context.
I'll give an example: praying with a friend in a small prayer group. Family members were recently out to visit and she felt "slimed" and as she explained her prayer request to us, I got the sense that it related to her mother, old mother wounding stuff got stirred up, etc. Now, I've met her mother on a number of occasions and to me she's always been "Mutti" - she's German and that's what my friend calls her mom & that's how she was introduced to me. So time comes to pray and I'm getting this picture in my mind and trying to pray out the picture (see, this is why your "Did He speak to you in English?" question is really good) - the picture is a very thin, spike-like shard of stone material, like a splinter of stone, so I'm describing, "I see a shard, I see a splinter and it's old, there's festering around it..." and the picture keeps coming back new, almost like refreshing a computer page (this is not typical for me), so I keep trying to describe it because I can tell I'm not communicating something important. Finally the picture changes and I see a classic crystal formation with one "finger" longer than the others - so, in describing this new picture, I say, "It's crystal--" and my friend's eyes fly open and she sort of gasps and I look at her, "what?" and she asks, "Do you know my mother's name?" Noooo - "My mother's name is Crystal." So we continued to pray through this area of old pain and wounding - but this just confirmed for all of us that we were on the right track and God was in the prayer. But that's what I mean when I say sometimes I get very specific words - and sometimes the word comes in word-form, and not image-form - but God talks to me a lot in pictures... kinda cool. I like it, once I got used to it and started to "trust" it).
There is definitely a growth and experience component to all this, which perhaps is why some people argue that "anybody can have <this kind> of PRWG" - they remember how it was for them when they started. But I'm not sure that's the case - I think God is too big and enjoys variety (and variations on themes) too much to interact with all of us the same way. Some of it may be a physical brain thing, some of it may be personality (Myers-Briggs has some interesting applications) - and how much of personality is genetic? The whole nature vs. nurture debate enters in. So I figure God is very big and I am very small and it would be pure folly for me to expect Him to interact with all of us the same way. And I really would not want to discourage someone or cause pain to someone by putting an expectation upon them (the implied "what's wrong with you?" question).
I don't mind if people ask questions about what I experience and how I know what I know - but if they start making "she's loony" kinds of responses, I'd be saddened. I have a schizo-affective daughter-in-law and she DOES hear voices that nobody else hears (and it's controlled with medication... *sigh*) - my experience is nothing like hers, even the one or two times I've 'heard' Jesus' voice in my head.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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