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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily offices
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Patrick
Shipmate
# 305
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Posted
Although generally omitted at the All Night Vigil, the Benedictus Dominus Dei Israel (Ode 10) is appointed to be said after the Magnificat (Ode 9). It is an obligatory feature of Matins during the weekdays of the Great Fast.
Posts: 109 | From: Fordham University, Bronx, N.Y. U.S.A. | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
leo said:
I thought it was in the introduction to Morning Prayer in the BCP - but I looked it up and was surprised to see that it wasn't there!
Then I went to Percy Dearmer. He quotes what I was quoting above but gives no reference to its source.
Can anyone help out here?
It's in 'Concerning the service of the Church' at the front of the prayer book:
quote:
And all Priests and Deacons are to say daily the Morning and Evening Prayer either privately or openly, not being let by sickness, or some other urgent cause.
And the Curate that ministereth in every Parish-Church or Chapel, being at home, and not being otherwise reasonably hindered, shall say the same in the Parish-Church or Chapel where he ministereth, and shall cause a Bell to be tolled thereunto a convenient time before he begin, that the people may come to hear God's Word, and to pray with him.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Cheers! So I was right after all (except that it's not canon law as such, which was what somebody asked about above.)
[ 10. February 2006, 13:36: Message edited by: leo ]
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Cheers! So I was right after all (except that it's not canon law as such, which was what somebody asked about above.)
But it's canon law in the sense that canon law requires compliance with the BCP rubrics, right?
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
In the Divine Office, the ferial psalter gives you three antiphons, but in non-ferial seasons it gives you one. Is it Ant. Ps. GP Ant., repeat, or 'Ant. Ps. 1st Ant. 2nd Ant., etc.' or...?
When there is only one antiphon I believe it goes Ant. Ps1 GP Ps2 GP Ps3 GP Ant. The source I've been using, breviary.net, which is the old Tridentine breviary, doesn't give more than one antiphon at the little hours.
Here is a link to the website for the Anglican breviary that deals with this particular issue for that book:
In that case, sometimes the antiphons for the little hours are taken from those of lauds, so they are printed together. One goes to prime, one to terce, etc. So are they just printing them for all the little hours together? Probably not; just grasping at straws.
Related question: When the 3 psalms are really just sections of 1 psalm, do you do all three GP's, or only once at the end? i.e. Ant Ps119vi, Ps119vii, Ps119viii GP Ant for Sunday Sext?
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Seasick, thanks for that. I knew it was somewhere. I remembered the phrase from a long way back but couldn't remember where!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Anything new in the Daily Office world? I hate to see my favorite topic sink off the first page.
I've completed four Monday Evening Prayers at Ascension, Chicago, as officiant. It's probably the least-attended EP of the week. The first week we had six, which was phenomenal. The next Monday I entered the church to see a lone lady sitting right up against the officiant's stall. Guess she wanted to breathe down my neck. A man popped in during a lesson ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) long enough to ask for directions to the AA meeting room. I guess my cassock and surplice made me look like an information-desk agent (I did stop reading and told him the directions, then went on). Then three the next week, all seeming to want me to get it over with in a hurry. This Monday it was me alone until Nunc dimittis, when a lady came in and sat near the back and didn't make any responses. I counted her when I signed the register. She participated by just being there. Still, she seemed strange enough that I felt compelled to check all the pews before I locked up. Wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to get a pew to sleep in for the night by hiding under a pew after EP. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
I understand that Canterbury Press are due to publish their reprint of The English Office on February 28th.
Has anyone any up-to-date news of when the reprint of The Monastic Diurnal by Lancelot Andrewes Press is due?
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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moveable_type
Shipmate
# 9673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Anything new in the Daily Office world? I hate to see my favorite topic sink off the first page.
from the CofE's Web site: Mattins, Evensong and Compline with readings for the day appointed, with a choice of traditional or contemporary language, as an RSS feed.
Posts: 1062 | From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sub Hoc Signo Vinces
Shipmate
# 11086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I understand that Canterbury Press are due to publish their reprint of The English Office on February 28th.
Has anyone any up-to-date news of when the reprint of The Monastic Diurnal by Lancelot Andrewes Press is due?
DIVINE OFFICE
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I understand that Canterbury Press are due to publish their reprint of The English Office on February 28th.
Has anyone any up-to-date news of when the reprint of The Monastic Diurnal by Lancelot Andrewes Press is due?
DIVINE OFFICE
Dear Divine Office,
I have seen this volume in several religious bookshops in London, most recently at the Mowbray bookshop in the basement of Waterstone's on Margaret Street, W1. Internationally, it might be possible to get it directly from the publisher, which advertises it at the following URL:
http://www.farnboroughabbey.org/books.html
Regards,
SHSV
Posts: 139 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces:
I have seen this volume in several religious bookshops in London, most recently at the Mowbray bookshop in the basement of Waterstone's on Margaret Street, W1. Internationally, it might be possible to get it directly from the publisher, which advertises it at the following URL:
http://www.farnboroughabbey.org/books.html
Be careful, though. The Monastic Diurnal recently reprinted by Farnborough Abbey is the Roman Catholic Latin/English one. The forthcoming reprint of The Monastic Diurnal from Lancelot Andrewes Press is the Anglican all-English one with Coverdale psalms. Just be aware these are two different books.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Sub Hoc Signo Vinces
Shipmate
# 11086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces:
I have seen this volume in several religious bookshops in London, most recently at the Mowbray bookshop in the basement of Waterstone's on Margaret Street, W1. Internationally, it might be possible to get it directly from the publisher, which advertises it at the following URL:
http://www.farnboroughabbey.org/books.html
Be careful, though. The Monastic Diurnal recently reprinted by Farnborough Abbey is the Roman Catholic Latin/English one. The forthcoming reprint of The Monastic Diurnal from Lancelot Andrewes Press is the Anglican all-English one with Coverdale psalms. Just be aware these are two different books.
Dear Scott,
Thank you for that helpful crarification. I had not realized that they were different; I just thought Farnborough had done their own version of the book.
Regards,
SHSV
Posts: 139 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2006
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Dear SHSV
Many thanks indeed for your help.
I already have a copy of the Farnborough Abbey Press reprint of the Monastic Diurnal ,which I purchased last year in the Veritas bookshop in Dublin whilst on holiday there. It is indeed a very nice breviary.
I'm very keen to obtain a copy of the Lancelot Andrewes Press reprint of the Anglican version for comparison, though. When I obtain it, I might possibly keep the Farnborough Abbey version for praying the monastic office in Latin, and the Lancelot Andrewes Press version for praying it in English.
I also have the three volumes of the version of the current RC Divine Office used in the UK and Ireland, but I'm not a great fan of the Grail psalter, although it is usable. Also, they do not have the traditional Office Hymns.
I have found Benedictine Daily Prayer,published by Liturgical Press, quite a useful and nicely-produced breviary, as it is based on the traditional monastic distibution of the psalms, and it also has versions of the Office Hymns. However, I use other versions of the canticles, as I'm not that keen on the translations given in the book.
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
The LA edition of the Monastic Diurnal should be ready for shipping around 15th March, according to an update on the Occidentalis blog.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sub Hoc Signo Vinces
Shipmate
# 11086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Dear SHSV
Many thanks indeed for your help.
I already have a copy of the Farnborough Abbey Press reprint of the Monastic Diurnal ,which I purchased last year in the Veritas bookshop in Dublin whilst on holiday there. It is indeed a very nice breviary.
I'm very keen to obtain a copy of the Lancelot Andrewes Press reprint of the Anglican version for comparison, though. When I obtain it, I might possibly keep the Farnborough Abbey version for praying the monastic office in Latin, and the Lancelot Andrewes Press version for praying it in English.
I also have the three volumes of the version of the current RC Divine Office used in the UK and Ireland, but I'm not a great fan of the Grail psalter, although it is usable. Also, they do not have the traditional Office Hymns.
I have found Benedictine Daily Prayer,published by Liturgical Press, quite a useful and nicely-produced breviary, as it is based on the traditional monastic distibution of the psalms, and it also has versions of the Office Hymns. However, I use other versions of the canticles, as I'm not that keen on the translations given in the book.
DIVINE OFFICE
Dear Divine Office,
Thak you for that. I am sorry to have been a source of confusion about those two different versions. I am grateful to Scott for putting me right on that point.
I have (like most contributors to this thread, I am sure) tried a number of different prayer books and breviaries. Although I am an Anglican, I keep coming back to the RC Liturgy of the Hours (LOTH). I have the four-volume English version produced in the US by the Catholic Book Publishing Co. and the four-volume Latin version (editio typica) produced by the Libraria Editrice Vaticana. (The only oddity with the latter is that one does not get the Vulgate psalter but something noticeably different; I wonder if it is the Pius XII psalter. This can sound decidedly clunky if you are used to the Vulgate renderings from liturgical settings.)
I am English and live in London. But I find that the US English version suits me better than the three-volume Divine Office produced for the UK. This is partly because I prefer they way that the material is spread between four volumes: one for Advent/Christmas, one for Lent/Easter and two for the weeks of Ordinary Time. Then there is the fact that there is a detailed "Ordinary" for every office. This is only given in a summary fashion in the UK version. Most important to me, however, are the translations used. I share your reservations about the Grail version as against others, but I have got rather used to it over time.
What really bothers me in the UK Divine Office is the translation of the Gospel Canticles for Lauds, Vespers and Compline. In the Nunc Dimittis, I just cannot see how they get "At last, all-powerful master, you give leave to your servant ...". The Greek simply does not say "at last", it just says "now"; it certainly has no mention of "all-powerful", it just says "master"; and "give leave" is an odd translation of "apolueis" - lit. "you let go". I cannot read this without a jarring sensation and so I prefer the translation in the US version as more faithful to the original. (If I didn't have degrees in Latin and Ancient Greek, these things might just pass me by - perhaps a case of ignorance being bliss?)
Of course, there are oddities in the old BCP. "My soul doth magnify the Lord" - the Greek verb here is "megalunei" - literally "makes big". But then you find, "he that is mighty hath magnified me", where the Greek says "epoiesen moi megala" - lit. "he has done great things for me." The English "magnify" is used for both where the Greek is different and the thought also seems different in the two places.
One can, in a way, use these canticles as a quick test of any collection of liturgical texts. The version of the Magnificat used in Celebrating Common Prayer and Common Worship Daily Prayer refers to God "casting down" the mighty and "lifting up" the lowly. These participial forms are very odd in a narrative that otherwise consists in the Greek of a very striking series of finite verbs - God did A, He did B, He did C and so on. The participles spoil the shape of the piece for no apparent reason. Furthermore, this translation makes it look as though casting down the mighty from their thrones is just an explanation of the manner in which He showed the strength of His arm and scattered the proud in their conceit - i.e. He showed strength by casting them down. That is not a necessary implication in the Greek.
I was brought up on the BCP and enjoy Matins and Evensong but find it ultimately too thin a provision because there is no compline, office of readings or prayer during the day. If one uses the US BCP of 1979, then you get an order for compline but then you also get the Nunc Dimittis twice - once at Evensong and once at Compline. I prefer the LOTH provision, which divides up the Lucan canticles nicely through Lauds, Vespers and Compline.
I have also tried the Anglican Breviary. It is a very splendid and admirable piece of work. A problem I have is that the ordo kalendar is that of the pre-Vatican II church of Rome. One is therefore on a different timetable from not only the CofE but also from the modern RC church. I also have difficulty with the provision for quite so many saints in the old calendar - it makes it difficult to get a feel for a connected series of readings running through a season or ordinary time if one is constantly having to turn aside from that for commemorations and so forth. I do also think that the whole apparatus of semi-double, double, first-class and so forth, whilst liturgically fascinating, is not necessarily of the first importance. Taken together with the complex pre-Vatican II instructions for dealing with occurrence and concurrence, one can experience real difficulty in ordering the worship. It can be sorted out, of course, but is it of the essence? I would stress that this is a purely personal reaction and is not meant to criticize the enormous achievement represented by the AB or the large number of people who have mastered its intricacies and derive profound spiritual nurture from its richness.
I have also tried Common Worship Daily Prayer. Apart from some problems with translation (see above), I find that the provision is rather too open-textured. One can sing this or that hymn; have this canticle or another; this reading or psalm at compline, or another and so on. It is more like a skeleton running-order, I find, and involves too much work with bible and lectionary before all the elements are in place. I am also not sure that the seasonal provision (e.g. for Lent) is quite rich enough. One effectively uses the same form all the way through Lent, unless one uses the ordinary weekday provisions - but then what is the point of having a special form for Lent?
So it is LOTH for me, I think, for the foreseeable future. But I am looking forward to getting a copy of the English Office from SCM Canterbury Press. I am not familiar with its contents and shall look forward to seeing how it has been done. They tell me they are getting copies in today and ought to be sending them out very soon.
Best regards,
SHSV
Posts: 139 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces:
I was brought up on the BCP and enjoy Matins and Evensong but find it ultimately too thin a provision because there is no compline, office of readings or prayer during the day. If one uses the US BCP of 1979, then you get an order for compline but then you also get the Nunc Dimittis twice - once at Evensong and once at Compline. I prefer the LOTH provision, which divides up the Lucan canticles nicely through Lauds, Vespers and Compline.
First, thank you, SHSV, for a generous and fascinating post. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) I always appreciate hearing others' thoughts about texts for the Daily Office.
Regarding the USA BCP 1979 fourfold office: If one prays it in full (MP, Noonday Prayer, EP, Compline), or even without noonday prayer, it is permitted and even recommended that EP take a more Vespers-like form with a single lesson and Magnificat, leaving Nunc dimittis to Compline. Indeed, this may be why more psalm verses are often assigned to EP than to MP, and if you want two lessons at EP you have to borrow one from the other year in the lectionary or use a patristic lesson. Evening Prayer in the 1979 BCP really appears to be set up for one lesson and Magnificat, even though the two-lessons-Mag-and-Nunc material looks like the default in the EP ordinary. Looks like a Standing Liturgical Commission compromise to me! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Dear SHSV
Thank you very much for such a fascinating critique of the various forms of the Divine Office which are available. Your views are very similar to my own. Like you, I have a four-volume set of the Liturgia Horarum which I bought second-hand some years ago, and also a copy of the small Lauds and Vespers book edited by Peter Stravinskas which appeared a few years ago, which has Lauds and Vespers from the LOH for Ordinary Time only in both English and Latin. The English is not ICEL English, and has some good translations of the office hymns and canticles.
For me, the Divine Office would probably come down to the following options:-
1) The RC LOH/Divine Office in English or in Latin
2) The Anglican Breviary
3) The Monastic Diurnal (Farnborough Abbey or LA Press editions)
4) Benedictine Daily Prayer
5) The 1979 ECUSA BCP (or a derivative such as the RC Anglican Use Book of Divine Worship or Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office, if I could obtain an affordable copy!)
I would love to be able to use the 1961 Brevarium Romanum, but my knowledge of Latin and the rubrics is too poor! Like you, I would find BCP Matins and Evensong too thin for daily use, although the C of E's 1928 book and the Scottish Prayer Book of 1929 also have orders for Compline.
It also used to be possible to supplement the BCP offices with the Lesser Hours from a book such as Prime and Hours. The forthcoming reprint of The English Office would also supply additional material such as office hymns and pslam antiphons.
I used to have a copy of Celebrating Common Prayer which I tried a few years ago, but I never felt it was quite the right office book for me; I'm not quite sure why. The ordering of the psalms? The translation of the canticles?
I haven't had the chance to study CW;DP closely, but I suspect that I would agree with you that it is too open-textured. Perhaps that was also the problem with CCP.
In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing The English Office and the LA Press edition of The Monastic Diurnal. It looks as though the latter book will be a particularly handsome production as it is to be printed by the same press which produced The Anglican Breviary.
with best wishes
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Those of you who are buying The English Office when it comes out, please do review it here! I'm hoping to set aside enough money so that I can buy if for myself as an Easter present if it's worth it.
Sometime ago, on ebay, I came across The Office of Readings. It was, as the title might suggest, Matins from the Divine Office, but it was simply that. One volume for the whole year's Office of Readings.
I was told today that it can be bought (though I've never seen it apart from on ebay). Has anyone come across it? Do you know where I might buy it?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Sometime ago, on ebay, I came across The Office of Readings. It was, as the title might suggest, Matins from the Divine Office, but it was simply that. One volume for the whole year's Office of Readings.
I was told today that it can be bought (though I've never seen it apart from on ebay). Has anyone come across it? Do you know where I might buy it?
Sounds like the Daughters of St Paul edition of the Office of Readings. It was published as a companion to their edition of Christian Prayer. It's out of print, I'm afraid. You might do best to put in a request at http://www.loomebooks.com, and they will try to find it for you.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Those of you who are buying The English Office when it comes out, please do review it here! I'm hoping to set aside enough money so that I can buy if for myself as an Easter present if it's worth it.
Roger wilco.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
So, I'm trying to set my Christian Prayer: the Liturgy of the Hours up for Ash Wednesday, and i'm at breviary.net to make sure I'm all good, and I see this note for 4 Mar:
quote:
NB. Today and throughout the whole of Lent, except on Sundays, Vespers is said before midday. Compline is said at the usual time.
Now one is wondering.... why?
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
So, I'm trying to set my Christian Prayer: the Liturgy of the Hours up for Ash Wednesday, and i'm at breviary.net to make sure I'm all good, and I see this note for 4 Mar:
quote:
NB. Today and throughout the whole of Lent, except on Sundays, Vespers is said before midday. Compline is said at the usual time.
Now one is wondering.... why?
That makes absolutely no sense at all ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
So, I'm trying to set my Christian Prayer: the Liturgy of the Hours up for Ash Wednesday, and i'm at breviary.net to make sure I'm all good, and I see this note for 4 Mar:
quote:
NB. Today and throughout the whole of Lent, except on Sundays, Vespers is said before midday. Compline is said at the usual time.
Now one is wondering.... why?
Because in monastic houses, the main meal of the day was taken after Vespers; a light lunch was usually eaten at midday. In Lent, as there is only one meal per day, Vespers is anticipated so the monastics didn't have to wait until late afternoon to eat.
Dave
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
All righty then. It makes sense for the monks, but not for the Sheep who have only got half-hour lunch breaks. Thanks, David!
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Burbling Psalmist
Shipmate
# 9514
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Posted
Apologies in advance if this has been covered somewhere in the preceeding 12 pages:
I'm going away on holiday shortly and don't really want to take my Common Worship Daily Prayer and NRSV with me; they're a bit bulky.
I came across A Week of Simple Offices from the College of the Resurrection at Mirfield.
Anyone used it? Any other/better ideas?
BP
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"And the greatness of the great Christian saints lies in their readiness to be questioned, judged, stripped naked and left speechless by what lies at the centre of their faith" - Rowan Williams
Posts: 183 | From: Cambridge | Registered: May 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Burbling Psalmist:
Apologies in advance if this has been covered somewhere in the preceeding 12 pages:
I'm going away on holiday shortly and don't really want to take my Common Worship Daily Prayer and NRSV with me; they're a bit bulky.
I came across A Week of Simple Offices from the College of the Resurrection at Mirfield.
Anyone used it? Any other/better ideas?
BP
I'm not familiar with the CR simple offices, but I've found the current, slim black hardcover edition of Celebrating Common Prayer to be a quite substantial office in a small, all-inclusive, portable package.
[ 02. March 2006, 13:42: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Inspired by everyone here, I've finally given into temptation and bought a "Book of Hours" by William G Storey. (The Everyday and the Seasonal). I'll let you know how I get on Anyone else used these?
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
I received my copy of The English Office Book this morning.
I've only had a quick look through it so far, but it seems to be a very nicely-printed book, with the rubrics in red this time!
It has all the resources needed to enhance BCP Mattins and Evensong throughout the year, but does not have a lectionary printed in the book. The introduction to the reprint suggests using the ordo for the Divine Office and the Eucharist published each year by Canterbury Press for the lections. Fortunately, I have a copy!
Even when I use the RC Divine Office in future, I will use The English Office for the office hymns and canticles and for the prayers before and after the Office. It also has an appendix with several litanies and devotions.
Pity it doesn't have Terce, Sext, None and Compline, though! One would have to have recourse to The Anglican Breviary for the Lesser Hours, or to the forthcoming LA Press edition of The Monastic Diurnal.
I hope others will post their impressions of The English Office Book when they receive their copies.
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Sub Hoc Signo Vinces
Shipmate
# 11086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I received my copy of The English Office Book this morning.
I've only had a quick look through it so far, but it seems to be a very nicely-printed book, with the rubrics in red this time!
It has all the resources needed to enhance BCP Mattins and Evensong throughout the year, but does not have a lectionary printed in the book. The introduction to the reprint suggests using the ordo for the Divine Office and the Eucharist published each year by Canterbury Press for the lections. Fortunately, I have a copy!
Even when I use the RC Divine Office in future, I will use The English Office for the office hymns and canticles and for the prayers before and after the Office. It also has an appendix with several litanies and devotions.
Pity it doesn't have Terce, Sext, None and Compline, though! One would have to have recourse to The Anglican Breviary for the Lesser Hours, or to the forthcoming LA Press edition of The Monastic Diurnal.
I hope others will post their impressions of The English Office Book when they receive their copies.
DIVINE OFFICE
Dear Divine Office,
I also received my copy this morning and was pleased to see how handsomely produced it was. As you say, it is good to see that the lesson has been learned about the rubrics, which are now printed in red. It is a very attractive book.
It is interesting to have what is essentially the straightforwardly Anglican BCP with the RC enhancement of the office hymns and appropriate antiphons and collects set out in the propers of the season and of the saints.
Like you, I prefer to have as much as possible in one book. As with CWDP, this volume would be so much handier if it had a lectionary printed between its covers (like the 1979 ECUSA BCP).
Overall, I would quite have liked to see a thicker book with scriptural readings provided as well - perhaps "little chapters" of the kind that one finds in Roman breviaries. But that is not to criticize the reprint - this was a decision made by the original producers. They perhaps did not have in mind people who travel as much as we do today and who are not always keen (or able) to carry office book, bible and lectionary.
The same applies to the lack of the lesser hours. The only one of these that I pray daily is compline, but I do like to have the option to say the others when the opportunity presents itself.
I have occasionally toyed with the idea of putting together my own office book that meets all the criteria I have outlined here and in other posts. But I doubt that I'd have the time, perseverance or talent to do it properly. Even if I did, there's always the nasty possibiltity that one might change one's mind about something central (e.g. which register of language to use; which translation of scriptural passages; which version of the psalms) and so come to feel that the whole thing was a waste of time.
So I shall have to carry on trying to make the best of the bewilderingly varied provision already on offer.
Regards,
SHSV
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moveable_type
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I'm new to this sort of thing, so bear with me -
Given an online resource like this, where actually you are using it privately and alone, do you say both the parts for the officiant and congregation? It seems a bit awkward -
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Adam.
Like as the
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I'd only make two changes to that order for solo use.
1) Cut the general absolution.
2) Cut the "The Lord be with you" "And also with you" at the conclusion.
All the rest works fine, ISTM.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
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quote:
Originally posted by sheela-na-gig:
I'm new to this sort of thing, so bear with me...
Lots of us are new to the intricacies of trying to pray the daily offices. No need to apologize. Everyone should be assured that if they ask a "dumb" or "beginner" question there will be a large number of Eccles readers heaving a huge sigh of relief that someone had the nerve to ask "that question".
Think of it as providing an opportunity for others to provide spiritual and liturgical support. Everyone is better off for the question having been asked.
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DitzySpike
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Inspired by everyone here, I've finally given into temptation and bought a "Book of Hours" by William G Storey. (The Everyday and the Seasonal). I'll let you know how I get on Anyone else used these?
Tubbs
I think the two books are excellent compilations. The grail inclusive psalms are good to pray. The versions of Office Hymns from New Camadolese are imaginative. The arrangement of Psalms are short and easy to use. There's even a Marian Te Deum.
Good for busy people who wants a short office, or those who appreciate a quiet contemplative one.
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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
I'd only make two changes to that order for solo use.
1) Cut the general absolution.
2) Cut the "The Lord be with you" "And also with you" at the conclusion.
All the rest works fine, ISTM.
I'd agree with that. With the second, though, I'd replace it with "Lord, hear our prayer" and "Let our cry come unto You".
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Divine Office
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For those awaiting the publication of the Lancelot Andrewes Press reprint of The Monastic Diurnal ,the publisher is now accepting advance orders for the book via Paypal on their website at www.andrewespress.com. The price is $55 plus $7.50 postage to Canada and $9 postage to all other areas outwith the USA.
It is still hoped to ship the book on March 15th.
DIVINE OFFICE
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Divine Office
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Dear SHSV
Funnily enough, I have also toyed with the idea of composing an office book of my own!
I had the idea of creating a New Anglican Breviary, which would have had the BCP psalms arranged in the current RC four-week pattern, with suitable translations of the biblical canticles and the traditional office hymns. The KJB or possibly the Douai bible would be used for the short readings.
However, no doubt such a project would run into difficulties concerning Crown Copyright of parts of the BCP!!!
DIVINE OFFICE
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Oblatus
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
However, no doubt such a project would run into difficulties concerning Crown Copyright of parts of the BCP!!!
Probably not if you keep it for your own use, right?
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DitzySpike
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Dear SHSV
Funnily enough, I have also toyed with the idea of composing an office book of my own!
I had the idea of creating a New Anglican Breviary, which would have had the BCP psalms arranged in the current RC four-week pattern, with suitable translations of the biblical canticles and the traditional office hymns. The KJB or possibly the Douai bible would be used for the short readings.
However, no doubt such a project would run into difficulties concerning Crown Copyright of parts of the BCP!!!
DIVINE OFFICE
I think you can do that with Daniel Lula's Anglican Breviary with a copy of the Divine Office psalm schema attached to it. I believe the AB has its psalms indexed? Plenty of pages flipping though.
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Swick
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Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
[QB] I'd only make two changes to that order for solo use.
1) Cut the general absolution.
2) Cut the "The Lord be with you" "And also with you" at the conclusion.
Are there any other parts of the Office that solo prayers usually omit? In the Daily Office of the Episcopal church, I usually don't pray the suffrages--except Suffrages B at Evening Prayer, which is really nice, and pray the Apostles' Creed just once a day.
The 1985 Canadian Book of Alternative Services has an alternative to the Apostles' Creed, Hear O Israel, that I'll sometimes use in the Evening if I've already said the Creed. Does anyone else use this?
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
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Swick,
Just in case you'd like a little help with quoting etc, check out the UBB Practice Thread where you can have a few practice gos.
Anselmina/Ecclesiantics Host
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Craigmaddie
c/o The Pickwick Club
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I have spent most of this afternoon reading through this thread - phew!
My RCIA sponsor tries to read the Daily Office every day and I'm interested in trying to incorporate it into my daily prayer life (I tend to do Christian meditation and the Examen). My sponsor lent me a small book with morning and evening prayer. My question is - is it possible to chant the antiphons? If so, what's the best way of going about learning how to do it?
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Via Veritas Vita
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Clavus
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You can chant the antiphons (and psalms) in Latin! See Tridentinische Messe, click on Nocturnale, click on Wissenschaftlischer Diskurs, click on Liturgia Horarum I (Liber Antiphonarius). The site is in German and promotes the Tridentine Rite, but this Liber Antiphonarius is the new one.
For information about singing plainchant, see Chant Made Simple or Plainchant for Everyone.
For English language stuff 'based on' plainchant, see St Meinrad .
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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Choirboy
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I would love to be able to use the 1961 Brevarium Romanum, but my knowledge of Latin and the rubrics is too poor!
Try taking a look at www.breviary.net. It is one of the old editions of the Roman breviary done up for the internet. Saves a bit on the rubrics as for the most part the html lays things out for you. On the other hand, you still need to know the basics, and I would find it awkward to try to print this out so you would need to pray in front of your computer.
Between the helpful ordo Kalendar here and the corresponding ordo for the Anglican Breviary at www.anglicanbreviary.com , both of which guide you through the worst of the rubrics, I seem to be stumbling through quite nicely. The Anglican Breviary site also has a helpful tutorial for how each office is put together - i.e. what types of rubrics to expect.
[ETA look not loot. Take a look. It may well be part of the treasure of the Church, but all the same...]
[ 06. March 2006, 18:51: Message edited by: Choirboy ]
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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moveable_type
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
However, no doubt such a project would run into difficulties concerning Crown Copyright of parts of the BCP!!!
Probably not if you keep it for your own use, right?
You could organize it yourself in MS Word and work from the computer screen.
(Where this idea leads, of course, is a prie-dieu with a slot built in for a laptop. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Craigmaddie:
My question is - is it possible to chant the antiphons? If so, what's the best way of going about learning how to do it?
If you want to learn Gregorian Chant on your own, I highly recommend "A Gregorian Chant Master Class" by Dr. Theodore Marier. The order procedure on that website is too complicated, but you can get it from online US bookshops like Stella Maris (the pic they show for the book is wrong, but if you order you get the right thing). Increasingly, courses in Chanting are offered (again) in local parishes. If that's not the case for you, you may wish to contact the Gregorian Association for help. (I assume you are living in the UK.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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DitzySpike
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Saw some scans of The English Office Book. Very nice! Office Hymns from the English Hymnal. Proper Antiphons to both Psalms and Gospel Canticles are given. The Final Marian Antiphons are included. I hope my copy arrives from Canterbury Press soon.
Those who are interested in doing patristic lection may want to seek out copies of 'A Word in Season' which is used by Benedictines for Vigils; included in the 3-volume books are a lectionary reference for Sciptural texts and the full printed texts of patristic lessons. Responsaries are also provided for every lessons.
I was also able to look through the Psalm arrangement done by Maxwell Johnson in a Benedictine Prayer Book. What he did was quite brilliant. Besides keeping faithfully to arrangement 'A' in the monastic thesaurus, the selection done for a week draws from psalms across the different genre. Thus, he keeps faithfully to spirit of the Benedictine principle of covering the entire range of the Psalter in a week, or twice in two weeks.
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Craigmaddie
c/o The Pickwick Club
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Thanks, Clavus and IngoB!
Do any breviaries have musical notation in order to chant the antiphons (I'm assuming that is just the antiphons that you can chant)?
My sponsor has lent me A Shorter Morning and Evening Prayer. Would you recommend that as a good place to start?
[ 07. March 2006, 14:34: Message edited by: Craigmaddie ]
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Via Veritas Vita
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