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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Personal Relationship with Christ? Huh?
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Fauja
Lesser known misfit
# 2054
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
But every time you tried to get in touch with the person, you never could--you never heard back from him, you never could actually see him face to face. You might have one rather lengthy letter sitting at home from him, but you've never really heard his voice.
That's not much of a personal relationship, is it?
I think this statement encapsulates the problems we have when trying to reconcile theory with what is actually happening. Theory tells me that I can have a dramatic experience of God because it's in the Bible. My experience tells me, personally, that I have had an encounter with God that some other people may have doubts about. But the crux of the matter is whether or not I actually am still experiencing that personal relationship with God. It is natural to desire such a relationship if we think it is at all possible but the Scriptures tend to emphasise worship and faith above the actual knowing-God-personally side of religion.
Abraham was considered a friend of God because he believed in spite of improbable odds of anything God said being true. His personal acquantance with God was not measured in terms of how often God spoke to him personally or felt his presence but by the fact that he believed. I think that to truly know God requires that we remain faithful and faith-filled through all those dark days when there seem to be no signs of God other than what the Scriptures say. Hebrews 11 has much to say on the subject of faith.
I can identify with the feeling of being lost and without connection with God all the more because I have experienced what I would call encounters with God. The challenge for me is to rise above subjective feelings and still worship God anyway. Sometimes I pray more to make that connection but I am also learning that the process of engagement requires more than words, it is a discipline of keeping an attitude of prayer and the Church has played a big part in that development.
Posts: 829 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Digory - the more I invoke the PRWG - which looks like a design for Tony's belated born-again nuclear energy policy - the more personal it becomes. Yours is a superb analogy and therfore inadequate, just as the analogy that is the concept of a PRWG is. I am a person in relationship with the Persons of God. One of the luckiest people alive. I would love to hear a voice say "You're welcome." the next time I say "Thank you Jesus.", but it will have to wait till after I'm dead. In the mean time I have the undivided attention of my Father, Brother, Advocate, Comforter along with every other Christian. As well as the Family Christmas Letter that keeps being added to by my simply opening it. Now there's a thought ...
Walking and talking (driving and working) with my invisible Friends is the natural intended state of man. Worship. Or I'm a crazed solipsist talking to his imaginary, external, idealized, delusional, repressed, obsessive self.
Bit of both really. It keeps me alive. Hopeful. Saner.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
So once again it comes down to a question of definition. Martin PC Not defines "personal relationship" as "a relationship between persons" and so he thinks he has one with God. Some of us have a stricter definition and therefore don't see that we have one with God.
Is there anything else that can be said on this topic that isn't some variation on one of the two above positions?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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Posted
from professorkirke
quote:
Well, think of it this way, Martin. What if someone found out that you were in big trouble, and so they paid your bail, etc,etc...
professor, there is a very clear difference between this scenario, and how God responds,IME.
God waits for us to call on him; he's knocking, but He doesn't open the door all by Himself. We are an active party in the relationship.
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Actually it's worse than that. What we have is a 2000-year old book that SAYS we were in debt and God paid our account. No letters from creditors, nobody knocking the door down looking for payment. It's even less like a personal relationship than the scenario Digory painted.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
All I can say is that I am astonished in the change in tone of Martin PC's posts. Something has happened, and he tells us that what it is for him is a rediscovery (discovery?) of personal relationship with God, through the awareness that his sins have been paid for by the death of Jesus on the cross.
I know this is non-purgatorial, but praise God! Others can theorise, but this morning (Sydney time) I am thanking God for his kindness, yet again.
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's the biggest Heraclitean loop of re-discovery ever Gordon. Hopefully I've been broken out of stepping in to the same stream twice and more, which is what Heraclitus said one can't do. And he was right. I have re-discovered Jesus, as Malcolm Muggeridge did a generation and more ago, I have discovered that my appalling, truly appalling sins and their appalling ongoing consequences are Jesus' FULL responsibility. Hopefully I'm not looping or in a rogue comet orbit, I've broken free of the surly bonds of earth and I'm reaching out to touch the face of God although my reach exceeds my grasp as yet. You've seen me loop here before, trying to save my life and respond to God's hand upon me at the same time. Well, I couldn't. No one can. And when I crashed and burned, He picked me up. Again. And has lifted my higher than ever. Not very Purgatorial, no, but I'll fail you now Gordon by going to do battle with Ruth over my intemperate remark about Gene Robinson.
And Mousethief, my dear, I think I had moved on from claiming a mere PRWG. It's better than that. My personal relationships are a LOT more problematic.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
The poem to which Martin alluded...
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
<snip -copyright? use google >
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
John Gillespie Magee, Jr.
[Hosts, once again, apologies for personal discussion, but the PM function for Martin is locked]
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (gracia):
from professorkirke
quote:
Well, think of it this way, Martin. What if someone found out that you were in big trouble, and so they paid your bail, etc,etc...
professor, there is a very clear difference between this scenario, and how God responds,IME.
God waits for us to call on him; he's knocking, but He doesn't open the door all by Himself. We are an active party in the relationship.
As Mousethief has already somewhat pointed out, the situation is less personal than even the one I'd originally described. God may be waiting for us to call on him, but most of us never hear him knock. We don't know much about our debt except what other various people tell us. We have to trust a lot of things about this person whom we've never communicated directly with.
We are certainly an active party. Some of us feel like we are the only active party.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
I don't see the connection between "taking full responsibility for sins" and a necessary "personal relationship".
I've not read all of this thread, but as someone who does think of his relationship with God in personal terms I think the "necessary" bit is being blown out of all proportion.
No disrespect meant, Dave, but perhaps your confusion comes from not reading all of the thread.
My use of the word "necessary" was meant to allude to a necessary following from the previous proposition. It could have been reworded like this:
I don't see why a "personal relationship" necessarily follows from the fact that someone has "taken full responsibility for my sins".
Hope that makes more sense.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Who's "We" Digory? I know my debt. Just the gut slicing edge of it I must admit. But I know it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
I don't see why a "personal relationship" necessarily follows from the fact that someone has "taken full responsibility for my sins".
Thanks for restating this, but I think my point is still valid.
You seem to be thinking that a PRWG must involve something like hearing voices. I'm suggesting that "personal" is broader than that, that the psychological processes we use to manage our relationships are (for some of us anyway) more flexible. In particular, inputs and outputs for those processes don't have to be limited to the ones we normally use for our inter-human-person relationships.
I am not a psychologist or anything like, but how we imagine our relationship with God has to be an individual thing. So if you think of it as a creator/created thing and separate out how you receive information from God (Bible, human love, beauty in nature, for example) from the relationship itself, that's one way of seeing it. If I include the same information as simply another relationship input, the end result is the same. It seems to me this is only a different way of thinking about what's going on in our heads.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Who's "We" Digory? I know my debt. Just the gut slicing edge of it I must admit. But I know it.
I said, "God may be waiting for us to call on him, but most of us never hear him knock. We don't know much about our debt except what other various people tell us."
Now that I think about it, "most of us" was probably an inappropriate choice of phrases. But I did mean to refer to only those people who have expressed any rejection of the idea of a personal relationship with God here on this thread and in "real life" as I have met them.
"Some of us" would have worked better.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But Dave, if we wouldn't consider the "input" as a personal relationship with another human being, why should we consider it a personal relationship when it's from God? Aren't we then just twisting the meaning of that phrase beyond what it is able to bear?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
I don't see why a "personal relationship" necessarily follows from the fact that someone has "taken full responsibility for my sins".
Thanks for restating this, but I think my point is still valid.
You seem to be thinking that a PRWG must involve something like hearing voices. I'm suggesting that "personal" is broader than that, that the psychological processes we use to manage our relationships are (for some of us anyway) more flexible. In particular, inputs and outputs for those processes don't have to be limited to the ones we normally use for our inter-human-person relationships.
I am not a psychologist or anything like, but how we imagine our relationship with God has to be an individual thing. So if you think of it as a creator/created thing and separate out how you receive information from God (Bible, human love, beauty in nature, for example) from the relationship itself, that's one way of seeing it. If I include the same information as simply another relationship input, the end result is the same. It seems to me this is only a different way of thinking about what's going on in our heads.
I agree completely (I think). The overwhelming point first made by Karl LBS and later picked up by myself was that you may in fact call your relationship with God quite personal, while I may refer to mine as not so personal. Because I may believe that Jesus has taken full responsibility for my sins would not necessarily mean that I must believe that I have a relationship with Jesus, or that this relationship is personal by my own understanding of what a personal relationship is.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
But Dave, if we wouldn't consider the "input" as a personal relationship with another human being, why should we consider it a personal relationship when it's from God?
Because I think, in with all the rest of his attributes, God has something of the personal that is some sense the same as the personal we connect to in other people. So I'd say, why not call a relationship with God personal, if that's how we think of it.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Because God never seems to connect back, whereas the other people I interact with do? If I have a relationship with another human being that is entirely in my imagination, that's not a personal relationship. At best it is delusion; at worst it is stalking.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
It would be interesting to hear your take on the Narnia thread here in purg...
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I thought I'd already given my take on that thread, but I'll go look.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
MT's observation about stalking is stimulating. It's dangerous to overestimate our perception of our own thought processes. I remember a vicar friend of mine, having to deliver a sermon without preparation in the post Easter-period (the curate was taken ill on the Sunday morning). It was in the David Jenkins "conjuring trick with bones" era.
He came up with this little gem. "There is a lot of chatter amongst Christians today about the exact manner and nature of the resurrection of Jesus. That is all very interesting I suppose. But a more profound question occurs to me. We proclaim in this season that Jesus is alive today. In what ways do we find that to be true for us?"
My personal answer is that there are external stimuli and internal resonances. In the natural world, in relationships with other people, in the sacred texts, in times of worship. Things which help us "relate" to the Numinous. And everyone has a different story to tell - when we share them we find similarities and differences.
The reason why I liked the stalking comment is that there is a sense in which I believe the Holy Spirit is the "stalker" and the journey of faith is as much a matter of God seeking a people as it is people seeking for God.
Perhaps the language of personal relationship gets in the way of the fact that there is actually a good deal of personal relating going on? There is a tension between the Eternal Almighty and the Abba Father. I guess we relate personally to God somewhere on the line between the two. God dwells in light inaccessible, hid from our eyes (distant) and is also present (closely) in the Body of Christ. He is also an indwelling Spirit. It is hard for me to see how God can be Immanent without in some way being personal. But that's just my take. When I pray I am sure Someone is both "listening" and "speaking". But I'm often hard of "hearing".
<spelling>
[ 28. November 2005, 09:04: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Walking and talking (driving and working) with my invisible Friends is the natural intended state of man. Worship.
I once realized that part of why we, in our brokenness, so consistently fall into co-dependent relationships with other people is because God built us to be dependent upon HIM, but it's easier to substitute in someone we can see and touch and hear more easily...
quote:
Professor Kirke wrote:
As Mousethief has already somewhat pointed out, the situation is less personal than even the one I'd originally described. God may be waiting for us to call on him, but most of us never hear him knock. We don't know much about our debt except what other various people tell us. We have to trust a lot of things about this person whom we've never communicated directly with.
We are certainly an active party. Some of us feel like we are the only active party.
The image I get is a bunch of little kids at a party and some have stuffed cake in their ears and some are crying and a few have been boxed about the head and shoulders or suffered so many ear infections that their hearing is damaged through no fault of their own, and there are some running around playing cops & robbers and shrieking, and a few little girls having a tea-party with their dolls and a little kid sitting near the door who realizes his mum is knocking and finally calling his name, so he gets up opens the door.
How come he gets a face-to-face relationship with his mother? A whole series of factors: 1. he wanted it, 2. his mother told him she'd be back to get him and he was expecting her, 3. he didn't stuff cake in his ears, 4. he doesn't have a congenital hearing problem, 5. he hasn't had injuries or illnesses which caused hearing problems, 6. he hasn't been running around and playing so hard that he forget to listen, 7. he wasn't satisfied with having a tea party, playing cops & robbers, etc.
Some of those are entirely out of the control of the child; some of those are personal choices; some of them are inclinations of individual nature. There are any number of reasons and combinations of reaons why this one kid wound up opening the door to his mother and not the others but, in this illustration at least, his listening coincided with her presence at the door. "Seek the Lord while He may be found" implies that He is not always equally or consistently findable.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Because God never seems to connect back...
And there's me thinking that my whole experience of life is God talking back.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Because God never seems to connect back...
And there's me thinking that my whole experience of life is God talking back.
For you it may well be. That experience is nowhere near universal, though, and I doubt that MT meant to imply that it is...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martin:
For you it may well be. That experience is nowhere near universal, though, and I doubt that MT meant to imply that it is...
No, I didn't think he was. I only meant to clarify why a personal relationship with God makes sense to me.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Damn your goggly eyes, Digory, but there's nowt wrong wi' yer 'most of us', it's yer 'we'. But there again, yer 'we' = 'most of us' logically and isn't a universal 'we' including me, I just dimmly realize.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Damn your goggly eyes, Digory, but there's nowt wrong wi' yer 'most of us', it's yer 'we'. But there again, yer 'we' = 'most of us' logically and isn't a universal 'we' including me, I just dimmly realize.
Antecedent, Martin. We referred to the "most of us" that I'd already described, and have since modified to "some of us." It was never meant to refer to "all of us." Don't get all "evo1ish" on me, now.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
How come he gets a face-to-face relationship with his mother? A whole series of factors: 1. he wanted it, 2. his mother told him she'd be back to get him and he was expecting her, 3. he didn't stuff cake in his ears, 4. he doesn't have a congenital hearing problem, 5. he hasn't had injuries or illnesses which caused hearing problems, 6. he hasn't been running around and playing so hard that he forget to listen, 7. he wasn't satisfied with having a tea party, playing cops & robbers, etc.
This is a great illustration, Lynn, and I've been thinking about it a lot. Large scope. Good stuff.
I think that all of your reasons can't really be looked at as the fault of the child. Any mother who drops his kid off at a party yet doesn't expect him/her to play, shove some cake in his ears, get lost in a game or two, etc. is fooling herself. Those kids all make it home from their parties, too.
I mean, can you see the newspaper article?
____________________________________________________
LOCAL BOY'S 4th BIRTHDAY PARTY ENDS IN TRAGEDY
Newly 4-year old Jimmy Jenkins' birthday party ended in the late afternoon on Saturday, but with a twist few could have expected.
Several of the children had managed to jam a fair amount of cake in their ears, others were sick with ear infections, and still others were "playing much too hard to hear properly," said one mother who remained anonymous.
The mothers arrived to pick up their children at precisely 2:30 pm, and waited on the porch while knocking lightly on the door. After two hours of knocking with no response, the mothers left confused and returned to their homes.
After the mothers had left, the children left at the party were dragged to the basement, where they are being kept for all of eternity. There, they will be tortured with no chance of ever seeing their mothers again.
One child, Lisa Loland, happened to be sitting near the door at the time of her mother's arrival, and managed to make her way home after the party.
"The other mothers were knocking clearly," said Mrs. Loland. "It's a shame the children didn't hear them knock, but they really have no excuse. The mothers gave them a chance to come home."
"I'm not sure why my child didn't come to the door," asks one of the unlucky mothers. "I know he has a hearing impairment and can't hear, but I wrote him a note when he was 1 year old and stuck it in his dresser drawer, telling him that whenever he's at a party he should listen because I will come for him. I don't know why he didn't remember."
_________________________________________________
If this is the case, then, wouldn't we expect a personal, caring God to burst through the doors of the house and make himself known in some other way if we do not hear him knocking at the door? Perhaps this is not how your view of God works, but then I have trouble thinking of him as being "personal" or indeed "caring."
-Digory
PS Sorry for the lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng post.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
Basically this thread is like this:
1: Wahoo, me n' Jesus are buddies! Everyone should be buddies with Jesus and have sleepovers!
2: I'm not buddies with Jesus. You must be making that up.
1: No, really. I'm not making that up. There must be something wrong with you. Why don't you luuurve Jesus the way I do?
2: Huh? Are you on crack or are you deaf? I don't relate to Jesus like he's my buddy. What don't you understand about that?
1: Ah. I get it now. You've clearly been traumatised in your past relationships and so have a defunct image of God that doesn't allow you to have warm feelings and closeness like me <sigh> (I know I'm special 'cause Jesus loooves me so).
2: Why are you psycho-analysing me? Don't you know I have XXXX personality type that flies in the face of your analysis? See, I don't feel close to God.
1: Aha, now I really get it this time. It is because you don't hear him knocking on the door of heart. Quiet now...shhh...wait for it...wait for it...see? Can't you hear him knocking just waiting to be close to you?
2: So, now its my fault I can't hear him. Who made me deaf in the first place, huh? What type of God is this? Clearly you are wrong.
1: .....
2: .....
[And the conversation goes on ad naseum ... will Harry and Janice ever be re-united? Will this conversation ever reach some sort of reconciliation? Stay tune...]
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
You forgot about the part where Person 2 tells a hilarious story about children at a party.
I mean, ridiculously hilarious.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
Well, I'm not perfect you know. It's hard to edit 8 long pages into a few sentences. I gave it my best effort. Not that your news article wasn't absolutely hilarious andclever, though.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Don't beat yourself up about it. We all make mistakes. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Not all of us are absolute freaking geniuses, though, and on that note, Joyfulsoul, you just made my list of Important People To Watch. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
[ 29. November 2005, 03:48: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
"I'm not sure why my child didn't come to the door," asks one of the unlucky mothers. "I know he has a hearing impairment and can't hear, but I wrote him a note when he was 1 year old and stuck it in his dresser drawer, telling him that whenever he's at a party he should listen because I will come for him. I don't know why he didn't remember."
I haven't laughed this hard for a week - very good! I'm not actually trying to come up with an equivalence - I don't think there IS an equivalence. But various angles from which to view the conundrum. At the end of the day, I do not have *any* answer as to why God deigns to allow me to have a "personal relationship" with Him - I just know He does. I don't think it makes me any "better" than anybody else and I don't attribute it to anything that other people don't also report doing (i.e., being accessible, spending time in the Bible, in prayer, in worship, listening) - the only thing that *might* apply, which marks the "kicking into high gear" point in this relationship, was my state of profound brokenness - but it's not something you can work yourself into (and you wouldn't want to, if you could--). I dunno, maybe God literally took pity on me, in my pain.
To follow the analogy (as flawed and ridiculous as it is), when the child doesn't respond to the knock at the door, the mom walks up the garden path and knocks on the window and the hostess says, "ah, Sue! you're here to pick up little Billy!" and the outcome is very different than the being tormented for eternity in the basement. Likewise, none of the people in this discussion are going to hell for not having what they would call a "personal" relationship with Christ; they're following Jesus the best they are able, even though it sometimes feels like a wall, and exercising tremendous faith, imho (the little boy whose mother is last to arrive and collect him may get nervous but rarely does he stop believing his mother will, in fact, come). Like the beggar Lazarus, at their death the angels will come and escort them to meet this Jesus, finally making the relationshp truly personal in heaven.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
Kelly Aves, you make me blush. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) And you were always on my Important People to Watch list.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Joyfulsoul and ProfK - thank you!!!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
...they're following Jesus the best they are able, even though it sometimes feels like a wall, and exercising tremendous faith, imho (the little boy whose mother is last to arrive and collect him may get nervous but rarely does he stop believing his mother will, in fact, come). Like the beggar Lazarus, at their death the angels will come and escort them to meet this Jesus, finally making the relationshp truly personal in heaven.
AMEN! Excellently said. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-Digory
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
I wondered, Digory, when you wrote your newspaper article, did you maybe have compartment rupture between this topic and "God allowing hell" topic? I don't think anybody had raised the possibility of hell as the result of lacking a PRWG until the basement... ?? Just wondering...
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
I wondered, Digory, when you wrote your newspaper article, did you maybe have compartment rupture between this topic and "God allowing hell" topic? I don't think anybody had raised the possibility of hell as the result of lacking a PRWG until the basement... ?? Just wondering...
Yes, I think sometimes the threads run together in my mind...
But I do think there are many here that believe that if you NEVER achieve a PRWG, that you've never fully been saved. Otherwise, they wouldn't nag so hard about how important it is. (Not you, of course, Lynn... )
-Digory
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Yes, I think sometimes the threads run together in my mind...
But I do think there are many here that believe that if you NEVER achieve a PRWG, that you've never fully been saved. Otherwise, they wouldn't nag so hard about how important it is. (Not you, of course, Lynn... )
I hope I'm not nagging! I'm sharing my own experience and trying to understand something which is *hard* for me to understand (it would be much easier if I could say, "ah, THOSE people are deficient in some way!" - but I have learned through the years that is not the case)... on the other hand, I do know that my "tone" is often misunderstood. I'm intense, but playful. Kind of like an enormous puppy...
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
I've stayed off this thread because I don't have a problem with the PRWG as a concept - it's one I can relate to. But I do get very annoyed with the evangellymould idea of salvation that often goes along with it.
At a church meeting last night, we were told to give each other our testimonies. Now, there was a lot of talk about how each one is individual, and how your story is unique, etc etc. But we were told the heart of the message is the difference that Jesus has made to your life.
Well, I don't have a standard before/after testimony. I've always known God was there. I've always known He loved me (in the same way as I know my parents love me - not just intellectual consent but heart knowledge). My life has been a long, gradual process of learning more of God. So the 'difference' concept is irrelevant to me. You might as well ask me what difference being female/Welsh/left-handed has made to my life. I could talk about what being any of those things means to me. I could talk about the impact those things have on my life. But 'difference' just doesn't compute.
The well-meaning person next to me said I needed more about the 'difference' aspect in my testimony - that it didn't stress how I felt forgiven, cleansed, etc. Well, that's why it's my testimony and not yours, sorry. If those things had felt major aspects of my story, I'd have put them in.
We finished up with a 'bridge to life' four-step 'come to Jesus' thingy. It was stressed that it isn't a formula, and it's just one way of looking at things. So far, so good. But I realised that, though they may be helpful for many, such things are deeply painful for me. Since the age of 11, friends have been using them to beat me over the head (in love, of course) and say that 'if you haven't done this, you're probably not a Christian'.
So, though I'm still happy to count myself a hand-raising, Jesus-cuddling charismatic with a PRWG, I hope you don't mind if I sit with you guys for a while.
It's no wonder us Elder Brothers get a bit snarky sometimes, when those who are recovering from the Pigswill Diet think theirs is the only way.
(Yes, I confess, I was thinking of the SoF Quotes File thread when I wrote that last sentence. Well, either that, or I was channelling Martin ...)
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
There are one or two here who have come very close to saying "If you haven't had a PRWJ then you are not saved, or not a 'proper' Christian".
But I have had that said to me IRL. Several times. And it hurts, offends and everything else you can think of.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Yes, I think sometimes the threads run together in my mind...
But I do think there are many here that believe that if you NEVER achieve a PRWG, that you've never fully been saved. Otherwise, they wouldn't nag so hard about how important it is. (Not you, of course, Lynn... )
I hope I'm not nagging!
No no no I honestly meant "not you"! I realize now that it probably sounded sarcastic, but it wasn't. You go to great lengths to make sure you're not misunderstood as being nasty. You're all good.
-Digory
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
So, though I'm still happy to count myself a hand-raising, Jesus-cuddling charismatic with a PRWG, I hope you don't mind if I sit with you guys for a while.
Hey, we're all in this together. That's what can be so great about it. (And it's why I don't think is Rook is all right when he rants about the completely negative effects of religion, either...)
Thanks for sharing, Gill. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
-Digory
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
There are one or two here who have come very close to saying "If you haven't had a PRWJ then you are not saved, or not a 'proper' Christian".
But I have had that said to me IRL. Several times. And it hurts, offends and everything else you can think of.
Nicodemia, you are totally right that such statements hurt and offend - like watching a violent movie where they shoot someone and then *press* on the wound to get the person to talk - ugh. Not okay. I don't know if I'm oblivious (sometimes I am) to the comments made that implied as much, but I'd like to assure you I do not believe it for a moment, and if I have in any way erroneously expressed such a p.o.v., that was wrong and I apologize. As for the IRL stuff, it's kind of scary how much we can hurt other and still "mean well"...
Gill, yup. One-size-fits-all Christianity. In my early twenties as I got serious about my faith, I also got VERY offended by the "Let's put God in THIS box!" lopping off all the bits that don't fit approach to Christianity... grrrrrr. I am more tolerant now because I recognize the limitations under which such people operate - but yeah, it still bugs me (and I'll nag them, given the chance!).
And thanks for reassuring me, Digory (!!) - I'm not "all good" by any means but, like the puppy, the big messes I make are unintentional...
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
There are one or two here who have come very close to saying "If you haven't had a PRWJ then you are not saved, or not a 'proper' Christian".
But I have had that said to me IRL. Several times. And it hurts, offends and everything else you can think of.
If you are "saved" -- redeemed, reconciled with God, however you want to put it -- you do have a very personal relationship indeed with the Christ.
As for being a "proper" Christian, ya ought to get folks who say the stuff that hurts you to define their terms and state exactly how the good terms apply to them.
The discussion might help them figure out what they really mean, and either stop sounding self-righteous or stop being self-righteous, whichever applies.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
There are one or two here who have come very close to saying "If you haven't had a PRWJ then you are not saved, or not a 'proper' Christian".
But I have had that said to me IRL. Several times. And it hurts, offends and everything else you can think of.
If you are "saved" -- redeemed, reconciled with God, however you want to put it -- you do have a very personal relationship indeed with the Christ.
No I do not. But we're back where we started, aren't we?
I have a PRWJ when He:
Meets me down the pub
Talks to me
Plays RPGs with me
Jams with me on His bass guitar
Makes me dinner
Sleeps with me (scratch that one; I'm straight)
Get the picture. These are the sort of things that make a personal relationship.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
quote:
Plays RPGs with me
He'd be an interesting GM.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
quote:
Plays RPGs with me
He'd be an interesting GM.
It'd have to be Amber or something. He doesn't play dice.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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