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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: It's not my fault I'm fat and broke!
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
There's Slimfast. But that's an abomination against nature. I can't think of anything else.
There's a product available in NZ with the same name that has bzp (which is used in party pills and I believe started life as an animal remedy) as its active ingredient.
There is also an organisation called "Slimfast" that uses blood tests to prescribe a diet for each person to follow. Customers have ongoing appointments with a "weightloss counsellor" for a weigh-in and advice on weightloss. It costs $880.
Goodness. I don't think ours is like either of those, it's just a meal replacement thing. You're supposed to have 2 milkshakes or bars, and one proper meal of food, a day. The milkshakes taste manky, or did back when I did it. Goodness knowns what sort of rubbish is in them. And, as Papio says, a very expensive way to not lose any weight.
Are party pills like speed? I think that diet products with amphetamine or amphetamine-like substances are illegal here, though you can get 'herbal' diet supplements that hint at a speed-type effect. I never tried those, but a friend did - they didn't seem to have any noticable effect. The same friend and I also tried large daily doses of caffeine tablets on the grounds that they ought to speed up our metabolism and burn fat. That didn't work, either.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Lurker Person:
I added and recalculated calories many times a day, trying to decide whether I could allow myself a banana (105 calories) or whether I should restrict myself to half a white grapefruit (37 calories).
It was a horrible way to live.
I recognise what you are describing, I've gone through periods of obsessing like that. It is horrible. For me the focus on counting was always a way of avoiding other things, and feeling in control of at least one thing. I can only be thankful that for me those phases passed (by themselves, through no virtue on my part).
Thank you for your contribution on this thread, by the way.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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ananke
Shipmate
# 10059
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Posted
As far as exercise goes though, that's a place people really need to back off from judgement.
Example: for SIX years I had a tumour in my knee that made all walking painful. It made swimming painful. It took a dedicated osteopath to go beyond 'lose weight fatty'. Not one of the doctors, specialists or well-meaning bystanders stopped to think that since movement was painful, exercise wasn't helping.
So now I've got no cartilage in one knee, which has effectively made walking just as painful (although I at least have a kneecap so that's a blessing). So again exercise isn't the best option for me. I still go and do weight training, and as much cardio as possible but commentary like "a ten minute walk won't hurt you" is a crock. I'm not about to go through me medical history every time someone says it, but no matter how clear I make it, every weightloss 'advisor' thinks they know better than me about what works with my body.
As it is I'm happy with my body. Yes my left leg is a mass of scar tissue and pain, but I can still walk (mostly) and I've cleared up a lot of my other problems.
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...and I bear witness, this grace, this prayer so long forgotten.
A Perfect Circle - Magdalena
Posts: 617 | From: australia | Registered: Aug 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Exercise is an challenge often. I have bad knees - not as bad as yours ananke, but still sometimes sore, particularly when I do a lot of walking. Walking is the form of exercise that I find easiest, and do a reasonable amount. However, if I walk more, my knees start to ache - not least, of course, because I am overweight. So I have to weigh up the benefits of walking ( in fact most exercise involves the knees, so it doesn't really matter ) as exercise against the fact that too much of it may cripple me later in life.
ALP - the calorie counting thing sounds awful. And, IMO, it is a denial of us being ourselves. We should be happy with our bodies and ourselves as we are, if nothing else because loving our bodies is probably the best motivation to making some weight reduction when possible.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ananke:
As far as exercise goes though, that's a place people really need to back off from judgement.
That's true. I am grateful that, as I bumble through middle age, I continue to enjoy, and be capable of, intense exercise. Many people are not so fortunate.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
We should be happy with our bodies and ourselves as we are, if nothing else because loving our bodies is probably the best motivation to making some weight reduction when possible.
Actually, I am thinking loving food is probably the road to health and happiness.
Owing to a slight domestic crisis, I did not pack a lunch today, but instead picked up a prawn mayo sandwich and some fruit at Tescos. I didn't realise it was Specially Low Fat. It was vile. I have just eaten 2 chocolate hobnobs to obliterate the taste - and now realise they reason they don't taste nice either is the chocolate is so far from the 50%+ organic dark that I love.
Moral: A little of what you fancy does you good, and a lot of what you don't doesn't.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Firenze, you get my first ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) for that. I very very regularly try to convince people that many people's food problems (and I dont' just mean weight either) would be solved by better listening to their bodies. Certainly not everyone is able to follow the advice of their bodies and that wouldn't solve everyone's problems. However, I have had a few food issues myself and solved them by realizing that if I was craving cottage cheese, steak, hamburger and chese that maybe I needed to add more protein into my life. (At the time I was living with vegetarians but I didn't like tofu--needed to get over being a pickypicky or move.)
Similarly, I lost five pounds (wasn't really overweight, just not fit) by simply not eating when I wasn't hungry! Now obviously that won't work for everyone but it took me so long to realize I could just skip meals if I wasn't hungry etc.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
There's an interesting article in Slate today on the topic of obesity that includes some interesting additional causes for its increase in recent years. You may find the article here . FWIW
--Tom Clune
[ 13. July 2006, 18:29: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Lurker Person:
I added and recalculated calories many times a day, trying to decide whether I could allow myself a banana (105 calories) or whether I should restrict myself to half a white grapefruit (37 calories).
It was a horrible way to live.
I recognise what you are describing, I've gone through periods of obsessing like that. It is horrible. For me the focus on counting was always a way of avoiding other things, and feeling in control of at least one thing. I can only be thankful that for me those phases passed (by themselves, through no virtue on my part).
Thank you for your contribution on this thread, by the way.
I think that calorie counting and "point counting" are bad. It's obsessing about food and making the whole idea of eating a bad experience.
At school I did the calorie counting thing. I limited myself to about 1000 calories a day. I got very skinny. I was starving. I binged. I got fat. I went back to 1000 calories a day. When I ate more than 1000 calories a day, I felt like a cheat and a loser.
Years later, after a couple of kids, I went to Weight Watchers and got handed the points and calories booklets and listened to the "leader" or whatever the heck she was go on and on about how important it was to check each day that your points target wasn't exceeded and to her "confession" about how she'd eaten a piece of cake that day and that was her entire points allowance taken up with just one snack.
It was insane. I told her that she sounded like obsessive teenager me and asked for my money back. She looked at me like I was nuts and gave it back with a "we don't want anyone who's obsessive here".
That's the whole problem with dieting and diets, including Weight Watchers. They make the person doing them think way too much about what goes in and makes them hate food.
WW and the rest would be far better to teach people to understand food (which sounds pompous, but I can't think of a better way to say it) and, as Firenze says, to love food. But by love, I mean a sort of respectful, loving thing. Not spending all day each day together. Appreciation, rather than love, perhaps.
And they'd be far better teaching people how to cook really good food. So many people can't and it's not a skill you can just pick up from looking at a book.
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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
as Firenze says, to love food. But by love, I mean a sort of respectful, loving thing. Not spending all day each day together. Appreciation, rather than love, perhaps.
You could see this spinning off into a Food Dating Thread, where you hope to meet, if not the Meal of Your Dreams, at least a decent, nutritious type. This week's homework: eat an eclair.
Seriously though, there are these two strands - the hedonistic, Slow Food, Nigel Slater-y approach, all redolent of long lunches in sun-dappled gardens with good friends and good wine. And the punitive, flesh-denying, self-subjugating that seems to be about being looked upon, desired, successful, triumphant over time and age and decay.
Are these not the defacto religions of our time? The worship of either Dionysus or Apollo?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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imagin8or
Shipmate
# 2991
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Posted
I won't pretend to have read more than this page of replies, because it's 10 pages long. However, I have a story of my own which might be useful to some.
I myself was over 17 stone* at the end of my degree. I'm tall, but that was still not healthy at all - 40 inch waist. Part of me wanted people to not judge me because of my weight, but at the same time it was my own fault for overeating and not looking after my body.
Approximately 9 months later I was 13 stone, and am now (2 years later) 13 stone 8. So the weight came off, and has now stayed off. Sure, I'm not quite as light as a was then, but that naturally varies, and I'm actively trying to get rid of my belly.
How did it happen, you're asking? What's the secret? It was Atkins, wasn't it? Or was it the GI thing?
No.
It was not Atkins, GI or Weightwatchers. I did not add up points, buy low-fat everything or become obsessed. And no, I neither hated food nor vomited it up.
I did two things. I started eating healthily, and started exercising. Standard, old-school, I've-been-taught-this-since-I-was-5 balanced diet. And exercise.
The first stage was to gain control of my eating habits and learn that I did not need or want to eat such an incredible amount of food. So for the first couple of months I only ate at work. I am a lodger, so I just had nothing in my fridge or cupboard. Fruit, yes. Veg, yes. Nothing else. Then I could happily eat my cereal breakfast with semi-skimmed milk, and a normal meal at lunch time, and that was it. Other nibbling was only cucumbers with Marmite, or other fruit and veg.
The second thing was to cut out processed foods. I'm not saying nothing ever passed my lips, but I stopped eating chocolate. Yes, it's addictive, but yes, you can still survive without it. Who is in control of your life, you or Cadburys? Also to go were cakes, biscuits, crisps, etc - complex sugar, carb and fat products. All those things are only for when you are a able to balance your diet. If you are still learning, as I was, just don't eat them. I used to always turn to the cupboard with those items in in my parents house, automatically. When I returned home after a month or two of not eating them, I automatically opened the cupboard, and then I looked at the contents. I didn't really want anything there, I was just bored. So I closed the cupboard.
I switched to simple food. Ham sandwiches, salads (with no mayo), avoiding anything whose main constituent is fat. No microwave meals, no wierd sauces, running a mile from things that are packaged, plastic-wrapped and processed. You want to be able to see what you are eating and know why you want to eat it. This ham sandwich I made contains some good, lean ham, some low-fat spread, some bread and some fresh salad. That's protein, fat, carbs, vitamins.
And I started exercising. I was scared into going to ballroom dancing lessons by the thought of a formal event at church with two left feet. At ballroom I found a great community of people, discovered a social life and joined in. Dancing grew from one day a week to three or four. It's very hard work, and good cardio, particularly Jive which I'm rubbish at but adore. I had a rowing machine from a previous attempt at being fit, and started to use it properly - 15 minutes at 30rpm, then 2 sets of that with a break, then 3.
This wasn't possible without God. I had tried to lose weight before, but it hadn't worked. But God put me in a position with a job a train ride and 50 minutes of walking away, and helped me to be strong. With his help I could get through the evenings of hunger, refusing to go to the shop (I am lazier than I am a glutton). With his help and his motivation I could pull for 15 minutes on the rowing machine, at least 5 of those through determination and focussing on God.
So what is my point in all this? I think it's to be serious and work with God. Don't just eat lo-fat things. Don't just do a bit more exercise. Don't just pray for help. Being healthy means being active in whatever ways are available to you - if you have injuries, to work around them; eating healthily to give your body what it needs and not what it doesn't; taking care of your mind, that you don't obsess or hate yourself.
Being overweight is not ok. It's a health risk. It's a mind risk. It's a spiritual risk. You are still a person though, you are worth no less because of the extra material around you. Don't fall into either of the pits - feeling worthless because of your weight, or feeling that being fat is ok. You are ok, but your weight is not. So take ownership, take charge of it. Live as a child of God, not a slave to consumption and image. You are more important and worth far more than the magazines will tell you, more than people will think you're worth, and far more than you know yourself. So honour the God that made you worth so much by taking care of the body you have; you are worth too much to have all the problems of being too fat. You and God together can make it.
If you want a simple diet plan, from someone who has been there but is in no way qualified, then here it is: be healthy. Lose everything that is a sugar-fat combo, and don't replace it with lo-fat, lo-carb lo-taste versions. Just lose it and eat a banana instead. Go back to the idea of living healthily. The best diet is a balanced one, because it's a diet for life. And exercise. Push yourself. Focus on God, don't give up on your targets. The point is health, so don't do what will injure you, or work anything that hurts.
So here is your challenge. You've clearly got stamina to get to this point in the post:
Change your lifestyle, with God as your reason and your aid. Do not let up on being healthy, even when you can think of nothing but food. Do not put off the exercise, it's as important as not eating Mars bars.
You are not unchangeable or immovable. Your worth is not related to your waist size. Your life, your health, your example to those around you are worth the frustration, anger and pain. Choose to live, and to be healthy, at every turn. Know that you are weak, but that with God you can be strong.
Know that you will eat whatever you leave in the house, and stop buying those things. Get your treats in restaurants, at friends' houses, never at home. If you can, walk instead of driving. If you're married, have lots of sex.
Feel life, feel alive. Whatever you do that makes you feel lethargic, stop it. Stop watching TV and go for a walk with your friend or loved one. Life is about you, the people you meet, the God you worship. Feel it, live it.
There are no quick and easy fixes. But there is taking responsibility, living as God wants you to live, being active and full of life. I was there, and now I'm here. It's life changing, because of what you will learn about God and about yourself. Now, don't reply, switch off the screen, turn off the TV, and make peace with God. Then, knees permitting, go for a half-hour walk and see how far you can go.
God be with you.
* 17 stone ~ 108kg, or 240 pounds
** 13 stone ~ 83kg or 185 pounds
*** 13 stone 8 ~ 87kg or 192 pounds
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In my world an idea is a droplet forming, absorbing all until the drop drips, attaining flight, path unknown.
Free from its creator, and its creator free
To form another drop.
Droplets Forming
Posts: 79 | From: Guildford, Surrey, UK | Registered: Jul 2002
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Good for you, imagin8tor. I hope you don't get flamed as a relative newbie. Yes, some people are overweight for genuine medical reasons, but a lot aren't, and with a bit of work you can achieve change, and you don't have to be an ectomorph (naturally skinny build, as opposed to mesomorph - curvy, or endomorph - apple or pear shaped) for that to happen. It doesn't mean by losing weight you're morally superior either, it just means you've acheived something and it's ok that you should share your joy.
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Pearalis
Shipmate
# 9035
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by imagin8or:
If you're married, have lots of sex.
Now, don't reply, switch off the screen, turn off the TV, and make peace with God. Then, knees permitting, go for a half-hour walk and see how far you can go.
Wot if you're not married. Plus its midnight, freezing, dark and dangerous.
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Some days are diamonds, some days are stone.
Posts: 205 | From: Australia | Registered: Jan 2005
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Put on your favourite CD and get down and boogie. (quietly if you have neighbours and thin walls ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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ananke
Shipmate
# 10059
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by imagin8or:
Being overweight is not ok. It's a health risk. It's a mind risk. It's a spiritual risk. You are still a person though, you are worth no less because of the extra material around you. Don't fall into either of the pits - feeling worthless because of your weight, or feeling that being fat is ok. You are ok, but your weight is not. So take ownership, take charge of it. Live as a child of God, not a slave to consumption and image. You are more important and worth far more than the magazines will tell you, more than people will think you're worth, and far more than you know yourself. So honour the God that made you worth so much by taking care of the body you have; you are worth too much to have all the problems of being too fat. You and God together can make it.
God doesn't give a flying flick if I'm fat. I'm healthy (apart from the previously mentioned problems which are nowt to do with weight). My worth is not dependent upon a scale - no matter my weight I can still write, I can still love, I can still read.
If I were a slave to consumption and image I'd probably still be fat, I'd just hate myself. The biggest point is I don't hate myself and I'd rather not be told God wants me to hate myself for being fat - which seems to be the bent of this particular screed.
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...and I bear witness, this grace, this prayer so long forgotten.
A Perfect Circle - Magdalena
Posts: 617 | From: australia | Registered: Aug 2005
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
imagin8or, I might be more inclined to wade through your long post if you had shown the courtesy of reading at least some of the previous pages.
Huia
[ 15. July 2006, 11:33: Message edited by: Huia ]
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearalis:
quote:
Originally posted by imagin8or:
If you're married, have lots of sex.
Now, don't reply, switch off the screen, turn off the TV, and make peace with God. Then, knees permitting, go for a half-hour walk and see how far you can go.
Wot if you're not married. Plus its midnight, freezing, dark and dangerous.
Excuses, excuses.
Whether it's extra-marital sex, or walking, at midnight, when it's dark and dangerous is the best time.
Just Do It.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
And wet, LATA, don't forget wet.
Oh, it's wet and it's dark and it's dangerous
The Thing That People Do
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pearalis
Shipmate
# 9035
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Excuses, excuses.
Whether it's extra-marital sex, or walking, at midnight, when it's dark and dangerous is the best time.
Just Do It.
But excuses are my thing ! You want to take away my thing !
Also I'm confused about how to have extra-marital sex. If I go for a walk at midnight and get assaulted by a married stranger does that count? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Didn't they get rid of Just Do It for the Swoosh? Like how Prince became The Artist Formally Known as Prince, then The Artist, then Mr Squiggle.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Some days are diamonds, some days are stone.
Posts: 205 | From: Australia | Registered: Jan 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearalis:
Wot if you're not married. Plus its midnight, freezing, dark and dangerous.
Stay in bed and practice ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Take a cricket bat (or a baseball bat if from North America). Smash your television set with the bat repeatedly.
Take the remains outside, set light to them, and dance around in an energetic manner.
Do the same to your video recorder.
Computers are exempt, because I use one.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Yesterday, as I wondered back from going swimming (prompted partly by sitting and reading through the first n pages of this thread), I decided to pop into the shop and bought myself a mars ice-cream kingsize. This made me realise that something that has not been brought up on this thread is the increase of `kingsize' and `big eat' options when it comes to snacks, so rather than eating 35g of crisps you get 50g (for example). That definitely seems to me to be a way in which food companies are encouraging us to eat more unhealthily.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Ooops. At some point, I will learn the difference between wondering and wandering. I was doing the latter to get back from the swimming pool.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Carys, as an example in the other direction, the stoned adolescent who sits down to a half-gallon tub of ice cream has to satisfy her munchy-cravings these days with only 56 ounces, rather than the accustomed 64.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'm trying to imagine the response most people would get from a request for more sex for the purposes of losing weight.
Marriage - where one acquires a personal exercise machine of the opposite sex.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Probbly why the local loose woman was often known as The Village Bicycle.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm trying to imagine the response most people would get from a request for more sex for the purposes of losing weight.
"Wel dear, you wanted me to lose weight, so I've been having it away with all the girls in the office. I think I've lost nearly half a stone. I knew you'd be happy."
[sound of frying pan hitting head]
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
After wading through this thread (Whew!), I might add that dialysis and a liver and kidney transplant have been most beneficial in helping me lose 75 Lbs/34 Kgs since this time last year. Not that I would recommend it as a weight loss option...
One major down side of this is that no matter what I wear, it feels like I am wearing someone else's clothes. (I have literally had my trousers fall to my ankles because they were too big. Don't you just hate it when that happens?)
I am, however, still broke. I can't even pay attention.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Josephine,
I am sorry that I haven't been able to reply to this earlier. I travelled back to NZ from Britain the week before last (during which flight I was unfortunate enough to sit next to a fat gentleman who continually overflowed into my seat), and since then have been catching up with other things.
I think I may be presuptious enough to make the simple comment that if you a) avoid convenience food, b) don't eat too much of it and c) have some sort of knowledge about how to cook you are less likely to get fat. I wouldn't say that's conclusive. Of course some people are fat because they have genuine medical conditions. Or because they are on medication. My elder brother is overweight because he takes medication to control his psychosis. If he didn't take them, he'd probably soon be dead. Most people don't fit into either of these categories. I find it interesting that obesity in the West continues to rise. Obviously the reasons for this have both to do with a) the choices people have on offer and b) how they exercise their power of choice. That explains why France appears to have less of a problem with obesity, and north America more.
It does also explain why obesity (as opposed to a whole host of other things) is not a problem in Africa.
Now to your post: It is certainly presumptious to say that one cannot make that simple point with reference to anyonen at all by reference to a hard case (yours). I will say that your description of your day is familiar to me. I congratulate you on your use of time. But having said that, I notice this part of it:
quote:
There was only so much time in a day, and keeping my kids clean, well fed, and well rested were more important to me than going over their homework. There really wasn't time for everything. And if, for example, I also had to look after an elderly relative -- then something would have had to give up something else -- something else that was indeed important, but not as important as the other things. Cooking from scratch probably would have been it.
Which means that we agree. If you really think that doing a weekly shop is more important to me than occasional emergencies then you have extrapolated something from my post that I neither said or implied in any way at all. Failing that, the fuel you put in your kids' bodies is of course important (and incidentally, I never had my homework checked as a child because my parents relied on the teacher to keep tabs on such things. I've always thought it a rather odd habit)
I will say one thing extra, although I probably should not. Fiddleback's comments on this thread were not helpful. Ridicule never helps anyone do anything. What is ten times more offensive than anything Fiddleback, Cosmo, or anyone else has said is that while a good third of the world frequently starves a much smaller part of it bemoans its obesity problem and cynically uses medical conditions in order to avoid the moral blame. Or alternatively, the "I am an island" argument that obesity is no-one's business but one's own. No, I am not making any comment on any particular individual, certainly not anyone who has posted on this thread because I assume people are honest, but taking a step back and looking at the issue on the level of society as a whole this clearly is what has happened. It is really very simple, we have too much and if we had a bit less we'd ironically be better off. Food is no exception.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
It is really very simple.
No, it isn't. This is something you, and Fiddleback, and Cosmo, just don't understand. It's not really simple. If it were really simple, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
What is ten times more offensive than anything Fiddleback, Cosmo, or anyone else has said is that while a good third of the world frequently starves a much smaller part of it bemoans its obesity problem and cynically uses medical conditions in order to avoid the moral blame. Or alternatively, the "I am an island" argument that obesity is no-one's business but one's own. No, I am not making any comment on any particular individual, certainly not anyone who has posted on this thread because I assume people are honest, but taking a step back and looking at the issue on the level of society as a whole this clearly is what has happened. It is really very simple, we have too much and if we had a bit less we'd ironically be better off. Food is no exception.
As Mousethief says, it really isn't simple, otherwise it'd all be solved and there'd be no need for a huge, multi-million pound 'diet industry'.
But accepting what you say - that fat is a moral issue in a starving world - you have to also accept that the opposite is true. The rich (and in that context all of us posting are rich) spending huge amounts of time, energy and money in pursuit of a skinny body in a world where people are starving doesn't strike me as particularly edifying either. I find it difficult to see the fashionable women pictured in Nonpropheteer's link earlier as morally superior to someone who has to work for a living, spends less time on their beauty regime and is therefore a bit plump. And since you don't believe medical conditions can cause weight gain, I presume people with compulsive eating disorders are included in the general condemnation? Fine, as long as anorexics and bulimics are included on the same terms.
To steal from Telepath, the problem is that we live in an eating disordered society. I just get irritable when one symptom of that - the overweight - gets singled out for vilification.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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magdalenegospel
Shipmate
# 11619
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Posted
The Malawi comment - that there aren't people with over-eating disorders in Malawi - is something of a red herring.
I'm reliably informed* that there is next to no dyslexia (of the sort that is diagnosed in an educational setting) in Italian speakers, due to the way that the language is constructed.
It doesn't mean that they can't be dyslexic in another language.
I suspect that Binge-eating disorder and other metabolic disorders are triggered by certain circumstances in the developed world, in addition to the availability of food.
Just a thought.
*Butterworth [i}the mathematical brain[/i]. Stansfield J, various papers on the prevalence of dyslexic disorders in European languages.
Posts: 75 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2006
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by magdalenegospel:
The Malawi comment - that there aren't people with over-eating disorders in Malawi - is something of a red herring.
I'm not a geneticist, or whatever one has to be to have an in-depth knowledge of such things, but is it mot possible that people there do have over-eating disorders, but lack the ability to over-eat?
In other words, is the fact that they can't over-eat enough to show that no disorder exists in any of them?
[ 23. July 2006, 17:49: Message edited by: Papio ]
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I am growing so tired of the idea that everything would be just so wonderful if the entire world were poor and starving.
Oh, I forgot... we're all rich. Yet I wish that having things such as running water, food of some kind on the table, electricity, a better chance at a longer lifespan and good general health than our parents had, were things for which we could be grateful rather than guilty.
(I would not be surprised - and I am not asking - if there are many Ship mates who either are or at some time have been struggling just to survive.)
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
It is really very simple.
No, it isn't. This is something you, and Fiddleback, and Cosmo, just don't understand. It's not really simple. If it were really simple, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
And this thread would be over long ago.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
It is really very simple.
No, it isn't. This is something you, and Fiddleback, and Cosmo, just don't understand. It's not really simple. If it were really simple, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
It is really simple.
It's just not really easy, for many people.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
quote:
I am growing so tired of the idea that everything would be just so wonderful if the entire world were poor and starving.
Oh, I forgot... we're all rich. Yet I wish that having things such as running water, food of some kind on the table, electricity, a better chance at a longer lifespan and good general health than our parents had, were things for which we could be grateful rather than guilty.
It's pretty lame to follow up on somebody's post for the sole purpose of saying "yeah".
Which is why I put in the above paragraph before saying, "yeah, Newman's Own!"
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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ananke
Shipmate
# 10059
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
It is really simple.
It's just not really easy, for many people.
How hard is it to see that there are concrete REASONS for obesity that have nothing to do with individuals and everything to do with society/culture? Not to mention medicine?
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...and I bear witness, this grace, this prayer so long forgotten.
A Perfect Circle - Magdalena
Posts: 617 | From: australia | Registered: Aug 2005
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by ananke:
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Telepath:
It is really simple.
It's just not really easy, for many people.
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How hard is it to see that there are concrete REASONS for obesity that have nothing to do with individuals and everything to do with society/culture? Not to mention medicine?
I can't tell if you have cited my post because you want to challenge it, or because you want to use it as support for your own post.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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magdalenegospel
Shipmate
# 11619
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Posted
There was an article in the Guardian citing studies on Western-process Soya products suggesting that they affect our thyroids among other things. Given that that sort of Soy is very common in cheap foods, it asks the question about whose fault is it that the metabolisms of individuals are slowly being screwed up, so that we struggle to eat the right amount of foods.
Eastern-Process soy - tofu, miso etc - seems to be OK as long as it's been done properly.
Posts: 75 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by magdalenegospel:
Given that that sort of Soy is very common in cheap foods, it asks the question about whose fault is it that the metabolisms of individuals are slowly being screwed up, so that we struggle to eat the right amount of foods.
Just out of interest, the stuff I said earlier I remembered about cheap chicken was re-stated on daytime TV this week. A nutritionist was saying that you could no longer count on chicken to be a low fat, healthy meat, as cheap mass-produced chicken is actually very high fat due to the sedentery lives and unnatural diet of the chickens.
I'm very much of the opinion that less, even very little, good quality meat is a better option than cheap meat. Even if that means a vegetarian or near-vegetarian diet while times are tough. Having just lost our main income, for a while at least, this topic is close to my heart at the moment. And the subject of some domestic argument.
I do think it would be a good idea for schools to teach basic cookery from raw ingredients, both meat and veggie.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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EnglishRose
Shipmate
# 4808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Just out of interest, the stuff I said earlier I remembered about cheap chicken was re-stated on daytime TV this week. A nutritionist was saying that you could no longer count on chicken to be a low fat, healthy meat, as cheap mass-produced chicken is actually very high fat due to the sedentery lives and unnatural diet of the chickens.
Even "good quality" chicken contains hidden ingredients these days. I was shopping in M&S recently and happened to glance at the packets of cooked chicken drumsticks/thighs/quarters etc. I was horrified to see that sugar was listed (in very small print) as one of the ingredients. Why? These were packets of 'plain' chicken, no fancy sauces or marinades. I wonder how many people would buy pre-cooked chicken from M&S in the belief that they were buying a healthy option for lunch/supper, little realising that they were buying a product laden with sugar?
[ 25. July 2006, 13:40: Message edited by: Curiosus ]
Posts: 544 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2003
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
Coincidentally we had a post-natal class on weaning this afternoon, and as part of that we examined the teensy-tiny ingredients print on commercial baby foods. It was absolutely shocking!
A jar of cottage pie baby food on which sugar was the third top ingredient (below some sort of scary 'beef product' and reconstituted potato). Products marked 'suitable from 4 months' containing ingredients not recommended before 6 months or a year. One familiar product describing itself as 'nutritionally tailored to meet the needs of your growing baby' contained practically no nutritional value besides sugar. 'Fruit' foods with very little fruit, but an awful lot of flavourings.
Now, before the 'it's their own fault they're stupid' brigade bite my head off, I know that buying commercial baby foods is not cost effective, and that sensible people read the ingredients. But people who lack the skills, knowledge or confidence to make up their baby food from scratch could easily be led to believe that in spending a more than manageable amount on prepackaged food they are doing the best for their baby by giving them food formulated by experts. When actually they're setting them up with a taste for processed, sugar-laden crap.
Caveat emptor is all very well, but surely food manufacturers need to take some responsibility for what they try to pass off as healthy food across the board, from chickens packed with hormones, fat and water, to trans-fats and corn syrup, to these manky baby foods.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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EnglishRose
Shipmate
# 4808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
But people who lack the skills, knowledge or confidence to make up their baby food from scratch could easily be led to believe that in spending a more than manageable amount on prepackaged food they are doing the best for their baby by giving them food formulated by experts.
I think that this is true for many consumers, not just those buying baby food. Imagine that you are significantly overweight and that this is beginning to have an impact on your health. You decide to start eating healthily: lots of fruit juice, fruit yoghurts instead of chocolate cheesecake, plain chicken instead of takeaway. However, you weren't taught to cook as a child and/or have little confidence in your ability to cook 'proper' meals. You want to do the right thing so you start buying pre-prepared 'healthy' food which you think has been formulated by experts. What you don't realise is that the food prepared by experts is filled with sugar and hidden fats. And before anyone says "can't you read?", just remember that many of the sugars and fats are listed under long scientific names that mean nothing to the average consumer. Is it therefore any wonder that some people put on weight without overeating and/or struggle to lose weight? Yes, we are responsible for the quantity of food that we eat, but companies who load so-called 'healthy foods' with hidden sugars and fats cannot escape a degree of responsibility for the current obesity epidemic.
Posts: 544 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2003
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EnglishRose
Shipmate
# 4808
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Posted
[Apologies for the double post - ran out of editing time!]
There's a very interesting article in The Times today about high fructose corn syrup used in many health foods. It may sound healthy but many experts believe that it is a direct cause of obesity and may even be short-wiring our metabolisms. It's also very difficult to avoid - to quote part of the article:
quote:
“It is everywhere. You don’t always realise where it crops up because you don’t look for it, so you can take in large quantities of HFCS and think you are eating healthily.”
Posts: 544 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2003
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curious
...just remember that many of the sugars and fats are listed under long scientific names that mean nothing to the average consumer.
I read a label on a can of creamed corn which listed 'desiccated cane juice' as an ingredient. Cane sugar, anyone?
I haven't been able to find creamed corn without sugar for about thirty-five years. I have an excellent corn chowder recipe which tastes awful with added sugar.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Damn straight, Curiosus.
People should be able to go to a shop and buy food on the default assumption that it contains food. They shouldn't have to have the analytical obsessiveness of, well, me, to find a freaking meal they can eat.
Oh, and. A while back I read something about big words like "fructose" being scary for people, and how it would be helpful to call it "fruit sugar" instead.
Of course, most people will assume "fruit sugar" is so much better for you than that nasty sugar sugar. You know, like honey is better because it's been puked up by one of Nature's Bees.
And what will they get? Most of the time, probably, the enormously fatogenic high-fructose corn syrup! Give it up for obfuscation! Go on, give it up!
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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