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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Will God allow anyone to go to hell?
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Still, I think equating grace to power is wrong. True, I think the fact that we are given grace energizes us to do good things, just like when your parents don't ground you when you come home late on Friday night, you are suddenly very willing to help around the house on Saturday. But that doesn't mean the grace WAS the power to do good things--it was simply part of the catalyst/motivation. Grace isn't some sort of super power that is bestowed on humans that allows them to rise from their sinful lives and do good things. Grace is when God takes our sinful selves and says, "I don't care about what you've done or who you've been, I accept you as my own." The "ability to walk in newness and re-birth," one might even say. [Biased]

Digory, this does make sense. I understand what you mean here. I agree that grace isn't some kind of super-power granted by God.

Maybe the question of what grace is, and what mercy means, is a central question here. What is actually the most loving way to behave towards the object of one's love?

Jesus does not take it as a given that people know what mercy is:
quote:
Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
Matthew 12:7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.

Is it merciful to call sinners to repentance? It is surely unmerciful to condemn the guiltless - but what does this say about the guilty? Is it merciful to fail to restrain the criminal?

I believe that God's love and grace towards all people is more about empowerment than erasing consequences. Or rather, it is about enabling the erasure of consequences through empowerment. Similarly, forgiveness is more about enabling change than about abrogating the results of our actions.

If you have the idea that all are guilty, and all deserve punishment, then grace and forgiveness will need to take the kind of form you are giving it.

I agree that all are utterly unworthy and powerless. I agree that of ourselves we tend towards wickedness. I agree that only God's power, love, grace, and mercy prevent us from casting ourselves into hell itself.

I don't agree, however, that this makes us guilty and deserving of punishment. We are victims of these tendencies, and God's mercy rescues us from them. We are therefore free to go with God's mercy and refrain from evil, or obey our innate tendencies and commit evil. The one leads us to heaven, the other to hell.

God's grace also means that we can do evil, and then later change our ways and our life. It means that we can reject God, and then later think better of it.

It doesn't work for me to say that God's grace means that no repentance or change is required. The Bible uniformly refers to the need for change. Grace is what enables it.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Jason™

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quote:
Originally posted by sugar mouse:
I recently read on a Christian Website...

Wait, wait, does this imply that you didn't think this was a Christian website??? [Eek!]

I'm so offended, really I am. [Biased]

-Digory

(Welcome aboard, sugar mouse.)

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by sugar mouse:
I recently read on a Christian Website that the only Unforgivable Sin was blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Upon reading this I was immediately overcome by the urge to shout out "the Holy Spirit is a bastard!"

Am i now damned for eternity?

Ditto Digory's outrage. [Killing me]

It makes you want to ask what blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is.

I would say that it is sinning and never repenting. [Biased]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by sugar mouse:
I recently read on a Christian Website that the only Unforgivable Sin was blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Upon reading this I was immediately overcome by the urge to shout out "the Holy Spirit is a bastard!"

Am i now damned for eternity?

Ditto Digory's outrage. [Killing me]

It makes you want to ask what blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is.

I would say that it is sinning and never repenting. [Biased]

Just to extend this tangent. [Biased]

The Holy Spirit is God's presence, which enlightens, vivifies, and enables you to repent, change, turn to Him, etc.

You can reject the Father because He is invisible to you. You can reject the Son because you might have a mistaken idea of Him. But you can't reject the Spirit, because that is goodness itself - the Spirit is the heart of the matter. Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit means to turn away from all goodness, and not to change.

The only reason that it can't be forgiven is that this position prevents repentance. Ignorance and misconceptions can be cleared up, but the deeply rooted rejection of what is good leaves no opening for future change.

I would doubt that it is possible for anyone to do this very completely in this world. I'm sure many would doubt that it is ever possible to do it.

The point of Jesus' words is not just to be mysterious about "the one thing that can never be forgiven", but to emphasize the importance of the "spirit" of things, or their real essence.

The Holy Spirit is God reaching deep down within you, or God as He is present everywhere and with everyone. Rejecting ideas is one thing, but rejecting this is a whole different category. On these boards, for example, people often express doubts about Jesus, or about God the Father, or about whether there even is a God. We all have incomplete and mistaken ideas, and this is very forgivable, according to Jesus' words here. We all do this to some degree, and it is part of the normal search to work things out.

But no one on these boards ever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit. No one ever rejects goodness, honesty and mercy themselves, or expresses support for torturing, maiming or destroying all of humanity and everything that exists. Not that someone couldn't theoretically take that position, I'm just not sure why anyone would.

So the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not a particular statement or action that is mysteriously unforgivable. It is a long term way of being that has the effect of utterly shutting out God - perhaps not even a way that is really possible. But it is a warning not to head in that direction, and to be mindful of the importance of the real spirit behind ideas and actions.

Maybe this isn't really a tangent, since if there is an eternal hell there must be some sense in which those there are not forgiven. Maybe Jesus' statement is a description of the condition of everyone in hell - that they have all sinned against the Spirit. Since God loves and forgives everyone, there must be some way of being that cannot accept this forgiveness.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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pimple

Ship's Irruption
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Freddy - I agree, but it sounds a bit long-winded; the circumstans in which Jesus mentioned the unforgiveable sin make it crystal clear what that sin is (he had been accused of using th Devil's power to effecta healing miracle).

So the one unforivable sin is to say or imply that something manifestly good (i.e. Godly) is evil. Given that we sometimes entertain angels unawares we really do need to watch what we say and think.

And Hell? Well, if you encounter God and call him the Devil, you may end up believing your own propaganda and, voila! you are in a hell of your own making. For ever? Hopefully not, but in that position, where can one look for correction? It must come direct from God, who must want reconciliation. But since one moment out of the sight of God is an eternity....

And I've ended up being more long-winded than you. Plus ca change.....

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by chemincreux:
Freddy - I agree, but it sounds a bit long-winded; the circumstans in which Jesus mentioned the unforgiveable sin make it crystal clear what that sin is (he had been accused of using th Devil's power to effecta healing miracle).

I think you're right. You said it better and more briefly. [Overused]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Jason™

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quote:
Originally posted by chemincreux:
Freddy - I agree, but it sounds a bit long-winded; the circumstans in which Jesus mentioned the unforgiveable sin make it crystal clear what that sin is (he had been accused of using th Devil's power to effecta healing miracle).

One small thing for me--few things found in the Bible make anything "crystal clear."

I like your definition, but I'm not 100% convinced it's the only or even best one.

(Nice to meet you though, chemincreux. Welcome aboard. [Smile] )

-Digory

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sugar mouse
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Well I am relieved to hear that I am not necessarily damned for eternity.

Although part of me was enjoying the feelings of reckless abandon - if I'm damned anyway then it doesn't matter what I do with the rest of my life.

And apologies, I should have said “another Christian website”

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by sugar mouse:
Although part of me was enjoying the feelings of reckless abandon - if I'm damned anyway then it doesn't matter what I do with the rest of my life.

I know what you mean.

Of course, in theory it's exactly the same if you're saved anyway [Big Grin]

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by sugar mouse:
Although part of me was enjoying the feelings of reckless abandon - if I'm damned anyway then it doesn't matter what I do with the rest of my life.

I know what you mean.

Of course, in theory it's exactly the same if you're saved anyway [Big Grin]

Yes. Isn't it interesting that we have figured out so many ways to make our actions inconsequential. [Disappointed]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Isn't it interesting that we have figured out so many ways to make our actions inconsequential. [Disappointed]

Hey, if people could eat as much chocolate as they wanted to and not get fat, I bet they'd eat a lot more than they do now!

It's the same principle, only instead of "fat" insert "damned". And instead of "chocolate" insert your temptation of choice [Big Grin] ...

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Jason™

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Isn't it interesting that we have figured out so many ways to make our actions inconsequential. [Disappointed]

Hey, if people could eat as much chocolate as they wanted to and not get fat, I bet they'd eat a lot more than they do now!
Do you really think so? The people I know, including myself, seem to eat quite a bit of chocolate as it is, even though we're told it makes us fat. (We're also told it can make you happy, it can cause acne, it can cause migraines, etc etc etc).

I just don't think we completely understand future consequences, bound to the present as we are.

-Digory

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Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Isn't it interesting that we have figured out so many ways to make our actions inconsequential. [Disappointed]

Hey, if people could eat as much chocolate as they wanted to and not get fat, I bet they'd eat a lot more than they do now!

It's the same principle, only instead of "fat" insert "damned". And instead of "chocolate" insert your temptation of choice [Big Grin] ...

It's not just the consequences. Regardless of the consequences, eating loads of chocolate (even if it won't make you fat) is indictative of a problematic internal imbalance.
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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Isn't it interesting that we have figured out so many ways to make our actions inconsequential. [Disappointed]

Hey, if people could eat as much chocolate as they wanted to and not get fat, I bet they'd eat a lot more than they do now!

It's the same principle, only instead of "fat" insert "damned". And instead of "chocolate" insert your temptation of choice [Big Grin] ...

Millions of dollars are spent each year on diet foods with that goal - of allowing us to commit nutritional "sin" without consequences.

How much would we be willing to spend on the spiritual equivalent?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Isn't it interesting that we have figured out so many ways to make our actions inconsequential. [Disappointed]

Hey, if people could eat as much chocolate as they wanted to and not get fat, I bet they'd eat a lot more than they do now!
Do you really think so? The people I know, including myself, seem to eat quite a bit of chocolate as it is, even though we're told it makes us fat. (We're also told it can make you happy, it can cause acne, it can cause migraines, etc etc etc).

I just don't think we completely understand future consequences, bound to the present as we are.

I don't think that we are that helpless. I think that we regulate our behavior all the time based on our understanding of the consequences. This is so ingrained in us that we hardly think about it. Would any of us claim that removing consequences would have no effect on human behavior?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
I just don't think we completely understand future consequences, bound to the present as we are.

Who said anything about the future?

The anticipation of results, effects, and consequences guides and shapes our behavior minute to minute. While it may be true that we don't necessarily understand these things, it is still true that we would have difficulty functioning for even a few minutes without feedback.

I'm pressing keys, but if I wasn't assured of predictable results I wouldn't do it very long. As it is, the expected words pop out on the page, and I am entertained.

Everything in life, big and small, works this way. Why talk if no words come out? Why complain if no one listens?

So as I go through each day attempting to achieve my goals, however spontaneous and poorly thought out, I reap the consequences of whatever I do or don't do. There is no escaping this. The consequences are not necessarily fair, consistent, or according to anyone's intention - but things happen, and they are not completely unrelated to what I do or don't do.

At what point in the moment-to-moment sequence of existence do things stop working this way?

I would say that they never do. They simply become more fair, consistent, and intentional.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Millions of dollars are spent each year on diet foods with that goal - of allowing us to commit nutritional "sin" without consequences.

How much would we be willing to spend on the spiritual equivalent?

If the negative results of spiritual 'overeating' were as well-known or certain as those of nutritional overeating, and if it were possible to create such spiritual 'diet foods', I'd be willing to bet it would be the leading industry in the world.

Imagine it - a small financial outlay to guarantee salvation regardless of your sins or character. Everyone would want it!

In fact, didn't there used to be a similar thing available back around the time of the reformation? [Devil]

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
In fact, didn't there used to be a similar thing available back around the time of the reformation? [Devil]

The thread on that is located just below!

Maybe we could come up with a plan to legitimize the idea in the minds of the paying public. I expect that this is the point of that thread, anyway. [Two face]

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Jason™

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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think that we regulate our behavior all the time based on our understanding of the consequences.

Of course we do. And our understanding, being time-based creatures, is not complete. So our choices in regulating our behavior are almost always wrong to some extent. How many medical journals have come out this year alone talking about the good effects of x and the bad effects of y, compared to last year's journals proclaiming the good effects of y and the bad effects of x?!?

Sometimes we may say, "I don't really care if I get fat, I'll eat chocolate." More often, I think, we say, "I'm not going to get fat from this one piece of chocolate." Because honestly, we're not really sure if we are.

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Who said anything about the future?

<snip>

So as I go through each day attempting to achieve my goals, however spontaneous and poorly thought out, I reap the consequences of whatever I do or don't do. There is no escaping this. The consequences are not necessarily fair, consistent, or according to anyone's intention - but things happen, and they are not completely unrelated to what I do or don't do.

Well first, anyone who has said anything about the word "consequence" necessarily implies the future, in that what I do NOW will affect what happens LATER. That's all I meant about "future consequences."

And yes, on earth we sadly must do our best to learn from past choices and try to predict what will happen later based on what has already happened. But it is quite the imprecise science, is it not? Perhaps try this, perhaps a little more of this, perhaps a little less of that...

I don't really count on that many of us "getting it right" or even on the right track, really. That may be a fundamental difference between myself and others. But for those who think it's possible to get on this right track, what separates those who do from those who don't? Choices, mainly? Based on the imprecise science I mentioned above?

-Digory

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
I don't really count on that many of us "getting it right" or even on the right track, really. That may be a fundamental difference between myself and others. But for those who think it's possible to get on this right track, what separates those who do from those who don't? Choices, mainly? Based on the imprecise science I mentioned above?

Yes, I admit that it is imprecise. And I agree that few really get it right.

I guess my take is that it doesn't need to be perfect to be OK.

We have, for example, a nice little discussion board here, the Ship, that works pretty well. It's not perfect, but it didn't just happen. It is the result of lots of choices made by numerous people. All of us who socialize here make choices as to what we say and when. Our comments have consequences. We can be warned, ridiculed, or even tossed. We can get bored and not participate.

My point is that most things in life are to some extent like this. Generally we get out of it what we put into it. At times some things in life can be so perfect that it is really thrilling.

Why shouldn't this kind of normal, natural existence go on forever?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

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Most societies across time and space are based on similar guiding moral principles: don't take your neighbor's wife, don't lie, don't steal...

It is very rare, though it does happen, that some societies promote cannabalism, lying, and thievery...papua new guinea comes to mind...but those societies tend disentigrate and end up destroying itself. cue long vitrolic speech about the eventual disentigration of our country and any others if lying/distrust becomes foundational in you s a.

C'mon, how can anyone argue that this talk about actions/consequences is like rocket science. For crying out loud. Its not.

Secondly, if I had a second point. I'm not a strict consequentialist. I think that even if you could steal or murder with impunity, without being sent to jail or hell - those actions would still be wrong and bad. there's some intrinsically problematic about a wrong action, regardless of the consequences.

--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24

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quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
It is very rare, though it does happen, that some societies promote cannibalism, lying, and thievery...papua new guinea comes to mind...

Just popping up to defend Papua New Guinea, which didn't really promote lying or thievery any more than any other similarily developed society. Also cannibalism was bound up with ritual and often respect - by eating parts of a dead but respected enemy you could gain his powers; the Fore tribe of PNG ate deceased loved ones as an act of respect.

Sure, it wasn't all roses and violins, but to think of PNG as a decedant society that stepped away from a worldwide mainstream moral consensus is to mistake the case.

If it is so obvious what is right and wrong, and if it ain't rocket science, then why were the moral teachings of Jesus so contraversial?

"You have heard that ... but I say to you ..."

I would argue that the Old and New testaments show a gradual growing in understanding of the meaning of right and wrong, from the early 'devotions' of innocent children to God, through the mythic denunciation of child sacrifice in the story of Abraham and Isaac, from the ritual purity of the old testament to the deeper, inward purity demanded by Jesus.

Sure, when the light came into the world we hated it. But like it or not we can see more than those who struggled in the dark; and like it or not we are judged and condemned by what we can see.

--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Niënna

Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
It is very rare, though it does happen, that some societies promote cannibalism, lying, and thievery...papua new guinea comes to mind...

Just popping up to defend Papua New Guinea, which didn't really promote lying or thievery any more than any other similarily developed society. Also cannibalism was bound up with ritual and often respect - by eating parts of a dead but respected enemy you could gain his powers; the Fore tribe of PNG ate deceased loved ones as an act of respect.

Sure, it wasn't all roses and violins, but to think of PNG as a decedant society that stepped away from a worldwide mainstream moral consensus is to mistake the case.

[brick wall]

Serves me right for not being specific. I was stupid for saying papua new guinea when I meant to say a certain tribe in papau new guinea.

I do recall reading about a tribe in papua new guinea whose main tenant that deceiving each other was a staple virtue. Unfortunately, they nearly made themselves extinct because of certain horrible practices, especially the deceiving. I will go look that up. I hope my information wasn't faulty. [Ultra confused] [Paranoid]

Yes, not all tribes in papau new guinea were like that [brick wall] , my bad.

quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
If it is so obvious what is right and wrong, and if it ain't rocket science, then why were the moral teachings of Jesus so contraversial?

"You have heard that ... but I say to you ..."

Controversial because it goes against our selfish nature and selfish, self-centered ways.

It makes sense to treat people decently. Call me dense, but I don't think that is rocket science either.

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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24

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No worries - I wasn't trying to pick on you.

I quite like a book called "A Guide to Understanding the Bible" by a guy called Harry Emerson Fosdick (although I don't agree with it all, of course [Biased] ). It's online here.

The reason I mention it is because it takes the bible thematically and traces each theme through, trying to show how the ideas progressively got deeper and truer, culminating in the teachings of Jesus. Chapter 3 deals with the Idea of Right and Wrong and sets out a better case for an expanding and deepening sense of morality than I ever could.

--------------------
They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I quite like a book called "A Guide to Understanding the Bible" by a guy called Harry Emerson Fosdick (although I don't agree with it all, of course [Biased] ). It's online here.

Demas, those links don't work for me. Try this one.

I love the idea of the development of ideas throughout the Bible.

I agree with Joyfulsoul that morality is really pretty simple, and that most people worldwide have a good idea of most of it. It is true that Jesus contradicted common perceptions in His teachings when He said "but I say to you." Still, I don't think that the things He said (love your enemies, seek first the kingdom of God, don't lust) were completely counter-intuitive. He was explaining and deepening people's idea of God and goodness in order to encourage them to love Him and do His will.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Demas
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# 24

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Hmm, seems to be back online, for me at least [Paranoid]

If it still doesn't work for you, try this link from archive.org.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Hmm, seems to be back online, for me at least [Paranoid]

If it still doesn't work for you, try this link from archive.org.

Yes, they all work now. Thanks. Very interesting.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
The people I know, including myself, seem to eat quite a bit of chocolate as it is, even though we're told it makes us fat.

I go back to this because I think it goes to the crux of the matter.

The thing is that chocolate isn't all that harmful, and it is quite attractive. There are many similar things. It really depends on how convinced we are of the harm it causes.

A good example would be tobacco. It is enjoyable and addictive all over the world. In the United States, however, its usage has fallen off. The reason seems to be that people undestand more clearly than ever how harmful it is. Everyone always knew it was harmful, but exhaustive studies, reports, charges, court cases, and publicity, have fixed in the public mind that it is harmful enough for most people to want to avoid it.

Why wouldn't the same be true of sin? Sure, everyone knows that it is "bad" and that therefore it must be harmful. But until people really understand why and how it is harmful, and how harmful it is, it is hard to reduce its prevalence.

Hell is not a punishment for bad behavior. It is the misery caused by sin. If we don't understand it and how it works, including why a merciful God would permit its existence, then, as with tobacco smoke, it is hard to take the danger seriously. Information is key.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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