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Originally posted by professorkirke:
I know the consequences, I know how to avoid them. When I choose not to exercise, I know what I'm going to get for it, but I just don't care.

That's very far away from being told that if I don't do this or that or this other thing, I will end up in hell after I die. "How do you know?" I ask. "Well, I just believe that you do because that's how I interpret the Bible. Oh, and by the way, there are about seven million different possible ways to avoid hell, and only one that will work. Hope you pick the right one, like I did!"

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
It's just not similar to earthly consequences at all, neither in foreknowledge nor severity.

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
I know the consequences, I know how to avoid them. When I choose not to exercise, I know what I'm going to get for it, but I just don't care.

That's very far away from being told that if I don't do this or that or this other thing, I will end up in hell after I die. "How do you know?" I ask. "Well, I just believe that you do because that's how I interpret the Bible. Oh, and by the way, there are about seven million different possible ways to avoid hell, and only one that will work. Hope you pick the right one, like I did!"

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- Can hell exist and will God allow people to go there?

is substantially different from:

-who goes there and how does one avoid going there?

I was trying to work through the first one.

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Excellent point. So, God may allow people to go to Hell by nature of their choices leading to consequences, desired or not. I could agree with this, if the consequences were clearly laid out and the choices were made freely.

And in working out the second one, for me, I come to the conclusions that no, the consequences are not laid out clearly, and the choices we make are not free. We are slaves to sin.

So that's my further take on the subject. But like I said, good point.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
It's just not similar to earthly consequences at all, neither in foreknowledge nor severity.

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Hmm. I have many thoughts about this. None of them organized.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
So, God may allow people to go to Hell by nature of their choices leading to consequences, desired or not. I could agree with this, if the consequences were clearly laid out and the choices were made freely.

And in working out the second one, for me, I come to the conclusions that no, the consequences are not laid out clearly, and the choices we make are not free. We are slaves to sin.

So that's my further take on the subject.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
the choices we make are not free. We are slaves to sin.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
no, the consequences are not laid out clearly

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
It's just not similar to earthly consequences at all, neither in foreknowledge nor severity.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
You must anticipate my next question then, right? Out with it!

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
the choices we make are not free. We are slaves to sin.

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This where I disagree with you. I believe we can make choices. I'm not a Calvinist - in the sense that I believe we are somehow intrinsically evil and fore-doomed to one destination or another without any choice or say in the matter.

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I believe that while we are all slaves to sin, we are simultaneously allowed to make choices contrary to it. How else could you explain non-Christians being selfless and charitable and Christ-like - even when they are still "non-believers" and "slaves to sin"? An athiest I know is actually quite kind and considerate and generous and selfless and does noble deeds. He does not believe in any god and openly rejects Christ outright, yet is still able to manage being selfless and thoughtful and kind.

So I don't buy the argument that says that we are complete and utter robots without any choice but sin and so are not responsible for our actions and thoughts etc. I believe that the divine image that God placed in us and helps us make better and noble choices as human beings.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
no, the consequences are not laid out clearly

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I don't know if I agree with that statement.

Across most cultures, general morals are consistent: don't steal, don't take someone else's woman, don't murder, don't lie... etc. There are very few societies where lying and thievery and murder and canabalism are an acceptable social and moral norm and those societies tend to disentigrate and die out.

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I know in the OT, in the book of Joshua - God was like, "I'm going to level with you, kids. Do good and I'll bless the socks outta ya. Do bad and I'm going to bust you big time and your life will really suck. So do good, ok?"

The consequences were really,really clear and that didn't really work, either.

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Yes, and here is where my mind really starts spinning fast. See, I think the consequences were made and the rules drawn out so clearly so as to be a hyperbolic rhetorical device for God to demonstrate to all of the world, through the Hebrew people, what it's like to try to do it on our own! And you're right, JS, it does not work at all. But we want it to work so badly, and God knew that, so he gave us a few thousand years of a chance. When he finally feels that we've had a sufficient display of how we just will never get it right with the Salvation-by-Law thing, he fills Mary with Grace, who was born to the earth as God's free gift to the whole world. I know you like choice, humans. I know you like feeling like you're in control. But when you ARE in control, you destroy everything, including yourselves, and your headed for some bad, bad destruction. So here's what I'm going to do--I'm going to wipe it all clean and save you all, and you can either start living like that now, or you can go on living like you're in control, and like you can do it all by yourself like you really want to. It's up to you, but until you start living like you are free and forgiven (as you really truly are), you won't ever get the Kingdom of God here on earth, where it is, and where I have brought it.

Something like that. (With many obvious holes, clearly. )

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
It's just not similar to earthly consequences at all, neither in foreknowledge nor severity.

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Maybe that's a matter of interpretation, no?

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Well, of course it is. But my interpretations have something all the other ones lack--they're right. Clearly.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
You must anticipate my next question then, right? Out with it!

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<sigh> My psychic abilities have diminished. I'm afraid I can't.

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Haha I thought this was a dangerous way of putting it. Sorry! All I meant was that you said you had many thoughts on the matter. So my next question, not-so-obviously, is "what are these thoughts?" Out with it! was my cry for the thoughts of Joyful Soul's mind!

-Digory

[ 08. December 2005, 22:32: Message edited by: professorkirke ]

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Originally posted by professorkirke:

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Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
*looks up* - I realize I mis-stated that - actually, I speak French like a 6-year-old and just enough Italian to find the toilets and buy food... sorry, off-topic but a valid correction nonetheless! It's *English* of which I only have a late 20th century mastery...

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If you phrase your Italian like you just phrased this English, people may look at you sideways when they think you are looking to buy food from the toilets...

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Originally posted by Papio.:
I am having a very interesting conversation with an Orthodox Christian. The God he worships is not the one I reject. At all.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
Honest question: do you really honestly think that if you got to heaven, whatever that is, and you had hated God on earth and not wanted anything to do with him but he'd saved you anyway, that once you truly and fully understood all of who God was and all of what his presence really meant, that you'd feel sleighted and "fore-doomed"?

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
So if we're not responsible for our slavery, which affects our decisions, then how can those decisions be truly pure?

As Jolly Jape usually points out in a really neat (I think) way, if God removes our sickness, we're free to be who we were always meant to be, at which point I don't see there being any choice in the matter, free will or not!

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
I've said this before: some choices aren't choices. Like, do you want a million dollars or to have pencils jammed in your loved ones' eyes**? The superiority of an option doesn't negate the freedom of the choice.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
**Apologies if this example was a bit graphic. I went for the "shock value" device...

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No worries.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
The sociologist in me just awoke. Is this really because everyone has the same internal moral compass, or because over thousands of years people finally figured out that if you don't limit things like thievery and murder, your society will tend to disintegrate and die out?

Causal relationships are so tricky.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
It's just not similar to earthly consequences at all, neither in foreknowledge nor severity.

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Maybe that's a matter of interpretation, no?[/qb][/QUOTE]Well, of course it is. But my interpretations have something all the other ones lack--they're right. Clearly. [/qb] [/QUOTE]

Perhaps this is what the whole thing boils down to - we have a disagreement over:

1) free will
2) value of choice in eternal destinies

[eta code]

[ 09. December 2005, 06:01: Message edited by: Joyfulsoul ]

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
But I can imagine someone not giving me a choice. And yes I would feel like a deceived robot foredoomed.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by professorkirke:
I've said this before: some choices aren't choices. Like, do you want a million dollars or to have pencils jammed in your loved ones' eyes**? The superiority of an option doesn't negate the freedom of the choice.

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Apologies but I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I feel the portion in bold supports my interpretation - but I'm not clear how you are using it.

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Perhaps this is what the whole thing boils down to - we have a disagreement over:

1) free will
2) value of choice in eternal destinies

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It's probably a little bit about (1) free will and probably even more about (3) definition of choice or understanding of what choice is.

But still, it's a good discussion.

-Digory

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
So the fact that once everyone understands the choice, they all will choose heaven and none will end up in hell would not mean it was suddenly an unfree decision.

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I don't think anyone would have any hesitation about choosing Heaven over Hell, if it was indeed such a straightforward choice with no other consequences.

If, on the other hand, that choice would entail changes to one's personality, it may become more difficult. And it would. I know I have elements of my psychological make up that, while not in any way Heavenly, are nonetheless so much a part of me that I can't concieve of being without them.

To use a (probably very ill-concieved) analogy, it would be like knowing that no-one in heaven had arms. Now I may know at the theoretical level that I'd be better off just accepting those terms, but it sure wouldn't be a straightforward decision to get rid of them!

Of course, you may make the argument that any such "unHeavenly" personality traits we have are a result of our slavery to sin, thus by the time the choice is to be made they would already have been removed. It's a complicated issue, this, isn't it ...

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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It's probably a little bit about (1) free will and probably even more about (3) definition of choice or understanding of what choice is.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
Well, I was kind of speaking to the complexity of our choice again here. In my rather graphic example, you could imagine that no one would choose the worse choice if they understood the choice perfectly.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
So the fact that once everyone understands the choice, they all will choose heaven and none will end up in hell would not mean it was suddenly an unfree decision.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
So the fact that once everyone understands the choice, they all will choose heaven and none will end up in hell would not mean it was suddenly an unfree decision.

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Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
It seems to me, that the idea that people's wrongful actions that have detrimental consequences is appalling to you. You don't find this view palatable or perhaps you find it inconsistent with experience or even at odds with theology.

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So in order to address this - all that is necessary to avoid the negative consequences - is to say that we are slaves to sin and so not held accountable at all for any actions or choices we make.

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People are simply like robots and cannot be held responsible for the choices they make. Since God cannot be unjust - he cannot allow the consequences to take place of something that we did not choose in the first place. So, our response is to acknowledge this (we all will someday before God) and God has made a way for his grace to cover our sin.

I have issues with this interpretation of human behavior/sin/free will. I think that people do have free will - that they can make choices (for good or for evil). And because we are able to make these choices, we can be held responsible for them.

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Here is where you misunderstand me, though. I DO believe in free will, I do! I do! We're not robots, we're slaves. Or like I said, if you end up unconscious on a fast-moving raft, maybe you shouldn't have been drinking so much before getting on this raft? We all have choices we make, and there are consequences. But what is the point of God protecting our free will at all costs so he can rob us of it as soon as we meet death? At the very point where we become most like ourselves (as Jolly talks about) and fully realize the nature of the choices we have, at that point our choice is revoked and we are forced to live with the eternal consequences of only our pre-death choices?

Not that you, or Freddy, or anyone here really believes this because I know some people have said that they feel people will have choices after death and still choose hell. That they will continue to choose hell, forever, some of them. I can at least see this argument a little better, but it seems to be just as inconsistent with the biblical view of hell re: Lazarus/Dives, etc. And even further, I just don't see how we will make a choice for hell once we are fully aware and seeing things clearly As They Truly Are.

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I'm not sure if our views can be resolved???

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Perhaps not, but that doesn't have to be the goal.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
Well, I was kind of speaking to the complexity of our choice again here. In my rather graphic example, you could imagine that no one would choose the worse choice if they understood the choice perfectly.

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What you are suggesting is that all bad choices are simply a result of some sort of information failure issue. I disagree. How many people have chosen to have an affair knowing full well the potential havoc and damage that could ensue? I have known a few people who have confessed (to other things) that they knew full well the possible damaging outcome yet decided to do it anyway. It was not the case that the information (namely – pain and wrongness of the choice) was absent at all.

<snip>

I think we all understand the choice between heaven and hell. I don’t think is the case that someone truly wants hell (misery and suffering). Full information does not guarantee anything though.

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Okay. I think (could be wrong) that what you and Freddy are both suggesting is that no matter how much evidence a person has, it won't necessarily change the decision. Those are more Freddy's words than yours, Joyful, but I think it's kind of what you are saying in this above portion I've quoted. And I'm saying--I agree.

Evidence is what we have on earth to replace understanding, since we can't have understanding here. Somebody had an affair knowing full well the consequences--did they? Or did they know what other people's consequences typically tend to be? That's what evidence is, looking around at what's happened before and assuming it'll happen again, or looking at what we know and trying to use it to deduce things we don't know or don't fully understand. We use it here in a broken and sick world to try to make sense of things. But in a perfect, timeless place where we are stripped of our sickness and allowed to become the core of who we really were, where we can fully and totally see and comprehend our choices, this is not evidence!

I don't believe someone would have an affair once they could fully become someone else and experience their pain firsthand, in order to fully understand it, and to fully understand how their choices are negatively affecting someone they so very love. And that's another thing--here we don't really truly LOVE. We try so hard sometimes but our love is cracked and imperfect, too. But in a place where we could fully love, would we cheat? I don't think so--I don't think it was ever who we were meant to be.

Let me reiterate--that's not making us robots or robbing us of choice. It's illuminating our true desires. If God thought we were capable of discerning what our true desires were, why would he have had to assure us to "Trust in the Lord with all your mind soul and strength and he will give you the desires of your heart." You may not "like" what you get, but when you trust him, you realize it was what you really deeply truly wanted.

So no, evidence is worthless in affecting a decision most times. It typically enacts selfishness and self-preservation. But true understanding? I think that's totally different.


(I know I'm all over the place here towards the end---I just got carried away a bit. Sorry! )


-Digory

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When he finally feels that we've had a sufficient display of how we just will never get it right with the Salvation-by-Law thing, he fills Mary with Grace, who was born to the earth as God's free gift to the whole world. I know you like choice, humans. I know you like feeling like you're in control. But when you ARE in control, you destroy everything, including yourselves, and your headed for some bad, bad destruction. So here's what I'm going to do--I'm going to wipe it all clean and save you all, and you can either start living like that now, or you can go on living like you're in control, and like you can do it all by yourself like you really want to. It's up to you, but until you start living like you are free and forgiven (as you really truly are), you won't ever get the Kingdom of God here on earth, where it is, and where I have brought it.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
So if we're not responsible for our slavery, which affects our decisions, then how can those decisions be truly pure?

As Jolly Jape usually points out in a really neat (I think) way, if God removes our sickness, we're free to be who we were always meant to be, at which point I don't see there being any choice in the matter, free will or not!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can see that we have different understandings regarding this matter. In my view, choice is crucial. I think God values choice. He doesn't want to overwhelm us - he wants faith. I don't completely get the whole thing - but from what I gather, he desires trust in doubt. I think he values free will (meaning to choose to do right or wrong)...a lot.

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I have issues with this interpretation of human behavior/sin/free will. I think that people do have free will - that they can make choices (for good or for evil). And because we are able to make these choices, we can be held responsible for them.

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joyfulsoul said:
What you are suggesting is that all bad choices are simply a result of some sort of information failure issue. I disagree. How many people have chosen to have an affair knowing full well the potential havoc and damage that could ensue? I have known a few people who have confessed (to other things) that they knew full well the possible damaging outcome yet decided to do it anyway. It was not the case that the information (namely – pain and wrongness of the choice) was absent at all.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
I just don't see how we will make a choice for hell once we are fully aware and seeing things clearly As They Truly Are.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
We all have choices we make, and there are consequences. But what is the point of God protecting our free will at all costs so he can rob us of it as soon as we meet death? At the very point where we become most like ourselves (as Jolly talks about) and fully realize the nature of the choices we have, at that point our choice is revoked and we are forced to live with the eternal consequences of only our pre-death choices?

Not that you, or Freddy, or anyone here really believes this because I know some people have said that they feel people will have choices after death and still choose hell. That they will continue to choose hell, forever, some of them. I can at least see this argument a little better, but it seems to be just as inconsistent with the biblical view of hell re: Lazarus/Dives, etc.

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• 1. The freedom to do as you wish.
• 2. The freedom to change what you wish.

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Luke 6:38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

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Matthew 13:14 ‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I shouldheal them.’

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Hosea 11:9

I will not carry out my fierce anger,
nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim.
For I am God, and not man—
the Holy One among you.
I will not come in wrath.

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Ephesians 1:3-10

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Bold added for emphasis.

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Isaiah 45:4-5

For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me

and then verses 22-23

Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

Bold added for emphasis, more re: JoyfulSoul's thoughts on freedom...

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
Very clearly these are not foolproof arguments. However, if you are willing to read them with fresh eyes, they can point in a way different than we are used to, and I think that is very interesting.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
What are the passages that most thoughtfully point to the existence and certain usage of Hell?

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Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels….45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where ‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Isaiah 66.23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
24 “ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

2 Thessalonians 1 “It is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

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There is a huge theme in the gospels of repentence (I think especially in Luke). It is kind of like - if we never repent, we don't know how to receive forgiveness. It is kind of like when Jesus was explaining love and forgiveness . The idea is that if you don't know how to receive forgiveness then it is really and truly hard for you to both receive and share love.

Repentence is so crucial to receive the extravagant gift of love that God has. It is not because God's love is weak - it is because we bar him from loving us by not receiving it.

It is like you have a gift but the other person doesn't want it. No matter how badly you want to give it to someone - if a person cannot receive - then he or she is unable to enjoy the gift. Maybe this is not your personal experience, but it is certainly been mine.

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Really strong post, Joyfulsoul. That's pretty much how I see that it works, too. One thing that I have been thinking about recently, both here and in another correspondance, is how the themes of forgiveness, repentance, restoration and reconciliation go together. I think that most people would put it thus:

Repentance > Forgiveness > Restoration > Reconciliation.

I'm not so sure if that's how it happens (well, actually I'm pretty sure that it's not that way . It seems to me, and this ties in with your post, that the beginning point is God's forgiveness of us. This stimulates our spirit to repentance, and a desire for change. God then restores us by His grace to the place we would have been had we not sinned, and the Spirit then works the ongoing transformation in our lives, such that we are living in a way more aligned with God's ways (reconciliation). Thus, the process is nearer to:

Forgiveness > Repentance > Restoration > Reconciliation.

If we cannot receive God's forgiveness, it cuts the process short. It's not that we aren't forgiven if we don't respond, more that we don't appropriate the benefits of that forgiveness.

Of course, in reality, all these stages are going on all the time in our lives.

--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Thus, the process is nearer to:

Forgiveness > Repentance > Restoration > Reconciliation.

If we cannot receive God's forgiveness, it cuts the process short. It's not that we aren't forgiven if we don't respond, more that we don't appropriate the benefits of that forgiveness.

Of course, in reality, all these stages are going on all the time in our lives.

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Originally posted by 3M Matt:
Now, while most of us might like to think the specific details of our image of heaven are rather more sophisticated than this, ultimately, our underlying philosophy is often rather similar. We think of heaven as being the place where we will basically get our own way.

This is, incidently, the kind of heaven portrayed in Islam. Upon dying, you will be met by several beautiful virgins and a wonderful feast of exotic food apparently.

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Matt,

Thank you.

I love the "Vanilla Sky" comparison. I always heard it was a terrible movie so I never saw it. Maybe I will now. Of course you have ruined it.

I don't think that it is far-fetched to think that there are people who believe that doing minimal work, getting drunk every night, and having sex with lots of people could be a satisfying eternal lifestyle.

The Islamic idea of 72 beautiful virgins is not so different, and it has understandable appeal - but only, probably, for men.

The Bible, however, seems to say that this kind of idea of heaven is wide of the mark.

I guess the big question is whether people ever do realize that the Bible is right, and then change to conform to what it says.

Another question would be whether we are even the same people as we are in this world, with the same interests and beliefs.

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I love the "Vanilla Sky" comparison. I always heard it was a terrible movie so I never saw it. Maybe I will now. Of course you have ruined it.

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Originally posted by 3M Matt:
There are two ultimate destinies that we can have.

One where we get entirely our own way.

One where we submit entirely to God's way.

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Then I don't think I will have a destiny. See, I at least understand a little bit about getting my own way. I don't really like to, to be honest, and for whatever reason. I don't want that destiny.

But my only other choice here is to "submit entirely to God's way," which is something I cannot do. If we had the capacity to do this here on Earth, I'd be inclined to believe in this dichotomy, but since this remains impossible as I see it, and I go through a cycle of wanting my way and wanting to submit at least several times a day, something else must be going on.

I understand your distinction, 3M, don't get me wrong. There is something in our nature that doesn't want to get our own way because it is a false reality and we want truth (like Vanilla Sky or the Matrix, etc.) even if it means some pain or disappointment now and then. But I think we all want that deep down, and (some of you must be sick of this) I think Jolly's idea of the sickness is really appropriate here. Perhaps on earth some of us are sicker than others but we're all sick--we all want our own way. But the fact is I can't submit to God the way I am now--my sickness prevents me from making this choice. Something is going to have to happen to me post-death if I am to make a choice to submit to God over getting my own way. And if something has to happen (whether that's preemptive forgiveness or our analogic "healing" or whatever) to me, then I must also assume it will happen to all, at which point I believe even those who were most sick will receive their healing in full and be made able to choose the choice that is best for them--to submit as you nicely put it.

This line of thought preserves choice, and it uses the ideas of selfish hell vs. submissive heaven, which I like. Where it rubs people wrong is that it would seem to remove motivation for leading a better life, for not sinning. I simply don't think the threat of hell is a very good motivation to begin with, but that's probably a different post.

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God can only give what we are willing to accept, and most people will be only willing to accept the "My Way" kind of heaven, which will eventually turn to hell. It would be no good even forcing them to accept the second kind of heaven, because that too would be hell to them.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:

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Originally posted by 3M Matt:
There are two ultimate destinies that we can have.

One where we get entirely our own way.

One where we submit entirely to God's way.

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Then I don't think I will have a destiny. See, I at least understand a little bit about getting my own way. I don't really like to, to be honest, and for whatever reason. I don't want that destiny.

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by professorkirke:

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Originally posted by 3M Matt:
There are two ultimate destinies that we can have.

One where we get entirely our own way.

One where we submit entirely to God's way.

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Then I don't think I will have a destiny. See, I at least understand a little bit about getting my own way. I don't really like to, to be honest, and for whatever reason. I don't want that destiny.

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I think Matt meant that those were the two extremes.

Most people would actually be somewhere in the middle. The question is exactly where.

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So, if I want to submit more than Bob does, there's some imaginary point at which I cross over into "Enough Wanting to Get Heaven" and Bob will be stuck back in "Not Quite Enough Wanting So You Get Hell"? Or is there no heaven and hell and just levels of heavenness and hellness?

I know, I know--it's an incredibly tough topic to really pin down!

-Digory

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
So, if I want to submit more than Bob does, there's some imaginary point at which I cross over into "Enough Wanting to Get Heaven" and Bob will be stuck back in "Not Quite Enough Wanting So You Get Hell"? Or is there no heaven and hell and just levels of heavenness and hellness?

I know, I know--it's an incredibly tough topic to really pin down!

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Originally posted by 3M Matt:
There are two ultimate destinies that we can have.

One where we get entirely our own way.

One where we submit entirely to God's way.<snip>

God will allow people to go to their hell, because they will be positively begging him to let them go there.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
Except that you contend it's possible to leap this chasm even after death, if you so choose. Which is a big difference, I'd say.

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
Except that you contend it's possible to leap this chasm even after death, if you so choose. Which is a big difference, I'd say.

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No. It's a big "if".

People on one side of the chasm aren't comfortable on the other. They don't choose to cross it.

This is the only reason it is wide.

If there was a desire to cross it then it would be narrow or not there at all. At least, that's how I understand the physics of the spiritual world.

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Originally posted by professorkirke:
But "we are just sure they won't" isn't really an arguable option (I don't think).

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
Whether or not they CAN or CANNOT doesn't seem to be the issue at all, but whether it's at all likely they would choose to.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
Gort, this isn't Hell or Heaven.

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Originally posted by Gort:
He's making a list and checking it twice.
Gonna find out who's naughty and nice…

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I wasn't sure if you were being facetious with this verse - meaning that it might be silly or simplistic to see God as Santa - punishing the bad, rewarding the good. The extreme of this is sending the "naughty" people to hell and the "good" people to heaven, with lots of toys of course .

So, then - I have been suggesting in this thread - that perhaps it is not a matter of God rewarding or punishing vis a via sending people to everlasting torment. Perhaps it is matter of people choosing the destinies themselves. Being that how we treat other people and ourselves and God is what matters -

-which is why I asked that perhaps how we live our lives now (our current state) affects our future (who knows what happpens to us after spirit separates from the life-less corpse).

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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land