Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:
So it's all about you? Salvation as egocentrism. Not on my radar.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
And carrying the burden of "I don't know if I'll be saved eternally or damned eternally, but I suppose I should love this God anyway" is quite a heavy load to bear every day, don't you think?

---

quote:

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It's precisely why most churches make a way for you to be sure.

Just pray this prayer...
Follow these commandments...
Come to church regularly...
Accept Jesus...

---

quote:

---

Wouldn't it be great if you could STOP worrying about it SO THAT you could get on with the working out portion (of clothing those naked people and feeding those hungry people, etc.)?

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
And carrying the burden of "I don't know if I'll be saved eternally or damned eternally, but I suppose I should love this God anyway" is quite a heavy load to bear every day, don't you think?

---

Not particularly. I don't think of it as a load at all. God loves me and wants to do all She can to save me. Why is that a load?

---

Posted                    

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
Maybe I'm alone in this, but um...


Dwynwen... what?

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
You may be confident enough in your own abilities to not worry about your salvation but I would not be so egocentric...

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
You may be confident enough in your own abilities to not worry about your salvation but I would not be so egocentric...

---

You're treading on call-to-hell territory here.

I'm not confident in my abilities. I don't think it has anything to do with my abilities.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:
I don't believe in any "tests". I believe in God. I believe that I have to cooperate with God, which I believe I'm doing. At that point I'm doing all I can, so what's to worry about?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
You've already made it clear that all God can do She is doing, and it is not enough.

You say you are doing all you can to cooperate with God.

Are you confident that all you can do + all God can do is enough?

If so, you are confident in your ability to cooperate with God and thus gain salvation.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:
Twisting words comes so naturally for some people. I give up. If it's so vitally important for you to believe that I am "confident" in my salvation, then go right ahead. Clearly nothing I say can change your mind.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:
Hurts when the shoe's on the other foot, don't it?

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quote:

---

Salvation is a process that is worked out between us and God. The one way to be sure you aren't saved is to reject God categorically. I can't imagine doing that.

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quote:

---

If I did, then perforce salvation would no longer be meaningful to me, and it wouldn't bother me.

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quote:

---

Worrying because I can't have some fictional fairy-dust "certainty" is worse than a waste of time.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
Sounds like you are pretty sure of your ability to not reject God to me. In fact your whole post sounds fairly confident, including the witness of your spriritual director who also thinks you're on the right track.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
All the son did was turn to the father.

That's all it takes.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
So, if I cannot be certain, should I worry or be fatalistically cheerful? Or is there another option?

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
So, if I cannot be certain, should I worry or be fatalistically cheerful? Or is there another option?

---

Yes. Turn to the Father.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief
Because worrying isn't going to change anything. Who by worrying can add to his height, etc?

---

I believe I am doing all I can to bring up my children properly, but still I worry. That is, I regularly wonder whether I am doing all I can; I wonder whether I could do better. To that extent I am `worried'. Am I neurotic about it? I don't think so. But so long as I think that I may be able to do better, and am not doing so, I worry.

The difference about worrying about how I raise my children, and worrying about my height, is that I know that I can't change my height, but I don't know that I can't raise my children better.

I don't know if `worrying' about salvation is more like worrying about your height, or worrying about whether you're raising your children properly

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
If I turn to my father, is my salvation assured? If so, then I am certain of my salvation. But wait, I have been told above that I cannot be certain! Which is it?

Maybe I cannot be certain whether I have turned to the father or not? In which case my question stands - if I cannot be certain, should I worry or be fatalistically cheerful? Or is there another option?

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
I believe I am doing all I can to bring up my children properly, but still I worry. That is, I regularly wonder whether I am doing all I can; I wonder whether I could do better. To that extent I am `worried'. Am I neurotic about it? I don't think so. But so long as I think that I may be able to do better, and am not doing so, I worry.

The difference about worrying about how I raise my children, and worrying about my height, is that I know that I can't change my height, but I don't know that I can't raise my children better.

I don't know if `worrying' about salvation is more like worrying about your height, or worrying about whether you're raising your children properly

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Why the worry?

God is good, God loves you. Things are not that complicated.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Why the worry?

God is good, God loves you. Things are not that complicated.

---

The worry is because many people on this thread are saying that God may be good and may love me, but my salvation depends on me turning to God, not just on the actions of God herself.

I am not worried about God's goodness, I am worried about my ability and inclincation to 'turn to the father'.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luigi:
Freddy, anyone who can make

quote:

---

"No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19.16

---

mean: "good people go to heaven bad people go to hell", can make language and logic work in ways I don't understand.

---

Good point. I don't think I have any new and original understanding of that passage.

Only God can truly be said to be good or righteous. Our responsibility is to do as He teaches. This is what is often called "goodness" or "righteousness" on our parts, even though we can't properly be called good or righteous.

This is a common understanding of this passage. I realize that there are other ways of seeing it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luigi:
I suspect I am wasting my time here. After 12 pages you still seem unaware of any substantial weaknesses / contradictions in your position. Am I right?

---

I am aware of weaknesses.

The main one is that there is an obvious contradiction between a God of love and one who is willing to condemn people forever to hell.

This seems too big for many people to get past. Isn't this how you see it?

Do you, on your part, see the weaknesses/contradictions in your position?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
I am worried about my ability and inclincation to 'turn to the father'.

---

Then you misunderstand.

It's not about putting faith in yourself.

God f*cking loves people and desperately desires to bring them into abundant life. He'll take any excuse you give just so he can work with you. Pathetic, isn't it?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
In your theology the thing standing in the way of my salvation is my own ability to turn to God. So I should either have faith in this ability or be worried that it will not be adequate.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
In your theology the thing standing in the way of my salvation is my own ability to turn to God. So I should either have faith in this ability or be worried that it will not be adequate.

---

Why? Why are those the only two options?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I guess that is why I think many "non-Christians" might be saved. 'Cause once you catch a glimpse that the world doesn't revolve around you - well, I think that's probably the beginning of a very helpful journey. I could be totally wrong, though.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
I am worried about my ability and inclincation to 'turn to the father'.

---

Then you misunderstand.

It's not about putting faith in yourself.

God f*cking loves people and desperately desires to bring them into abundant life. He'll take any excuse you give just so he can work with you. Pathetic, isn't it?

---

But you insist that not all people will offer excuses that God will accept. Why is this? Is it because those people are less able to offer excuses? Or are they 'bad' people, unlike my good self?

What is different about me that will enable me to offer an excuse to God?

What is there to stop me worrying that (like those other people you argue exist) I will fail to offer the required excuse? Apart, that is, from an innate belief that I am by luck or by virtue of my goodness and spirituality already on the right track? (I thank you, Lord, that I am not like other men).

You may set the entry requirements to salvation very low, but you are the one insisting they still exist and that not all measure up, not me.

In your theology the thing standing in the way of my salvation is my own ability to turn to God. So I should either have faith in this ability or be worried that it will not be adequate.

---

I'm totally not understanding you. I feel very dense and my apologies. (I know you have been saying the same things over again .)

I think God loves us and we are like prodigal sons. All we have to do is ask.

What's the problem?

--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I'm totally not understanding you. I feel very dense and my apologies. (I know you have been saying the same things over again .)

---

No no, the quality of your posts clearly shows that you're not dense (or, at least, no denser than me We're just all struggling with communicating from our different worldviews - part of the human condition, I'm afraid. The fact that I'm repeating myself shows my failure to find different ways to communicate

quote:

---

I think God loves us and we are like prodigal sons. All we have to do is ask.

What's the problem?

---

My problem is with the second sentence.

Unless you have seen the light and become a universalist then you believe that not all people will ask God and be saved through God's love.

Both you and Mousethief seem to agree that God cannot or will not make you ask, that it is up to you as an individual. It is therefore a test, a barrier, a hurdle, an impediment to my salvation. You've made it clear that you consider it a very small impediment, but that none-the-less not everyone will overcome it.

Some people will not ask God, will not turn to the father, and thus will not be saved by him.

On what basis would someone not turn to God? If you say that someone might reject God out of pride and arrogance, for example, then you are really saying that some people fail to attain salvation due to their wickedness. Isn't this just works based salvation? But what other motive would there be to reject God?

Also, what does asking God entail? Are you certain that you have turned to God?

Mousethief argues above (as far as I understand it) that you should just do your best and hope that it is enough to count as 'turning to God', so that God can do the rest and save you.

Personally I doubt that I will 'do my best' for the rest of my life. I certainly haven't so far. I am reminded of the young rich man, who had kept the commandments. Jesus deflates his pride by pointing out that even he hadn't done his best - he was unable to give all his money to the poor and follow Jesus.

So it is possible that my best efforts to 'turn to God' will not be enough - and I'm highly unlikely to be giving it my best efforts anyway. And if I understand you correctly, God cannot or will not make me turn to him - that initial turning or asking is up to me - so I can't just trust to God to save me.

So, I should either be confident that I will when needed 'turn to God' (but what is the basis for such confidence?) or I should be concerned about it.

--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
That anyone turns towards God is the work of God in that person's life/psyche/heart.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
If I am not able to reject God's work in my heart then we have answered the original question - God will not allow anyone to go to hell.

---

Thus we here will have refuted every religion on earth.

Haven't we established that of all Christian religions, only Unitarian Universalists hold to this position. Maybe someone can suggest others. Quakers?

It is an undeniably attractive position. Universal salvation. So why aren't there more universalists?

[ 06. January 2006, 08:28: Message edited by: Freddy ]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luigi:
Stanley Cohen who did a very detailed examination on the 20th century genocides, found that the vast majority of people in certain situations are capable of appalling brutality. The slaughter at My Lai reinforces this. Indeed my conviction for many years has been that on the wrong day and in the wrong context, I would be no less likely to behave in appalling ways than anyone else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luigi:
So this whole idea that humanity can be divided into the loathsome and the not loathsome – as you put it Freddy – I regard as naïve and contradicts much of what Jesus was about. Indeed many of those he mixed with were the loathsome of his society

---

quote:

---

]"31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left....46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25.31-46

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luigi:
Now that Matthew verse and why I can’t get close to buying your take. I accept the second half of the Matthew verse can be read as meaning ‘good people go to heaven’, but it makes little sense when put with the first part. If we put the two together the problem is clear.

"No one is good but One, that is, God. Good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell.” The only way I can make the second part work with the first part is if the second part is a corrective of the first part, which I don’t think you are arguing.

---

quote:

---

"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Revelation 22.12-15

"For unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of the heavens." Matthew 5:20.

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12.35

"At the completion of the age angels will go forth and separate the wicked from out of the midst of the righteous." Matthew 13:49.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" Matthew 7.21-23

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love." John 15.6-10

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luigi:
My belief that Jesus was probably saying something profound here is a weakness in my position I grant you. I am perhaps making too much of a presumption - he could of course have been as crass as those who interpret the verse as meaning ‘good people go to heaven’ seem to be assuming.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luigi:
In the end your determination to defend hell leads you to insist on humanity being divided into the loathsome and not, and then blurring the line for the next life.

---

If you read what is written on this Ship in Purgatory, or in Hell, virtually every thread is about correcting what people consider to be harmful understandings or behaviors. This thread is a good example.

In Hell, here on the Ship, this correcting behavior can be so vehement that you would think that lives hung in the balance. Yet this is just a recreational discussion board with no relation whatsoever to people's actual lives, except in terms of learning and advice.

I don't find it hard to believe that disagreements about these things can continue in the next life, or that the harm caused by what is "wrong" persists there. I don't see this as "blurring" any lines. Evil causes harm, and this harm persists as long as evil persists. The greater the harm, the more unhappiness it causes, and therefore the deeper the hell it inhabits.

It would be great to think that eventually everyone's ideas and actions can be "corrected", bringing everyone into the state of happiness that comes with loving God and the neighbor. I actually have my own version of this belief.

But if God can't bring us to agreement and harmony on this Ship, what makes you think that it can happen after death?

[ 06. January 2006, 09:39: Message edited by: Freddy ]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:
It is an undeniably attractive position. Universal salvation.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:
It is an undeniably attractive position. Universal salvation.

---

Yes, it's attractive.

But knowing what we do about human nature, is it really more attractive than a position that says we go to Heaven, but they (for pretty much any value of "they" you like) are damned?

After all, with universalism you have to accept that even your worst enemies, even those who would happily persecute, enslave or execute you, are as heaven-bound as you are. Quite a difficult position to hold, I would say...

---

Good point. It is so nice to think that the bad guys will get their just desserts.

Isn't the movie industry practically built on this concept?

So both sides have their attractions.

In fact I expect that people could hold both positions at once: "I will be saved no matter what I do, but you are a sinner and will be damned."

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:
Jesus mixed with people who were downtrodden, disrespected, and considered sinners. They were willing to hear Him and He taught them repentance.

There is not a page in the gospels, however, where Jesus does not condemn wickedness and those who perpetrate it. Maybe you could find a chapter in the gospels where Jesus does not do this.

---

quote:

---

Jesus is clear that He loves everyone, that He desires to gather everyone to Him, even that He will "draw all peoples" to Him (John 12.32). At the same time, it can't be said that He didn't divide humanity into "wicked" and "righteous."

---

So apparently Scripture alone isn't going to give us a definitive answer, huh?

quote:

---

I would think that we would want to explain Jesus' words in a way that is consistent with what He says elsewhere. There are many places where He effectevely says that the "good" are saved and the "wicked" are not.

---

And yet there are many places where he says "Neither do I condemn you" or where he withholds his judgment from prostitutes and tax collectors while speaking out against the people who were very righteous in their deeds (Pharisees and scribes). So though we all would want to explain Jesus' words in a way that is consistent with what He says elsewhere, it's probably more accurate to say that we'd want to explain Jesus' words in a way that is consistent with what we already believe.

quote:

---

Do you have ways of re-explaining each one of these. There are similar statements on every page of the gospels..

---

quote:

---

I also agree that He says things similar to this, such as that He will draw "all peoples" to Himself. I don't think, though, that He ever suggests that both the wicked and the righteous are saved..

---

quote:

---

But if God can't bring us to agreement and harmony on this Ship, what makes you think that it can happen after death?

---

Well let's hope that the actual presence of God is at least a little more impacting than our beloved Ship here!

-Digory

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:
Jesus mixed with people who were downtrodden, disrespected, and considered sinners. They were willing to hear Him and He taught them repentance.

There is not a page in the gospels, however, where Jesus does not condemn wickedness and those who perpetrate it. Maybe you could find a chapter in the gospels where Jesus does not do this.

---

No, no, no, Freddy. There is now NO condemnation in Jesus Christ. I don't think he condemns anybody. Think about the woman who is about to be stoned. "No one condemns you? Then neither do I condemn you." Condemn, in the New Testament, seems to suggest "physical death." That's an interesting way to look through the verses on condemnation.

---

quote:

---

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Matthew 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Matthew 23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mark 3:29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

---

quote:

---

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

---

quote:

---

Matthew 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13.41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
And the Good News, at the end, is that when you finally realize that you can't possibly attain a righteousness as great as Jesus' demands, when you're being chased by a pack of angry mobsters who wish to condemn you and you truly recognize your own guilt, when you find that you ARE condemned because you ARE found guilty...

Jeshua. (God saves.)

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:
I don't see anything in there about being condemned if we are not perfect. Jesus seems very tolerant of less-than-perfect people, such as the prostitutes and publicans, but quite judgmental about those who do not believe, who are cruel, who are self righteous and self-seeking.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:
I don't see anything in there about being condemned if we are not perfect. Jesus seems very tolerant of less-than-perfect people, such as the prostitutes and publicans, but quite judgmental about those who do not believe, who are cruel, who are self righteous and self-seeking.

---

Okay, so we have the less-than-perfects (LTPs) and the the self-righteous self-seekings (SRSSs).

If Jesus is tolerant of the LTPs, but judgmental toward the SRSSs, then what is he pointing out? Perhaps a belief, like you say, but certainly not good deeds or actions, right? The LTPs were actively living in "sin" while the SRSSs were following all of the rules, so to speak.

---

• 1. "they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
• 2. But all their works they do to be seen by men.
• 3. “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
• 4. For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
• 5. For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
• 6. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
• 7. For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
• 8. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
• 9. I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by professorkirke:
As long as you and others can see the other side as a possibility that can be derived from scripture, as opposed to being just a hopeful doctrine of wishful thinking with no scriptural or traditional foundation, then I am at least satisfied.

---