However, once it has been determined who is responsible, we act. Decisively and without prejudice. These are the realities, people. War is ugly and brutal and necessary. Look at what happened here yesterday:

• 10,000+ civilians killed
• civilian targets
• commercial, civilian aircraft turned into weapons of mass destruction
• the world's financial market crippled in the short term, at the very least

The consequences of ten years of retaliation via ass-kissing is what we're looking at. No more. No more.

Do you ever wonder why no one screws with the Russians? It is a far cry from ideological solidarity, believe me. Back when Western citizens were being kidnapped in the Middle East, they attempted to terrorize the Russians in the same way. The only thing is, the Russians fought back. For every Russian citizen who disappeared, a known terrorist disappeared. For a little while, though. Soon enough they sent him back, in pieces, bit by bloody bit.

On a gut level I find that appalling, though theoretically I know that death is death and the means don't make that much difference. But that is how Zero Tolerance is carried out. You don't react to attacks, you go on the offensive. And people will die, no doubt some of them innocent. I keep thinking of the people on the plane that crashed in PA. They are the heroes here – they knew they would not survive, but they were prepared to die in order to save others' lives.

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Originally posted by Erin:
We simply do not know.

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The clues are coming in.

I was referring to the few hours after the news broke, I was making an observation, I was contrasting most people's behaviour with Riley's.

Even if they did, he has networks and contacts all over the world, who knows where.

Don't know if it's more tragic or ironic to think that bin Laden and friends were once allies of the west and received US training. Makes you weep at the whole mess of it all.

Under military threat, an immediate assessment needs to be made of the source of the military attack, followed by 100% elimination of its military source. Our planes are still grounded. Our citizens do not know if there are still 10 or 100 or more fanatics with plastic knives waiting to reboard planes and continue this threat. I'm supposed to fly from Dulles to Austin, Texas next Wednesday. Am I going to end up a grease spot on the Capitol building?

It would have been justified to me if yesterday, our military had come to the same conclusion as Orrin Hatch and said, "The head is most likely bin Laden, his most likely location is (x,y) in Afghanistan. I say we hit it, and promise more appropriate military, politcal, and legal action until the threat to our country is eliminated. That ought to slow them up a bit."

We have an enemy too. All of us. Terrorism is not unique to the US--how many car bombs have gone off in London and killed people? How much terrorist violence occurs all over the world? Terrorism is the Enemy, and it has many faces and lives in many countries.

Americans aren't raving lunatics who just want to bomb Afghanistan and its hungry, land-mine lamed population back into the Stone Age. We want the world to recognize that terrorism is warfare. It's directed at all of us, each an every one of us, whether we're in London, Sydney, Perth, Edinburgh, New York, Washington or Los Angeles.

I have a sister in Nebraska who was in tears last night, crying "Is it over? Is it over? Will they come here next?" I have a sister and niece in Washington DC, asking the same questions.

Thank you, Edward, for your post affirming that we are a world at war. It makes me feel that we are not standing alone at this time. And thank you, Erin, for straightening out the misunderstandings.

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Ptarmigan said:
Since no state is directly responsible for yesterday's events, there is no state for USA to declare war against.

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Ah, so you KNOW who is responsible? Have you told the FBI? Or were you just shooting off your mouth?

We don't yet know if any state is directly responsible for the monstrosities of 9/11/2001, so your statement was a little -um- misdirected?

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Erin said:
(remember NATO?).

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Ah, those folks that (quite illegally) bombed innocent civilians in Serbia in 1999? Yes, I think I remember them. I don't expect too much from them in the way of justice, though -- not until William Jefferson Clinton is brought before the Hague for war crimes.

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Calvin said:
I agree with fee, judgement is needed but it should be up to God.

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If you were in charge during 1939, we'd all be speaking German with a Nazi accent.

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As for the Pearl Harbor comparison -- this is far, far worse than Pearl Harbor. First of all, the vast majority of people killed in Pearl Harbor were military, and military in a dangerous ocean during a known war. And the number is in the low thousands.

The attacks of 9/11/2001 were primiarily (in terms of lives lost) against civilians, and the deaths promise to be well over 10,000. 45,000 people work every day in the WTC, and many more thousands come and go, delivering stuff, having away meetings, and so forth. The death toll could still be as high as 40,000 or more.

I was glad President Bush had the guts to use the word "evil." So many of the news reports were trying so hard to be non-judgmental it was vomitous (although somebody on NPR did use the word "enormity" -- incorrectly, of course). Using a plane full of innocent people as a bomb is EVIL. The people who would plot to carry out such an attack are EVIL.

Thanks for listening.

Poverty. Economic and physical isolation. Real and imagined injustices. Perception of powerlessness. And so forth.

If our only response is to smash the SOBs who masterminded this, or the country/countries that harbored them, then we will probably end up contributing to a greater escalation.

Still Falls the Rain
(The raids, 1940: night and dawn)

Still falls the Rain--
Dark as the world of man, black as our loss--
Blind as the nineteen hundred and forty nails upon the Cross

Still falls the Rain
With a sound like the pulse of the heart that is changed to the hammer beat
In the Potter's Field, and the sound of the impious feet

On the Tomb:
Still falls the Rain
In the Field of Blood where the small hopes breed and the human brain
Nurtures its greed, that worm with the brow of Cain

Still falls the Rain
At the feet of the Starved Man hung upon the Cross
Christ that each day, each night, nails there, have mercy on us--
On Dives and on Lazarus:
Under the Rain the sore and gold are as one.

Still falls the Rain--
Still falls the Blood from the Starved Man's wounded Side
He bears in His Heart all wounds,--those of the light that died,
The last faint spark
In the self-murdered heart, the wounds of the sad uncomprehending dark,
The wounds of the baited bear,--
The blind and weeping bear whom the keepers beat
On his helpless flesh...the tears of the hunted hare.

Still falls the Rain--
Then--"O Ile leape up to my God! Who pulles me doune?--
See, see where Christ's blood streames in the firmament."
It flows from the Brow we nailed upon the tree
Deep to the dying, to the thirsting heart
That holds the fires of the world,--dark-smirched with pain
As Caesar's laurel crown.

The first concerns some students at Pace University, which is close to the World Trade Centers. They spoke to the people who had escaped from the buildings, and invited them into their rooms to use their computers to send e-mail. That way their friends and relatives knew immediately that they were all right.

The other concerns shoe-store owners who stood in front of their stores giving away sneakers to anyone who had no shoes.

When we've seen such demonstrations of evil, it's really nice to be reminded how good and decent many people are.

ny public libraries will be closing at 5 (as opposed to 6 or later) for the rest of this week but hopefully back to regular schedules after that.

ABCNEWS sources identify another hijacker as Satan Suqami

How's that for an appropriate name. Overt or what?

Let's just keep praying. There's right and wrong in all our thoughts, and we simply don't know what's for the best. We need to pray for the guys making the decisions.

The argument carries even more force when it is on the scale of yesterday's tragedy, involving probably tens of thousands of deaths perpetrated by an unknown number of well-funded, well-coordinated people. While "War" is too broad a term, "terrorist attack" is far too mild. That is why I used the word "military." It is true that when a Catholic blows up a Protestant church in Ireland, it only escalates and perpetuates violence if a Protestant family member of the victim blows up a Catholic church in retaliation. But if airliners are hijacked and crashed into the Vatican and St. Pat's in New York within minutes of each other and the only way to halt it for the moment is to shut down every airport in the world, this is not the time to call an ecumenical council on Catholic/Protestant strife to ease terrorist tensions.

If we knew that the only weapon yesterday's terrorists have at their disposal are our commercial airliners, we could assume that we have put them out of business and take a "go slow" response while we live without any commercial air traffic for the months it would take to find, try, and punish the people in question via normal legal means. But they could well have enough money and organization to have other weapons of mass destruction at their disposal.

Saying I've forfeited the debate seems quite cowardly. Is that inflammatory?

Someone doesn't like being disagreed with.

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while the usa can't declare war on a person/group per se, if a country is shielding them, then it can be assumed that the country is in agreement with them about their actions, and i'm guessing war could be declared on them.

some one asked if outside usa help was coming in - the raf (british airforce) have sent help in to do search and rescue, and the other squadrons are on delta alert (level below actual war). my friend's son is in the raf, and we spoke to him earlier. from his evasive responses etc, it is certain that he knows a lot more than he is telling. all he did say about the possibility of war is that he would phone if they have to go. and not to worry, he would be safe. *shrug* trying not to read anything into it - i know lee, and i know his mates, and i don't want them to die.

i'm praying for people who have lost friends and relatives. and i'm praying for bush and his advisers, that they can figure out what the right and godly thing to do is, that they would listen to god on this one....

Retaliation (as opposed to prevention) is a somewhat primitive instinct, and - in my understanding of christianity - not an acceptable motive. (Can anyone tell us how Jews handle the "eye for an eye" principle, since they do not have Jesus' turning this on its head in the NT?)

Christian "just war" theory requires (amongst other things) the minimum force necessary. In the case of the gunman in the public square, for instance, a shot to disable rather than to kill would be more acceptable.

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I wasn't comparing anybody to the Nazi's, so Godwin's law doesn't apply.

Alex

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Reread the law, hon, you only have to INVOKE the Nazis. I'll even quote it here:

quote:

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As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

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quote:

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Retaliation (as opposed to prevention) is a somewhat primitive instinct, and - in my understanding of christianity - not an acceptable motive. (Can anyone tell us how Jews handle the "eye for an eye" principle, since they do not have Jesus' turning this on its head in the NT?)

Christian "just war" theory requires (amongst other things) the minimum force necessary. In the case of the gunman in the public square, for instance, a shot to disable rather than to kill would be more acceptable.

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Any pacifist risks being called an appeaser. If they don't like that, maybe they shouldn't be pacifists. Because there is no way to have unilateral pacifism without appeasement.

Somebody said that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If this is what pacifists would have us do (other than wag our fingers vigorously), then they are part of the problem and not the solution.

Allied involvement in WW2 saved millions of lives -- if only of Jews and Gypsies (and other "unwanted" types) who missed a date with the ovens. Tell THEM that pacifism always and everywhere the thing to do.

Do I have a problem with absolutist pacifism? You bet. Will I invoke the memory of WW2? You bet.

And Godwin can stick his law up his fat ass.

Saying that any and all comparisons to WW2 are always and everywhere off limits, as Godwin's law does (by ridicule), is (1) an unwarranted attack on the free dissemination of ideas, and (2) stupid.

quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
Pssssst... perhaps you missed this, but the US government is officially secular. It is not beholden to any religion's principles.

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The question I'm addressing is what the US should do, and what I, as a christian, hope it will do.

Bush uses God talk when it suits him, and I'm sure he means the crhistian God. The US sing "God Bless America". US dollars say "In God we trust". Secular in US seems mystifying to me as an Englishman. Is there an explanation?

quote:

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Originally posted by ptarmigan:
If the reason for "war" is to prevent this happening again, (rather than to relieve people's justifiable feelings of anger), then wouldn't security improvements be a more humane method than acts of warfare which inevitably kill innocent civilians?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ptarmigan:
The question I'm addressing is what the US should do, and what I, as a christian, hope it will do.

Bush uses God talk when it suits him, and I'm sure he means the crhistian God. The US sing "God Bless America". US dollars say "In God we trust". Secular in US seems mystifying to me as an Englishman. Is there an explanation?

Pt

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After the attack on the Pentagon my university was closed. I ended up walking back into the city to avoid traffic and any possible roadblocks. Indeed, all inbound routes were blocked and the government and most retail establishments closed throughout the day. It was eery walking across Key Bridge and watching the plumes of grey and black smoke rise from the buring Pentagon. Military helicopters flew low over the Potomac. Normally bustling Georgetown was quiet -- there was no traffic in the streets but many people walking, singly or in small groups, towards their homes. People were gathering together and through the open windows one could hear the unmistakable drone of newsreaders as countless residents listened intently to the news bulletins.

Phone lines into and out of DC were disrupted for some hours in the morning and early afternoon, and people (including me) were walking to check in with neighbours and friends, and to sit in company and take in the grotesque and awesome news of the these tragedies.

Churches held prayer services for the nation, requiem masses and eucharists. 4000 people thronged the National Cathedral. Fighter planes and attack helicopters regularly flew low over the city.

Today many schools and universities remain closed, but workers returned the Pentagon and the fires have finally been extinguished there. Casualty estimates have been re-evaluated and (thankfully) diminished from a high estimate of over 800 to nearer 100 expected dead.

The city is calm, but still surreal scenes greet the pedestrian. Policemen and soldiers are stationed throughout the city. Armed patrols guard embassies and significant federal buidlings. Policeman stand at major intersections and round-a-bouts.

And the work of prayer continues. Requiems are being said today, as well as prayers of repentence, thanks for lives saved, and fervent supplications for peace.

This is the work we are called to do.

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Minutes before the giant airliner smashed into a field southeast of Pittsburgh, passenger Jeremy Glick used a cell phone to call his wife at home in New Jersey and told her that he and several other people on board had come up with a plan to resist the terrorists who had hijacked the plane, according to Glick's brother-in-law, Douglas B. Hurwitt...

Anticipating his own death, Glick, who celebrated his 31st birthday on Sept. 3, told his wife, Lyzbeth, that he hoped she would have a good life and would take care of their three-month old baby girl, Hurwitt said.

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I agree that whoever was behind these atrocities has to be stopped. I just wish there was another way. I can't think of any useful alternative. It's terrifying.

Do you guys remeber during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait a shelter containing lots of civilians - mostly old or very young - was hit by a NATO bomb. Nato had been informed that the place was an intelligence headquarters. War is complicated and unpredictable and can never be expected to kill the "right" people.

But what else is there?

Lord have mercy.

<Trying not to cry.>

Erin, every time I think of that call, I start sobbing. Along with the guy who called his Mom to say he loved her and that he was sure they were all going to die, but they were going to try to do something about it.

I am with those who think that military action of some kind is going to be necessary (in fact, at the moment, I'm much too mad to be interested in prayer). It is our obligation to do what we can to end the terrorists' grip on the world. This is the new "war" for our generation, and it's been going 100-0 in favor of the terrorists for a long time. I'm not sure what will be called for, but it is critical that we not let countries like Afghanistan and Syria harbor these guys and wink at them while claiming their innocence to the world. I know there are innocent people there, but there are innpcent people everywhere. We cannot allow ourselves by fear of hurting anyone to fail to respond. We've done the ineffective for far too long.

Oh, goody. The Senate just passed a resolution condemning the attack 100 to nothing. There's a shock! Do you think they had to twist many arms for unanimity?

[edited to add forgotten content]

You are scum and a traitor. I hope they find you and throw your sorry ass into Leavenworth for the rest of your life. Which, given that that's a military prison, will be mercifully short.

And equally bad words for the ghouls who are trying to sell debris from the disaster on eBay. Thank goodness eBay is pulling this stuff off the auction block.

But there are some kudos to hand out, too --

To the guys in the ironworkers union in NY, members of which built the WTC, who are dismantling the debris by hand in case people are still alive underneath.

To the postal service people, who are just putting everything on trucks since the planes are all grounded.

To the blood donors. I haven't been able to get through to the Red Cross yet since the lines are all jammed. A friend of mine got through, and was told to wait a couple of days -- they have all the blood they can deal with for the moment, but they'll need more soon.

To the people like Edward James Olmos and LA Episcopal Bishop Suffragan Chet Talton and Arab Jews here (I didn't know we had Arab Jews!) who went to Islamic centers and urged others not to persecute Arab Americans. Maybe we've actually learned something since the internment of Japanese Americans in WW2 and the victimization of Arab Americans after the OK City bombing.

God help us all.

RE God talk in the US: Part if is that while while the government is officially secular, the country and our politics have long been influenced by Christians and Christianity and many, if not most, in the US have no problem with such influences as long as they are kept general (could be read "shallow"), don't mention differences in doctrine but do make vague appeals to "higher power" and refer to individuals' right to see (or cast) 'God' in what ever way the individual sees fit.

I think the coins, et cet. are a semi-sacred relic of times past when Christians so dominated US society and government that few if any objected to such slogans.

I think Bush is nominally Christian with perhaps a small amount of faith. US Attorney John Ashcroft is quite Christian, of some-what old fashioned bent.