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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: Daily offices
David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
If we're going by the book most used, it would be most accurage to say it's from The Manual of Plainsong!

If you think the paltry amount of psalmody we sing at E&B exceeds those overly-long lections from the scriptures, you're not listening properly!

If we're going by the book most used, it would be most accurate to say it's from The Holy Bible.

More psalms and shorter lections, I say!

Dave

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Adam.

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CCP will eat itself in 2008.

(It's official, I did the calculations today.)

By that, I mean this: in CCP the big bit of ordinary time is divided thus

Sundays after Trinity (up to 21 of these)
+ Last Sunday after Trinity
+ All Saint's Sunday
+ 3rd, 2nd, 1st Sunday before Advent.

Meaning it tells you what to do for 26 weeks between Pentecost and Advent. However, in 2008 we get 27 of these. What will the world come to?

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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The Scrumpmeister
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I can't wait for the St. Colman Prayer Book to be published. It will be a western rite Orthodox breviary, based largely on the Sarum Psalter and other sources. I'm rather excited.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Adeodatus
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Does anyone know if there are any plans to publish the CW Psalter in a volume by itself?

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Thurible
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It already is, Father. You can get it set to chant here.

Thurible

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Adeodatus
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Well blow me down, I never noticed that. Thanks, Thurible. I don't suppose there's a version without any pointing is there?

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Thurible
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Only the draft edition, which is down the page linked to above. However, it's got grotty stuff down the sides of the pages, to show it's a draft, I suppose.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Adam.

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I've just bought the 1 volume RC Daily Office book called "Christian Prayer". It seems remarkably difficult to use, compared with, say, the 1662 or CCP, but luckily there are cribs available.

I have the St. Joseph Guide and I'm also cross-referencing what I'm thinking I'm meant to be doing with what this website say I should be doing. I'm almost right (though the book and the website disagree with hymn recommendations), but I'm completely lost as to how I should find the concluding prayer.

The St. Joseph guide directs me to page 882 which says the conclusion is "as in the Ordinary". But, the Ordinary tells me that "For the weekday offices, the concluding prayer is taken from the current week of the Psalter." Which is where I'd just come from.

The website gives a very nice concluding prayer, but I can't find it anywhere in the book!

Any help?

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Amazing Grace*

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I have "Shorter Christian Prayer", which is a lovely compact version of the above, and I find it pretty confusing as well. (And I thought picking through the Canticles in the ECUSA BCP MP/EP was tough [Killing me] )

Is there some "How to pray the Daily Office" guide for RCs in printed form? I had been thinking of buying the book for my SIL but I wouldn't want to leave her to muddle through it.

Charlotte

[ 18. May 2005, 03:11: Message edited by: Amazing Grace ]

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.sig on vacation

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IngoB

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Try The Divine Office for DODOS. Although it is mainly concerned with the four volume version, it should answer all relevant questions.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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FCB

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quote:
Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
The St. Joseph guide directs me to page 882 which says the conclusion is "as in the Ordinary". But, the Ordinary tells me that "For the weekday offices, the concluding prayer is taken from the current week of the Psalter." Which is where I'd just come from.

There are a couple different versions of Christian Prayer out there, but in the one that I have used the concluding prayers during the weeks of Ordinary Time are found in the psalter and the concluding prayer on Sundays is found in the Ordinary of that Sunday.

I don't know if that is true of your version.

FCB

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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DitzySpike
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quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:

Is there some "How to pray the Daily Office" guide for RCs in printed form? I had been thinking of buying the book for my SIL but I wouldn't want to leave her to muddle through it.

Charlotte

Not a guide but the complete texts for the hours. Liturgy of the Hours Apostolate
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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
There are a couple different versions of Christian Prayer out there, but in the one that I have used the concluding prayers during the weeks of Ordinary Time are found in the psalter and the concluding prayer on Sundays is found in the Ordinary of that Sunday.

Thanks, FCB, that is indeed true of mine! I was somewhat confused as, immediately after printing the concluding prayer, a rubric in the Psalter directed me back to the Ordinary for the Conclusion. I've now worked out that the conclusion doesn't include the concluding prayer and am all happy.

"That," as Pete - or was it Dud? - once put it, "could confuse a stupid person."

IngoB, thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately, I was a very naughty boy in the bookstore yesterday. I only went in to get a catechism and left with... well, I shan't start the litany. So, no more book buying for me for a little while.

Thanks for the link, DitzySpike: I've been using that website to confirm I'm using the book right.

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dyfrig
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As a slight tangent, but still in the general area, I'm interested in people's use of translations of the psalter.

Do people use the one in the office book in front of them, or do you have a preferred translation you always go back to?

Does anyone use a "non-standard" psalter, such as the poetic translations by Peter Levi or Gordon Jackson?

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GreyFace
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Probably not quite what you're asking dyfrig, but I use the one in the book in front of me when I'm reading them, and switch to the parish psalter if I'm going to sing, for practical reasons like pointing and the notes being in close proximity [Big Grin]

Which I choose, is typically based on my level of charity towards those within earshot, rather than a translational preference.

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dyfrig
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So it's just me who sings Anglican chant out loud on the train, then?

This explains why I get carriages to myself.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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seasick

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quote:
dyfrig said:
So it's just me who sings Anglican chant out loud on the train, then?

This explains why I get carriages to myself.

You get carriages to yourself? Maybe I should try that...

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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dyfrig
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Admittedly, putting on the balaclava and waving a gun around shouting "Everybody off" may also contribute to my commutorial comfort.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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GreyFace
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It's possible, but I think it's more likely the blue scarf.
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dyfrig
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Oi! You leave the scarf out of it, pal. This scarf was hand-woven by Samoan virgins from the hair of a delectable troop of choirboys, and is soft and gentle on the skin, and was once in the posession of Prester John.

Fifteen quid off eBay. Bargain.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Pyx_e

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quote:
This scarf was hand-woven by Samoan virgins from the hair of a delectable troop of choirboys, and is soft and gentle on the skin , and was once in the posession of Prester John.
Now I am thinking of you naked except for your scarf, damn goggi.

P

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dyfrig
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Well, if you could be bothered to attend Chapel Perilous once in a while, you'd be able to see me in all my glory. Alt.worship? You ain't seen nothing, mate.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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David Goode
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Daily officers,

To change (or, rather, to get back to) the subject a bit, I've devised and tested a two-week psalter schema based very closely indeed on the schema of our most holy father Benedict.

It's primarily designed for use with Common Worship Daily Prayer (CWDP), but will function perfectly well as a stand-alone psalter schema with any office book.

The schema offers a full recitation of the psalter over four offices per day (matins or contemplative engagement with the psalter, lauds, midday prayer, and vespers [compline is as per CWDP]) in a two-week cycle, and follows closely the Benedictine schema for all hours of the daily office of the Church of England, while including the wide and excellent range of canticles in CWDP.

I'm currently working on a schema for the temporale and sanctorale of the CW lectionary, again based on the Benedictine schema to fit in with CWDP. What's available, and on offer now, is the ferial psalter.

If anyone's interested, let me know here, and I'll put a PDF of the ferial psalter on my web site for download. If you do decide to download it, some feedback after a few weeks of use would be nice!

Dave

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Chorister

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Nowadays I prefer the Oxford Psalter to the Parish Psalter. I know better to sing on trains, but often find myself humming round Safeway. It is much easier to remember Psalms by heart if you sing/hum them to Anglican Chant.

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dj_ordinaire
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Mm, I do love to have a good warble of Anglican chant, particularly whilst out walking in some suitably desolate part of the countryside.

Always marginally embarassing to forget oneself and issue forth a snatch of it on public transport, however - obviously I lack the authority conferred by that smooth-as-a-baby's-bottom Blue Scarf.

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
As a slight tangent, but still in the general area, I'm interested in people's use of translations of the psalter.

Do people use the one in the office book in front of them, or do you have a preferred translation you always go back to?

I'd like to memorize the psalms, and I suppose I have mostly memorized a lot of them, so I stick with one translation most of the time: the USA BCP 1979. Fortunately, a lot of different office books use that one, so I have room for variety.

For a fresh read, I sometimes haul out the Grail, the Inclusive Grail, or the banned ICEL Psalter. Or, of course, Coverdale/Great Bible in one redaction or another.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Daily officers,

To change (or, rather, to get back to) the subject a bit, I've devised and tested a two-week psalter schema based very closely indeed on the schema of our most holy father Benedict.

...

If anyone's interested, let me know here, and I'll put a PDF of the ferial psalter on my web site for download. If you do decide to download it, some feedback after a few weeks of use would be nice!

David, please make the PDF available. This sounds very useful and well considered. I'd be happy to beta-test it. Thanks also for all of your work on office-related things. You and I seem to be on a similar wavelength about the Divine Office and many aspects of it!
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
As a slight tangent, but still in the general area, I'm interested in people's use of translations of the psalter.

Do people use the one in the office book in front of them, or do you have a preferred translation you always go back to?

Does anyone use a "non-standard" psalter, such as the poetic translations by Peter Levi or Gordon Jackson?

Coverdale, always.

Having said that, The Grail is rather nice.

Coverdale may be found set to real chant here.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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DitzySpike
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I rather like the ICEL Psalter, for its simplicity and poetic language where meaning is conveyed much by the sound of the words chosen. It's really impractical to lug a few books around and so I'm happy using the 1979 Prayer Book Psalter with the Prayer Book Office.

As for Psalm schema, something should be said for the one found in Order of the Holy Cross's Monastic Breviary. Morning Psalms are arranged in three movements based thematically on human needs; God's promise; and then praise. The evening psalms tend to be historical. It works well with my 'day rhythm'. In the morning it is easier for me to focus on the words, and the predictable pattern (as mentioned above) helps me to be more engaged with the words of the psalms. I tend to be easily distracted with thoughts in the evening and the historical psalms can provide some 'intertextual' meanings with my own distracted thoughts as I read them. The two-week schema and four-fold office is a bit too much for me to handle though.

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Second Mouse

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Nowadays I prefer the Oxford Psalter to the Parish Psalter. I know better to sing on trains, but often find myself humming round Safeway. It is much easier to remember Psalms by heart if you sing/hum them to Anglican Chant.

I love the idea of something that makes it much easier to remember the psalms.....But what is Anglican Chant?
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David Goode
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For those interested, I've popped a copy of my draft ferial schema on my CUS home page

The idea is to use the ferial psalter for everything except Principal Festivals (red-letter days) and those Festivals for which you'd rather have a festal psalter. There'll be a festal psalter with proper psalms for red- and bold-letter days in due course.

I've been using the schema for Matins followed immediately by Lauds, Midday Prayers, Vespers, and then Compline 'as per the book'.

For an example, I've made Matins consist of two nocturns of three psalms, each nocturn followed by one or two readings, the lectionary scripture readings after the first nocturn, and a sanctoral or patristic reading after the second. On Sundays, when there are more Matin psalms, divide what's shown in half to make two nocturns, or in three to make three nocturns. Then on red-letter days, Te Deum and the start of Lauds from the book; on ferial days, the final reading followed immediately by the start of Lauds.

At Lauds and Vespers, I've been omitting the opening psalm or canticle from CWDP, as allowed by the rubrics, and jumping straight from 'Glory to the Father...' to the opening prayers, followed by the psalter. At Lauds, it's possible to use Ps 67 in place of the opening psalm or canticle, then the opening prayers and psalter.

At Matins, I've been using the readings from the CW office lectionary, and the shorter readings from 'Prayer during the day' at Lauds, Midday, and Vespers. Midday prayers is pretty much from the book with the draft schema (which is the same as the alternative psalter in the book).

This all seems to work quite well for me. It's a substantial undertaking, though. If you decide to try it, do let me know how you get on.

Oh, and one more thing: it's laid out on the page to be printed duplex, trimmed and folded into an A6 four-page booklet. If you're not doing this, the Matin psalms are roughly in numerical order, which is the way to check you have the thing ordered correctly.

Dave

[ 26. May 2005, 06:56: Message edited by: David Goode ]

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:


Coverdale may be found set to real chant here.

Mm, wonderful looking book... With an encomium from Scott as well!

--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...

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GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by Second Mouse:
I love the idea of something that makes it much easier to remember the psalms.....But what is Anglican Chant?

This page from CCEL isn't a bad start. To hear it done, most Anglican Evensongs will either have a choir singing it alone, or choir + congregation.

Armed with minimal experience thereof, something like the Parish Psalter (10 quid from the usual suspects) is helpful in actually doing it - particularly for the chants [Biased] , but you can make a decent guess at sensible pointing from any translation, I suppose.

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Second Mouse

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Thank you!

Out of interest, what version of the psalms is used in Common Worship:Daily Prayer?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:


Coverdale may be found set to real chant here.

Mm, wonderful looking book... With an encomium from Scott as well!
Oh, is THAT what it's called? [Cool]
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David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Second Mouse:
Out of interest, what version of the psalms is used in Common Worship:Daily Prayer?

The Common Worship Psalter. I like it.

Dave

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GreyFace
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Anybody know of any half-decent downloads of Anglican chant? I was hoping to post something for Second Mouse but my search powers are weak today.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Does anyone use a "non-standard" psalter, such as the poetic translations by Peter Levi or Gordon Jackson?

When I was able to say two 'public' offices a day (ie with a colleague), we found it helpful to use the Jim Cotter versions at one of them, contrasting with the CW psalter. It's not a translation as such, quite a wild and creative paraphrase, but is a good kickstart into prayer. Though I would never feel happy using it exclusively because you do need to keep faith with scripture.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:

At Matins, I've been using the readings from the CW office lectionary, and the shorter readings from 'Prayer during the day' at Lauds, Midday, and Vespers. Midday prayers is pretty much from the book with the draft schema (which is the same as the alternative psalter in the book).

Thank you, Dave. Well done! Two questions, now that my lovely red-leather permanent CW:DP has arrived:

1. How do you start Matins: p. 108 in the new book looks like a good way (The Acclamation of Christ at the Dawning of the Day)?

2. Shorter readings from DP at Lauds, Midday, and Vespers: the same appointed one for the day at all three hours?

Wanting to try this out...Scott

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David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Thank you, Dave. Well done! Two questions, now that my lovely red-leather permanent CW:DP has arrived:

Yes, mine arrived yesterday. I'd been using the case-bound one prior to that. They're rather nice, aren't they?

quote:
1. How do you start Matins: p. 108 in the new book looks like a good way (The Acclamation of Christ at the Dawning of the Day)?
Usually with the preparatory prayers (on my web site, not in the book), then:

  • 'O Lord, open our lips...'
  • Ps 3 without antiphon, 'Glory to the Father...'
  • Ps 95 as invitatory with ferial antiphon from psalter on feriae or a suitable variation on festivals
  • The office hymn (though not always)
  • First nocturn of three psalms from the schema
  • Two scriptural lessons from the CW lectionary
  • Second nocturn from the schema
  • Reading either from 'Celebrating the Saints' or, on feriae, from 'Celebrating the Seasons'
  • On festivals, Te Deum, otherwise straight in to Lauds, beginning with 'O God make speed...'
  • Omit the printed psalm or canticle (as per rubric), then 'The night has passed...'
  • Ps 67 without antiphon
  • Psalter from the schema (psalms, then appointed OT canticle followed by Lauds psalms)
  • Short reading (see below)
  • Responsory, sometimes followed by office hymn
  • Benedictus with antiphon, ferial on feriae, otherwise proper or common, as per rubrics
  • Prayer, 'Lord have mercy... Our Father...'
  • Collect(s), common commemoration
  • Conclusion, as per the book
  • Final antiphon

I'll look at 'Dawning of the Day' for Sundays and Principal Festivals.

quote:
2. Shorter readings from DP at Lauds, Midday, and Vespers: the same appointed one for the day at all three hours?
I usually use the very short one marked 'Or, on any XXXday' at Lauds and Vespers, and the longer one for the appropriate week at 'Midday'. Unless I have missed 'Midday', in which case I'll take the longer one at Vespers.

quote:
Wanting to try this out...Scott
I hope you get on alright with it. Give me a shout if want to know anything else about how I use it, and also to let me know if you think of anything else and want me to try it out.

Dave

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Second Mouse

Citizen of Grand Fenwick
# 2793

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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Anybody know of any half-decent downloads of Anglican chant? I was hoping to post something for Second Mouse but my search powers are weak today.

Thank you - I appreciate the thought! Now I've read about it, I have a faint memory that the church I grew up in used to do the psalms like this for a while, so I do have a vague idea what it sounded like.
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Oblatus
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# 6278

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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
I hope you get on alright with it. Give me a shout if want to know anything else about how I use it, and also to let me know if you think of anything else and want me to try it out.
Dave

Many thanks, Dave, for all the guidance. I prayed Matins and Lauds your way this morning, and it worked out very well indeed. For the hymns I used Hymns for Prayer & Praise from The Canterbury Press, Norwich, and for the patristic lesson I used Robert Wright's Readings for the Daily Office From the Early Church, published by our Church Publishing Inc. I've got the SPCK CW lectionary and the REB with Apocrypha. So it's a little library of five books. [Smile] I could reduce it to three by using my 1979 BCP/NRSV combo.
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David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Many thanks, Dave, for all the guidance. I prayed Matins and Lauds your way this morning, and it worked out very well indeed. For the hymns I used Hymns for Prayer & Praise from The Canterbury Press, Norwich, and for the patristic lesson I used Robert Wright's Readings for the Daily Office From the Early Church, published by our Church Publishing Inc. I've got the SPCK CW lectionary and the REB with Apocrypha. So it's a little library of five books. [Smile] I could reduce it to three by using my 1979 BCP/NRSV combo.

Yes, it does require a small bookshelf nearby, I'm afraid. One of the main reasons I devised it this way, though, is that all the readings from other than the office book are done at Matins, and this means you then only have to take the office book with you during the day as everything else required is in there.

I haven't seen Robert Wright's book: is it in print?

Dave

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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
I haven't seen Robert Wright's book: is it in print?

Yes...
http://www.churchpublishing.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=product&ProductID=110

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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Apart from church services, does anybody actually say the office with anyone else, in more than the spiritual sense?

My partner and I pray an office together, occasionally.
That's beautiful, Scott. I only experienced this recently as I usually pray it alone (well, physically alone, if you know what I mean).

--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Many thanks, Dave, for all the guidance

Scott (and anyone else who might have downloaded the psalter schema),

I've corrected a couple of errors in my first upload. Please download the most recent version. There's an extra incentive to download, apart from my mistakes getting corrected: there now the beginnings of a festal psalter, and a psalter for the CWDP common office.

corrected and expanded schema

Dave

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quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
My partner and I pray an office together, occasionally.

That's beautiful, Scott. I only experienced this recently as I usually pray it alone (well, physically alone, if you know what I mean).
In our guest bedroom, we have an altar set up: a table with a white cloth, with an icon of Christ on the wall above it (that was central to our commitment ceremony); a crucifix on the table, along with candles and icons. On the shelf under the altar top are two St. Dunstan's Plainchant Psalters, a BCP, and other books. We stand or sit in front of this altar when we pray the Office together. I should really develop the discipline of praying the Office there even when alone. As it happens, I haven't prayed at all yet today, and I want to pray the whole Office of the Visitation, so it'll be a marathon session when I settle down and do it.
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# 6278

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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
I've corrected a couple of errors in my first upload. Please download the most recent version. There's an extra incentive to download, apart from my mistakes getting corrected: there now the beginnings of a festal psalter, and a psalter for the CWDP common office.
corrected and expanded schema

Many thanks for this, Dave. I gather we're in Week 1 now; is there a system for determining the current week? With other two-week schemas I've sometimes consulted universalis.com to see what week of the RC liturgy of the hours it is; if 1 or 3, then 1; if 2 or 4, then 2.
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David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Many thanks for this, Dave. I gather we're in Week 1 now; is there a system for determining the current week? With other two-week schemas I've sometimes consulted universalis.com to see what week of the RC liturgy of the hours it is; if 1 or 3, then 1; if 2 or 4, then 2.

That's a good way of deciding. I'm actually on week two, just to be awkward! But, I'm not sure it really matters: it's not as if this is an official, or widely-followed schema.

However, if you want some solidarity, stay on the course you're on, and I'll repeat week two next week to bring us into line.

[thinks for a minute]

I've had an idea. Week one should start on the first Sunday of Advent, the Monday after Low Sunday (You'll see why when I finish the temporal schema), and the Monday after Pentecost. How's that sound?

And how did you get on with praying the whole Visitation office in one go yesterday? That sounds like a lot of office ;-)

Dave

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# 6278

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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
I've had an idea. Week one should start on the first Sunday of Advent, the Monday after Low Sunday (You'll see why when I finish the temporal schema), and the Monday after Pentecost. How's that sound?

And how did you get on with praying the whole Visitation office in one go yesterday? That sounds like a lot of office ;-)

I just remembered that New Melleray Abbey (Trappists) in Iowa use a two-week psalter scheme, and here's how they decide which week it is:

"To determine which week of the two-week cycle we are singing, use this tip. If the previous Sunday is an odd number (1st week in Lent, 3rd week in Easter, 21st week in common time), then we will be singing the odd-week cycle. If the previous Sunday is an even number, then we will be singing the even-week cycle." -from http://www.newmelleray.org

So by that plan, you're right to be in Week 2. Since this coming Sunday is the 3rd after Pentecost, the current week is the 2nd after Pentecost. Oops...CW uses Trinity, right? Hmm...but in the RC calendar we're in Week 9 of Ordinary Time/Week 9 of the Year/whatever. So that would make it Week 1. Not sure what to do! Wouldn't want to pray the wrong psalms, eh? [Smile]

I didn't actually pray at all yesterday, which was very frustrating. Too many demands on me and interruptions prevented prayer. A constant problem.

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