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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily offices
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
One thing George Guiver mentions in his Company of Voices regarding ways for groups to pray a daily office is a psalm-recitation technique I never thought of until I encountered it at 4am Matins in a Benedictine abbey: simply one person reading out the psalm as everyone else listens. I found this most moving (perhaps due to the early hour and the atmosphere of darkness and silence...each monk took a turn reading a psalm, turning on the reading-lamp in his stall before reading and off after reading and returning to the silence).
The simple celebration in Celebrating Common Prayer encourages individuals to play roles that cover the variable bits, so the group as a whole can pray using just a card with the group bits:
EVENING
[Opening dialogue with leader and group]
Psalm and Canticle, read by the psalm reader and canticle reader, respectively, as all listen; group adds Gloria Patri at end of each
Reading from Scripture, read by lector
Hymn or canticle (Magnificat, probably)
Prayers with a group refrain
Lord's Prayer
Closing Versicle
With lots of silence, and time for intercession, I'd find this a good order for group prayer. Our parish does BCP + Angelus, which is traditional and good, but can be quite "talky" with not much silence.
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David Goode
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# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
One thing George Guiver mentions in his Company of Voices regarding ways for groups to pray a daily office is a psalm-recitation technique I never thought of until I encountered it at 4am Matins in a Benedictine abbey: simply one person reading out the psalm as everyone else listens.
That all sounds excellent. Liturgical silence is good, if it's done well. I think we could all do with more of it, well done.
One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45 to do Angelus, and Vigils and Lauds, at a leisurely pace. Keeps me going, really.
Dave
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45 to do Angelus, and Vigils and Lauds, at a leisurely pace. Keeps me going, really.
Benedictine Daily Prayer, right?
Which I like, but the publisher or author should really do a Web page with a guide on it.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45
You're a very unusual chappie, Dave!
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Divine Office
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# 10558
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Posted
From perusal of their website, I believe that the psalm-recitation method described above was also used by the Anglican Cistercian community at Ewell Monastery, which has now sadly disbanded.
DIVINE OFFICE
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David Goode
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# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45
You're a very unusual chappie, Dave!
That's by no means my most unusual trait.
Dave
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David Goode
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# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
One of the things I really appreciate in life is getting up at 05h45 to do Angelus, and Vigils and Lauds, at a leisurely pace. Keeps me going, really.
Benedictine Daily Prayer, right?
Which I like, but the publisher or author should really do a Web page with a guide on it.
Yes. I suppose I could knock something together.
I think some of the rubrics are just plain wrong, such as 'From the Common of...' on memoria, even optional ones. It really ought to be everything from the ferial psalter except for feasts and above, with a few exceptions. For example...
Dave
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Those are the things LotH expects us to do, too. I don't think so! You'd never see the ferial psalter.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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David Goode
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# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Those are the things LotH expects us to do, too. I don't think so! You'd never see the ferial psalter.
You're right: it's a crap rubric, and should be treated with contempt.
Dave
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Clavus
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# 9427
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Posted
I don't know about Benedictine Daily Prayer, but I suspect it's the same as in the LoH: 'From the Common...' on memorials (optional or not) refers to permissive use of the hymn, short reading, antiphons at the Benedictus and Magnificat, and intercessions, but NOT the psalms, from the relevant Common. On memorials the psalms with their antiphons are taken from the current ferial day, unless there are propoer antiphons or psalms, as will be indicated in each case (for example, S Martin of Tours, 11 November).
See the Introduction, Various Celebrations in the Course of the Year, c How the Offfice is arranged on Memorials of Saints.
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
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Posted
Oh My Gosh,
A thread just for Me!!! How exciting. I have recently started trying to use the morning and evening prayer from the divine office but am finding it tricky to get the hang of. I really love it as a prayer/bible reading thing and it works for me so much better than the old guilt ridden quiet time thing did but it is loaded with prior knowledge and jargon ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I am using Morning and Evening Prayer, the RC brevary with the four week psalter.
Anyway just to start with I have a couple of questions.
1. What week are we in right now? (I keep getting discouraged and lost)
2.what is the diffirence between the Liturgy of the Hours , and the Office of Readings.
3. Does the office of readings take you through the whole bible? in a year?
4. When do I change from Ordinary time to Advent?
Thanks guys
Dee
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
(Disclaimer: I use "Christian Prayer", which is a slightly simplified version)
quote:
Originally posted by Dee-nz:
1. What week are we in right now? (I keep getting discouraged and lost)
2.
quote:
2.what is the diffirence between the Liturgy of the Hours , and the Office of Readings.
OOR is one of the Liturgies of the Hours, the others being Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer and Night Prayer.
quote:
3. Does the office of readings take you through the whole bible? in a year?
Not sure, I only do MP and EP. I think it takes two years, though.
quote:
4. When do I change from Ordinary time to Advent?
This Saturday, you should Evening Prayer I for Advent I. On Monday, you should use the psalter for the first week of Advent.
St. Joseph's publish a yearly guide which tells you which page numbers to use which days, which is very useful.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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DitzySpike
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The St Helena Breviary is coming out. It is a revision of 'A Monastic Breviary' from the Order of the Holy Cross, with expansive language and a wider inclusion of canticles (including those in 'Enriching our Worship'). Looks promising. A Monastic Breviary has an excellent 2 week psalm schema.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The St Helena Breviary is coming out. It is a revision of 'A Monastic Breviary' from the Order of the Holy Cross, with expansive language and a wider inclusion of canticles (including those in 'Enriching our Worship'). Looks promising. A Monastic Breviary has an excellent 2 week psalm schema.
Oh, thank God...I've been eagerly awaiting this, and I've purchased the St. Helena Psalter. Thanks for the brilliant news...makes my Monday! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The St Helena Breviary is coming out. It is a revision of 'A Monastic Breviary' from the Order of the Holy Cross, with expansive language and a wider inclusion of canticles (including those in 'Enriching our Worship'). Looks promising. A Monastic Breviary has an excellent 2 week psalm schema.
My order's in the mail to Vails Gate (one of the OSH monasteries) for the "monastic edition" of their new breviary ($80). I see that Amazon is already listing a paperback "personal edition" that is set to be published next May at $60 (but discounted to something like $40 by Amazon).
Now I'm in that weird zone again where I cannot fully enjoy life until my anticipation of a new breviary's arrival is fulfilled.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
Whenever I post to this thread (and most others, it seems), it's guaranteed to start a swift drop to the bottom. Sorry about this, and I'm trying to find a way to stop killing threads. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
Noticed that the amazon paperpack will be published by Church Publishing. Wonder if there's any intention for that to succeed Galley's Prayer Book Office. Maybe it will do to ECUSA what CCP did for the CofE.
How's the St Helena Psalter?
I'm quite getting used to the inclusive Grail psalms. Come think of it, it helps me get a larger sense of the poetry in its versification. Coverdale and the other prayer book versions now feel very narrowly restrictive in its parallelism.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Noticed that the amazon paperpack will be published by Church Publishing. Wonder if there's any intention for that to succeed Galley's Prayer Book Office. Maybe it will do to ECUSA what CCP did for the CofE.
How's the St Helena Psalter?
I'm quite getting used to the inclusive Grail psalms. Come think of it, it helps me get a larger sense of the poetry in its versification. Coverdale and the other prayer book versions now feel very narrowly restrictive in its parallelism.
The St Helena Psalter is unfailingly inclusive but stays in the style of the 1979 BCP psalter, with verses divided in two halves by an asterisk, as opposed to the Grail strophic style. The St Helena is on a par with the Psalter for the Christian People and is, I suppose, an alternative to that. My only tiny quibble with the St Helena is that it's bound too tightly...a little hardcover that won't stay open, even after lots of massaging to soften the binding. Very durable, though! It wears out my thumb if I try to hold it open with one hand. Perhaps the breviary will have the psalter in an easier binding.
As for the inclusive Grail, I first encountered it on a retreat at St Gregory's Abbey in Michigan, and the abbot spent a half-hour with me acquainting me with their chant tones and with the inclusive Grail, which he described as having seemed to be edited with a certain "percentage of inclusive content" in mind, perhaps 85 percent or so.
I'm headed to Saint Meinrad Archabbey on Friday for a weekend oblates' retreat; I'll be interested to see whether they're still using the "old" Grail or have adopted a newer edition. I really want to borrow an office book but may not have the nerve to ask. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
Not a definitive answer, but I suspect this happened. In the ASB 1980, the phos hilarion was introduced as the opening hymn for evensong and that mirrors the Venite or Jubilate which is used for Mattins. Probably the office hymns are put in as alternatives for the phos hilarion. Mattins didn't need that, it has the invitatory.
I believe CW:DP also offer other canticles or the "blessing of light" as options as well.
I'm expecting my copy of CW:DP to arrive next week. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
While I'm waiting for my Saint Helena Breviary, I plan to explore this new online one: The Daily Office for Gay People
I didn't think I'd like it, even though it's designed for People Like Me, but I found it well done. Just some special opening sentences and collects, otherwise USA BCP 1979.
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
Scott, that's cool...I'll have to mention that in my blog.
Generally speaking I am uncomfortable with religious-compartmentalization-by-demographic -- been there, done that in regard to women's spirituality at an earlier time in my life, and I ultimately found it too exclusive and ghettoizing -- but on the other hand, every once in awhile you just want to worship with your people ![[Biased]](wink.gif) in a focused way. This would be a good resource for faith-based support groups, for retreats geared toward GLBT retreatants, etc.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Interesting idea, Scott. Has some good prayers in it (that can easily be copied out and put in my BCP), but I made the misteak of reading the Teen one, and, well... ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Hee-hee...me too! What's with "Big Dude"?
As someone who consistently refers to God (in private devotions and would never dream of doing it out loud in a worship setting!) as 'Boss', that bit didn't bother me too much. The line that made me go "40-year-old trying to sound like a teenager!" was:
quote:
But they say you're the hippest Dude of all, so feel free to send me a download anytime; I promise to answer right back.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
I thought the speaker speaks from quite a depth of experience ('figure out this crazy world'), and has gone beyond learning to categorize to include and empathize with ('and our straight ones too'). So with such maturity, it felt really a deliberate talking down to God, which I suspect, can be a powerful ways to pray God is incarnate in and as a child.
subversive...
[ 11. December 2005, 07:55: Message edited by: DitzySpike ]
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Lamburnite
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# 9516
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
While I'm waiting for my Saint Helena Breviary, I plan to explore this new online one: The Daily Office for Gay People
But I always thought that the Anglican Breviary was the Daily Office for Gay People.
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dee-nz:
1. What week are we in right now? (I keep getting discouraged and lost)
You should be able to see what the current week is if you find the bit where they have propers for the Sundays. Eg. find the proper collect for say the 17th Sunday in ordinary time, and somewhere close it should say that the 17th Week in Ordinary Time is week n.
quote:
3. Does the office of readings take you through the whole bible? in a year?
I have a feeling that the OR in conjunction with the mass lectionary takes you through the whole bible in 2 years. But I could be making that up.
I know the OR on its own definitely doesn't go through the whole bible.
quote:
4. When do I change from Ordinary time to Advent?
If working out which office to say is a hassle, try buying an Ordo.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
got my copy of Common Worship: Daily Prayer. Lots of decisions to make in selecting the texts!
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamburnite:
But I always thought that the Anglican Breviary was the Daily Office for Gay People.
Point taken. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
But this gay man, yours truly, prefers to stay in tune with his church's liturgical calendar, and the AB isn't. I do have two copies, though, and sometimes pray from it. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
But this gay man, yours truly, prefers to stay in tune with his church's liturgical calendar, and the AB isn't. I do have two copies, though, and sometimes pray from it.
Speaking of staying in tune with my church's liturgical calendar, my Saint Helena Breviary did not arrive today.
I'll be living in a weird zone, emotionally, until it does.
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I'll be living in a weird zone, emotionally, until it does. [/QB]
I'm not judging ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Does anyone know how the Common Worship: Daily Prayer - Daily Lectionary Psalm schema works?
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Boadicea Trott
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# 9621
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Posted
What is the source of the Compline prayer "Lighten our darkness, we beseech Thee..." ?
Is it from the Roman breviary, or is it seriously ancient ?
Just wondering :-)
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
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David Goode
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# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
What is the source of the Compline prayer "Lighten our darkness, we beseech Thee..." ?
Is it from the Roman breviary, or is it seriously ancient ?
Just wondering :-)
It is a prayer peculiar to the Sarum Use, which finished Compline, and that's how it made its way into the BCP. Though the collect appears in the Gregorian and Gelasian Sacramentaries, and the Leofric Missal, it doesn't seem to have formed part of the Roman Use. The English paraphrase by Cranmer differs slightly from the meaning of the Latin original.
Dvae
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
I'll be living in a weird zone, emotionally, until it does.
I'm not judging
Does anyone know how the Common Worship: Daily Prayer - Daily Lectionary Psalm schema works? [/QB]
Someone else may know (hi, David Goode!), but one of my minor quibbles with Common Worship is that the lectionary is published separately as an ordo, so it's not easy to see the big picture of the psalm scheme. This situation was probably unavoidable because of all the material that had to be in the book itself, and I suppose a flexible lectionary was wanted rather than "carving it in stone" by printing it in the book. Another minor quibble is with the very short psalm selections for the Daily Office. Perhaps I'm too monastic, but I think the psalms should be central to the office. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Boadicea Trott
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# 9621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
It is a prayer peculiar to the Sarum Use, which finished Compline, and that's how it made its way into the BCP. Though the collect appears in the Gregorian and Gelasian Sacramentaries, and the Leofric Missal, it doesn't seem to have formed part of the Roman Use. The English paraphrase by Cranmer differs slightly from the meaning of the Latin original.
Dvae
Many Thanks for this, Dave. It`s nice to know it is Sarum derived.
I wonder why it never made the Continental usage?
[fixed quote code]
[ 13. December 2005, 17:49: Message edited by: jlg ]
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
common worship has some of my favourite pieces - like the advent sequence for day prayer. i'm happy.
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David Goode
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# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Someone else may know (hi, David Goode!), but one of my minor quibbles with Common Worship is that the lectionary is published separately as an ordo, so it's not easy to see the big picture of the psalm scheme. This situation was probably unavoidable because of all the material that had to be in the book itself, and I suppose a flexible lectionary was wanted rather than "carving it in stone" by printing it in the book. Another minor quibble is with the very short psalm selections for the Daily Office. Perhaps I'm too monastic, but I think the psalms should be central to the office.
I've never worked out the rationale behind the allocation of psalms in the lectionary. I agree with you, Scott, that there are two few per hour, which is why I prefer a monastic schema.
Dave
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
In my meanderings across the Internet, I ran across this. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with it, and if it was worth the price tag (which is currently two day's net salary for me). The reason something like that appeals is because I travel a lot and shuffling Bible and BCP and Cycle of Prayer books on a v. crowded bus is not fun (dropped my BCP in a puddle last week ![[Frown]](frown.gif) ).
[stupid long URL. I kick you now!]
[ 14. December 2005, 16:22: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
In my meanderings across the Internet, I ran across this. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with it, and if it was worth the price tag (which is currently two day's net salary for me). The reason something like that appeals is because I travel a lot and shuffling Bible and BCP and Cycle of Prayer books on a v. crowded bus is not fun (dropped my BCP in a puddle last week ).
[stupid long URL. I kick you now!]
Sorry about your BCP - hope that doesn't come with too much sentimental values.
If you've got an ipod, you can download readings of Morning Prayers from Post Cast of Morning Prayer and get your morning prayers done while you are on the go.You'll then need a pocket version of the NT, or better still a gospel on its own, since evensong uses only a gospel passage.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
In my meanderings across the Internet, I ran across this. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with it, and if it was worth the price tag (which is currently two day's net salary for me). The reason something like that appeals is because I travel a lot and shuffling Bible and BCP and Cycle of Prayer books on a v. crowded bus is not fun (dropped my BCP in a puddle last week ).
I have this and have used it a lot. VERY handy size, and each volume has all you need to pray the BCP 1979 office for a year, in Rite I or Rite II language (but contempo psalter only). I got mine from the choir of my previous parish (and now I'm sad again, realizing I'm still not singing anywhere, 3 1/2 years after moving to Chicago). My only gripe about the Daily Office Book is some annoying typos in the lessons. Not many, but it's amazing there are any. Did they hand-type them?
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Scott, does it have readings for Holy Days or just amble along according to the Lectionary?
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
Scott, does it have readings for Holy Days or just amble along according to the Lectionary?
It has holy-day readings. Really everything you need to pray the office throughout the year.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep:
Scott, does it have readings for Holy Days or just amble along according to the Lectionary?
It has holy-day readings. Really everything you need to pray the office throughout the year.
For absolutely everything you need in one volume, there's the Contemporary Office Book. Modern language only, which is fine with me, but not with everybody.
Scott, still waiting by the front door for delivery of his copy of the Saint Helena Breviary.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
My local Catholic bookstore hasn't had their supply of next year's St. Joseph's guides delivered yet. I was planning on being big and grown-up and working out Christian Prayer (the 1-volume version of the LotH) on my own, but there's something I'm stuck on:
If I do Epiphany on 1/8, where should I take the psalms from 1/3-1/7? Do I use the Psalms from Christmas day like I was during the Octave of Christmas, or should I take them from the ferial psalter? If so, what week? 1?
Any help appreciated!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
If I do Epiphany on 1/8, where should I take the psalms from 1/3-1/7? Do I use the Psalms from Christmas day like I was during the Octave of Christmas, or should I take them from the ferial psalter? If so, what week? 1?
I believe you would be back into the four-week psalter at Week 2. Check this calendar.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
If I do Epiphany on 1/8, where should I take the psalms from 1/3-1/7? Do I use the Psalms from Christmas day like I was during the Octave of Christmas, or should I take them from the ferial psalter? If so, what week? 1?
Any help appreciated!
Try the useful calendar at Universalis. That link is only for 2005, but they'll put up 2006 in good time; and it's the calendar for England, but you can change that on the page (although the psalter week will be the same across calendars).
Dave
PS Sorry about the cross-post with Scott!
[ 18. December 2005, 08:39: Message edited by: David Goode ]
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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