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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily offices
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I just remembered that New Melleray Abbey (Trappists) in Iowa...
Yes, I've seen, and tried, their schema, but I didn't get on with it. I suppose I've been too used to the Benedictine schema.
quote:
Oops...CW uses Trinity, right?
Oh yes. The Church of England has counted Sundays after Trinity not Pentecost for at least a millennium, but we resume ordinary time on the Monday after Pentecost. To bring myself into line, I'll switch to week one tomorrow morning.
quote:
Not sure what to do! Wouldn't want to pray the wrong psalms, eh? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Not possible ;-)
quote:
I didn't actually pray at all yesterday, which was very frustrating. Too many demands on me and interruptions prevented prayer. A constant problem.
I know the problem.
I've put an updated schema on my web site just now. It won't affect your current week, but there are some additions that might interest you.
Dave
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
I am happily following Dave Goode's schema and suggestions for a rich Benedictine office using the new Common Worship: Daily Prayer.
Has anyone received their copy of Benedictine Daily Prayer, a new breviary by a Lutheran oblate of St. John's (RC) Abbey? I gather the USA copies have been held up somewhere. European list members on a monastic list have been reporting on the copies they've received.
Scott, who never met a breviary he didn't feel the need to have
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
David Goode, your two-week psalter schema is working out very well. Thank you for it.
Am I right in thinking the only readings from the CW lectionary are the two appointed for the First Office? I suppose the Second Office lessons might be read as lectio, or read before Compline, which is a time when some monastic communities hear a lesson, biblical or patristic.
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
David Goode, your two-week psalter schema is working out very well. Thank you for it.
Am I right in thinking the only readings from the CW lectionary are the two appointed for the First Office? I suppose the Second Office lessons might be read as lectio, or read before Compline, which is a time when some monastic communities hear a lesson, biblical or patristic.
Thanks Scott. I must confess to two things:
First, I spotted a mistake earlier on today, which I'll correct.
Secondly, I've a v2 of the schema which has restored the full Benedictine psalter for Lauds and Vespers. Matins, Midday and Compline remain unchanged, with only Matins now on the two-week cycle. There's a copy of it here if you're interested.
I usually read the First Office lectionary at Matins, as you say. The other office lectionary could be used as you wish. You could, for example, ignore it completely. Or you could split it across Lauds and Vespers: OT at Lauds, naturally, and NT at Vespers. Or, as you suggest, you could read one or both lessons before Compline, which is a commendable Benedictine custom. Or you could read them at some other time in the day, as a non-liturgical devotion.
That's one of things I love and appreciate about the CW services and lectionary: they allow considerable freedom. Freedom to experiment for a while and 'get it right', or freedom to experiment in the long-term.
Pray for us, especially for Sam's dad, John, who's not well and with no realistic hope of recovering (he's not dying, but he's not going to get better, such is the damage, and she's rightly concerned about her dad).
Dave
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
Anglicans Online this week has a link to a new site:
http://fullhomelydivinity.org/
If you follow the links to music you'll find a review of the St. Dunstan's Psalter. In general the review is very favorable, but there are some qibbles quibbled that no chant geek will want to miss.
b.
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
I'm a big fan of the Celebrating Common Prayer pocket edition, and have just put in an order for the new updated version that follows the Common Worship materials more closely.
Thought the new "definitive edition" of CW Daily Prayer is superb, a beautiful book too. But it's just too heavy for taking on the train. Ditto the full version of CCP. But in any case, I prefer the CCP Pocket Edition because it's specifically designed for individual use, which makes it ideal for that purpose. In particular, the office is somewhat simplified, with fewer canticles and responses than the full edition of CCP, or CW:DP.
As for readings, I tend to follow my own pattern of psalms and readings rather than a lectionary, aimed at reading the whole Bible in roughly 18 months to two years.
So the end result looks something like an "evangelical" quiet-time embedded within a "catholic" office.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I'm a big fan of the Celebrating Common Prayer pocket edition, and have just put in an order for the new updated version that follows the Common Worship materials more closely.
The edition you ordered is excellent, IMO, especially for traveling. It provides a surprisingly substantial one-book office. It also doesn't look so very prayer-bookish, in case that matters to avoid harassment on public transport.
Might be an interesting angle to this topic: anyone have stories of praying the Divine Office (in any form) on public transport and getting reactions positive or negative? Here in Chicago, I'm pleased to see lots of people reading the Bible and some reading a breviary, usually the Roman Catholic Liturgy of the Hours in one edition or another.
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
I've never been "harassed" for reading my Bible or praying the Office on the train. Unless you count well-meaning fellow-Christians who engage you in conversation when they see you reading a Christian book... ;-)
Mind you, I'm enough of an evangelical to be nervous about being seen using an office book like CCP. Not because it constitutes "vain repetitions" (d'oh!), or standing on a street corner to be seen of men, but, um, because it looks "religious", and we get it drummed into us from an early age that doing anything that looks remotely religious in a "formal" sense is a Bad Witness. (Double d'oh!)
[ 07. June 2005, 16:03: Message edited by: John H ]
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by basso:
Anglicans Online this week has a link to a new site:
http://fullhomelydivinity.org/
If you follow the links to music you'll find a review of the St. Dunstan's Psalter. In general the review is very favorable, but there are some qibbles quibbled that no chant geek will want to miss.
b.
Thanks for that link, basso. Of course, now I'm even more impatient for my copy of the Psalter to arrive.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:
Originally posted by basso:
Anglicans Online this week has a link to a new site:
http://fullhomelydivinity.org/
If you follow the links to music you'll find a review of the St. Dunstan's Psalter. In general the review is very favorable, but there are some qibbles quibbled that no chant geek will want to miss.
b.
Thanks for that link, basso. Of course, now I'm even more impatient for my copy of the Psalter to arrive.
I'll second those thanks for that link. Interesting article - I've posted about it on my blog, here (hope posting links to one's own blog isn't considered bad taste round here... ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by basso:
Anglicans Online this week has a link to a new site:
http://fullhomelydivinity.org/
This is a tangent, but it's driving me nuts. "Full homely" What on earth is that supposed to mean? Is it decorated with chinz (British version of "homely")? Or is it extremely plain? (American version of "homely")?
Is it meant to be homily? If so, what's a partial homily?
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Didn't read the home page, did you. They explain it.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Didn't read the home page, did you. They explain it.
Ta. Did search for an explanation but didn't see any. Will check the homepage.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
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Scholar Gypsy
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# 7210
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Posted
I wonder if you could give me some advice?
I want to inject a bit more discipline into my (practically non-existent) prayer life by trying to say a morning and evening office myself as close to everyday as possible (I get Evensong in chapel 3x a week). Ideally I'd like to do MP and Compline
Which would be a good book to start with? I need something simple and easy to follow, but I don't mind if bible readings/psalms need to be looked up separately. I own a BCP, but not much else, but don't mind buying if it's worth it.
I've tried looking at the CofE's online daily offices, but I can't prayer off a computer screen and would really like a book to do it from.
Any suggestions? I've read most of this thread, but most of the discussion is a bit complicated and detailed!
Many thanks
S
Posts: 822 | From: Oxford | Registered: May 2004
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
I recommend this - Celebrating Common Prayer . On the grounds that a) it's what I use, and b) it's only seven quid.
I didn't know this existed and, thanks to John H's post upthread, I just bought it. It will save me taking Common Prayer, my bible and the lectionary on the tube with me. Thanks to both for the mention.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Second Mouse
Citizen of Grand Fenwick
# 2793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
I recommend this - Celebrating Common Prayer . On the grounds that a) it's what I use, and b) it's only seven quid.
I didn't know this existed and, thanks to John H's post upthread, I just bought it. It will save me taking Common Prayer, my bible and the lectionary on the tube with me. Thanks to both for the mention.
Could anyone explain the link between this book and Common Worship? I couldn't quite make it out from the Amazon description. (Is it just me being dense??)
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by xSx:
I wonder if you could give me some advice?
I want to inject a bit more discipline into my (practically non-existent) prayer life by trying to say a morning and evening office myself as close to everyday as possible...
Any suggestions? I've read most of this thread, but most of the discussion is a bit complicated and detailed!
GreyFace's suggestion is good with one caveat: it's a rather repetitive office and if you use it every day you're likely to get bored with it at some point. My suggestion has to be Common Worship: Daily Prayer. It's rich and varied enough not to get boring. If you also get the lectionary to go with it, you'll have enough to get you started.
Common Worship Daily Prayer (30 per cent discount)
Lectionary (until Advent 2005)
Give that a try for a while and, if you fancy a bit more, come back and we'll help you out ;-)
Dave
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Second Mouse:
Could anyone explain the link between this book and Common Worship? I couldn't quite make it out from the Amazon description. (Is it just me being dense??)
Yes, the Forward states that it is an updated version of Celebrating Common Prayer, The Pocket Version for those who "now expect their daily prayer to use the texts that are in Common Worship Daily Prayer".
Common Worship Daily Prayer itself drew a lot on Celebrating Common Prayer.
[Edited to correct punctuation.]
[ 08. June 2005, 18:22: Message edited by: Seeker963 ]
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Second Mouse:
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
I recommend this - Celebrating Common Prayer . On the grounds that a) it's what I use, and b) it's only seven quid.
I didn't know this existed and, thanks to John H's post upthread, I just bought it. It will save me taking Common Prayer, my bible and the lectionary on the tube with me. Thanks to both for the mention.
Could anyone explain the link between this book and Common Worship? I couldn't quite make it out from the Amazon description. (Is it just me being dense??)
There isn't one.
The Alternative Service Book 1980 offered minimal provision for the recitation of the Divine Office, and what little it did offer was about as inspiring as chewing polystyrene.
The Franciscans compiled Celebrating Common Prayer for their own use, and as, at the time, this was the best and most Catholic book of offices in modern language that the Church of England had seen since pre-reformation days, it was more widely adopted. However, this publication was not a venture of the Church of England, was never submitted to the General Synod for authorisation and so was never in any true sense, an official book of the Church of England - this ws never its intended purpose. It had no more authority than, say, The Anglican Breviary or the office books at use at Mirfield. I personally found it to be not particularly good, rather confusing, and of the ilk that adopted Catholic practices but in a watered-down fashion, as though ashamed of them.
The authorisation of the ASB1980 has lapsed, and this has been superseded by Common Worship, which contains much more generous provision for the Divine Office. This is part of the authorised services of the Church of England, and although many CCP die-hards will still use CCP, as this is what has nourished them for years, Common Worship is far superior and is officially authorised for public use in the Church of England.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
I think CW:DP is excellent, but CCP's pocket editions are better for taking on the train, especially in conjunction with a Bible. CW:DP seems to weigh about the same as a half-brick.
The texts of CCP and CW:DP are both available on the web, so you can get some idea of what you think of each one before you buy (though it's really only when you use an office that you can really begin to evaluate it - it's a tool for prayer, not a book just for reading).
But I should also point out that CW:DP is in many respects no more "authorised" than CCP. It has been approved and recommended by the House of Bishops, but it has not been officially approved by Synod (parts of it might make some evangelicals wince, for starters), and its authorisation stems mainly from compliance with the requirements for a "Service of the Word". CCP also complies with these requirements, and so it is also now a legally-authorised service, for those for whom this matters (I'm a Lutheran, so the legal requirements for the C of E are no longer an issue for me!).
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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TubaMirum
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# 8282
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Posted
Awhile ago I bought "Guard Us Sleeping," a CD put out by the Society of St. John Evangelist. It's sung Compline; there are two versions of the service, plus numerous hymns and songs. You can get it at Cowley Publications (http://www.cowley.org/) or at Amazon.com.
I got it because I really like singing the Offices, rather than saying them, and this is a way to do it at home, even by myself.
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod's new "Lutheran Service Book" includes settings for chanted matins, vespers and compline. The standard is variable (the pointing for the Te Deum is particularly dire) but the compline setting in particular is very nice, with a lovely setting of the Nunc Dimittis that I use even when saying Compline from CCP or CW:DP.
Click here for PDF setting of compline.
Click here for links to the other LSB settings.
The main Lutheran services, including the Communion services, are all set almost entirely to chanting, though sadly many Lutheran churches don't bother with the chanting these days.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Common Worship is far superior
May well be the case, but it's also a lot heavier.
Just to add that John H's link is to the text of the full version. The Pocket Edition is something of a revision, I think - much of the extra material is gone, but it has the advantage of including Compline.
And I rather like the fact the the second page that actually contains prayers, consists of the Jesus Prayer (as made famous by the Plot) and Angelus Domini. But that's showing my prejudices ;-)
Any of the CW insiders here know if there's likely to be an equivalent little book for CWDP, or would that negate its advantages?
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Scholar Gypsy
Shipmate
# 7210
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Posted
I think from what's been said here, I'll end up going for the Celebrating Common Prayer, just because it's smaller and lighter and I'm not too bothered by repetition at the moment (though could you expand on in what way it is repetitious?)
If I find I'm getting bored/want more, I can always come back to you all
Thanks,
S
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by xSx:
(though could you expand on in what way it is repetitious?)
If I find I'm getting bored/want more, I can always come back to you all
Just having bought it today, everything is done by 7 - for the seven days of the week and the 7 principle seasons. Sunday & Easter, Monday & Pentecost, etc., etc. This is repeated with the Psalms and with the scripture readings for the day. The collects for Saints Days, Common Collects and each Sunday are not provided as they are in the "big" Common Worship Daily Prayer.
For me, the biggest issue will be the scripture readings although I don't see why I couldn't use the lectionary readings for the day and a compact bible.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
For me, the biggest issue will be the scripture readings although I don't see why I couldn't use the lectionary readings for the day and a compact bible.
Yes, when I used it I used the ECUSA readings for the day instead of their (incredibly short) readings. There are three of these, so I put the OT reading in between the psalm and OT canticle in Morning Prayer, and the Epistle after the OT canticle (replacing the reading). I then just replaced the Evening Prayer reading with the ECUSA Gospel reading.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
But I should also point out that CW:DP is in many respects no more "authorised" than CCP. It has been approved and recommended by the House of Bishops, but it has not been officially approved by Synod (parts of it might make some evangelicals wince, for starters), and its authorisation stems mainly from compliance with the requirements for a "Service of the Word". CCP also complies with these requirements, and so it is also now a legally-authorised service, for those for whom this matters (I'm a Lutheran, so the legal requirements for the C of E are no longer an issue for me!).
From CW:DP, pvii, Authorization
CW:DP is published at the request of the House of Bishops of the General Synod of the Church of England. It comprises:
* services which comply with the provisions of A Service of the Word;
* material authorized for use until further resolution of the General Synod;
* material commended by the House of Bishops; and
* material, the use of which falls within the discretion allowed to the minister under the provisions of Canon B5.
Full authorization details are on p877.
This is not the case with CCP.
The CofE web site announces the publication of a 'definitive daily prayer book'. This is not the case with CCP.
It's therefore 'more authorised' than CCP in every respect ;-)
I'm intriuged as to why you think some evangelicals would wince at CW:DP. Not only does it accurately reflect the teaching of the CofE, but the chairman of the commission that produced it is is my colleague Canon Chris Cocksworth, Principal of, er, Ridley Hall.
Dave
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
FWIW, if you look closely at CCP, particularly the new version using CW texts, you'll probably find it consists of:
* services which comply with the provisions of A Service of the Word;
* material authorized for use until further resolution of the General Synod;
* material commended by the House of Bishops; and
* material, the use of which falls within the discretion allowed to the minister under the provisions of Canon B5.
Even if it doesn't have a notice of authorisation (or a page on the C of E website!) saying this explicitly.
For Anglicans, I should think the big advantage of CW:DP is that it is *the* Office rather than merely *an* Office. There's a lot to be said for that. But CCP is still a legally-compliant Office.
And as for the point about Evangelicals, I suppose I had in mind more yer Reform, Church Society, Proc Trust-type Evangelicals than yer Ridley Hall, "open" Evangelicals. CW:DP makes suggestions about using icons as a focus for prayer, and includes prayers for the dead (eg the form of intercession for Passiontide) and material that addresses the Blessed Virgin Mary in the second person (eg the Magnificat refrain for the common of the BVM).
Then there's the more general point that most conservative evangelicals these days are suspicious of highly liturgical forms of prayer and worship.
I'm not trying to set CW:DP and CCP off against one another, or say that CW:DP 1s d4 suxx0r!! CCP r00lz!!! lol!!! or whatever. I'm no longer an Anglican, so I don't really have a dog in that fight.
But CW:DP is excellent; it is an official Office for the Church of England, along with the BCP; so it should be used by those C of E parishes that still maintain the requirement for a daily Office. It is also a *beautiful* book.
But it's not the only Office that complies with the legal requirements, so churches can still use CCP if they choose. And for lay people, other considerations come into play - for example, the practical consideration of needing a book that can be carried easily while travelling.
[ 09. June 2005, 08:36: Message edited by: John H ]
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
Posts: 423 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Clerestory
The middle of the C of E
# 721
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
But CW:DP is excellent; it is an official Office for the Church of England, along with the BCP; so it should be used by those C of E parishes that still maintain the requirement for a daily Office. It is also a *beautiful* book.
Agreed! I'm absolutely delighted with it. We so often hear about the C of E's various problems, but this book is a great achievement and deserves to be widely celebrated.
It is influenced and enriched by both catholic and evangelical traditions of daily prayer. It's flexible enough to be usable in many different contexts, but there's enough in it which is fixed to keep a sense of Common Worship. It's simple enough to be easy to use, but varied enough to celebrate the seasons very effectively.
I've been happily using the Preliminary Edition since it came out in 2002, but it's even better now to have a beautiful, leather-bound edition, whose form testifies to the importance of its contents.
I know that technically it's just yet another variety of a Service of the Word. But this will be seen as the Prayer of the Church by a great many people in the Church of England (and beyond), and we will benefit enormously from praying it together.
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
I've now taken delivery of the new(-ish) pocket version of CCP. Looking at it side-by-side with CW:DP, it tracks the latter very closely.
Basically it's a slightly abbreviated version of the seasonal provision in CW:DP, with material brought in from the CW:DP's daily provision for the daily pattern. One thing I always liked about CCP was the reprising of the church year during each week, and one mild criticism I have of CW:DP is that its provision for ordinary time is, in comparison to CCP, a bit bland (you lose the "Blessed are you..." prayers from the start of morning prayer, for example).
The texts are almost all CW, which is a big improvement, especially for the Gospel canticles. Compared with the old CCP pocket version, it has a bit more seasonal and daily variation - refrains for the Gospel canticles, for example.
Really, the new CCP pocket edition is all-but a pocket edition of CW:DP, but with a few tweaks to fit the slightly different CCP ethos. Highly recommended for CW:DP fans looking for something more portable.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
In praying CW:DP (Def.), the thing that jumped out at me as "How did that get past the evangelicals on the Liturgical Commission?" was a line in one of the general Intercessions (I'm afraid I don't have my copy to hand at the moment so I can't say which page) which goes something like:
"Lord, by your incarnation and baptism, you have opened the Kingdom of Heaven..."
Now, I may have misunderstood them, but I thought that evangelicals followed the John Stott line of the complete centrality (to the point of isolation) of the Cross, and, thus, would have expected "by your Cross and Resurrection", which Catholics could have coped with too.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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David Goode
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# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
In praying CW:DP (Def.), the thing that jumped out at me as "How did that get past the evangelicals on the Liturgical Commission?" was a line in one of the general Intercessions (I'm afraid I don't have my copy to hand at the moment so I can't say which page) which goes something like:
"Lord, by your incarnation and baptism, you have opened the Kingdom of Heaven..."
Now, I may have misunderstood them, but I thought that evangelicals followed the John Stott line of the complete centrality (to the point of isolation) of the Cross, and, thus, would have expected "by your Cross and Resurrection", which Catholics could have coped with too.
Yes, I hadn't noticed that one. The exact line is:
'In the baptism and birth of Jesus you have opened heaven to us...' [Form of intercession 9 on p374]
But who could possibly have any valid objection to that? The very next line is:
'Especially we remember... May your whole Church, living and departed, come to a joyful resurrection in your city of light.'
Form 14, on p379 is even more explicit:
'That all who with Christ have entered the shadow of death may rest in peace and rise in glory, let us pray to the Lord'
I could see evangelicals having an (invalid, of course!) objection to that. And, as John H pointed out, the Mother of God is invoked by name, spoken to directly in at least two places I can spot from a quick flick through the Sanctorale and Common. I can see them having (an equally invalid) objection to that, too. Asking for the help and defence of St Michael and All Angels, might not go down too well with them, either.
I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right: there is quite a lot in there that would offend protestant sensibilities. Not least of all if you also follow the CW lectionary with large chunks of the apocryphal and deutero-canonical books read as scripture, under the heading of 'Word of God', with the response 'This is the word of the Lord'.
Hang on, I'm welling up with crocodile tears...
Dave
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
Well, to be honest I don't go big guns on prayers for the dead or prayers to Mary myself.
Though I don't think evangelicals would have any difficulty with the "by your incarnation and baptism" line. The cross is central, but it is not seen as central to the exclusion of all else, even by someone like John Stott.
And in any event it just mirrors the old Prayer Book Litany:
quote:
By the mystery of thy holy Incarnation; by thy holy Nativity and Circumcision; by thy Baptism, Fasting, and Temptation,
Good Lord, deliver us.
Though it shouldn't be forgotten that the Litany immediately follows this with:
quote:
By thine Agony and Bloody Sweat; by thy Cross and Passion; by thy precious Death and Burial; by thy glorious Resurrection and Ascension, and by the Coming of the Holy Ghost,
Good Lord, deliver us.
Finally, if prayers for the dead and prayers to Mary are being presented now as having "official" approval from the Church of England, but without any approval being given by Synod, then evangelicals have a legitimate gripe, even if you happen to disagree with them.
The problem with supporting back-door changes to the Church of England's teachings and practices is that this can end up cutting both ways. One day it may be something you disapprove of that's being introduced the same way.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right: there is quite a lot in there that would offend protestant sensibilities. Not least of all if you also follow the CW lectionary with large chunks of the apocryphal and deutero-canonical books read as scripture, under the heading of 'Word of God', with the response 'This is the word of the Lord'.
From an Anglican point of view, they have not got a leg to stand on with regard to the use of the deuterocanonical books in the lectionary. The CW lectionary always appoints an alternative to a reading from the deuterocanonical books which is a move away from the BCP lectionaries which have no alternative to them when they are set. The 39 articles say that they are to be read `for instruction in life and manners'. Admittedly, the BCP specifies `Here endeth the lesson' as the thing to be said after the lesson rather than `This is the Word of the Lord' but I suspect that CW:DP only says `the reader may say'. I've not see the definitive edition and being in the English Fac Library I don't have access even to the preliminary edition* as mine is at home.
Carys
*We do have various prayer books but 1662 is the last I think. We also have a copy of Hymns and Psalms.
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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CW:DP just has the following:
quote:
Scripture Reading
One or more readings appointed for the day are read.
The reading(s) may be followed by a time of silence.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
CW:DP just has the following:
quote:
Scripture Reading
One or more readings appointed for the day are read.
The reading(s) may be followed by a time of silence.
Which is a sub-section of 'The Word of God'.
Dave
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Clerestory
The middle of the C of E
# 721
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
'That all who with Christ have entered the shadow of death may rest in peace and rise in glory, let us pray to the Lord'
I could see evangelicals having an (invalid, of course!) objection to that.
Evangelicals believe that those who have died 'with Christ' will indeed rest in peace and rise in glory. So this prayer is just asking God to do something we believe he's promised to do. Which is no more controversial than saying 'thy kingdom come.'
Notice that it's not asking God to give non-Christians a second chance. And it's not asking God to speed people through purgatory. So this prayer doesn't assume a non-evangelical theology.
Tom Wright has written in support of this kind of prayer. The only people I know who would be annoyed by it would never open a book of liturgy anyway.
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Clerestory
The middle of the C of E
# 721
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode, on the positioning of optional readings from the Apocrypha:
Which is a sub-section of 'The Word of God'.
Yes, but don't forget that sermons in Common Worship services also always come in the section called 'The Word of God'. Putting something in the 'Word of God' section doesn't mean that you are thereby declaring that it should have been included in the NIV. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
I still maintain that this Common Worship Daily Prayer is a cleverly-devised masterpiece of evangelical-catholic cooperation.
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
Tom Wright has also said that "the sort of hymn you are likely to find sung at All Souls' commemorations these days is probably a piece of woolly Victoriana, hinting at purgatory without really coming out and saying it - which is what the entire commemoration, in its current Anglican mode, does at every point."
He went on to say that, "After attending several of these annual events, I got to the point a few years ago where I decided that, in conscience, I could do so no longer."
It looks like what CW is doing is to continue the long practice (from at least the ASB) of "creative ambiguity" concerning prayers for the dead - evangelicals (believing that "the tree lies where it falls") can read them as a prayer that the tree will fall in the right place, while catholics can read them as prayers for those in purgatory.
I suppose we shouldn't let this turn too much into a prayers-for-the-dead thread, but FWIW my own view is similar to that of Luther:
quote:
As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: ‘Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.’ And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice.
That has been my own recent practice, and on that basis I personally have no major problem with most of the relevant texts in CCP or CW.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
John H wrote:
quote:
Finally, if prayers for the dead and prayers to Mary are being presented now as having "official" approval from the Church of England, but without any approval being given by Synod, then evangelicals have a legitimate gripe, even if you happen to disagree with them.
But, unless I've misunderstood, each church and minister would be able to make up their own mind about which prayers / readings they used and which ones they didn't. (And CW and related books are designed to be suitable for Anglican churches from the highest to the lowest is it not?)
I can't see prayers for the dead or prayers involving Mary being used at my previous Anglican church, but I could see them being used at one of the Anglican churches I occassionally fetch up at now.
Am still slightly confused about which one to buy for private devotions though.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
quote:
Am still slightly confused about which one to buy for private devotions though.
My own view is - if you're going to be using it at home, get CW:DP. If you're going to be using it on the train, get the CCP Pocket Version (the new, 2002 edition with CW texts). "But above all... HAVE FUN!!!"
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
I've updated the psalter schema, expanding a few bits, and correcting several mistakes. If anyone's using it, please get the latest from:
My CUS web site
Dave
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clerestory:
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode, on the positioning of optional readings from the Apocrypha:
Which is a sub-section of 'The Word of God'.
Yes, but don't forget that sermons in Common Worship services also always come in the section called 'The Word of God'. Putting something in the 'Word of God' section doesn't mean that you are thereby declaring that it should have been included in the NIV.
Not quite the case. The sermon is in the section 'The Liturgy of the Word' in CW, along with the readings. In CWDP, the readings are, along with the psalms, in the section 'The Word of God'. That's not the same thing.
quote:
I still maintain that this Common Worship Daily Prayer is a cleverly-devised masterpiece of evangelical-catholic cooperation.
It is a masterpiece in this respect, as well as most others. There's something in there for everyone. Marvellous book.
Dave
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Clerestory
The middle of the C of E
# 721
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Not quite the case. The sermon is in the section 'The Liturgy of the Word' in CW, along with the readings. In CWDP, the readings are, along with the psalms, in the section 'The Word of God'. That's not the same thing.
So it is! I hadn't registered that distinction. That's certainly true for most CW services, including Holy Communion. But the main CW volume's orders for Morning and Evening Prayer on Sunday do have a section called 'The Word of God'. And when this is the principal service, 'The Word of God' has to include a sermon and a creed.
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clerestory:
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Not quite the case. The sermon is in the section 'The Liturgy of the Word' in CW, along with the readings. In CWDP, the readings are, along with the psalms, in the section 'The Word of God'. That's not the same thing.
So it is! I hadn't registered that distinction. That's certainly true for most CW services, including Holy Communion. But the main CW volume's orders for Morning and Evening Prayer on Sunday do have a section called 'The Word of God'. And when this is the principal service, 'The Word of God' has to include a sermon and a creed.
There's some ambiguity here that I hadn't noticed before. If you look in the main CW volume, at the structure of a 'Service of the Word' on p24, the section is clearly marked as 'The Liturgy of the Word', yet on p33 the section is clearly marked as 'The Word of God', and includes, as you say, a sermon and a creed. 'Ow queer.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Dave
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
I wonder if we're not all labouring this point a touch.
The Church of England's official teaching (39 Articles) on the Apocrypha is that it is useful for the church to read the Apocryphal books, but that they are not to be accounted canonical.
The CW heading, "Word of God" is just that: a heading. It says, "This section of the liturgy is concerned with the Word of God", and that covers our singing the Word, listening to it read, hearing it preached and then, in the Creed, confessing our faith in that Word that we have just had proclaimed to us.
One reason the church has always read the Apocrypha is because those writings help illuminate the canonical writings for us. So it is not at all inappropriate to include readings from the Apocrypha in the context of a section of the service broadly devoted to the Word of God.
It does suggest, however, that *only* having readings from the Apocrypha in any given service *would* be a problem.
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John H:
I wonder if we're not all labouring this point a touch.
Look at my signature line: labouring the point is what I do!
quote:
It does suggest, however, that *only* having readings from the Apocrypha in any given service *would* be a problem.
As Carys noted earlier, there's always an alternative for those whose constitution is too delicate for deutero-canonical or apocryphal scriptures.
Dave
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
I don't like to see this thread sink to the bottom.
Has anyone procured a copy of the new Benedictine Daily Prayer?
I have, and I've been praying it regularly (in between praying the office as excellently laid out by David Goode).
David's office has the advantage of covering the entire psalter. The BDP has its convenient one-book format going for it.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I have recently been given this, which is a great aid to praying the office. Absolutely marvellous.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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