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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: It's not my fault I'm fat and broke!
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
primarily, the owners of the means of production.
Bingo-zingo. And it's to their advantage for us to buy more food and borrow more money. So they bombard us with messages telling us to do so. And by golly, it works.
Why yes, that would have been my original point.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I would concur totally banks ( or other institutions ) who loan money that the borrower cannot repay are stupid and negligent. The number of adverts for "clear your debt" services does indicate that this is a growing problem. The debt agreement ( where everyone agrees exactly how much and when the money will be paid off ) are better than the new loan ones ( which really make me sick - so, you can't pay off all your debt - why not borrow money to do so. F*ckwits ).
However, the free availability of credit does put much more responsibility onto individuals to not take advantage of it. ISTM that some people are very bad at making their lifestyle choices sensibly, because the temptation of the credit proves too hard to resist. Since Adam and Eve, we have struggled with temptation, and far too often given in. That is not to excuse it, but to acknowledge that it is a part of being human.
The food issue is actually very similar, and closely related - in both ways. As individuals, we need to take responsibility in a society where food is abundant, to not overeat. But, very often we will fail. However there is also a responsibility on the food manufacturers to make food that is not especially unhealthy or addictive. Which tends to be in contradiction to their business needs to sell more and produce cheaply. Extra salt in the fries will increase drinks sales.
Is it my fault I am fat and broke ( if I was )? Yes, without question. Do the financial organisations and food manufacturers ( and advertisers ) also have a degree of culpability? Probably, if they have pushed products onto me that are not in my best interests, when I am not in a position to make good choices.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
We live in a society which seems to value us by how much we have and what brand it is.
We have to have the best house, the best TV, the best clothes, the best holidays and these cost money. So many people fall into the trap of thinking that this is what makes us successful.
Banks aren't actually responsible for that culture. However, to the extent that they cash in on it, they can do very well out of the interest that they earn. If you can pay it back, no problem, even if after 10 years, all you have to show for your hard work is a nice house, nice telly and no time to spend with either of them.
Banks do sometimes lend to people who can't afford to repay them. But they don't actually want that type of customer. It's nuts to think that banks want to lend someone $30,000 and get none of it back. Bankruptcy means that the debts are handled by and administrator and most of the debts of the bankrupt are usually not recovered by the lenders. No lender wants to be an unsecured lender of a bankrupt.
Banks who lend to people without doing proper assessments need to wear the loss that arises from doing so. But people who borrow money and spend it, have to bear some responsibility.
But in my view, the only way to stop this ridiculous borrowing/spending/getting into trouble cycle, is for society to get its act together and value things more important that the executive lifestyle.
As for weight - well, I put eating in much the same category as drugs, alcohol, gambling and spending. It's fine in moderation, but it can be addictive. When it becomes addictive, it's a problem. But a health problem, rather than a social problem. At the moment, it's treated as a social problem.
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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Banks do sometimes lend to people who can't afford to repay them. But they don't actually want that type of customer. It's nuts to think that banks want to lend someone $30,000 and get none of it back.
This is true, but they aren't generally too keen on lending to people who will repay everything on time, either. Most of their profit comes in penalty charges for late payment, excess interest for the same, and so on, so their ideal borrower is someone who will just about stay afloat long enough to pay off the debt, needing frequent extensions along the way. Sometimes they sail a little too close to the wind, and push someone into bankruptcy, but they just consider that an occupational hazard, which barely puts a dent in their profits. It's still worth their while to target the people who are right on the edge. It makes me sick.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
Not sure that I agree with that (although maybe it is different in the US/UK).
Banks borrow funds to lend out. That costs money. They really want a customer who pays on time, at least for personal and home loans. No bank wants to write off a loan or sell the security behind a loan. It costs too much.
Credit cards are a different matter and what they really want in those cases is a customer who pays the minumum monthly balance. They do load up the accounts with fees, but at the end of the day, they do want a customer who can service the debt. Once the customer can't pay at all, the bank is stuffed.
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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I used to work in a bank, (many years ago). I left in 1979 which was just about the time the lending culture began to change. Before this time, the bank manager was an accessible person who ran the local branch. "Business managers" and "Personal Lending Consultants" were unheard of. If you wanted an overdraft, you went to see the manager. Nobody had sales targets, competition between the banks wasn't as ferocious as it is now and the economy may have been bankrupt but it didn't run on personal debt to the same extent. In the UK at least a deliberate decision was made to take the foot off the brake and deregulate. Plastic became the easy ticket to have now pay later (or never). It didn't matter now that the bank didn't know its personal customers personally ... all you needed to bother about was the credit score, tick boxes and sales targets. Money became a commodity like any other other and not just a medium of exchange. The genie is out of the bottle now and there's no way back short of an economic crisis. Global warming could become the thing that unstitches it all. There are indeed "limits to growth."
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Not sure that I agree with that (although maybe it is different in the US/UK).
I'm not an expert, but the crux of the programme mentioned in the OP was a bank executive (identity hidden to protect her career) claiming that the UK banks do exactly what Gumby described. The greatest profit is to be made from from people skating along the edge of bankruptcy. If they do fall over the edge, sufficient profit will have been made over the course of the loan from interest and penalties to make up for the loss of part of the principal. And most people don't fall over - in the final, final end most lenders will negotiate a settlement that means they get some part of their money back over time rather than let the borrower default altogether through bankruptcy. So the banks deliberately target people with a somewhat dodgy credit record.
That was the claim anyway, I don't have the expertise to say whether it's the whole story or not.
[ 04. July 2006, 09:22: Message edited by: Rat ]
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
I don't buy it, Rat. The most profitable loan surely comes from lending X amount over X years at X interest, and getting it paid back as contracted.
The minute it falls into arrears, someone needs to be paid to chase the debt. If it falls over altogether, the bank may not lose out completely, but it loses all that future interest. Someone teetering on bankruptcy is a nightmare to deal with.
As I said earlier, credit cards fall into a slightly different basket. Banks want cardholders to pay the minimum. They can keep the interest running forever.
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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I don't care if someone is fat or not (or broke). It just seems strange to me that people can be so interested in eating mass quantities when food is personally not very interesting. In fact, hunger is a pain in the ass, demanding daily attention. That so many can find satisfaction and reward in something so mundane is beyond me. When used as compensation for depression or whatever, it's as though you would want to breathe more air because you've had a bad day.
Yes, but that's why you're (probably) not fat! It's like the people who say smoking is horrid, I can't understand why you do it, I tried it once and didn't like it. Well, exactly!
Gambling simply holds no interest for me whatsoever - been there, done it, been bored - so I suspect my chances of becoming a gambling addict are low. Dangerous, high-adreneline sports, too, do nothing for me at all. But for some people these things evidently fill a need they need filling.
There's no big success in resisting something that doesn't tempt you.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The profitable loan is to someone with a poor credit rating, who does eventually pay off all the loan. The reason is that the interest rate, because they are a high risk, is high ( sometimes stupidly so ). This means that, if they actually do pay it all off, they get a lot of interest for no real trouble. If they do have to start chasing, then this is built into the interest rate, so they will still make some significant profit. It is only if they have to write off the loan at an early stage that they will make a significant loss, which is why they are so nice about trying to help you pay.
I had a car loan many years ago, that I knew I was going to be able to pay back fairly quickly. I chose a loan that would allow me to do so without any problems. The total cost of the loan was very small - I was probably not considered their best customer that year!
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I don't buy it, Rat. The most profitable loan surely comes from lending X amount over X years at X interest, and getting it paid back as contracted.
The minute it falls into arrears, someone needs to be paid to chase the debt.
Ah, but at that point the bank sells the debt on to another company. So they don't pay out, they make some money on the deal, on top of the interest and penalties they've already pulled in. And the fact that debt retrieval companies are willing to buy up bad debts would suggest that there's at least some money to be made there too.
I can't really argue the point very well, I don't know enough about it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Banks must like good payers too, or those of us who're not on the edge of bankruptcy wouldn't be able to get loans and mortgages. But by the same logic, there must be profit to be made from dodgy credit risks, or the cable TV channels wouldn't be loaded down with adverts by companies offering consolidation loans to the indebted. Many of them say outright that they'll lend to people who already have bad credit ratings or county-court judgements against them for bad debt.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I don't buy it, Rat. The most profitable loan surely comes from lending X amount over X years at X interest, and getting it paid back as contracted.
Depends what charges you make for missed or late payments. Let's say I lend you Ł1,000 to be paid back in 10 monthly payments of Ł105. That'll net me a profit of Ł50 in 10 months. But suppose you're struggling to pay it off, and one month (say month 6) you can't make your payment. I, as your bank manager, charge you, say, Ł20 for the missed payment, and charge interest to your outstanding debt to cover the missed payment, which could be at a punitive rate of interest, but for the sake of argument I'll be generous and call it another Ł4 for each remaining month, so Ł20 in total. I get my money back in 11 months instead of 10, but I make Ł90 profit instead of Ł50.
I've not done anything in that example that would be unusual, in fact I've been fairly generous in some of my charges compared with some real-life examples, but I've substantially increased my profit for very little effort on my part. There's no need to "chase" debt at this sort of level, because provision for these charges will be built into the loan agreement - generally, you can just send a new statement and ask the borrower to call you to discuss the missed payment. Word the letter in sufficiently threatening terms and they'll be desperate to talk to you.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
I must admit I felt very uncomfortable at a recent Christian Aid week service that was led by a mixture of overweight and obese people begging the congregation to give more money. It was more the dissonance, rather than hypocracy, that got me.
I can't help feeling that despite wanting to show Christian sympathy and charity, and awareness of the need for personal responsibility, the reason why a lot of Western people are fat and poor is simply a reflection of where they are in the evolutionary cycle.
In the past being fat was a sign of wealth (see current attitudes in Africa Obesity problems in SA - some fascinating comments on the article too) now being thin (and healthy and living longer) is a sign of being rich.
A combination of intelligence and strong will power these days in the West is more likely to mean one is financially comfortable and fit and healthy and at the top of the evolutionary pile. I'm sure there are lots of shipmates who would say they are exceptions (probably that they're intelligent but fat), but this is the logical conclusion about the general situation.
Mousethief said:
quote:
Look, I know the reason I'm fat. I'm fat because eating and chatting on the computer are more pleasant by factors of 10 than exercise. Plain and simple.
AND
It also occurs to me that people who berate others for being fat tend to be people with extremely high metabolisms, and large amounts of self-righteousness.
C'mon, you know the evidence is against you ![[Biased]](wink.gif) . (and calling fit people self-righteous is just protecting yourself with insults whatever the evidence presented - no wry smile with finger wagging smiley available ).
Firstly, exercise creates endorphins, natural highs, so it is provably fun! Secondly, you may feel too tired to exercise, but actually if you do it it makes you more energetic and lifts lethargy. Thirdly, regarding metabolic rate, the more exercise you do, the higher it gets, so it's a circular arguement. You're base metabolism may be naturally low or high, but it will improve if you do exercise.
Trust me, I used to hate sport as a kid; I was always the last one to be picked, but I forced myself to take up exercise for a squadrillion reasons (mainly to get to spend time with my husband, but also so I had the energy to have kids, and because I can see my father-in-law's life being ruined by his excess weight and type II diabetes). I'm still at the back of the group in my triathlon club's training sessions, but I'm there and I'm improving and I'm taking responsibility for my health. (Personally, I think the thing is, most people just find it hard to grasp the fact that you're meant to get out of breath when you exercise, and yes it is mildly uncomfortable, but it gets better, and is immensely satisfying and the overall impact on your life is potentially huge).
Perhaps the famous dictum could just as well be 'the fat get fatter and the thin get thinner'. But I do think as a part of Christian maturity, which involves personal responsiblity, looking after our physical health is just as important a part as looking after our mental and spiritual health, as our life is a gift, not to be abused or wasted. Sure, it's easy to point the finger, but I think the Church's focus on sexual sin etc. misses out on the more pernicious and pervasive sin of greed, which applies to both these issues - food and money.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Exercise doesn't produce endorphins for me, or at least I don't react pleasurably to them. All I get is out of breath, fed up, and in pain.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I was a gym member for a year. And I actually went, 2-3 times a week.
It didn't give me a high at all, or a real sense of satisfaction. I could see the improvements that it made, but it was not enough to keep me doing it.
Sitting at home, eating doughnuts is far more fun.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Yes, the only pleasure I have ever noticed from exercise is the feeling of relief when I stop.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Sport = ritual humiliation, getting jeered at by stupid jocks who couldn't pass a proper exam if their lives depended on it, feeling as though you have the worlds worst hangover, getting called a poofter and being beaten up in the shower room. Sweating a lot.
The Gym = largely the same as above, but you pay an obscene amount of money for the privelledge.
It's not even as though I actually lost any weight when I went to the gymn three times a week. I didn't.
I am fat and don't excercise. I almost certainly won't live to 90, perhaps not much past 60 (although i hope I do) but better that then going to the gym for the rest of my life. Yuck.
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Infinite Penguins.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Yes, the only pleasure I have ever noticed from exercise is the feeling of relief when I stop.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Last 3 posters - then do a form of exercise that you enjoy! Go hiking, dancing, play frisbee. Do it more than just occassionally and you will feel the benefits. If I said driving gives you a feeling of freedom, you might not agree with me even after your first 3 or 4 lessons. Exercise is about a way of life, not sitting on your arse eating blood sugar rush inducing rubbish. And when you can walk up to your offie on the 4th floor without getting out of breath or using the lift you will feel a smile coming across your face and feel energised to face the day.
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Take up cycling. Nothing is more satisfying than abusing motorists in traffic, and then speeding away leaving them in impotent rage.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Last 3 posters - then do a form of exercise that you enjoy! Go hiking, dancing, play frisbee. Do it more than just occassionally and you will feel the benefits.
Already do that. But there's not a lot of opportunity for a really good fellwalk with a kid, another on the way, and a job. Of course, you can explain to Mrs Backslider why she should look after the kids every other Saturday, but best of luck.
quote:
If I said driving gives you a feeling of freedom, you might not agree with me even after your first 3 or 4 lessons. Exercise is about a way of life, not sitting on your arse eating blood sugar rush inducing rubbish.
Aye, but there's the rub. It's a way of life some of us don't enjoy. At all. The exercise I get out of fellwalking is a by-product; if I could find a way of doing it without the physical exertion I would.
quote:
And when you can walk up to your offie on the 4th floor without getting out of breath or using the lift you will feel a smile coming across your face and feel energised to face the day.
Can already do that. Tenth floor if called for. No exercise regime required
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
Oh no, I can hear my hobby horse cantering up behind me. Must resist...must resist...
But please. In 37 years of life I think I've tried every form of exercise available in this country (with the exception of rugby). And I've persisted, God have I persisted. Played team games with friends, joined clubs, went to exercise classes, gym 4 times a week for 2 years. And I fucking hated every single fucking minute. Every single one was a chore, pursued with grim determination and no enjoyment at all. Why on earth can't people who like exercise believe that other people don't?
How many people who just love to exercise would be happy to sign up to spending every evening after work doing some chore they don't enjoy? For life? Might they backslide a little, maybe even decide to have some fun instead sometimes? I suspect so. Then can the rest of us lecture them about their lack of application and self-indulgence, and give them no credit for what they have forced themselves, miserably, to do?
(I do enjoy cycling, thank god, and cycled a 16 mile round trip to work in summer for the last 2 years. Didn't lose any weight, though.)
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
About a year ago one of the colour supplements had an article about people who had commited suicide because of their debts. Anyway they managed to talk to someone who had been a junior government minister in the 1980's involved in the changes to credit laws. They expected him to say that it was not the governments' fault - however he did admit that they may have gone too far. He talked about the old days (1960's and 70's) when loans were largely confined to the middle classes (I remember when you needed to have saved with a building society for a few years before they would offer you a mortgage and the early credit cards were only available to those who were approved by their bank manager and with a credit limit set by him/her) and the government wanted to expand teh availability of credit to everyone so they did - they extended the availablity of credit to anyone - basically they allowed any financila institution to lend to anyone who walked in off the street whatever they wanted. The ex-minister admitted that this was probably not a good idea.
I suppose it was a bit like letting children who previously had to ask their parents for sweets the freedom to help themselves to whatever they like whenever they liked from the sweetshop.
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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Used to enjoy Rugby but it wasn't a great form of exercise, not at the level I played anyway.
Too much beer and post-match curries and you work, when young, to get your weight up then you can't shed the bloody stuff when you stop playing and a relatively tightly packed 15 stone become a very flabby 18 stone in (it seems) weeks.
Me on a cycle? You jest. It looks like the saddle is missing and the frame has disappeared up my arse ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Astro
I can back that up absolutely. I left the banking industry in 1979 precisely when these changes came into force. It's been downhill all the way since. Of course, if we didn't get ourselves into debt the economy would probably collapse. Credit is the new junk food. You can't stop and you can't get enough. We're all hooked ... including the Chancellor.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Astro:
He talked about the old days (1960's and 70's) when loans were largely confined to the middle classes (I remember when you needed to have saved with a building society for a few years before they would offer you a mortgage and the early credit cards were only available to those who were approved by their bank manager and with a credit limit set by him/her).
Reminds me of the old definition:
Bank: A place where, in order to get a loan, you have to prove you don't need one.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
I must admit I felt very uncomfortable at a recent Christian Aid week service that was led by a mixture of overweight and obese people begging the congregation to give more money. It was more the dissonance, rather than hypocracy, that got me.
What dissonance? Surely you don't actually believe that these people wouldn't need to collect money from the congregation if they donated their own grocery money instead?
Studies done several years ago, proved once and for all, that the average "overweight" person actually eats a little less than skinny folk. That's because years of dieting (they also have exceptionally good will-power) had taught their bodies to live on less calories than average.
It's a shame to lump problems with money and problems with weight in one thread. We have far more control over our spending habits than our weight. Genetic factors and our body's own strong desire to defend it's own weight make losing and keeping it off virtually impossible for a large segment of society. We're not fat because we're lazy, weak, or under-evolved. We're fat because we diet. We're fat because depleted fat cells are desperate to replenish themselves before the next "famine" comes along.
Fact. 98% of people who lose weight regain it within five years. The other 2% probably died. They aren't all weak or lacking in strong Christian values.
Case in point -- me. I weighed about 110 during my 20's and 30's and people thought I looked very fit.Truth was, I smoked 2 packs a day. Once I quit smoking I gained 60 pounds in six months. I've lost and re-gained that 60 pounds about five times.
Jan.1st 2005. I gave up all sweets. Since then not so much as a piece of birthday cake or a spoon of jam has passed my lips. I also began working-out six days a week. By Jan. 1st 2006 I had lost the 60 pounds. At that point, following the same program, my body began to regain.
My body has learned to live on less calories and compensate for the extra activity. I've gained back a pound a month since then. In five years I'll have it all back; only then I'll be just as fat, while having to work-out six days a week and never eating sweets.
We can't win this battle.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
quote:
I've tried every form of exercise available...I hated every ****ing single minute......................(I do enjoy cycling, thank god, and cycled a 16 mile round trip to work in summer for the last 2 years. Didn't lose any weight, though.)
?
And anyway, it's not that you didn't lose weight, it's whether you gained weight, or how much more you would have gained if you hadn't done in.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
done in ? sorry, done it
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I do walk where I reasonable can. I even have a pedometer, which is quite interesting. I always use the stairs, not the lift.
Sports I am so rubbish at, you wouldn't believe, so no way. Hiking - we do when on holiday, and that is lots of fun, but it takes a lot of time out, so is rarely practical outside specific breaks.
Cycling - I cycled to work for a year or so, in East London. Please would those who suggest cycling do this - in London, in the rush hour, every day for at least a few months. And then tell me that "Cycling is such a pleasure". F*cking awful, but it does help your prayer life. Along with dancing, I don't have a good sense of balance, so these will never be natural for me, and so will always be hard work.
I am overweight. There are two related reasons for this. Firstly, I tend to live a fairly sedentary lifestyle - I work in an office on computers. I do what I can, including taking a reasonable walk at lunchtimes, but it is a hard job, and I really have no energy to do anything else outside work. Why do I have no energy - partly because of being overweight, and partly due to being ill.
Secondly, when I am feeling grotty, I tend to eat - comfort eating. Not good, but the sugar boost it gives me does help me continue. Of course it doesn't help the weight. I know I am not the only one for whom this is an issue - either I eat something which puts on weight, or I am totally lethargic, and unable to function. So I eat, which ( in the longer term ) drives the spiral downwards.
So I'm human. Sorry.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
I have always weighed more than I should, and have always eaten significantly less then do my skinny grandparents (who eat cakes every single day ffs).
Not only do people who weigh a few stones more than they should tend to eat LESS then you, they tend to buy CHEAPER food than you, oh skinny judgemental ones.
[ 04. July 2006, 13:16: Message edited by: Papio ]
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I loathe lawsuits, laws, and the like aimed at regulating people's behaviour - and Lord knows there can be very tragic, devastating reasons that one is fat or broke or both. I loathe stereotypes most of all.
Yeah, people scream "medical condition" all day long, and that is true for a minority. But the fact is the majority of people would not be as fat as they are if they would eat healthier foods and engage in moderate exercise 30 minutes a day 3 days a week. Myself included.
quote:
Originally posted by madteawoman:
If there were no advertising, there would be very little temptation. My level of willpower would be far less relevant, because there would be much less to resist.
I hate this attitude. "I'm a a mindless zombie and demand someone else take responsibility for my gastronomical decisions because I have no self control -but I should still be able to vote, drive a car, and have sex." WTF is that?? You are responsible for your own choices. If you continue to overconsume sugar and get adult-onset diabetes because of that - You're at fault, not sugary snacks. If advertising is such a problem, quit reading magazines and watching commercial television.
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
I must admit I felt very uncomfortable at a recent Christian Aid week service that was led by a mixture of overweight and obese people begging the congregation to give more money. It was more the dissonance, rather than hypocracy, that got me.
What dissonance? Surely you don't actually believe that these people wouldn't need to collect money from the congregation if they donated their own grocery money instead?
OK. How about incongrous. Big fat person stands up and says 'please feed the starving little children'. I can see the cartoon already.
quote:
We're fat because we diet. We're fat because depleted fat cells are desperate to replenish themselves before the next "famine" comes along.
Don't diet, eat healthily in the first place. Yo-yo dieting never works. Just cabbage soup vs. normal 3 meals a day is obviously going to confuse the body's metabolism.
quote:
Jan.1st 2005. I gave up all sweets. Since then not so much as a piece of birthday cake or a spoon of jam has passed my lips. I also began working-out six days a week. By Jan. 1st 2006 I had lost the 60 pounds. At that point, following the same program, my body began to regain.
My body has learned to live on less calories and compensate for the extra activity. I've gained back a pound a month since then. In five years I'll have it all back; only then I'll be just as fat, while having to work-out six days a week and never eating sweets.
I'm sorry you've struggled, but there are a lot more factors to just not eating sweets and doing exercise. Yes, the body does get used to changes and so we have to change our training programmes. It makes sense, if you're fitter you have to push yourself harder to get results. The same programme for years will become increasingly less effective. Paula Radcliffe isn't doing the same training she did as a teenager, why would it be any different for anyone else. Sweets obviously aren't the only source of calories. And it's scientific fact that as we grow older our muscle mass depletes more and it's easier to put on weight. That's why experienced athletes in their 60s don't break world records, but they still go for 'good for age' results. I was a fat teenager, it took me to the age of 26 before I could run 10km faster than my dad (who by then was 64).
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We can't win this battle.
Agreed if you're referring to age. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be fit and healthy. My father-in-law is close to losing his foot, and thus essentially his independence, due to type II diabetes and a preference to have a touch of bread with his butter rather than a smidgen of butter on his bread, for that momentary taste, and then is miserable with diabetic depression the rest of the time. My dad is still running half marathons and is having the time of his life in his retirement despite probably being a stone heavier than he was 15 years ago. I certainly know which lifestyle I'd prefer.
[ 04. July 2006, 14:20: Message edited by: Callan ]
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
NP,
If advertising doesn't effect people's behaviour, why does anyone bother to advertise?
And healthier food is, almost always, more expensive.
(Xpost)
[ 04. July 2006, 13:21: Message edited by: Papio ]
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I am far from being a capitalist, but those who are can use material on this and other recent threads to make a bloody fortune. The stereotypes and contempt can be cleverly manipulated to trade on people's insecurity and increase their self-hatred to a point where one can cast oneself as a Saviour (not like Jesus of Nazareth - perhaps a combination of bullying parent and torturer) and cloak it all under a concern for health.
Queue up, all you fat, lazy slobs. Don't tell me that you haven't opened a packet of crisps in ten years, or that the last time there were sweets in the larder was when you had company last Christmas. I'll help you lose your 'safe' one or two pounds a month this year, then convince you, next year, that you are gaining it all back as healthy muscle.
I won't need to worry that you have other interests - I can teach you to hate yourself so much that you'll want me to sell you 'motivation' and 'self-esteem.' Forget about even attending church - no one will be able to stand the presence of a hypocrite like yourself. Never mind spiritual, intellectual, or creative pursuits - your sentence is to a life that consists only of earning a living and exercising. I need not worry that you might have friends - soon, your sole topic of conversation will be your weight loss efforts, and no one will want the company of anyone so self-absorbed. (You will not detect this, of course. If I can convince you of how disgusting you are, you will feel the need to constantly defend yourself.)
Oh, you cannot fool me. You could not sleep last night, because the hunger was keeping you awake? Liar! You have got to stop kidding yourself. Or maybe I can charge you a bit more, convincing you that you are 'sick.' I could make more on a pathetic neurotic turning to her comfort foods.
You are not entitled to a life. After all, a disgusting slob like yourself is a bad example to everyone, and a strain on the NHS. Everyone can see through you. What, you hit a plateau? Well, at least you're not gaining. You are gaining? Though you still are following the programme? What did you expect? Haven't you used Google lately? Weren't you aware that 'successes' are those who did not gain everything back after the first six months?
Capitalists who wish to employ this plan must target those who already have serious weight problems - because they are unlikely to get down to 'ideal weight.' Get doctors involved - people must not lose any substantial amount of weight, that's 'unsafe.' You can therefore have people with problems that will go on forever, and laugh all the way to the bank.
It is a 'win-win' situation. When you get to the bank, you can further learn how to keep the poor in grave debt out of desperation (I heard they are just as contemptible as the overweight), then convince the middle class that poverty is ahead if they do not buy now. You cannot live in that neighbourhood or wear clothes from last season - then you won't get the promotion! You cannot try, at age 35, to save money that you'll actually have available if you need it - it has to go into retirement accounts, so any crisis today will require a loan.
With a little luck, I can increase contempt for the poor and working class in the process. After all, their debts cannot come from anything except extravagance.
Father Gregory's OP, as far as I can see, was about admitting to responsibility. (And I must add that I did not see the slightest hint of any other element.) Yet some of the turns this thread has taken are of quite another topic.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Cycling - I cycled to work for a year or so, in East London. Please would those who suggest cycling do this - in London, in the rush hour, every day for at least a few months. And then tell me that "Cycling is such a pleasure".
(Cod puts up his fin)
And I'll add that cycling in London is a damn sight better than cycling in Auckland, NZ where cyclists are but few on the roads and motorists are just about incapable of correctly judging the width of their cars.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Newman's Own - you are most welcome to come down to my local running club track and see all the kids there from the local sink estate who are learning self confidence, teamwork, friendship, a healthy lifestyle and keeping away from drugs and violence and gangs. The crappy diet industry ain't got a look in.
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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les@BALM
The Ship's Visionary
# 11237
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Posted
With plastic credit it too easy, you dont see the money so you dont quantify what you are spending. I set limits on my spending and keep a tight ship both personally and for BALM.
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il sole d'Italia mi č rimasto nel cure
Italia campioni del mondo ****
Tiggs the cat.
Posts: 1863 | From: Canada, eh! | Registered: Apr 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Newman's Own - you are most welcome to come down to my local running club track and see all the kids there from the local sink estate who are learning self confidence,
Whoa. I only ever learnt how shit I was at anything physical down on the running track? Self confidence? It shattered what I had.
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teamwork
Yes, I'll grant you that. One kid would hold me down in the showers whilst the other kicked my head in.
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friendship
Yes indeed; knocking the "weeds" around is so friendly.
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a healthy lifestyle
I'm not sure that our national sports obsession is healthy, not socially or mentally, at any rate.
quote:
and keeping away from drugs and violence and gangs. The crappy diet industry ain't got a look in.
I'd rather they'd gone for the gangs when I was a kid. The gangs were usually attacking each other instead of me.
It's not the panacea you're painting it as.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Karl I somewhat suspect your thinking back to school and enforced PE. Many of us have been there. My local track is not forced on anyone, it's just a community facilty that does a lot of good. People go there out of their own free choice. Just cos you've had some bad experiences in the past doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. How many times do I have to say in my posts I was crap at sport as a kid and hated it, but I've learnt to enjoy being fit and healthy - v different. I know kids now who are working towards stuff like the World Student Games when most of their friends are lucky if they've got a job in Macdonalds. Show a little happiness and respect for them.
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Cycling - I cycled to work for a year or so, in East London. Please would those who suggest cycling do this - in London, in the rush hour, every day for at least a few months. And then tell me that "Cycling is such a pleasure".
Cycling is such a pleasure. I did it for years, not months, and in every part of London. There's hardly a road in central London or in inner South London that I haven't cycled and I've at least visited just about everywhere else.
OK there are scary bits. Hyde Park Corner can be a hassle and southbound across Vauxhall Bridge is like being in a pinball machine. But on the whole its good fun.
Its not excercise of course, because that would be sport and sport is boring. Just a convenient mode of transport that happens to be bloody good fun.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Here in the States PBS has run a series called "Affluenza" that was very good -- hit the nail on the head about how marketers play on people's various motivations in order to make them crave and consume more goods. (And I used to be an advertising major in school, so I know from persuasion.)
Theologian Marva Dawn has also written quite eloquently about consumerism from a faith perspective.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
NP,
If advertising doesn't effect people's behaviour, why does anyone bother to advertise?
And healthier food is, almost always, more expensive.
(Xpost)
Advertising, like opinion polls, insurance sales, and pollination, works on the chaos theory. Did you know that out of 750 million spam messages sent, only one will generate a sale? A macrobiotic healthnut can watch all the Pizza Hut commercials he wants without fear that he'll be taken over by an irresistable urge to eat pizza.
Temptation exists, mind control does not. Turn off the friggin' television once in a while. Take control of your lives. Or better yet, fight as hard for governmental control over added sugar as people do for gun and drug control.
You're kinda starting to sound like a supervisor at a call center where I once worked. He claimed that if we couldn't sell a particular (useless) insurance product, it was our fault. Had nothing to do with whether the customer wanted or needed it, and never mind that we were cold-calling them at home - we should be able to sell it because we are trained in how to keep control of the conversation and blah blah blah.
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
ken - I hate you. In a loving sort of way of course. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I just think that many of those who promote cycling live in places where it is a pleasure to do. But cycling on busy congested roads, at peak hours, is not pleasant at all. It may be good and healthy, and I can appreciate that some people can enjoy it. But for me, it is awful.
Of course, these days, working 30+ miles from home, cycling is not practical. Although I am sure Ken will tell me how he cycled 50 miles into work and then home every day for several years.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
In my case, I'm not sure if it's the 17 miles or the thousand feet of climbing that most deter me
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Someone ought to test the amount of noxious fumes people breathe in while doing their healthy cycling commute in heavy-traffic areas.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Someone ought to test the amount of noxious fumes people breathe in while doing their healthy cycling commute in heavy-traffic areas.
They did measure that recently in London and - strangely - the study found that people in cars breath in more nasty stuff (particulates?) than pedestrians and cyclists outside. Which doesn't necessarily mean that the amount of polution breathed in by cyclists is negligable, of course, but it is apparently less.
The worst air quality, if I remember correctly, was breathed by people in black taxis, normal private cars came second I think. I don't really understand it, but there you go.
quote:
Originally posted by I_Am_Not_Job:
And anyway, it's not that you didn't lose weight, it's whether you gained weight, or how much more you would have gained if you hadn't done it.
Why would I have gained weight? I don't pile on pounds in the months when it's too dark and too inclement to safely cycle along isolated cross-country converted railway lines. Which, in Scotland, is about 8 months of the year. I presume that, unconciously, I increase my calorie intake upwards to compensate for the extra energy used, and vice versa in winter. Or else my body goes into 'famine' mode - as I'm pretty sure it did during the period I was getting up at 5 for gym-torture every day.
Look, it's nice for you that you've found a way of life you enjoy that incorporates exercise. Good. But just don't evangelise it to people who've tried the same thing, endlessly, and after all due consideration don't enjoy it. Otherwise the (perhaps unintended) implication is that we don't know our own minds, if we just tried harder we'd be just like you. And that implication is really quite irritating, whether it's intended or not.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
I must admit I felt very uncomfortable at a recent Christian Aid week service that was led by a mixture of overweight and obese people begging the congregation to give more money. It was more the dissonance, rather than hypocracy, that got me.
What dissonance? Surely you don't actually believe that these people wouldn't need to collect money from the congregation if they donated their own grocery money instead?
OK. How about incongrous. Big fat person stands up and says 'please feed the starving little children'. I can see the cartoon already.
I guess I'm still not seeing what's so funny about this. They're collecting money for the skinny children, not for themselves. Should only skinny people collect for the skinny and only blind people collect for the blind?
quote:
We're fat because we diet. We're fat because depleted fat cells are desperate to replenish themselves before the next "famine" comes along.
quote:
Don't diet, eat healthily in the first place. Yo-yo dieting never works. Just cabbage soup vs. normal 3 meals a day is obviously going to confuse the body's metabolism.
This is the sort of semantics the diet industry indluges in all the time. Our old eating plan was a "diet" the one they want to sell us is a "healthy lifestyle change."
I've never been on a cabbage soup sort of diet in my life. I just told you that all I did was give up sweets. I did eat three healthy meals a day. I also told you that I lost sixty pounds in one year -- that's a very safe rate of about one pound per week. I don't see how that could "confuse " my metabolism very much more than any other plan.
I'm eating the exact same things now and gaining a pound a week. It's so easy to say that something must be wrong with the plan, too big portions, too many carbs, too much fat -- but it's the exact same thing I lost on last year.
quote:
Jan.1st 2005. I gave up all sweets. Since then not so much as a piece of birthday cake or a spoon of jam has passed my lips. I also began working-out six days a week. By Jan. 1st 2006 I had lost the 60 pounds. At that point, following the same program, my body began to regain.
My body has learned to live on less calories and compensate for the extra activity. I've gained back a pound a month since then. In five years I'll have it all back; only then I'll be just as fat, while having to work-out six days a week and never eating sweets.
quote:
I'm sorry you've struggled, but there are a lot more factors to just not eating sweets and doing exercise. Yes, the body does get used to changes and so we have to change our training programmes. It makes sense, if you're fitter you have to push yourself harder to get results. The same programme for years will become increasingly less effective. Paula Radcliffe isn't doing the same training she did as a teenager, why would it be any different for anyone else. Sweets obviously aren't the only source of calories. And it's scientific fact that as we grow older our muscle mass depletes more and it's easier to put on weight. That's why experienced athletes in their 60s don't break world records, but they still go for 'good for age' results. I was a fat teenager, it took me to the age of 26 before I could run 10km faster than my dad (who by then was 64).
So what you're saying is that every year I need to cut back on my calories a little more and increase my exercise. After a few years of your plan, I would be eating about five hundred calories a day and exercising for eight hours.
Ken just informed us that we only need 30 minutes a day, three times a week and now it seems that my 45 minutes, six times a week isn't enough.
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We can't win this battle.
quote:
Agreed if you're referring to age. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be fit and healthy. My father-in-law is close to losing his foot, and thus essentially his independence, due to type II diabetes and a preference to have a touch of bread with his butter rather than a smidgen of butter on his bread, for that momentary taste, and then is miserable with diabetic depression the rest of the time. My dad is still running half marathons and is having the time of his life in his retirement despite probably being a stone heavier than he was 15 years ago. I certainly know which lifestyle I'd prefer.
I know which one I would prefer, too. What some of us are trying to say is that it isn't always a matter of preference. It's just possible your father is able to run marathons because he was blessed with good genetic material and a fast metabolism while your father-in-law has a system that doesn't handle carbohydrates very well.(It's more likely the bread than the butter that's hurting him.)
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