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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Will God allow anyone to go to hell?
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
I am curious as to whether those who believe in a hell, believe that any of their really close loved ones have died and gone there.
There are several answers to this.
One is that it is wrong to assign anyone to hell. This is why terms like "Go to hell" and "Damn you" are traditionally considered blasphemous. Anyone you know is therefore in heaven, as far as you are concerned.
Another is that being a "close loved one" is inconsistent with what hell is all about. If someone is close or loved they are therefore in heaven. Closeness and love is what heaven is about.
Freddie - I really just don't get why you think the first is a credible position. You seem to be arguing that the circle is squared through deliberately living in denial - as far as I am concerned I should think that everyone I know is in heaven. The problem with hell for me are the emotional resonances that arise out of it. You appear to be quite shamelessly arguing that we should ignore these problems and 'pretend' that they don't touch us on any significant level. (To be honest any faith that seeks to intentionally live in denial isn't worth following.)
Your second response means what exactly? That people go to heaven because of someone else's desires. Do others go to hell because they haven't got enough Christian friends?
Another problem with your position that you mentioned some posts back is when you rather too easily divide humanity into goodies and badies. And say that the goodies go to heaven and the baddies go to hell.
Most of the people I know are somewhere in the middle - which brings me back to an earlier point I made and that is that you make heaven a distinctly unappealing place for most of humanity, because it is somewhere between the traditional understanding of heaven and the traditional understanding of hell.
From my point of view these are just some of the problems with your 'let's make hell more acceptable' campaign.
Luigi
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Freddie - I really just don't get why you think the first is a credible position. You seem to be arguing that the circle is squared through deliberately living in denial - as far as I am concerned I should think that everyone I know is in heaven. The problem with hell for me are the emotional resonances that arise out of it. You appear to be quite shamelessly arguing that we should ignore these problems and 'pretend' that they don't touch us on any significant level.
Luigi, I don't think that it is denial or pretending to say that you don't know whether people you know are going to heaven or hell. It is customary everywhere in the world to speak well of others, to try to put a good interpretation on their actions, and especially not to speak ill of the dead. I have yet to go to a funeral where people suggested that the deceased will probably rot in hell.
At the same time, I agree with you that in some cases predicting heavenly happiness for very loathsome people really amounts to denial and pretending. In those cases a reasonable person could say that if in fact they actually are as they appear it is hard to see how they will manage in heaven. Even this, I agree, is a rare thing.
The truth is that most people live pretty decently, and we have no way of knowing what goes on inside their hearts. So it is rightly considered to be a bad thing to presume to judge them.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
(To be honest any faith that seeks to intentionally live in denial isn't worth following.)
Agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Your second response means what exactly? That people go to heaven because of someone else's desires. Do others go to hell because they haven't got enough Christian friends?
The point was just that people in heaven love each other, and are loved by those around them. On the other hand people in hell are not like this.
So if you love someone and feel close to them there must be some reason for it. It is hard to love and be close to people who are unkind and self-centered.
It is natural, therefore, that if you love someone and feel close to them, then you would have real trouble picturing them in hell.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Another problem with your position that you mentioned some posts back is when you rather too easily divide humanity into goodies and badies. And say that the goodies go to heaven and the baddies go to hell.
Most people in the world think that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. It seems simple enough.
At the same time I agree that this seemingly simple distinction is not really simple at all. Every person is different, so the nature of their joy or unhappiness is unique. The traditional picture of heaven as a garden and hell a pit of fire is inadequate and unrealistic.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Most of the people I know are somewhere in the middle - which brings me back to an earlier point I made and that is that you make heaven a distinctly unappealing place for most of humanity, because it is somewhere between the traditional understanding of heaven and the traditional understanding of hell.
Yes, because the traditional understandings are caricatures that are hard for people to see as real and believable. I believe that heaven and hell are real places that are not so different from this world - and that the joy and suffering there are not so different from what we experience here.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
From my point of view these are just some of the problems with your 'let's make hell more acceptable' campaign.
Not more acceptable, just more believable and real.
The torment of living among people who are unconcerned about other people's welfare, and who may also be foul-minded, angry, vengeful, aggressive, cruel and violent is more real, in my opinion, than lakes of fire and little men in red suits with horns and toasting forks.
Even more, the unhappiness of being driven by our own self-centered desires, which can never be satisfied, is something that resonates with me more than that of punishment imposed from above.
I'm sorry to give the impression that I'm trying to present a more palatable view of hell.
It is palatable only in the sense that people remain in that life if in their minds the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. The advantages are that they can do as they please and don't have to be filled with thoughts of love and service to God and the neighbor.
It seems reasonable to me that a loving God would allow people to do as they wish, even if what they wish is not inherently joyful. I understand that not everyone would see it that way.
The problem, as I see it, is that alternative ideas, whether universalism or denial of any afterlife, are more problematic than this more tradtional belief. Do you see it differently?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
Freddy - if I can just highlight what I consider your position at its most untenable:
quote:
Most people in the world think that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. It seems simple enough.
I stopped believing in this sort of thing when I was about 8. Indeed I think that Jesus debunks the idea that the world can be divided into loathsome people and good people. See his comments about those who hate and those who murder.
In fact I don't agree with the assertion that most people think this at all. There is a children's book that deals with the whole problem of good people getting into heaven and bad failing. Most 11 years olds I have come across can see the problems with this way of thinking.
To explain. When is someone sufficiently loathsome to be consigned to hell and when are they just good enough to get into heaven? Wherever that line is drawn there must be some people who fall just the right side of it and some who fall the wrong side of it.
Very unsatisfactory.
Secondly the fact that many choose not to seriously consider any negative possibilities when someone has just died merely suggests that humans are generally very good at living in denial. I see little merit in encouraging self-deception any more than most of us already do. But that is what your take on hell effecitvely does.
Also I am not condemning them to hell or saying I wish they went there I am merely being honest with myself and acknowledging that one or more of those I truly love may well end up there and does for me a God who oversees such a system isn't someone I would want to share eternity with.
What do I think is a more acceptable take on this subject? Well to be honest I would prefer to examine the subject without any alternatives in mind for the moment. An idea should be credible in and of itself not just the best a very bad lot.
So I would prefer atheism to the options you are trying to serve me up with.
By the way I do think that Jesus just might have been articulating some truths that really do have coherence. But I am not willing to do as much intellectual ducking and diving to defend him.
The possibility that Jesus was a poorly thought through charlatan must always be seriously considered. If he is to be respeceted it must be because he actually taught profound truths not because he asserted nonsense that we have to go along with because lots of other people think he taught it. Or because he was the son of God everything he taught is automatically beyond question. (Of course I am not attacking trinitarian thinking here).
Luigi
[ 01. January 2006, 19:49: Message edited by: Luigi ]
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Freddy - if I can just highlight what I consider your position at its most untenable:
quote:
Most people in the world think that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. It seems simple enough.
I stopped believing in this sort of thing when I was about 8. Indeed I think that Jesus debunks the idea that the world can be divided into loathsome people and good people. See his comments about those who hate and those who murder.
Sure, there are plenty of people who don't believe this sort of thing. I don't know what you mean that Jesus debunks this idea. What passages?
As I understand it, Jesus is saying that good people go to heaven and bad people to hell in these commonly referenced Scriptures:
quote:
"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Revelation 22.12-15
"For unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of the heavens." Matthew 5:20.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12.35
"No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19.16
"At the completion of the age angels will go forth and separate the wicked from out of the midst of the righteous." Matthew 13:49.
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" Matthew 7.21-23
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love." John 15.6-10
I realize that there are other possible understandings. But the most common one is that Jesus is saying that those who are good, that is, who believe in Him and obey His teachings, will enter heaven. The wicked will not.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
In fact I don't agree with the assertion that most people think this at all. There is a children's book that deals with the whole problem of good people getting into heaven and bad failing. Most 11 years olds I have come across can see the problems with this way of thinking.
I taught 11-year-olds for many years. Most of them, in my experience, do think this and are unaware of the problems.
I also think that opinion polls demonstrate this. For example, a recent Newsweek poll says that 79% of Americans believe that good people go to heaven, regardless of their faith. This and other polls show that similar numbers of Americans believe in hell. This is the common belief of Christians worldwide.
Even outside of Christianity, most people in Islamic countries, in Africa, Asia and South America have beliefs like this. Even those who believe in reincarnation have this same basic idea - that the good find happiness and the evil find its opposite.
As far as I know, only Europe, and perhaps Japan, have majority populations who do not believe in God, heaven and hell, or that the good go to heaven and the wicked to hell. Or maybe someone has better figures than I do about this.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
To explain. When is someone sufficiently loathsome to be consigned to hell and when are they just good enough to get into heaven? Wherever that line is drawn there must be some people who fall just the right side of it and some who fall the wrong side of it.
This is why I say that I don't accept the simplistic caricature of heaven and hell that Christians often describe.
I think, instead, that the spiritual world is a real place much like this world. When people enter it they progressively seek out people like themselves, and areas that appeal to them.
Since there is no actual time and space in the spiritual world, people's interests and desires are what separate or attract them. The resulting geography, and the natural consequences of these divisions, are what delineate the "places" we refer to as heaven and hell.
So it's not as if people just squeak over lines. People go exactly where they wish to go, among people they wish to be with. If they don't like it there they can move. Of course, the nature of evil is said to be that eventually it limits your options. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Secondly the fact that many choose not to seriously consider any negative possibilities when someone has just died merely suggests that humans are generally very good at living in denial. I see little merit in encouraging self-deception any more than most of us already do. But that is what your take on hell effecitvely does.
I don't think so, but I understand what you mean. You may be right.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Also I am not condemning them to hell or saying I wish they went there I am merely being honest with myself and acknowledging that one or more of those I truly love may well end up there and does for me a God who oversees such a system isn't someone I would want to share eternity with.
OK.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
So I would prefer atheism to the options you are trying to serve me up with.
OK. It may well be a better option.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
The possibility that Jesus was a poorly thought through charlatan must always be seriously considered.
Yes. Good point. I agree. There is no point in accepting the Gospel message if we don't see real wisdom in it.
I am right with you in thinking that if we don't see a loving God behind ideas like this, then we shouldn't accept them. I appreciate the holes you are poking in my limited understandings here. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
Can I add a few ideas in this general area?
It seems to me that the Bible infers, and in a few cases directly states, that Heaven is entered only by faith (we could start a long thread here on what faith is, but it's certainly not the same as "belief" - see epistle of James);
and also infers, and in a few cases directly states, that the qualification is good works (as in fair play and helping those in need, rather than as in following a set of rules);
and occasionally infers, and in a sawyer's handful of instances directly states, that all will eventually arrive in Heaven (universalism).
I'm not going to list the references, it would be a very long list, nearly as tedious to read as to construct, and you probably know them all anyway.
Now it's quite obvious that if you choose your references, you can "prove" any of the above. If you look at all of the references, you are left with three statements which are contradictory; only one of them (if any) can be true. It's tempting the think "well that's final proof that the Bible is not infallible - it contradicts itself". There is, however, another way of looking at the problem.
By way of illustration, let's look at Paul's letter to the Romans. Paul spends much of this letter greatly concerned about the fate of those Jews who refused to accept Christ (9 1-5). By the time we get to 11 v25, after much heavyweight (even by Paul's standards) theology, he is able to state that all Israel will be saved - and also, that God will have mercy on all men. He than breaks into a little hymn of praise in vv 33-36. And that's just what it usually is taken to be, a hymn of praise, but it's much more than that. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the knowledge and wisdom of God! How unsearchable his judgements, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord?....". In other words, possibly: you theologians who think you are so clever are just way behind God's plan. You talk about things which are beyond human understanding! Obvious, really.
So none of these ideas - justification by faith, or by works, or universalism - actually hold water. The arguments may look solid to us (or not!) on the basis of purely human logic, but God's ideas are way beyond ours.
For me, the clinching argument that the God who created the universe, and who loved us so much that he gave up his life for us, is someone I can trust to get it right. He can provide a solution which is just and fair and logical and loving. If we can't quite see what it is, that is simply a limitation in our own vision.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
For me, the clinching argument that the God who created the universe, and who loved us so much that he gave up his life for us, is someone I can trust to get it right. He can provide a solution which is just and fair and logical and loving. If we can't quite see what it is, that is simply a limitation in our own vision.
I love that thought. And welcome to the Ship!
It does seem like that is the best starting point.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
Freddy, anyone who can make quote:
"No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19.16
mean: "good people go to heaven bad people go to hell", can make language and logic work in ways I don't understand.
I suspect I am wasting my time here. After 12 pages you still seem unaware of any substantial weaknesses / contradictions in your position. Am I right?
Luigi
[ 03. January 2006, 05:31: Message edited by: Luigi ]
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Freddy, anyone who can make quote:
"No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19.16
mean: "good people go to heaven bad people go to hell", can make language and logic work in ways I don't understand.
Good point. I don't think I have any new and original understanding of that passage.
Only God can truly be said to be good or righteous. Our responsibility is to do as He teaches. This is what is often called "goodness" or "righteousness" on our parts, even though we can't properly be called good or righteous.
This is a common understanding of this passage. I realize that there are other ways of seeing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
I suspect I am wasting my time here. After 12 pages you still seem unaware of any substantial weaknesses / contradictions in your position. Am I right?
I am aware of weaknesses.
The main one is that there is an obvious contradiction between a God of love and one who is willing to condemn people forever to hell.
This seems too big for many people to get past. Isn't this how you see it?
Do you, on your part, see the weaknesses/contradictions in your position?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Freddy, anyone who can make quote:
"No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19.16
mean: "good people go to heaven bad people go to hell", can make language and logic work in ways I don't understand.
I suspect I am wasting my time here. After 12 pages you still seem unaware of any substantial weaknesses / contradictions in your position. Am I right?
Luigi
Well, Luigi, the thing is, that verse says something similar to what Freddy is saying, doesn't it?
People who keep the commandments enter into life. Heaven as Freddy and I believe is a place/state of perfect human goodness, experiencing all of the good that God created us to experience. What this verse seems to be saying is to enter into that kind of goodness, to enter into Life to the Fullest, you must keep the commandments.
There are other ways of reading it, obviously (including the way I would probably read it). But this seems to be a fairly straightforward way of seeing the verse, I must say.
-Digory
[Oops-- I just realized this was my 1000th post!]
[ 03. January 2006, 15:14: Message edited by: professorkirke ]
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
[Oops-- I just realized this was my 1000th post!]
Congratulations! And they have been good quality contributions. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Dear blackbeard
Welcome to the Ship. What an excellect post!! I agree with every word of it.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Cupitt's arrow
Apprentice
# 10849
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Posted
Have been reading this thread with interest. I have to say, however, that I gave up on the existence of hell a long time ago. In fact, I gave up on the existence of a heaven too.
In this day and age these concepts are an anachronism. The only authority that can be invoked to shore up a point of view is scripture itself; and this, as we can see from following this thread, is inconclusive!
Also, any conclusions that may be made ( as unlikely as this seems) can only be believable by living in a 'biblical-matrix' - Quite rightly outside of the secular reality in which most of us inhabit.
Might I suggest that you expend your energies on giving a thought to how we may give flesh to, and indeed make real, the invocation: Thy Kingdom come.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cupitt's arrow:
Might I suggest that you expend your energies on giving a thought to how we may give flesh to, and indeed make real, the invocation: Thy Kingdom come.
Welcome Cupitt's arrow! Nice thoughts.
I agree that this is what we need to do.
However, I don't see how thoughts about heaven and hell can be anachronistic. People die just as surely as they ever did. What happens after that is a legitimate matter of interest.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Cupitt's arrow
Apprentice
# 10849
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Posted
Thank you for my welcome. It is appreciated.
Yes, of course people continue to die. But I think that for many people the concepts of heaven and hell are defunct. Many, myself included, no longer live their lives in the shadow of the carrot and stick mentality of heaven and hell. Death is seen as a fullstop, and in this sense the notion of a hereafter is an anachronism.
It is entirely logical that we should move on, or evolve from this state of mind. I believe that it is the way forward for the Church - a Church, which I may add, that I love very much.
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universalist
Shipmate
# 10318
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Posted
I don't read anything in the Bible about "free will"...I DO read what St. Paul called "will worship". A faulty "choice-based model of sanctification", not a faith-based one. People then, as a few today were elevating personal "will" above God's power to change it, a form of idolatry.
But damn! Some of you got me doing it! I am theologizing and intellectualizing. Would God grant that i would not so much live in my head!
The worst abuse of theologizing happens as we argue about such things as our "choice" regarding the means by which we are "saved", will some finally reject God? Do some end up in Purgatory or Hell? How clinical we can become in our attempts to state that which is God's relentless passion for us! The answer to all of this is in our hearts, not so much in our minds....God will finally burn away in us and everything that which doesn't look like Him/Her!
In our tendency to be clinical, we can miss the point. Our salvation is secure by the irrevocable mandate of God to save us! It's a passionate love story that happens to each of us, and it works for all because God is faithful!
Again the marriage analogy. I fell madly in love with my wife some years ago. I was charmed by her "irresistible grace." I "chose" to marry her. Did she take my so-called "free will" away?
Not at all....she, by virtue of WHO SHE IS, "made me an offer i couldn't refuse". How much more is God able to do this? These human types are given that we may know God better...
Let's be about defining God for who God is, able to save and redeem his whole creation--a major tenet of his character and personality. Can we work to subvert all heretical doctrines of loss that besmirch God?
Posts: 66 | From: portland oregon | Registered: Sep 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cupitt's arrow:
Many, myself included, no longer live their lives in the shadow of the carrot and stick mentality of heaven and hell.
OK. That makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Cupitt's arrow:
Death is seen as a fullstop, and in this sense the notion of a hereafter is an anachronism.
It is entirely logical that we should move on, or evolve from this state of mind. I believe that it is the way forward for the Church - a Church, which I may add, that I love very much.
Most people worldwide continue to expect a life after death. Europe is almost alone in having a significant population who don't think this way. Meanwhile Christianity in Europe is declining rapidly, according to many. And it is spreading just as rapidly in other parts of the world.
Are you suggesting that this decline in Europe might be turned around by the evolution of belief away from things such as the life after death?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
I don't read anything in the Bible about "free will"...I DO read what St. Paul called "will worship". A faulty "choice-based model of sanctification", not a faith-based one. People then, as a few today were elevating personal "will" above God's power to change it, a form of idolatry.
Very interesting point.
It is true that "freedom" in the Bible is not always put the way that we often use it in these discussions:
quote:
John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Freedom here seems to be associated with abiding in Jesus' word, not choosing freely among alternatives.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
I fell madly in love with my wife some years ago. I was charmed by her "irresistible grace." I "chose" to marry her. Did she take my so-called "free will" away?
Not at all....she, by virtue of WHO SHE IS, "made me an offer i couldn't refuse". How much more is God able to do this?
We get very confused about our freedom.
I don't believe it makes us stupid or evil. Freedom gives us the power to choose what we all want--to be reunited with our God. Without this freedom we would remain slaves to sin.
If I went into a foreign prison camp and unhooked their chains, giving them free passage to escape, and if all of them did escape, would anyone complain that their free choice had been taken away? Instead, who would rejoice in their newfound freedom?
(This freedom can also include a new ability to be able to live as Jesus commanded, for Freddy's sake. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
If I went into a foreign prison camp and unhooked their chains, giving them free passage to escape, and if all of them did escape, would anyone complain that their free choice had been taken away? Instead, who would rejoice in their newfound freedom?
It depends on how comfortable they were in the prison, and how appealing the outside life you were offering them was.
Have you ever seen the Shawshank Redemption? I feel like the old librarian character in that film - OK, so maybe I'm in prison, but it's all I know. I might not be able to survive 'on the outside', and just end up hanging myself...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Cupitt's arrow
Apprentice
# 10849
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Are you suggesting that this decline in Europe might be turned around by the evolution of belief away from things such as the life after death? [/QB]
No, I am not suggesting this. But I do think that a Church which shows itself to be able to accomodate such views would be a more attractive proposition, and gain more respect, than one which doesn't. For some, that is.
As a Christian my first priority is not to make my church grow - by producing more Christians. But more to serve the wider community; to offer service and sanctuary when needed.
I think that the doctrines and creeds - which are all human-made - are an unnecessary hurdle to any who merely wish to love and to be loved, and be part of something bigger than themselves.
I am, perhaps, naive in this understanding. Perhaps it is sheer folly of me. But, nevertheless, my considered opinion is one of absolute freedom of thought and expression.
Posts: 38 | From: Scotland | Registered: Dec 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cupitt's arrow:
But more to serve the wider community; to offer service and sanctuary when needed.
I think that the doctrines and creeds - which are all human-made - are an unnecessary hurdle to any who merely wish to love and to be loved, and be part of something bigger than themselves.
I am, perhaps, naive in this understanding. Perhaps it is sheer folly of me. But, nevertheless, my considered opinion is one of absolute freedom of thought and expression.
I am in complete agreement with you. I think we (including myself) often make things sooo complicated that we forget the basic idea: to love God and to love and care for our neighbors. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Your posts are most excellent, welcome to SOF!
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
Again the marriage analogy. I fell madly in love with my wife some years ago. I was charmed by her "irresistible grace." I "chose" to marry her. Did she take my so-called "free will" away?
Not at all....she, by virtue of WHO SHE IS, "made me an offer i couldn't refuse". How much more is God able to do this? These human types are given that we may know God better...
Look, I'm glad you are in love with your wife and in love with God. Good for you. I like God a a lot but sometimes it very, very, very difficult, to be quite honest. I just wanted to introduce the idea that not everyone might find God as irrestible as you portray. God has called me to do many, many hard things (ie, "Take up your cross and follow me" and "you must lose your life that you might find life"; "die to yourself and love your neighbor as yourself"; "who do YOU say that I am" etc) and it is not always as fun and brilliant and wonderful and lovey-dovey all the time. In fact, in my experience, it is quite painful to follow Christ - doubly so since everything is based on the invisible, intangible, the unseen, and unknown.
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
Let's be about defining God for who God is, able to save and redeem his whole creation--a major tenet of his character and personality. Can we work to subvert all heretical doctrines of loss that besmirch God?
You know what? I am in complete agreement with you here. I think God is all about saving people but he certainly goes about in very weird ways (forgive me, Lord, but you are weird). He wants love - but not compelled love. Love that suffers long and love that is given freely in spite of the cost.
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
I don't read anything in the Bible about "free will"...I DO read what St. Paul called "will worship". A faulty "choice-based model of sanctification", not a faith-based one. People then, as a few today were elevating personal "will" above God's power to change it, a form of idolatry.!
I'm not sure if we can find common ground. I believe that God treasures free will. Look at the crap in this world around you. Its free will gone mad.
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
But damn! Some of you got me doing it! I am theologizing and intellectualizing. Would God grant that i would not so much live in my head!!
I am blessed by your point of view, though and I appreciate your heart and passion and insights. I am thankful that you post here.
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
The worst abuse of theologizing happens as we argue about such things as our "choice" regarding the means by which we are "saved", will some finally reject God? Do some end up in Purgatory or Hell? How clinical we can become in our attempts to state that which is God's relentless passion for us! The answer to all of this is in our hearts, not so much in our minds....God will finally burn away in us and everything that which doesn't look like Him/Her!
In our tendency to be clinical, we can miss the point. Our salvation is secure by the irrevocable mandate of God to save us! It's a passionate love story that happens to each of us, and it works for all because God is faithful!
Amen to God's faithfulness and love. Boo on clinicalness (I know I am guilty of this ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) ). Again, thank you for posting here and I greatly appreciate your insights and love for all people.
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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universalist
Shipmate
# 10318
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Posted
"Look, I'm glad you are in love with your wife and in love with God. Good for you. I like God a a lot but sometimes it very, very, very difficult, to be quite honest. I just wanted to introduce the idea that not everyone might find God as irrestible as you portray"
Really, i do need to apologize to you and others who may have misunderstood...In no way do i passionately love God; in fact, half the time it seems I'm pissed at God. The other half of the time I'm considering whether i even LIKE God. (for example, when i heard this morning that the miners WEREN'T alive after all, a finger went up to God, not a prayer) So i'm in the soup with everyone else on this point. There's simply too much evil happening in the world for me to believe with any real conviction that God is irresistible.
That being said, I hold this belief in "hope"; a part of God's glory that "shall be revealed (to us) in due time".
Posts: 66 | From: portland oregon | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
quote:
Originally posted by universalist:
Again the marriage analogy. I fell madly in love with my wife some years ago. I was charmed by her "irresistible grace." I "chose" to marry her. Did she take my so-called "free will" away?
Not at all....she, by virtue of WHO SHE IS, "made me an offer i couldn't refuse". How much more is God able to do this? These human types are given that we may know God better...
Look, I'm glad you are in love with your wife and in love with God. Good for you. I like God a a lot but sometimes it very, very, very difficult, to be quite honest. I just wanted to introduce the idea that not everyone might find God as irrestible as you portray. God has called me to do many, many hard things (ie, "Take up your cross and follow me" and "you must lose your life that you might find life"; "die to yourself and love your neighbor as yourself"; "who do YOU say that I am" etc) and it is not always as fun and brilliant and wonderful and lovey-dovey all the time. In fact, in my experience, it is quite painful to follow Christ - doubly so since everything is based on the invisible, intangible, the unseen, and unknown.
Yes, Joyful, I believe what universalist is saying here is that one day, when all is revealed to us as it truly is, at that point God will become irresistable and we will not reject his grace.
This always begs the question -- "What's this life for?"
There are many different answers to that, though. (Perhaps for another post, or even another thread. Who knows.)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dwynwen
Shipmate
# 3900
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Posted
I find this to be a very interesting thread but I wonder about the words often mentioned such as choice, freedom, denial, faith, salvation etc.
Justification by faith presupposes knowledge of God and of Christ our Saviour and of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If faith is gifted by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit then faith and virtue must be a learning experience. How many are denied this knowledge?
We cannot know the truth of belief in God unless we know of God for it is not what is believed but rather that by which truth is believed which empowers virtue in the way we live and love (or hate).
This leaves the many who do not know God destined for consignment to where? We who think that we know God have a choice but awareness of faith is so sadly lacking in our homes and schools today. We can only hope that God in His goodness knows those who do not know Him and will judge them accordingly.
The baptised have the hope of 'knowing' through the teaching of their godparents. They will eventually be at liberty to choose to deny God or to have faith.
Choices between good and evil are a fundamental human capability but salvation is not deemed to be an important consideration for most people.
Maybe we should bring back the teaching about the aerial toll houses whereby judgements are made after our death about our temporal life, and ultimately our fate about whether we are fit for heaven or must go with the demons who may win the day and consign us to hell.
Prayers to our guardian angels are always helpful but we have a huge responsibility to our children to teach them awareness of the possibilities waiting for them in eternal life.
"To know the road ahead, ask those coming back." (A Chinese proverb).
And there are a few people who have had out of the body experiences still alive and ready to tell the tale.
Peace, Dwynwen.
Posts: 149 | From: Manchester | Registered: Jan 2003
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Yes, Joyful, I believe what universalist is saying here is that one day, when all is revealed to us as it truly is, at that point God will become irresistable and we will not reject his grace.
[unserious tangent]
You are so hopeful ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) . Maybe we should exchange names? I think you should get an A+ in faith & hope at the end of this life. (just kidding).
[/end unserious tangent]
Returning to the love tangent introduced by Universalist...
...I don't agree that "love" is irrestible. Surely, all of us have been the object of someone else's affection in this world and not returned it? Surely, a part of love is voluntary?
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
This always begs the question -- "What's this life for?"
Bringing light into a dark world no matter how dark it looks. Participating in bringing God's kingdom on earth (isaiah 58 is one of my favorites)... & etc. Start life now instead of latter. Life being = discovering who God is and living in that knowledge & love.
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
There are many different answers to that, though. (Perhaps for another post, or even another thread. Who knows.)
Anybody interested?
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Maybe I'm alone in this, but um...
Dwynwen... what?
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
There are many different answers to that, though. (Perhaps for another post, or even another thread. Who knows.)
Anybody interested?
Well if you insist...
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Another question, unrelated so far.
If you believe people are going to hell if they don't do/say/think/believe x, and you believe evangelism helps to get people to do/say/think/believe x, how can you justify spending a single minute, including ones on this very Ship, doing anything BUT evangelism (besides things necessary to survival, obviously, like eating and sleeping)??? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Just a thought I've been thinking on.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
well, duh. I believe that every believer's life is "evangelism." There's a was a really cool dude who lived long ago... who said something along the lines of "Spread the gospel. Use words if necessary."
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
well, duh. I believe that every believer's life is "evangelism." There's a was a really cool dude who lived long ago... who said something along the lines of "Spread the gospel. Use words if necessary."
St. Francis of Assisi, perhaps? Someone more knowledgable than me will come along and correct me very shortly, I am sure of that.
But is going to see "Wedding Crashers" the movie considered evangelism, even if you go by yourself? I mean, practically, can everything be evangelism?
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
~~~Joyfulsoul's Theology 101~~~
Prelude (some fancy word that means beginning or sommat):
This is my best guess at Life, the Universe,and Everything. Probably tomorrow I'll come up with a better idea.
1. Something about Incarnational, meaning allowing God to work in us to bring his purposes about
a) Why?
Because life is dark sometimes and God wants to transform dead into living.
I guess that is what I might take a stab at what "salvation" means - bring life into dead & dark places. Transforming life. Allowing catapillars to become butterflies. That's my best guess at what the gospel means.
2. How do we do this?
No clue.
3. No, really.
Well, I guess by inviting God, allowing God to transform my life, he can help me bless other people and so forth.
4. Shouldn't you be handing out tracks to people & etc and tell 'em they're all destined for the fiery furnace?
a) that's a stupid idea.
b) I don't know other people's eternal destinations
c) that's not what jesus was about
d) That's assuming that I'm responsible for other people's salvation. Jesus said tell 'em the good news (not try to "save" people). I've seen horrendous damage done in trying to "save" someone from hell. Its not good to think that we (christians) are such hot shots when most of the time we're idiots.
Does that help?
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
I'd much rather watch Batman Begins. the Wedding crashers looks like a dumb movie to me.
Everything is for glory & worship of God.
Evangelism - witnessing to the Good News (even when we are sad, too - its okay to be Sad for JAY-Sus, I have discovered) - is part of that worship.
So, whether we eat or drink, we do this all for God (I think is a verse somewhere, too).
[more stuff]
[ 05. January 2006, 05:16: Message edited by: Joyfulsoul ]
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Hello all! I've been away from a computer for week or so, and have just been getting up to speed on this thread again.
It is amazing how much ground this thread has covered, and I think that it is because the concept of hell is tied up with the concept of salvation, and salvation is at the heart of many Christianities. There have been many interesting and varied viewpoints expressed and I have learnt a lot about your varied beliefs from reading them.
I have a question for those who believe in the possiblity of eternal separation from God/hell/eternal damnation.
However you conceive it, hell is not a place I want to go.
Now, as a universalist, I can simply place my trust in the saving power of God.
But let me assume for a moment that I am not a universalist. This means that I cannot trust that God will under all circumstances save me. Somehow, I can lose my salvation (or fail to gain it). Somehow I can reject God, the result of which will be hell (literally).
Please advise me - what should I do in order to have assurance of my salvation?
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Now, as a universalist, I can simply place my trust in the saving power of God.
But, see, even as a non-universalist, I do that too.
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
But let me assume for a moment that I am not a universalist. This means that I cannot trust that God will under all circumstances save me. Somehow, I can lose my salvation (or fail to gain it). Somehow I can reject God, the result of which will be hell (literally).
Please advise me - what should I do in order to have assurance of my salvation?
The fact that you turn to God is basta. Enough.
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
But let me assume for a moment that I am not a universalist. This means that I cannot trust that God will under all circumstances save me. Somehow, I can lose my salvation (or fail to gain it). Somehow I can reject God, the result of which will be hell (literally).
Please advise me - what should I do in order to have assurance of my salvation?
Become a Calvinist?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Allowing catapillars to become butterflies. That's my best guess at what the gospel means.
I like this idea. I really do. We're all like caterpillars now, and will become buterflies in the next life.
Well, maybe some of us will be moths. But what the hey
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Now, as a universalist, I can simply place my trust in the saving power of God.
But, see, even as a non-universalist, I do that too.
But your trust in God saving you cannot be total, can it? After all, you believe that there are circumstances in which God will not save you...
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
But let me assume for a moment that I am not a universalist. This means that I cannot trust that God will under all circumstances save me. Somehow, I can lose my salvation (or fail to gain it). Somehow I can reject God, the result of which will be hell (literally).
Please advise me - what should I do in order to have assurance of my salvation?
The fact that you turn to God is basta. Enough.
This site is full of people arguing over what phrases like this mean. More specifically, I have (hopefully) a long life ahead of me. Maybe I will suffer some horrific loss, succumb to arrogance, or simply change. Maybe by the time I die I will be an atheist. Maybe I will not always turn to God. If I do not turn to God then I have no salvation, and my current trust in God is misplaced.
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Please advise me - what should I do in order to have assurance of my salvation?
Become a Calvinist?
Since you seem an unlikely convert to Calvinism I am assuming that you believe that my quest for assurance of salvation is doomed, that I will never be in a position to completely be trusting that God will save me?
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Allowing catapillars to become butterflies. That's my best guess at what the gospel means.
I like this idea. I really do. We're all like caterpillars now, and will become buterflies in the next life.
Well, maybe some of us will be moths. But what the hey
And, unless you are all now universalists, some of us will neither be butterflies nor moths but will instead be miserable worms.
--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Please advise me - what should I do in order to have assurance of my salvation?
Become a Calvinist?
Since you seem an unlikely convert to Calvinism I am assuming that you believe that my quest for assurance of salvation is doomed, that I will never be in a position to completely be trusting that God will save me?
Demas, you know what happens when you ass-u-me, right?
I have a funny feeling Mousethief's answer to you will be something along the lines of, "Perhaps you should lighten up a little, Tiger." (Except MT's version will be much cleverer and even funny, perhaps.)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
And, unless you are all now universalists, some of us will neither be butterflies nor moths but will instead be miserable worms.
No, there will be all butterflies, but about 75% of them will be pinned to that little insect board while they're still alive, and they'll keep getting pinned over and over, for all of eternity.
But don't worry. They chose to be pinned.
(Oh come on, people. Lighten up, seriously!)
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
"Completely trusting that God will save me" seems to place "trust" in the wrong sort of thing (the outcome of a series of actions). We are meant to trust in God, not in any particular outcome.
I trust that God loves me and wants very much to save me, and is doing all She can to that effect. But I have no "assurance of salvation" because it doesn't just depend on God, it also depends on me.
Why is this "assurance" so important to you? What would you DO differently in your life with it, as opposed to without it?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Why is this "assurance" so important to you? What would you DO differently in your life with it, as opposed to without it?
Worry less.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Why is this "assurance" so important to you? What would you DO differently in your life with it, as opposed to without it?
Worry less.
So it's all about you? Salvation as egocentrism. Not on my radar.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
So it's all about you? Salvation as egocentrism. Not on my radar.
Well, you did ask.
What sort of answer were you expecting?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think I asked my question badly, and should perhaps have said something along the lines of, "What actions that you undertake in the course of your daily (or weekly or annual etc.) life would be changed if you had such assurance?".
I wasn't really thinking of worry as something one "does".
It also seems if not counterproductive, then at least pointless. If God is doing all SHE can to save you, then what are you worrying about? That you will reject so great a salvation? Rather than worry about that, better to get on with the business of cooperating with God's saving power (or to put it biblically, "work out your salvation in fear and trembling"). For it is God who works in you -- if you will let Her.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I think I asked my question badly, and should perhaps have said something along the lines of, "What actions that you undertake in the course of your daily (or weekly or annual etc.) life would be changed if you had such assurance?".
Hm. I'm not really sure that there's anything of that ilk that I'd change if I had such assurance, to be honest.
quote:
I wasn't really thinking of worry as something one "does".
OK. I do think of it that way, but there's no point us going off on a tangent about whether emotions and such are something we 'do'.
quote:
It also seems if not counterproductive, then at least pointless. If God is doing all SHE can to save you, then what are you worrying about? That you will reject so great a salvation?
More that I've got it wrong. I mean, if I've got the right idea about God then I'll probably be fine, but if I'm wrong there's a very good chance I'm toast. That worries me. A lot.
quote:
Rather than worry about that, better to get on with the business of cooperating with God's saving power (or to put it biblically, "work out your salvation in fear and trembling"). For it is God who works in you -- if you will let Her.
I think this thread stands as quite a good example of a few people trying to "work out their salvation in fear and trembling", actually
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I think this thread stands as quite a good example of a few people trying to "work out their salvation in fear and trembling", actually
Well I hope this isn't ALL they're doing to work out their salvation. "I was hungry and naked and in prison, and you argued about me on an Internet discussion site."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I was thinking "work out" in the same way that one would "work out" a maths problem. But your way's good as well...
ETA a thought - if religion was a subject at school, would it be mostly theory-based or mostly practical-based? Maybe that's for another thread...
[ 05. January 2006, 15:12: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
ETA a thought - if religion was a subject at school, would it be mostly theory-based or mostly practical-based? Maybe that's for another thread...
Depends on if the instructor is an Anglican or an Orthodox. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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