homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Will God allow anyone to go to hell? (Page 11)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Will God allow anyone to go to hell?
kempis3
Shipmate
# 9792

 - Posted      Profile for kempis3         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You really want to go to heaven where all those fundies are enduring 24/7 etc "heroin" highs?

Hell is going to be farrrr more interesting -- even the conversations will be more interesting.

The days of being frightened by the after-life are way gone.

--------------------
Man plots -- God laughs.

Posts: 148 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kempis3:
You really want to go to heaven where all those fundies are enduring 24/7 etc "heroin" highs?

Hell is going to be farrrr more interesting -- even the conversations will be more interesting.

Nice thought. So where do you get your idea of what those places will be like?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
barrea
Shipmate
# 3211

 - Posted      Profile for barrea     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kempis3:
You really want to go to heaven where all those fundies are enduring 24/7 etc "heroin" highs?

Hell is going to be farrrr more interesting -- even the conversations will be more interesting.

The days of being frightened by the after-life are way gone.

If the fire mentioned in 'The Lake of fire' Is literal fire.I can't imagine anyone having conversations of any sort interesting or not.

--------------------
Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1

Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes this idea of Hell as a place where people sit around and drink tea and scoff good-naturedly at the goody-two-shoes in heaven -- where did THAT come from?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24

 - Posted      Profile for Demas     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Yes this idea of Hell as a place where people sit around and drink tea and scoff good-naturedly at the goody-two-shoes in heaven -- where did THAT come from?

From people knowing in their heart of hearts that an everlasting literal lake of fire is an abomination unto God; but not abandoning the concept of hell because they have always been taught that it is real and an essential part of the Christian message.

The same impulse removes talk of hell entirely from most churches, although they theoretically believe in it. Harry Potter churches; scared of the Doctrine-that-must-not-be-named.

--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

 - Posted      Profile for Niënna   Email Niënna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Human freedom as a gift from God.

If freedom is not a real thing then the urgent demands to repentance and obedience, which are present on virtually every page of the Bible, are pointless.

Exactly. God values our freedom. Look at the world around us. He allows people to exercise choices that are incredibly horrific and does little to stop them. Because such freedom is availible, that means that repentence is also possible and obedience is possible. That's what I see is as the gospel - the ability to repent and receive life - life abundant.

--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24

 - Posted      Profile for Demas     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Is that ability to repent given equally to all people? Is it affected by our sinful natures?

Do we have to repent for everything to receive life abundant, or only some things? What percentage of my sins must I repent for? Do I have to really, really mean it? Or can I just be vaguely sorry?

If repentance is something we do of our own free choice than it is just another work. It is the thing we must do to choose heaven and save ourselves.

If repentance is the work of the grace of God, freely given to us, then we are back to the original question: Universalism or Double-Predestination?

--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Is that ability to repent given equally to all people? Is it affected by our sinful natures?

Yes it is affected by our sinful natures, and no it is not given equally to everyone. Everyone has that ability, but it is affected by many things, both inherited and environmental, that can increase or decrease it.

This is why it is important to try to teach children well and raise them in a nurturing and moral environment. Similarly it is why it is important to try to improve ourselves, because changes in us are passed hereditarily on to our children.

In other words, both improvement and its opposite are possible over long periods of time.
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Do we have to repent for everything to receive life abundant, or only some things? What percentage of my sins must I repent for? Do I have to really, really mean it? Or can I just be vaguely sorry?

To repent is to change and improve. This can be a little or a lot. More is better.
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
If repentance is something we do of our own free choice than it is just another work. It is the thing we must do to choose heaven and save ourselves.

We do it as if from our own power, but we acknowledge that it is really God's power. We actually have no power. It is not just another work.
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
If repentance is the work of the grace of God, freely given to us, then we are back to the original question: Universalism or Double-Predestination?

No we're not, because we are free to accept or reject God's grace. We accept it by changing our ways, as if of our own power. God then imputes those changes to us, even though we did nothing of our own power. If we claim it for our own we are stealing from God - and this is another way of rejecting grace.

It's not that hard a problem, really. [Paranoid]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's a hard problem because you can't have it both ways like I think you'd like to, Freddy.

Your view, as I see it, is that God gives us the power to choose. Once the power is given to us, it's not his anymore, but ours. If it isn't ours, but still his, then he's responsible for our choices and not us. If we are responsible, than it is our power to choose.

You can't be held responsible for a choice that you don't also get credit for. If you choose wrong, you are held responsible but if you choose right you don't get any credit for that choice? That doesn't fit or work logically.

So either you get credit for it which makes it a "believe the right thing/do the right things to save yourself from hell" or you don't get credit so you don't get held responsible, either, and then it's up to God to choose.

That's the major dilemma.

-Digory

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
So either you get credit for it which makes it a "believe the right thing/do the right things to save yourself from hell" or you don't get credit so you don't get held responsible, either, and then it's up to God to choose.

That's the major dilemma.

No. I think you can have it both ways. The alternatives are that either human freedom is a myth, or God is limited.

People don't "save themselves." Rather God gives them the power to choose and act, and then imputes the results to them, even though it is not theirs. This is why it is called "grace" and a "free gift".

I don't see what is hard or contradictory about that.

Certainly everyone *feels* as though they choose and act from their own power. They also *feel* as though they are responsible for what they do.

This is also the consistent biblical point of view - people are blamed or blessed according to their beliefs and actions.

At the same time the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God is the only source of power. "For without Me you can do nothing" (John 15.5).

So it is consistent with both common sense and the Bible.

The alternatives of either predestination or limiting God have many more problems with them.

Faith alone is not really a different solution either, since it has the same element of God giving the choice and then attributing the result to the person. If God can give people the power to believe, He can also give people the power to act.

So I think that you can have it both ways. This is also the common sense viewpoint of people all over the world. We are responsible for what we do, and yet all power and merit resides in the divinity and none in ourselves.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Faith alone is not really a different solution either, since it has the same element of God giving the choice and then attributing the result to the person. If God can give people the power to believe, He can also give people the power to act.

OK. But all you're saying is that Gods gives people the Power to turn towards Him. And that it's impossible to turn to Him without that Power.

But therefore, if any given person doesn't turn to Him, it must be because He didn't give that person that Power. Because surely He'd give everyone the Power to believe if He wanted to...

Honestly, I'm struggling to understand how, in a straightforward "believe or not" situation, the one choice can be completely down to God and the other can be completely down to us. That's not free will, because it only gives us the credit for the decision if it's the wrong one...

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Precisely. If God saves us, it's his doing. If we block that salvation, it's our doing. Where's the problem?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Precisely. If God saves us, it's his doing. If we block that salvation, it's our doing. Where's the problem?

If it's purely our choice to block salvation, how can it not be our choice not to block salvation?

If I choose to dam a river, it is purely my choice to dam it. But surely if I choose not to dam that river (while having the power so to do), the fact that the river continues to flow is also down to me...

[ 26. December 2005, 16:32: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The river flowing is due to the water in the river, the shape of the riverbed -- a thousand other things besides you. Your choice not to block it plays very little role in its flowing. Sure, not NO role, but not nearly the role that your choice to block it plays in its NOT flowing, should you block it.

I like to liken salvation to a person trapped in a well. Suppose there's a person trapped in a well. They have a harness but their line has broken. God throws down a new line and says, "Just snap the fastener to the ring on your harness and I'll haul you up." If you refuse, then your not being saved is quite entirely your fault. If you get saved, well yes you did some work in snapping the fastener to the ring, but if you went about bragging how you hauled yourself up out of the well, you would be guilty of absurd hubris.

It's not an equal thing. Why is it so important to you to make it an equal thing?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
It's not an equal thing. Why is it so important to you to make it an equal thing?

It's not "making it an equal thing" that's the issue. It's that so many people take the line that we can't take any credit for our salvation, but we take all the credit for our damnation.

It just reminds me too much of being at work, where with anything I do well the credit is claimed by my boss but with anything I do badly the blame is laid on me...

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm sure people are trying to safeguard the fact that our salvation is by God's power and not our own. Clearly (to someone from my faith tradition) the Reformation went too far in that direction. And of course Pelagius went too far in the other direction. It's like our contribution is 1, and God's is אo. (That's meant to look like Aleph naught, which is the first cardinality of infinity) If you compare the two, our contribution is mighty mighty small. Not zero, but still not within screaming distance of
0.00000000000000000001%

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Mousethief, I'm happy to grant you that our contribution to our salvation is about 0.00000000000000000001%. But if the lack of that 0.00000000000000000001% is sufficient to damn us, then is it not a pretty damn important 0.00000000000000000001%?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's important in the sense that it's a sine qua non, yes. I can grant that.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
So either you get credit for it which makes it a "believe the right thing/do the right things to save yourself from hell" or you don't get credit so you don't get held responsible, either, and then it's up to God to choose.

That's the major dilemma.

No. I think you can have it both ways. The alternatives are that either human freedom is a myth, or God is limited.

People don't "save themselves." Rather God gives them the power to choose and act, and then imputes the results to them, even though it is not theirs. This is why it is called "grace" and a "free gift".

<snip>

So I think that you can have it both ways. This is also the common sense viewpoint of people all over the world. We are responsible for what we do, and yet all power and merit resides in the divinity and none in ourselves.

Well, I know you can explain it as such, but it doesn't solve the problem that Marvin has alluded to--that you get blamed for your mistake but you get no credit for your choice.

I understand that allowing people to experience choice + consequence is healthy for learning while living our lives. But to allow our earth-bound choices to affect our eternal disposition is far less merciful, isn't it? How are people to really know how their decisions will affect them after death? Pick a religion and hope it's right? Pick a Swedenborgian philosophy and hope he's right about doing works like Jesus supposedly commands and then hope that's enough to make you desire good things after death and then that will be your own heaven? How many good works will be enough to guarantee that you will have good desires and be on the good path after death? How many bad deeds or selfish acts are enough to solidify your bad path journey after death? If these numbers are indeterminate, it seems like we live a very fragile, fear-filled life just hoping we have the right disposition going for us--wishing and praying that we've got the right momentum to roll us in the right direction after death.

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

 - Posted      Profile for Niënna   Email Niënna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It seems to me that we - we humanity (christians and non-christians alike) are really good at Missing The Point.

We debate over it. We argue over it. We fight over it. We kill for it.

But do we really understand it?

Jesus came to bring life and light to us. He came to free us. He did not come to condemn us.

I, for one, am totally grieved that Christians who have believed and taught about hell have used as a means and instrument for crippling-fear and domination. This type of view comes from not understanding the purpose of God.

The purpose of God is redemption. To bring people into health and healing.

However, I also believe it is a reality some refuse God's kingdom of light and healing.

John 3:19 says "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."

God will not force them to be reconciled. That is hell.

--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But, Professorkirke, it's not really as complex as all that. Matthew 25 makes it clear that what we will be judged on is how well we feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, and so forth. These things are part of the universal moral beliefs of all of humanity, as CS Lewis shows in the appendix of his book The Abolition of Man. Who can get to the judgment and say, "Well I didn't realize it was wrong to neglect the poor"?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That would seem to put a heck of a lot of people in hell--I've passed a lot of beggars without giving them a drop of food, haven't given to many clothes away, and have visited zero prisoners in my life.

Perhaps I need to get started?

-Digory

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The problem I have is this.

Firstly, if it's all about Faith, then works don't matter at all. No matter what your works are. If you have the right faith you can be as evil as you like and you'll be Saved.

Secondly, if it's all about works, then faith doesn't matter at all. No matter what your faith is. As long as you feed the poor (etc), it doesn't matter if you sacrifice goats to Satan on Sundays.

And thirdly, if it's all about God, then surely it doesn't matter what faith or works you have/do on Earth. If He wants to, He's going to save you even if you regularly kick small children on your way to the coven. And if He doesn't, it don't mattter how many poor you clothed or masses you attended.

I think we can all agree that the real Truth is somewhere in the middle of the three. But surely if it's in the middle then can we at least admit that we can do something to aid our own Salvation? Surely it's not all up to God?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I think we can all agree that the real Truth is somewhere in the middle of the three. But surely if it's in the middle then can we at least admit that we can do something to aid our own Salvation? Surely it's not all up to God?

Marvin, I think that Mousethief said it pretty well. It's the simple belief of almost everyone in the world - turn away from evil, and turn towards good, and all will be well.

We are looking for the philosophical framework which supports that simple and universal belief. It is especially the Christian awareness that all power resides in God alone that complicates this.

As I said, I think the solution is that God gives us the power to choose, and imputes the results of our choices to us - whether good or bad. It is simply a device for making us free, and making that freedom a reality, as opposed to an appearance.

I'm not sure I understand why this means that we are blamed for bad choices but not given credit for our good choices. We are the ones who live with the results either way - so I don't see what you mean.

But those who love God willingly give Him the glory, attributing nothing to themselves. Those in hell are obsessed with themselves, and don't willingly give glory to anyone. This is practically the whole point. People who don't focus on themselves, or claim credit, are able to find happiness. Self-centered people, on the other hand, struggle in the quest for satisfaction.

It's not a matter of doing many works or believing exactly the right thing. There are lots of factors involved in being a kind, decent and productive individual. It's about being the kind of person who helps people in need - not the stereotypical beggar on the street, but all the people in each person's life with their various needs. God wants a population that is able to play nicely together, work productively together, and intelligently assist one another as they are able.

As Mousethief says, it's not complicated. It's just a matter of getting past the objections that stand in the way of what most people take for granted.

[ 28. December 2005, 01:55: Message edited by: Freddy ]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It's the simple belief of almost everyone in the world - turn away from evil, and turn towards good, and all will be well.

I agree. (Even if we don't always understand what "well" entails.)

quote:
It's not a matter of doing many works or believing exactly the right thing. There are lots of factors involved in being a kind, decent and productive individual. It's about being the kind of person who helps people in need - not the stereotypical beggar on the street, but all the people in each person's life with their various needs. God wants a population that is able to play nicely together, work productively together, and intelligently assist one another as they are able.
I agree here too. Where we probably disagree is that I believe we all are able to play nicely, work together, and intelligently assist one another. I think we all do this sometimes, and we all fail to do this other times. Some people may end up in situations that make them less willing to work toward these goals, but I don't believe God will hold these people responsible for the situations that they ended up in, because we all fail in these ways. So at the end of it all, I think we'll be given the chance to regain our unblemished nature of desiring the good goals mentioned above, leaving us all to choose heaven.

quote:
As Mousethief says, it's not complicated. It's just a matter of getting past the objections that stand in the way of what most people take for granted.
The complicated bit comes when people begin to say, "It's simple, if you do good on earth you get to be in heaven, but if you do bad on earth or don't believe the right things on earth, you end up in eternal conscious torment for all of eternity!" That's not a simple or logical explanation.

-Digory

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
God wants a population that is able to play nicely together, work productively together, and intelligently assist one another as they are able.

Is this not the second of the options in my previous post?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Teapot
Shipmate
# 10837

 - Posted      Profile for Teapot     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
God wants a population that is able to play nicely together, work productively together, and intelligently assist one another as they are able.

Work productively? That sounds a long way from "take not gold with you" or "foxes have holes..." etc...

Is not toil the curse of leaving eden, and a light yoke not the gift of returning to love?

--------------------
No I am NOT short and stout! But I will be happy to accept one of each at a pub :)

Posts: 608 | From: In a shrubbery! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Is not toil the curse of leaving eden, and a light yoke not the gift of returning to love?

Is all work toil? What is a yoke? Christ said his yoke is light, not that it is nonexistent.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Is not toil the curse of leaving eden, and a light yoke not the gift of returning to love?

Is all work toil? What is a yoke? Christ said his yoke is light, not that it is nonexistent.
That's right. Don't forget that in Eden Adam and Eve spent their time tending the garden:
quote:
Genesis 2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
Happiness in life is intimately connected with usefulness. The heavenly existence, both in this life and the next, is about being of service to God and one another. This is because life flows from God into function, since function is essentially something spiritual, and spiritual life only flows into spiritual things.

It does seem as though heaven ought to be a place of complete rest, and that "work" would have no meaning there. But true rest is doing what you enjoy, whereas "work" is the struggle to do what you do not love, or what you are not yet able to do well and enjoy.

An important part of the character of hell is that people there are not interested in doing productive things, only in serving themselves. Therefore the labors they are forced into are not enjoyable to them, and when they have the opportunity they do nothing except to fulfil their desires.

So Jesus' burden is light, and following Him takes away our much heavier burdens.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
God wants a population that is able to play nicely together, work productively together, and intelligently assist one another as they are able.

Is this not the second of the options in my previous post?
Well, sort of. I forgot to mention that the core idea is that it is what is in your heart that counts. This is why Jesus was able to tell the thief on the cross that he was headed for paradise. He was able to judge the man's real intentions.

So it's not quite "works" We don't "earn" heaven. Rather it is the state of your heart that has been developed over a lifetime of believing in God and doing His will - or things that are either closer or farther away from that ideal. God forms you according to your response to Him - whether you directly know Him or whether you instead merely love the same goodness that He, in essence, is.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Where we probably disagree is that I believe we all are able to play nicely, work together, and intelligently assist one another. I think we all do this sometimes, and we all fail to do this other times. Some people may end up in situations that make them less willing to work toward these goals, but I don't believe God will hold these people responsible for the situations that they ended up in, because we all fail in these ways. So at the end of it all, I think we'll be given the chance to regain our unblemished nature of desiring the good goals mentioned above, leaving us all to choose heaven.

Wouldn't that be great. [Angel]

Yes, it is certainly possible that there aren't really people who, in the long run, will freely choose self-centered and worldly desires and actions over loving God and the neighbor. So it is certainly possible that someday everyone will be able to play nicely together and work to everyone's mutual benefit.

Scripture, however, seems to say that this is a more optimistic view of humanity than is realistic.

It's a great attitude, though. Certainly, when working with people it is the attitude we have to take. God loves everyone, and we should not judge anyone. Everyone is going to heaven, as far as we know. It is wrong to look at anyone and think "that person is damned."

So maybe it is really more Christian to view humanity in terms of universal salvation.

For myself, though, I'm not sure that confidence in my own eventual salvation no matter what would be a good idea. [Biased]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So, big question time.

For those of us who are still here debating this issue, have we at least come to an agreement that the traditional model of hell as a place where all those who don't believe in Jesus will end up for an eternity of unescapable, conscious torment --- that doctrine is false and riddled with error?

We may disagree about our solution to the problem, but we all agree the problem exists, right?

-Digory

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

 - Posted      Profile for Niënna   Email Niënna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
So, big question time.

For those of us who are still here debating this issue, have we at least come to an agreement that the traditional model of hell as a place where all those who don't believe in Jesus will end up for an eternity of unescapable, conscious torment --- that doctrine is false and riddled with error?

We may disagree about our solution to the problem, but we all agree the problem exists, right?

-Digory

Uh, I still believe in hell. And that people will go there. And it probably pretty unpleasant in general. It makes a whole lotta sense to me. I don't find it false or riddled with error.

People want their own way. I don't think that will change after death.

--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What JoyfulSoul said.

More's the pity.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Uh, I still believe in hell. And that people will go there. And it probably pretty unpleasant in general. It makes a whole lotta sense to me. I don't find it false or riddled with error.

People want their own way. I don't think that will change after death.

But Joyful, you missed what I said. I know some of us still believe in hell. But I thought we'd come to some minor agreements re:

1) Is hell eternally mandated (if you choose to leave you cannot)?

2) Is hell a place where people go because they didn't believe the right things about God?

The general consensus from those of us who'd been discussing the topic seemed to be that, if there's a hell, then:

1) Those who are in hell are there because they choose to be apart from God, and should they choose God at any time, their stay in hell would be over.

2) People end up in hell because they choose to maintain bad or ungodly lifestyles, where selfishness, greed, etc. corrupt the heart's desires so much that their evil desires continue into the afterlife and create their hell (or some variation thereof).

So hell still exists, people go there, and it is still unpleasant.

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Progradior
Apprentice
# 10832

 - Posted      Profile for Progradior   Email Progradior   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
So, big question time.

For those of us who are still here debating this issue, have we at least come to an agreement that the traditional model of hell as a place where all those who don't believe in Jesus will end up for an eternity of unescapable, conscious torment --- that doctrine is false and riddled with error?

We may disagree about our solution to the problem, but we all agree the problem exists, right?

-Digory

Note my tag line. To what extent (if any) do you think the writer of the Theologia Germanica has a solution there?

--------------------
Progradior

"Nothing burns in Hell save self-will" (Theologia Germanica)

Posts: 11 | From: near York, UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

 - Posted      Profile for Papio   Email Papio   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by kempis3:
You really want to go to heaven where all those fundies are enduring 24/7 etc "heroin" highs?

Hell is going to be farrrr more interesting -- even the conversations will be more interesting.

The days of being frightened by the after-life are way gone.

If the fire mentioned in 'The Lake of fire' Is literal fire.I can't imagine anyone having conversations of any sort interesting or not.
As I said, if hell exists than there is no such thing as a loving a holy God.

If there is a loving and holy God then there is no such thing as Hell.

And, frankly, being in sound mind blah blah blah, I would rather burn in hell for ever than worship the God that the fundamentalists serve. If that God exists, then the only way which is compatable with human dignity is to stand against Him to the bitter end because He is morally inferior to every human being that has ever existed - no matter how twisted.

--------------------
Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page

Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

 - Posted      Profile for Papio   Email Papio   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
God wants a population that is able to play nicely together, work productively together, and intelligently assist one another as they are able.

Is this not the second of the options in my previous post?
So far as I can see: Yes.

If God will save everyone than your beliefs and behaviours are not a theological issue. They may be an issue for ethics or philosophy, but theology should butt out.

--------------------
Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page

Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031

 - Posted      Profile for Luigi   Email Luigi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am curious as to whether those who believe in a hell, believe that any of their really close loved ones have died and gone there.

This belief seems to be one of those ideas that is affirmed but the believer always manages to hold it at arms length.

All the people I know who believed in hell quickly adapted their beliefs when a convinced non-Christian they really loved, died.

Some persuaded themselves that their loved one had had a death bed conversion. Or that God would 'save' their loved one because of their faith rather than the views of their loved one who'd died. But the most common change seems to be a far less convinced view of hell in any traditional understanding of the idea.

Certainly I would never have had children if I'd taken my earlier belief in hell, really seriously. Life after all would be a curse.

With you all the way Papio

Luigi

Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

 - Posted      Profile for Papio   Email Papio   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Certainly I would never have had children if I'd taken my earlier belief in hell, really seriously. Life after all would be a curse.

It certainly seems to me that, if Hell exists (which it doesn't) then having children is just about the vilest act of immorality that one can imagine.

--------------------
Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page

Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

 - Posted      Profile for sharkshooter     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Certainly I would never have had children if I'd taken my earlier belief in hell, really seriously. Life after all would be a curse.

It certainly seems to me that, if Hell exists (which it doesn't) then having children is just about the vilest act of immorality that one can imagine.
Letting them (or, anyone) go there without having had the opprtunity to choose heaven, is much more vile.

--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
I am curious as to whether those who believe in a hell, believe that any of their really close loved ones have died and gone there.

There are several answers to this.

One is that it is wrong to assign anyone to hell. This is why terms like "Go to hell" and "Damn you" are traditionally considered blasphemous. Anyone you know is therefore in heaven, as far as you are concerned.

Another is that being a "close loved one" is inconsistent with what hell is all about. If someone is close or loved they are therefore in heaven. Closeness and love is what heaven is about.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Certainly I would never have had children if I'd taken my earlier belief in hell, really seriously. Life after all would be a curse.

It certainly seems to me that, if Hell exists (which it doesn't) then having children is just about the vilest act of immorality that one can imagine.
Letting them (or, anyone) go there without having had the opprtunity to choose heaven, is much more vile.
What exactly does this mean, SS? I'm not following.

-Digory

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
As I said, if hell exists than there is no such thing as a loving a holy God.

If there is a loving and holy God then there is no such thing as Hell.

I agree with you about the fundamentalist idea of hell.

It is easy to say that a loving God would never allow there to be a hell. The idea has obvious appeal.

But how does that work? Do you think that the behaviors described in the Bible as sinful will not exist in the afterlife?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason™

Host emeritus
# 9037

 - Posted      Profile for Jason™   Author's homepage   Email Jason™   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
If God will save everyone than your beliefs and behaviours are not a theological issue. They may be an issue for ethics or philosophy, but theology should butt out.

Only if you assume that beliefs and behaviors are only good for getting you to heaven after you die, and that Theology is only about where you go after you die.

If, instead, you believe that Theology is how we relate to God here and now, and that right beliefs and behaviors are good for making life here and now better, and that God prescribes the best possible life for each of us, then all of a sudden Theology is intimately connected with our beliefs and behaviors as a vehicle to effecting social justice, etc.

-Digory

Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
If, instead, you believe that Theology is how we relate to God here and now, and that right beliefs and behaviors are good for making life here and now better, and that God prescribes the best possible life for each of us, then all of a sudden Theology is intimately connected with our beliefs and behaviors as a vehicle to effecting social justice, etc.

Very nicely put. Thank you.

What would the world be like if people did not act this way? Not much fun. [Disappointed]

Conversely, if everyone lived by what God prescribes, life would be heaven on earth.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

 - Posted      Profile for Niënna   Email Niënna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
But Joyful, you missed what I said. I know some of us still believe in hell.

[Hot and Hormonal]

quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
The general consensus from those of us who'd been discussing the topic seemed to be that, if there's a hell, then:

1) Those who are in hell are there because they choose to be apart from God, and should they choose God at any time, their stay in hell would be over.

I just don't find that idea consistent with scripture. The idea that repentence is possible after death.

i.e.

"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (hebrews 9:27)

"Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. " (Hebrews 12:14-17)

I don't know what happens after death, at all. But from my reading, judgement happens. I don't think it changes.

quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
2) Is hell a place where people go because they didn't believe the right things about God?

Yeah, I don't know about this. If the right things are humility and a smidgeon of faith - then I think that's all you need because that's what the thief on the cross near Jesus had. I think that we Christians often make salvation something really complicated (I do this too [Hot and Hormonal] [Hot and Hormonal] ) - but it is probably much simpler than what we understand it to be.

Thanks for trying to make a consensus. It is helpful to see where we are and where we've come from.

quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
I am curious as to whether those who believe in a hell, believe that any of their really close loved ones have died and gone there.

That's a really good point, Luigi. That's why I'm heisant to say yeah - everyone who doesn't believe what I believe is going to go through eternal torment. First of all, I'm not God, I don't know what he sees. Secondly, I'm just trying to sort and figure things out. I'm quite aware that I don't know very much. One thing I have observed is that experience seems to transform theology.

I completely agree with Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
One is that it is wrong to assign anyone to hell. This is why terms like "Go to hell" and "Damn you" are traditionally considered blasphemous. Anyone you know is therefore in heaven, as far as you are concerned.

Amen to that.

--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

 - Posted      Profile for Niënna   Email Niënna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
As I said, if hell exists than there is no such thing as a loving a holy God.

If there is a loving and holy God then there is no such thing as Hell.

And, frankly, being in sound mind blah blah blah, I would rather burn in hell for ever than worship the God that the fundamentalists serve. If that God exists, then the only way which is compatable with human dignity is to stand against Him to the bitter end because He is morally inferior to every human being that has ever existed - no matter how twisted.

Thank you so much for saying this, Papio.

I'm going to try to respond to this but forgive me because I already know that I'm going to have a hard time trying to coherently put words to some ideas.

John 17 has a huge theme of unity. Us being in God, Jesus being in God, God being in God & etc.

One thing that is annoying for me is that the bible has a lot of metaphors of marriage and sex to explain or express or represent the beauty of unity and oneness and togetherness or something between God and man (song of songs, hosea, some of paul's letters & book of revelations & etc). Me not being married or having had sex before- well, it makes everything confusing and I don't quite understand it...

But one thing that has helped me understand the strange idea of some type of metaphysical or mystical unity of God being in us and us being in him has been Hinduism.

There's a lot of beautiful things about Hinduism and a couple of things that really grab my attention is the idea of Brahma (or brahmin) and the atman (soul/spirit). From my very, very limited knowledge and understanding, the idea is ourselves are united in this Grand Self (which is the Brahma). I must confess that I value this notion that people willingly surrender their selves and in the end form a greater thing then the selves would be apart. There are many different strands of Hinduism - I remember reading about one interpretation is each does not get obliterated by being united in the Brahma but instead is enhanced by being united.

For me, I see hell as not wanting to join in the union of love. Apart from the Brahma is incomplete Self and that must be hell. Again, I don't see it as god sentencing people to eternal torment...I kind of see as people not willing to give themselves up and be apart of something greater and so they end up in torment because they are not united with the greater good.

I know that my theology is very floofy and not very coherent [Hot and Hormonal] . But I had to add my two cents in anyways. [Hot and Hormonal]

--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sump Pump
Apprentice
# 10853

 - Posted      Profile for Sump Pump     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What if you're a non-observant Jew who dabbles a little in Buddhism and a little in New Age mumbo jumbo?

I'd really like to know! If I'm going to Hell, I should pack my cruisewear! I may as well look snappy while I'm being eternally damned.

Posts: 25 | From: Moneyapolis, MiniSoda | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792

 - Posted      Profile for CrookedCucumber     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
As I said, if hell exists than there is no such thing as a loving a holy God.

If there is a loving and holy God then there is no such thing as Hell.

For my part, I believe that atheism is a more rational and compelling belief system than any that postulates a benevolent God that will nevertheless condemn a person, any person, to eternal torment. Maybe a long torment in the most pernicious cases, but surely not eternal torment.

However, I don't think it is incompatible with the idea of a benevolent God that a person should have to endure a certain amount of torment if it is for his own good in the longer term and that good cannot be accomplished any other way. Maybe it is impossible for a person to be ready for Heaven until he has experienced a certain amount of Hell (or Pugatory, or whatever). As somebody else said, perhaps Hell is what being made ready for Heaven feels like. It's an open question, of course, why an all-powerful God cannot make a person Heaven-ready without the Hell stage, but maybe He can't. In short, this view of Hell is torment, but not eternal.

I also tend to think that it does not compromise the idea of a benevolent God if Hell is a state that people remain in of their own, fully-informed free choice. This, I think, was essentially CS Lewis's concept of Hell. I suspect that a Germanic, fire-and-brimstone Hell would not fit in this model, however -- who would choose that? For Lewis, Hell was essentially like life but with the good bits taken out. As GM Hopkins has it, the damned are ``their sweating selves; but worse''. For Lewis, the damned remained damned because they chose their sweating selves with all their vices rather than union with God. Conceivably, people could remain in Hell indefinitely, of their own free choice. This vision of Hell is not torment, but it is (at least potentially) eternal.

But where it all goes a bit pear-shaped for me is that I can't really see why God needs to allow a person absolute free will -- absolute freedom of choice -- right up to the bitter end. What is so special about free will that it merits being treated with such reverence by God?

Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools